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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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I am very excited about this. With your CdA numbers (at 0 yaw) you can use bestbikesplit to get an estimate of drag numbers at other yaw angles. Granted these are approximate based on some more generic bike setups but more detailed equipment models are in the works. On another note how can I get this camp to come to Dallas we have a velodrome (outdoors though). There would be no problem selling out multiple days.

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [bobby11] [ In reply to ]
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No problem. It was a lot of fun and A LOT of hard work before and during and ongoing. At least we are into the fun part of it all though!



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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I'll try to get on here between clients today. And I'll try to remember everything as best as I can. Someone from the camp correct me if I'm wrong.

No one had the Split, but my work with Luke McKenzie seemed to confirm it's a fast helmet. The P09 worked on a broad range of riders - more so than most helmets. I don't think it really hurt anyone. It tied or bested the McCLaren on the few riders who tested both. Back in June/July we tested a prototype and found it faster without the visor. We also only tested it with the vent plug out, and at the speeds some of the campers were riding, it would've tested better with the plug in based on our previous testing (we didn't have a plug).

Lots of wrinkles are worse than skin, but a well-fitting tri suit made of the proper materials is very fast. I've said it before and I'll say it again...clothing is the next revolution in aero. I custom fitted tri suit would be awesome! wink, wink.

Booties are a crap shoot. Some are good...most are really bad. Only one rider tested booties (Pearl Izumi) and they worked for him.

Some riders found there is such a thing as going too low. Most riders perform better with added reach. Too many triathletes riding around with their arms perpendicular to the ground. Reach out further without losing skeletal support and you'll be faster and more comfortable.

There's so much more, but not enough time.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Aero Tidbits posted on Instagram & Facebook
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Mrcooper] [ In reply to ]
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Mrcooper wrote:
I am very excited about this. With your CdA numbers (at 0 yaw) you can use bestbikesplit to get an estimate of drag numbers at other yaw angles. Granted these are approximate based on some more generic bike setups but more detailed equipment models are in the works. On another note how can I get this camp to come to Dallas we have a velodrome (outdoors though). There would be no problem selling out multiple days.

The technology is getting there. I think pretty soon we should be able to test outdoors. AndyF will be able to give you a better idea of how close that is. He's probably sick of me bugging him about it (I think for a year now!). haha



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, I believe that is right. (paging AndyF.) We did have a case of a malfunctioning PM. Initially my cda was .27high. I'm a low watt model and go relatively fast on low watts. The numbers we were getting weren't jiving with the known data on me. After switching wheels, things started to jive.

we also used one wheel for a lot of the tests, in that case I think we might be doing an apple to apple comparison, but AndyF can speak to all of this better than I can.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [davetallo] [ In reply to ]
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I think I wore the fusion top the most during testing. As I said before, its tight but isn't a textured material so I think it provides limited improvement. My baseline was .242 and the Torhans 30 brought me down to .229 so that's when I put on the Fusion which brought me to .2252 so around 3w.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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I constantly bother Andy too. Poor guy. It can be done with the system now, but it's not ideal.

To answer another question...yes, power meter accuracy is very important. On at least two riders the numbers didn't add up to what I was seeing, and both times there were issues. One was a pm reading to high, and another was a wheel rubbing slightly on a brake pad. We're very close to having clients only using our pm's to keep the numbers consistent across the board. It does drive home how important proper pm calibration is for everyone.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Aero Tidbits posted on Instagram & Facebook
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
I constantly bother Andy too. Poor guy. It can be done with the system now, but it's not ideal.

To answer another question...yes, power meter accuracy is very important. On at least two riders the numbers didn't add up to what I was seeing, and both times there were issues. One was a pm reading to high, and another was a wheel rubbing slightly on a brake pad. We're very close to having clients only using our pm's to keep the numbers consistent across the board. It does drive home how important proper pm calibration is for everyone.

Remind me on our call for Monday about a potential solution/fail safe on this. I've noted it, but it seems like we are going to be covering a lot of ground.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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so it sounds like the McLaren not being available pretty much anywhere besides occasionally ebay might not be too big a deal once the p09 starts to roll out, If I am reading this correctly.

re vertical arms..........I tried a more stretched position, but drag went up. might have something to do with my completely compact position(no where for air to get in) I will check this again sometime
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [jeffp] [ In reply to ]
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jeffp wrote:
so it sounds like the McLaren not being available pretty much anywhere besides occasionally ebay might not be too big a deal once the p09 starts to roll out, If I am reading this correctly.

re vertical arms..........I tried a more stretched position, but drag went up. might have something to do with my completely compact position(no where for air to get in) I will check this again sometime

Yep that seemed to be the case. The stretched out position did not work me either. I had already dropped 10mm and going out another 10mm killed my neck. I was happy it wasn't faster.

It is really amazing what 10mm one way or the other will do.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [jonfl] [ In reply to ]
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I can't remember if anyone tested that with the plasma's. I didn't.
I'll skim through the plasma data and post if someone did.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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I tested faster higher but have not figured out why I never implemented that.

so my post in another thread about BP 3.0 being faster than 2.0 based on castelli's marketing hype might have some validity if they really did add texture in specific areas
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [jeffp] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah I would say so. It seems like from what has been constantly observed, texture is faster at least on the arms. That being said Jim said that the Castelli suits have always tested very well.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [jonfl] [ In reply to ]
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it was tested on a Large Plasma. For that particular rider a standard BTA tested better than the torhans 30. The BTA was < 1min faster, closer to :40 really at 200w.

But unless you ride like that rider it may test out different.

The #1 thing I would caution everyone is that these results are specific to the individual that tested. You results could be worse or better. There is no real way to know unless you test. We can make some inferences but not firm conclusions from a rider that tested to you.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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On average, how did the Giro Selector fare?
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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As a general take-away, if you were to do-your-own "Chung-ing", what would you look to test/iterate through? I'm also wondering how well a 2 state (high/low) multifactorial design of experiments would tease out maxima/minima given the nonlinear interactions between different setups (e.g. a helmet may do terrible with flat forearms, but then becomes the best when you mantis).

That said, the more variables I can eliminate, the smaller the test table gets. As it stands below, it'd be HUGE to test every combination. Obviously I'm $$ limited on what goodies I can test as well, albeit with a lot of tri-friends, I can probably muster a lot of equipment. :) When I find myself doing fits, I usually trend towards Andy Coggan's "caveman" fit suggestions. Looking to get smarter than that.

* Hands/elbows
1.) Higher/lower
2.) Further/nearer
3.) Flat vs uptilt forearms
4.) Narrow elbows vs wide

* Helmets
* BTA setup vs nothing vs ?
* Clothing

Am I missing any variables? Any that I can safely "assume" are linear in their interaction with the system?

The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Two questions...

1) Any wheel or tire tests done?

2) When are you guys doing this again? :) I want in!
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [bobby11] [ In reply to ]
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bobby11 wrote:
On average, how did the Giro Selector fare?

Pretty darn good. It was the 1st or 2nd fastest helmet on most people. I'm including the Bell Javelin since it basically the same lid. We used the shield based on Jim's recommendation.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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marcag wrote:
Thanks for starting this thread

Is your cda calculation based on what your individual power meter is measuring ? I assume so.

If so, is it safe to assume that your cda and my cda cannot be compared since one of our PMs may be measuring 10w more or less ? Or is there a way to compensate for this ?


We try as often as we can to use one of our powertaps. This ensures that we have a calibrated power meter that we know is properly calibrated. And that the drivetrain efficiency is no longer a factor.

AndyF
bike geek
Last edited by: AndyF: Jan 23, 14 14:20
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Derf] [ In reply to ]
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Derf wrote:
As a general take-away, if you were to do-your-own "Chung-ing", what would you look to test/iterate through? I'm also wondering how well a 2 state (high/low) multifactorial design of experiments would tease out maxima/minima given the nonlinear interactions between different setups (e.g. a helmet may do terrible with flat forearms, but then becomes the best when you mantis).

That said, the more variables I can eliminate, the smaller the test table gets. As it stands below, it'd be HUGE to test every combination. Obviously I'm $$ limited on what goodies I can test as well, albeit with a lot of tri-friends, I can probably muster a lot of equipment. :) When I find myself doing fits, I usually trend towards Andy Coggan's "caveman" fit suggestions. Looking to get smarter than that.

* Hands/elbows
1.) Higher/lower
2.) Further/nearer
3.) Flat vs uptilt forearms
4.) Narrow elbows vs wide

* Helmets
* BTA setup vs nothing vs ?
* Clothing

Am I missing any variables? Any that I can safely "assume" are linear in their interaction with the system?

Jim can probably give you a bit better answer than me. But get the position first then find the helmet. In other words, if the Mantis is the best with the baseline helmet, test other helmets to see if it works. The mantis is one of those that doesn't work on a lot of people, but when it does, it works very very well.

Hands level or just above the elbows.

Position, helmets, clothes. At some point you just have to decide what to test. I didn't get to test everything I wanted because I ran out of time. I think a lot of us were like that. If you are field testing maybe set aside one day for each thing. Day 1 Positions, 2 Helmet, 3 clothes. That what I would do FWIW.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Awesome. Thank you.

As you said, we work in a time-limited world, so trying to catch the biggest fish is the goal.

And big thanks for all the Q&A!

The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [CDriver] [ In reply to ]
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Chris, hope everything is going well up in the valley of the sun.

No one tested wheels because we are testing a near zero yaw. Everything does well.

Again? Ask me Tuesday. But I think given the number of emails Heath and I have gotten there is strong demand for rolling this type of aero testing out.

You have to realize this was the first time it's ever been attempted, to do something like this on this scale and do it how we did. We all need to sit down and chat.

I know, and I am pretty sure I can speak for Heath on this, and possibly Jim. If we can figure out some things, there is no reason why we can't do this again except for maybe some national teams wanting their velodrome back.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter

Last edited by: desert dude: Jan 23, 14 14:30
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [JTolandTRI] [ In reply to ]
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JTolandTRI wrote:

Putting a Torhans 30 on pretty much anything is fast...


What if there is 90-100mm from the back of the T30 to the front of your headtube? I'm on a 2011 SC 7.5 and that's as close as I can get... plus, I still have a standard Ultegra brake (haven't upgraded to TriRig yet).

Edit: did you test the T20? I know Dirk Bockel runs that and I've heard rumor its because he can't get it (the T30) flush with his headtube.
Last edited by: BrentwoodTriGuy: Jan 23, 14 14:33
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Derf] [ In reply to ]
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Derf wrote:
Awesome. Thank you.

As you said, we work in a time-limited world, so trying to catch the biggest fish is the goal.

And big thanks for all the Q&A!

Our pleasure. The big goal is letting people learn about the process and realize the individual nature of the testing. The other big one was showing that age groupers, not just pros, can and will benefit from this type of thing. Combine this with good training and coaching and you have a lethal combination.

I was talking with Jim on the first night I was there about why people don't do this more. His comment was that a bike fit and aero testing aren't made of carbon fiber. Haha! I might be paraphrasing a bit, but when you consider testing even at SDLSWT at $1000/hr or A2 at $500/hr is a relative bargain compared to a ZIPP Super 9 Carbon Clincher at $2500. The Zipp might save you 10 secs over a wheelbuilder cover, but the same money or much less in our case can potentially save you minutes. Knowledge isn't Gucci or Prada, but Carbon wheels are.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Well there's the bling factor and the part that it just takes a lot more mental and physical energy to pin down one's position/stuff rather than swiping one's credit card. Much less using minding one's P's and Q's on using the Chung/virtual elevation method in a controlled (and worse in an uncontrolled) environment.

Me? It's not an either/or! I'm working with a wired ptap, much less tunnel time or superwonderbling. :) Virtual Elevation and a stopwatch are my only way of testing things. :)

The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock
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