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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [AaronT] [ In reply to ]
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After the P09, it probably tested as the most consistent fast helmet for a wide range of people. EDIT: I'd have to go through all the data to make sure of that, bet I'd bet $10 and a beer that that statement is correct.

When Heath and I were at A2 this past summer we chatted with those guys. They said the A2 was a solid choice for the majority of the people they test, almost always in the top 2-3 helmets. We also found that to be true at the velodrome. But again, many aero helmets that were really good on 2,3,5 people were really bad on 1 or 2.

I know if I run across an A2 that fits, even though it's the 2nd fastest helmet for me and I now own the fastest, I'll probably scoop it up just in case.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Last edited by: desert dude: Jan 23, 14 20:56
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
You control for that by hardening up and not letting your form slip. Observe - Tony Martin, and Keinle, and Rapp

cerebis wrote:
...
What I am thinking about mostly is changes in posture over long efforts; form frequency of head-dipping to fatigue related postural changes.

Yes that is ultimately good advice but Tony, for all his quadricep might, only rides for the better part of an hour. Limited duration being part of what makes ITT and TTT such a strict discipline. I am thinking of, say, AG triathletes interested in optimising their bike leg and must be a large component of the potential market. Its absolutely great that each person can obtain objective information from the camp. I was just curious if participants think about how they actual ride in races vs what they do when getting their photo taken -- so to speak. :-)

This thought was just spawned from the interest in fast helmets and how often some people I see training dip their heads.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [cerebis] [ In reply to ]
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cerebis wrote:
jackmott wrote:
You control for that by hardening up and not letting your form slip. Observe - Tony Martin, and Keinle, and Rapp

cerebis wrote:
...
What I am thinking about mostly is changes in posture over long efforts; form frequency of head-dipping to fatigue related postural changes.


Yes that is ultimately good advice but Tony, for all his quadricep might, only rides for the better part of an hour. Limited duration being part of what makes ITT and TTT such a strict discipline. I am thinking of, say, AG triathletes interested in optimising their bike leg and must be a large component of the potential market. Its absolutely great that each person can obtain objective information from the camp. I was just curious if participants think about how they actual ride in races vs what they do when getting their photo taken -- so to speak. :-)

This thought was just spawned from the interest in fast helmets and how often some people I see training dip their heads.

I am not sure where you are trying to go with this? Naturally everyone will be fatigued after 112 miles. For the testing to be accurate we need to control as many variables as possible. I don't know how you would perform a test where each run is let's say 2 hrs. I did about 10 runs. At 2 hrs per run I need to quite my day job and setup camp at the velodrome :-). I am not sure what the alternative is.

I feel I can hold my second fastest position for the majority of a 112 mile ride. For sure I can hold it for 56. My fastest position is when I shrug and I know that is not sustainable. Even if I could not hold my second fastest position for the full length of the bike leg what we learned will still be beneficial. As long as I am holding the position that tested well I am benefiting. Lets say at some point I can't hold the position any more that does not mean that everything is lost.



http://www.frostyjunction.com/
https://twitter.com/FrostyJunction
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry if you already answered this but was the P-09 generally faster than the Air Attack even for the head down guys?
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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RChung wrote:
relentless wrote:
a definite shocker to all.


I love these kinds of stories. The eye is a poor wind tunnel.

I know that none of this information is universal, but it would be pretty cool if there was a ratio of elbow pad width to shoulder/hip width that could be collected to see if there is an optimal number.

Kiwami Tri
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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A couple of slightly off-topic takeaways...
1. It was great to put faces to Slowtwitch names - made some new friends, and had a lot of fun.
2. I honestly think that, when possible, pro triathletes should not seek helmet sponsorship, but instead figure out their best helmet and then sell the space for advertising. There's at least one big name pro doing this for 2014, and I know it's far more lucrative for her. Not my idea, but it's a good one.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Aero Tidbits posted on Instagram & Facebook
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [AKCrafty] [ In reply to ]
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I think you hit the issue on elbow width. A number of articles discuss this. Elbows wider with bigger guys to allow air be deflected around hips and legs.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [relentless] [ In reply to ]
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relentless wrote:
it did not test well on most. In fact it added drag even if it wore pretty wrinkle free and tight.

I got the exact same result when I tested it at Faster wind tunnel after Ironman Arizona. I would still consider it on a cold day as it has probably less penalty compare to adding a jacket or something + you can swim with it so quicker T1 possible... but I will never wear it again on a warm day... what a mistake I made at Ironman AZ...
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [jonfl] [ In reply to ]
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jonfl wrote:
Hmmmm, interesting. I thought the T30 would be good to go on virtually any frame as long as it was flush to the frame or at least very, very close. I didn't think about the rider at all. This thread is really beneficial, thank you to all who participated

There was a lot going on in his reply to you.

Bottles on the frame: results varied based on rider. For one ride a round bottle on the downtube barely moved the needle for another on the same type of frame, it was negative.

Torhans 30: This bottle did very well on bayonet style frame and not as well or worse than BTA bottles on rounder head tubes. I would say a big majority of the reason why is that we could not get the bottle close enough to the headtube.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Norsedude] [ In reply to ]
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Norsedude wrote:
Sorry if you already answered this but was the P-09 generally faster than the Air Attack even for the head down guys?

The only time the Air Attack MIGHT be faster is if you are riding so head down you can't see. In other words looking at your down tube the whole time. The air attack is an aero road helmet and not an aero TT or Tri helmet. By Giro's own marketing it is 9-12 watts slower than the selector and about that much more over a very vented road helmet. That has been shown to be accurate in testing.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Pity the P09 isnt available here in aus. I sent an email to the local LG distributor and they replied:
This helmet is currently still under development. We met with Garneau at the TDU to get further updates on this helmet. There have been further improvements from the P09 helmets that were unveiled at the Hawaiian Ironman last year and as such, the helmet has not yet gone into production. We are planning on having the P09 helmet as part of the Australian collection if it meets all the passes all the Australian Certification requirements.

At this stage we do not have a confirmed delivery time for the P09, however I would not expect it to be available any earlier than November. Putting a helmet through Australian Certification can take many months before the helmets are given the green light for Australian delivery.
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Post deleted by jeffp [ In reply to ]
Last edited by: jeffp: Jan 24, 14 15:29
Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [FrostyJ] [ In reply to ]
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FrostyJ wrote:
cerebis wrote:
jackmott wrote:
You control for that by hardening up and not letting your form slip. Observe - Tony Martin, and Keinle, and Rapp

cerebis wrote:
...
What I am thinking about mostly is changes in posture over long efforts; form frequency of head-dipping to fatigue related postural changes.


Yes that is ultimately good advice but Tony, for all his quadricep might, only rides for the better part of an hour. Limited duration being part of what makes ITT and TTT such a strict discipline. I am thinking of, say, AG triathletes interested in optimising their bike leg and must be a large component of the potential market. Its absolutely great that each person can obtain objective information from the camp. I was just curious if participants think about how they actual ride in races vs what they do when getting their photo taken -- so to speak. :-)

This thought was just spawned from the interest in fast helmets and how often some people I see training dip their heads.


I am not sure where you are trying to go with this? Naturally everyone will be fatigued after 112 miles. For the testing to be accurate we need to control as many variables as possible. I don't know how you would perform a test where each run is let's say 2 hrs. I did about 10 runs. At 2 hrs per run I need to quite my day job and setup camp at the velodrome :-). I am not sure what the alternative is.

I feel I can hold my second fastest position for the majority of a 112 mile ride. For sure I can hold it for 56. My fastest position is when I shrug and I know that is not sustainable. Even if I could not hold my second fastest position for the full length of the bike leg what we learned will still be beneficial. As long as I am holding the position that tested well I am benefiting. Lets say at some point I can't hold the position any more that does not mean that everything is lost.

One of the coolest parts of the new Specialized tunnel is that they CAN run for as much time as they want. So if an athlete needs to test how sustainable a position is, they can.

Tangential, but sweet nonetheless
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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It sounds like the T30 would be a good route if you were able to get it flush with the head tube. That is my plan, if its flush, I'm using it, but if not, BTA it is.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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That is pretty cool. The only issue is getting in it. I guess if you are Specialized sponsored athlete it is not that tough. Most of us are going to have to use the alternatives.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Very true, not a good option for the 99%ers
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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HEy Jim and everyone else! I am curious what hydration setups you tested. Mainly in front hydration. I know that the the Torhans 30 is dependent on how close you can fit it to the headtube, but how does it compare to something like the new Xlab System.

Also, did anyone test the new castelli top?
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Very interested in finding out more about the results for a round bottle on the down tube. What was the worst result observed for this scenario. I have read that a round bottle on the down tube costs something like 1 s/km and that an aero bottle in the same position cuts that in half. Obviously this number would vary based upon design of the frame (e.g., the newer Cervelo frames are designed to help shield a bottle on the down tube) as well as rider position. If the 1 s/km number is based upon testing a bike with no rider on it, then it would seem logical to expect this number to decrease with a rider due to the rider's legs shielding the bottle.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Wow, I'm just blown away by the response this thread has gotten.

As Heath and Brian have mentioned, this was first of its kind for aero field testing. Our aim is to bring aerodynamics to the 99%. Aero testing is more accessible to the AGer now than ever before. We are seeing people improve their times significantly after just one session.

And, contrary to what a lot of people imagine, it works for fast and slow riders. It's certainly not just for pros anymore

What Heath and Brian have done is simply to have a party where everyone just gets faster. A cool idea, and one that we're very happy about.

AndyF
bike geek
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Scott_B] [ In reply to ]
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The data we have would be specific to the bikes they were on. I doubt we had enough bikes, especially since the Scott Plasma (n=4) and Speed Concept (n=2) were just over 50% of the bikes there, to draw conclusions that a round bottle is neutral on Bike brand C or Bike brand B.

Also we saw different things happen on the smaller frames vs larger frames. It could be and I don't have enough testing time or data, but it could be that as you scale up in frame size the bottles have a different effect bc they don't fill in as much of the gap between the BB/Down tube/seat tube junction.

We crossed off a lot of questions during testing. But the testing generated as many new questions as it answered for many of us. We are now into the upper low low hanging fruit vs just picking clean the low hanging fruit.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [zachboring] [ In reply to ]
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zachboring wrote:
HEy Jim and everyone else! I am curious what hydration setups you tested. Mainly in front hydration. I know that the the Torhans 30 is dependent on how close you can fit it to the headtube, but how does it compare to something like the new Xlab System.

Also, did anyone test the new castelli top?

Different people tested the X-lab, Speedfill A2. Torhans, Profile aerodrink and standard BTA

As with everything it varied across the board. The Xlab worked well for several people but was slower than a standard BTA for me and one other person. The Torhans worked very well as long as you could get it close enough to the headtube. The speedfill, while a cool design really has a lot of stuff sticking up off of it with the fill cap and straw. Due to that it was not horrible, but never was the fastest option.

With hydration you aren't trying to make gains you are trying not to lose them. So ideally you want whatever you put on your bike to be neutral.

No one had the Castelli speedtop. It would have been interesting to see if it lived up to the hype.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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I cannot believe nobody asked this question yet. Cost?
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [zachboring] [ In reply to ]
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Replying to a few questions at once - yours first:

I know this gets old, but it's very athlete dependent. The campers can chime with their individual results, but the Torpedo works on a broad range of riders and, unless I'm mistaken, was the best overall bta setup - some found a regular bottle faster, others the whole system. Campers, am I wrong that no matter what the BTA bottle, it was an XLab mount? For hydration, it's more than just aerodynamics (gasp!), which is why I like the Torpedo even more as a system with it's adjustability and ease of use. Love the computer mount up front for both visibility and because it hides behind your hands. There was one test with a computer mounted on top of the bottle and that wasn't a good performer. Of course, that all depends on how high the bottle is sitting above the extensions, too. In other words, if you're going to have a setup like that, you should work on getting that bottle low so the computer isn't sticking up above your arms.

Surprisingly, no one brought a Castelli T-1.

Downtube bottle placement is not only dependent on the frame, but also the rider. Very difficult to predict.

Andy, it's even more true now than ever before that speed doesn't matter for anyone who wants to take advantage of aero testing - heck Desert Dude's power meter has been lying to him for who knows how long, so he's much slower than he thought! :-)

Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Aero Tidbits posted on Instagram & Facebook
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [AndyF] [ In reply to ]
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AndyF wrote:
Wow, I'm just blown away by the response this thread has gotten.

As Heath and Brian have mentioned, this was first of its kind for aero field testing. Our aim is to bring aerodynamics to the 99%. Aero testing is more accessible to the AGer now than ever before. We are seeing people improve their times significantly after just one session.

And, contrary to what a lot of people imagine, it works for fast and slow riders. It's certainly not just for pros anymore

What Heath and Brian have done is simply to have a party where everyone just gets faster. A cool idea, and one that we're very happy about.

With the long hours and jet-lag my head definitely felt like we had a big party. The good part is I remember everything after this party!



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
Replying to a few questions at once - yours first:

I know this gets old, but it's very athlete dependent. The campers can chime with their individual results, but the Torpedo works on a broad range of riders and, unless I'm mistaken, was the best overall bta setup - some found a regular bottle faster, others the whole system. Campers, am I wrong that no matter what the BTA bottle, it was an XLab mount? For hydration, it's more than just aerodynamics (gasp!), which is why I like the Torpedo even more as a system with it's adjustability and ease of use. Love the computer mount up front for both visibility and because it hides behind your hands. There was one test with a computer mounted on top of the bottle and that wasn't a good performer. Of course, that all depends on how high the bottle is sitting above the extensions, too. In other words, if you're going to have a setup like that, you should work on getting that bottle low so the computer isn't sticking up above your arms.

Surprisingly, no one brought a Castelli T-1.

Downtube bottle placement is not only dependent on the frame, but also the rider. Very difficult to predict.

Andy, it's even more true now than ever before that speed doesn't matter for anyone who wants to take advantage of aero testing - heck Desert Dude's power meter has been lying to him for who knows how long, so he's much slower than he thought! :-)

A lot of people used the X-lab setup. I actually had my own cage ziptied to the armrests and didn't use the X-lab. I think you can be safe and do that, unless you just really want to use the x-lab mount. I think we may have used electrical tape to attach different bottles for one person. It is kind of blurring together right now.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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