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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Ex-cyclist wrote:
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
Maybe I myself don't have the necessary perspective to fully understand ERO - to that I say have someone bring me out and change my mind.


Ok, Now I see where this was all going.

Exactly. When I read that I was like..."Ahhhh, now it all makes sense."
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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I am not going to degrade into a black hole of discussion. You too missed my. point. Again I believe in aero, I believe in drivetrain efficiency, I believe in searching out small gains but I have better places to look than a single wrinkle in a piece of fabric when it hasn't been determined what effect the race itself will have on the postioning of the garment in an actual race.


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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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I didn't miss your point, I just thought it was wrong.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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And that is why I asked you how many IMs you have completed. You think after 2.4 miles of swimming and 112 miles of biking the garment is going to fit in the exact way it was positioned while riding at ERO. Then take the fact that most people don't race in a new kit everytime either. I can't tell you how many TYR kits I have seen tight at the start only to be so sloppy loose at the end of a race.


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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
I can't tell you how many TYR kits I have seen tight at the start only to be so sloppy loose at the end of a race.

I'm sure 2XU suits are nice and tight at the end though....
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas, you claim to speak for all athletes because you finished an Ironman? And, you claim to speak for them more than James and Andy because they haven't? You are deigning to speak about comfortable positions and fatigue experienced based on your n=1 experiences?

If you want to measure dicks I'll be your huckleberry. But to throw out these tired logical fallacies (appeal to authority, false dichotomy) is beneath you.

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
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“You are experiencing the hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of a slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote accordingly.”
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:

No disrespect, but this is one of those things, unless you have done Ironman you can't have the proper perspective. You get the prospective by passing age groupers on the second loop of their first. You get it by going out in the middle of course and hiding in the bushes watching people when there is no crowd to lift their spirits. It is a tough sport.


None taken, Thomas. I don't know if I've "done Ironman", but I know I did an Ironman. I'll grant you there might be a difference between the two. I was also a follow coach for RAAM for 11 straight days. And I've ridden some longer distances than IM.

Oh, and I have watched a few IMs live, though I never hid in the bushes. :-) I'm pretty sure I know how people look when they finish.


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Are u suggesting there are fitters out there who can predict with perfect aerodynamic degradation how the body is going to change as their body fatigues. It isn't a question of the perfect comfortable position. Everyone experiences some level of fatigue and their position will incur changes. Some will lose so much water in their tissues that the aero kit that was tight is now flapping around.


No, I'm suggesting there are good fitters out there who ask their athletes about what happened during their races, and adapt the fit accordingly. The dialogue between good athletes and good positioning coaches is very complete, I'm sure. I know Jim Manton goes out to Kona and, yes, I can certainly imagine him hiding in some bushes to see the result of the fitting he does to make sure he's understood whatever he can.

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Again I love the idea of ERO and the wind tunnel but it is about balance. For many it makes sense but for many it does not at the current moment . Maybe I myself don't have the necessary perspective to fully understand ERO - to that I say have someone bring me out and change my mind.


Balance is almost never "all of one thing, and none of the other". Between training and aero testing, who knows, your ratio should probably be 1000:1. But just don't make one of the components completely zero.

I'll just end with this: aero testing is about understanding the compromises . After understanding them, you can decide however you want. But at least it won't be decided by not knowing what the compromises are.

AndyF
bike geek
Last edited by: AndyF: Mar 18, 14 14:22
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [JTolandTRI] [ In reply to ]
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I mention TYR kits because that is personally what sticks in my mind as the worst offender - and yes I had personal discussions with athletes and talked to them about it. And yes my 2xu kit may not be in the exact position after getting out of the swim, rolling around on the ground and having some violent wetsuit removal tactics but all in all it is tight at the beginning, middle, and end of the race. I also race a lot more than most and I am happy to be wearing them again this year.

In addition I will mention that I passed on many equipment providera and team opportunities because yes, I do think about this stuff and if
It I run the long term analyais and it is costing me success then I say thanks but no. I say this not to pump my ego, but merely to highlight the fact that I want to go fast, I want to win and I am less motivated by money or having the most logos.


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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [AndyF] [ In reply to ]
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AndyF wrote:
aero testing is about understanding the compromises . After understanding them, you can decide however you want. But at least it won't be decided by not knowing what the compromises are.

Well summarized.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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mile 20:



mile 90:



Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of a slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote accordingly.”
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [ericM40-44] [ In reply to ]
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ericM40-44 wrote:
Thomas, you claim to speak for all athletes because you finished an Ironman? And, you claim to speak for them more than James and Andy because they haven't? You are deigning to speak about comfortable positions and fatigue experienced based on your n=1 experiences?

If you want to measure dicks I'll be your huckleberry. But to throw out these tired logical fallacies (appeal to authority, false dichotomy) is beneath you.

First off I don't think I claim to speak for all athletes. Point to where I am doing that so I can learn and not make the same mistake.

I am single athlete with a single perspective. Ultimately diversity is often rewarded when it comes to solving problems. I welcome opinions and feedback but I do try to think about things. Anyone that has personally raced with me knows I talk a lot on course. I ask a lot of questioms and I also can be found racking my bike late so I can see just how seriousy my competitors are about going fast on the bike. Sure everything gained aggregates into my perspective so take it for what it is worth. I don't mean to represent an entire population. And I was asking so I gain a better perspective and understanding of others in the conversations. It is not intended to be an ego measure, but it is pretty difficult to craft a response without at least trying to understand where they are coming from.


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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [ericM40-44] [ In reply to ]
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ericM40-44 wrote:
mile 20:



mile 90:


What point are you trying to make? You honestly think we can tell the subtle drag of the suit from a picture? Do you also have the one where Kevin Taddonios suit busted open at Roth?

Regardless this is not my point. Working on aero is fine, but it is about balance. Again this started with a single wrinkle.

Off topic, how long did that suit take to put in T1. If you knew you were the last person to make the train in swim out of pro race and putting on suit meant you missed the train on the bike would you still go with it.?


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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
I don't think I claim to speak for all athletes. Point to where I am doing that so I can learn and not make the same mistake.

here

Thomas Gerlach wrote:
Yes but Ironman is a different beast, I can assure you nobody at Ironman St George 2012 was riding the same position at mile 5 as they were at 50 as they were at 100.

here

Thomas Gerlach wrote:
Maybe the super fast kit is tight and snug at mile 10, but after a long day of battle the fabric has bunched up in such a way that the 2 watts it saved u over the first 10 miles and was neutral from 10 to 60 is now costing you 3 watts at 60 - 112

here

Thomas Gerlach wrote:
No disrespect, but this is one of those things, unless you have done Ironman you can't have the proper perspective.

here

Thomas Gerlach wrote:
Everyone experiences some level of fatigue and their position will incur changes.

here

Thomas Gerlach wrote:
How so? How many IMs to your name have you finished?

here

Thomas Gerlach wrote:
- and yes I had personal discussions with athletes and talked to them about it.

to name a few

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of a slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote accordingly.”
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [ericM40-44] [ In reply to ]
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ericM40-44 wrote:
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
I don't think I claim to speak for all athletes. Point to where I am doing that so I can learn and not make the same mistake.

here

Thomas Gerlach wrote:
Yes but Ironman is a different beast, I can assure you nobody at Ironman St George 2012 was riding the same position at mile 5 as they were at 50 as they were at 100.

here

Thomas Gerlach wrote:
Maybe the super fast kit is tight and snug at mile 10, but after a long day of battle the fabric has bunched up in such a way that the 2 watts it saved u over the first 10 miles and was neutral from 10 to 60 is now costing you 3 watts at 60 - 112

here

Thomas Gerlach wrote:
No disrespect, but this is one of those things, unless you have done Ironman you can't have the proper perspective.

here

Thomas Gerlach wrote:
Everyone experiences some level of fatigue and their position will incur changes.

here

Thomas Gerlach wrote:
How so? How many IMs to your name have you finished?

here

Thomas Gerlach wrote:
- and yes I had personal discussions with athletes and talked to them about it.

to name a few

Well thank you for that feedback. I truly appreciate it. You can replace every generalizarion there with "I" instead.


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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas, here is my take on this. I have finished an Ironman and I have made decisions that were detrimental to my performance. I know sitting up to stretch my back is not aerodynamic, I know exchanging bottles and grabbing food is not ideal. But, when it is time to push I want to make sure I move to the best of my ability. Since I do not have a world class engine, I have to pay attention to the little things as well as train my ass off. If, clothing can save me 5-10 watts, getting a more aerodynamic front brake saves me 5 watts, a front bottle configuration, wheels, helmet, hand position, proper fit.....It adds up for me. While, I completely understand what you are saying....Training is what moves you. But, being results oriented, I have to pay attention to the little things because, for me it does add up. Me, I am hoping to get into the next aero camp since it will be close and hopefully feasible, because it matters for me.

Steve
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Racing Yoda] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting picture for aero discussion.



Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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we've talked about this, here on ST. Not sure this is current though.

sciguy wrote:
Interesting picture for aero discussion.


Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of a slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote accordingly.”
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:

Well thank you for that feedback. I truly appreciate it.

you're welcome, and truly. and now that the picture of your likely not so aero position has been dug up, recall the discussion we had about it a while back with regard to suggestions for improvement with this perspective: the difference between you and me is that while I can pick every nit and come pretty close to your 2013 Kona bike split on only 206 watts, I'll never have your engine, and thus never have your potential. Which is why some of us post, because we, for whatever reason, want to see you or us or others like you and us do well, get better.

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of a slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote accordingly.”
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
No that is not what I am saying. This is a single wrinkle I am talking about. Aero matters, but u have to have balance.

We were never talking about a "single" wrinkle. We were talking about multiple wrinkles as a way to judge fit. Someone came through and said does worrying about a few wrinkles make a difference. They do. I've seen it, I've seen the data and I witnessed the tests. In fact I was one of the test subjects. Any garment is going to have a few wrinkles it is the severity and the fit that makes the difference. Maybe 10-20 watts doesn't mean that much to you. It does to me and to a lot of other people as well. Hence that is why we've had requests to have another camp in with Alphamantis and ERO (working on it!, we just need track time) with most of the campers wanting to return and also why we've had a lot of interest in the upcoming one we have planned with A2 in NC.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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I look forward to check it out and report on it. Hopefully I won't be otherwise engaged.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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Love to have you there this time! We'll be there 3 days, so hopefully one of those will work out for your schedule. June 12-14



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Hmm. You have to balance? But don't you even go as far as to 1. Purchase a chain from friction facts and 2. Swap to that chain for only races? But spending a few hundred dollars on a solid bike fit and aero testing is unbalanced? From the looks of it, someone might be able to benefit from exactly that. As long as there's no wrinkles!!

It soooounds like someone wants a free pass to ERO. Not saying its you though. Just that it seems someone does.

"One Line Robert"
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [ericM40-44] [ In reply to ]
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Pretty current, if Nov 2013 looks like this:


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