There are a hell of a lot of dickheads who do stuff like this in the triathlon world.You can either "out him" here on ST and let the lynch mob shame him publicly or you can let it go...


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Not sure if it is "cheating" , but it is definitely wrong and a serious infraction. If you know for a fact he is encouraging others to do the same, this should be nipped in the bud and I know what I would do w/o hesitation.

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Barry Dmitruk
2017: Florida 70.3 (done); Mont Tremblant 70.3 & Ironman

Well, it is cheating but I wouldn't turn him in. Has he done an IM before? Did the guy that ran with his bib have a good time or was he MOP or BOP? Obviously if the original purchaser has never done an IM before, he is seriously devauling the acheivement by having his name on record as completing a race that he did not enter. If original bib holder has done an IM before and the guy that ran in his place ran a slower time, there is less of a foul, but it still isn't right.

If the person that ran in his place did really well, it's a serious, serious foul but still don't rat them out. Someone else will do that for you eventually. Hell, anyone that looks him will look for event photos and see another person. They will be caught eventually.

I would not rat him out as the only thing lower than a cheat is a rat. Maybe you should just tell them how you feel and leave it at that.

500K IM finisher was in Florida. I was there catching when he came in. What scandal are you referring to?

This isn't about calling him out. This is about what you consider "cheating". Anyway, didn't give enough information to figure out who it is, I was careful to be generic in my description.

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"Though she be but little, she is fierce" ~Shakespeare | Powered by HD Coaching | 2014 Wattie Ink Triathlon Team | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter

Life is too short. She should let it go!

 
Well, it is cheating but I wouldn't turn him in. Has he done an IM before? Did the guy that ran with his bib have a good time or was he MOP or BOP? Obviously if the original purchaser has never done an IM before, he is seriously devauling the acheivement by having his name on record as completing a race that he did not enter. If original bib holder has done and IM before and the guy that ran in his place ran a slower time, there is less of a foul, but it still isn't right.

If the person that ran in his place did really well, it's a serious, serious foul but still don't rat them out. Someone else will do that for you eventually.

I would not rat him out as the only thing lower than a cheat is a rat. Maybe you should just tell them how you feel and leave it at that.

attitude like this allowed lance to win 7 TdF...really poor showing on your part mate

You know how I feel about this. Ignore the idiot who says outing this behavior is worse then the cheating. Maybe he mixed those up but sadly I doubt it. From what I've seen WTC doesn't do much in these kind of situations so it's up to the tri community to police this behavior. Whatever form that takes.

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I don't think that I would call it cheating but you aren't supposed to do it.

I thought someone is supposed to be in the race wearing that bib number and someone was. However, a lot of people really don't like this.

I have never done this but I did pass off my bib to my brother for a half marathon. We are both very similar in run times so to me nothing really changed. I might have run the same time as him.

So anyway, cheating? I don't really think so. But it is against the rules. (That makes more sense in my mind than it does written down...)

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

We all know you're quite good at "letting it go" when it comes to cheating.

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It's only cheating if the original purchaser had 1) never done an IM, 2) the pinch hitter is a better athlete.

If the original purchaser is faster than the pinch hitter, it's just unethical and low class but not really cheating because he did not gain anything.

Definately cheating.

As mentioned your options are:

Let it go.


Turn him without a public outing.

Turn him in with a public outing.

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Well it is against the rules in WTC events so it is the wrong thing to do.As for cheating,I'd say no but it is a major infraction of the rules.I tell him that he is an asshole and I'd do it in front of his mates but that is just me.


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KyraMorgan wrote:

PLEASE DO NOT TURN THIS INTO A LANCE THREAD!!!

haole wrote:

attitude like this allowed lance to win 7 TdF...really poor showing on your part mate

Good work.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

One of the greatest threads ever on Slowtwitch: IM FL Cheater

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Yes, the guy who raced with the Bib has done a total of 4 IM since 2010. I have the name of the original purchaser and I will check to see if he's done an IM, I believe he has. I was told he has money and just registers for IM events and if he doesn't feel like racing he has someone else race in his bib.

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"Though she be but little, she is fierce" ~Shakespeare | Powered by HD Coaching | 2014 Wattie Ink Triathlon Team | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter

now...im counting down for this to happen

I see what's going on here... He's trying to get to Kona using the 12 IM finishes rule.

Now THAT is cheating.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Why not confront the gentleman if this bothers you so much?

Oh good, here it comes. You're right, I'm bad, you're good. Congratulations...here is the World's smallest trophy _{}_

I have a problem that so many races don't allow you to transfer your race entry to someone else even when given plenty of notice. A person paid for a slot in the race, I think someone should be able to race in that slot even if it is not the original person who signed up. It is an entry in a computer, not hard to change to make. Charge a "nominal" transfer fee since it does require some effort (in WTC's case nominal would probably be $100...but so be it). I totally understand the no refund policy, but just don't get not being able to transfer your entry to someone else. I'm also not an RD so I could be completely missing something, maybe wave sizes changing, but it just don't seem like it would change that much. I look forward to seeing others opinions.

So is it breaking the rules,hell yeah. Is that okay because I think the rule is stupid? No...but I also don't really care if someone does it as long as they don't take away an award or qualification from someone else. Now if we are talking about banditing a race...now THAT pisses me off because it puts too many people out on a course, they are taking advantage of closures and permits that entered people had to pay for, and they generally take advantage of the race support.

I guess I equate this to making a turn on a red light when no one else is at the intersection and the light won't change. It is against the rules but it isn't hurting anyone, also nothing to brag about doing.

Ahhhh the girl who cut the swim and run course at IMFL 3 weeks ago, this scandal!
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=50;

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"Though she be but little, she is fierce" ~Shakespeare | Powered by HD Coaching | 2014 Wattie Ink Triathlon Team | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter

X 2.

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Barry Dmitruk
2017: Florida 70.3 (done); Mont Tremblant 70.3 & Ironman

If you have to start rationalizing it, it's cheating (I know that you said it's cheating, but I'm referring more to your explanation).

I think WTC is also insane to have the policy they do... but it's their event. If you don't want to follow it, don't. That's not at all negotiable (despite the argument of some clown on here recently who said otherwise).

Seeing as it's a dude and not a girl, no reason Dan will have a problem with you outting him... (PINK PINK PINK).

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@adamwfurlong

I think the bigger crime is being a MOP Ironman on race day who suddenly turns into an "I am such a studly biker" athlete in the coffee shop when he gets home after the race...

Out the fucker for being beaten by a bunch of girls..

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Oh he knows. I saw him this weekend. Had breakfast with him on Friday morning. He just sent me a text asking why I hate him so much. Regardless of what anyone thinks, it has nothing to do with hate.

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"Though she be but little, she is fierce" ~Shakespeare | Powered by HD Coaching | 2014 Wattie Ink Triathlon Team | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter

Text him back and explain how you feel. See what he says and share with us. I'm very curious.

I would out the guy that is selling his bibs because he is trying to take advantage of the IM Legacy program.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

^^This^^

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It may or may not be cheating but there is a very valid reason that it is against the rules. If the unofficial racer happened to get hurt during the event, the events insurance would not cover him as he was not an official participant. In the past there has been people that have then sued the race directors beacuse of their injury. This could lead to increased difficulty in races aquiring insurance, therefore higher costs and possibly races being cancelled.

Cheating. The rules are the rules. If people don't like the policies they don't have to enter the event. Period. The rules are clear when you hit that "Register" button.

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Fraser Bicycle | First Endurance

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Twitch law? As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving LA approaches 1.

Bringing up He Who Shall Not Be Named ought to result in immediate losing of whatever argument is taking place, and locking of the topic.

I'm looking right now to see how many IM's this guy has done....hold tight.

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"Though she be but little, she is fierce" ~Shakespeare | Powered by HD Coaching | 2014 Wattie Ink Triathlon Team | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter

KyraMorgan wrote:
Oh he knows. I saw him this weekend. Had breakfast with him on Friday morning. He just sent me a text asking why I hate him so much. Regardless of what anyone thinks, it has nothing to do with hate.

To which BLeP replied:
I would out the guy that is selling his bibs because he is trying to take advantage of the IM Legacy program.

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And I would echo the "this" comment as well.

To those saying "it's not fair WTC requires signups a year in advance" blah blah blah, well...they do, and the rules expressly prohibit transferring. Yes, it is unfortunate and perhaps "unfair", but they be the rules. Decide in advance to follow them, or don't sign up, period.

Several shades of cheating going on, so yes I agree with the OP that you could define this as such.

My $0.02 worth. It is cheating because:

• If he hurts himself somehow during the race, he has no insurance coverage for medical bills (even thought secondary) or liability through WTC and USAT because he didn't go through registration and signup. That can be a lifelong sentence.
• If he hurts himself somehow during the race, his family has no insurance nor recourse to protect themselves against medical bills and liability.
• If he hurts someone else during the race, his potential victums have no insurance overage for medical bills (even thought secondary) or liability through WTC and USAT because he didn't go through registration and signup. That can be a lifelong sentence for his victum.
• If he hurts someone else during the race, his potential victums' family have no insurance overage nor recourse to protect themselves against medical bills and liability.
• If any of those things above happen, WTC and USAT face potential lawsuits, increased costs, and possibly huge settlements
• And then there's the scenario where someone hurts him......

Yeah, it's cheating. Cheating himself, his family, and all the other triathletes, triathlete families, spectators, and volunteers. And why? To save $600?

They are both cheats. Not only that they sound like douches and I would find some new friends to train with.

I personally think that if I were in your shoes, I'd be considering myself incredibly lucky that the "cheating" example is what bothers me instead of searching for clean water to drink, hoping I don't freeze at night or am killed before morning. On the scale of things to be concerned with in life, your example wouldn't even figure into my mind. AND I don't consider it cheating and really could not care what people do with their sporting lives. All you can control is yourself.

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https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit

I think it is cheating, and don't think either guy should get a pass on this.

This is the long winded form of #firstworldproblems

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

I don't train with them......they live in NorCal... I live in SoCal. Yes, both actions are questionable which I should have made clear in my original post.

I'm not too sure if the two involved are even really friends, this transaction was facilitated by their tri club president and she should have known better. She also raced this weekend.

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"Though she be but little, she is fierce" ~Shakespeare | Powered by HD Coaching | 2014 Wattie Ink Triathlon Team | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter

guilty as charged. :) Somewhat raw to me today as I have 2 kids violently ill from tainted water.

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https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit

In all actuality, WTC does not require you to sign up a year in advance. It is the law of supply and demand that requires you to sign up a year in advance (for some races).

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

Yes, I'm rolling my eyeballs right about now.

Breaking the rules of the race is cheating. They broke the rules as stated by the race organizer. Ask an RD of a race and they will tell you it is a DQ.

As to what to do about it? Notify the race director and then let it go. People may see that is just the massive monster that is WTC but small races have the same issues and the liability problems could get ugly. If they had the wrong name on the bib there could be medical implications. Yadda yadda.

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Jen

"In order to keep a true perspective on one's importance, everyone should have a dog that worships him and a cat that will ignore him." - Dereke Bruce

While I think it would be nice to be able to transfer registrations... with races selling out in 40 seconds this would create a black market in an instance.

If the WTC allowed transfers people would volunteer just to get the registration, then sell it for 2 or 3 or .... times the money.

Most likely the closer to the race the more expenisve the registration would become, so someone who got a mechanical DNF at IMFL might pay out the nose to race IMAZ.

I got a water filter in my ruck.

ECWCS - good for an arctic expedition

I got guns.

So no, those things you mentioned don't figure in my mind. :p

But I get your drift. People in the western world complain about trivial things. The whiners should be drafted into Peace Corp and sent to xxxxstan to help remote villages. That will open their eyes.

But! I don't think that's the case here though. We are discussing a sporting event where cheating is not merely frowned upon but outright banned. We can't have cheating, and it is a legit issue to gripe about.

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Ah,so this is really a turf war...Well then get your shivs out and get to it..

www.youtube.com/watch?v=exGJsv6ZNlo

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Bingo. If you don't want to sign up a year in advance, don't do IM AZ or FL!!! Go do IM Coeur d'Alene (screw whoever named that town... I need to look up the spelling every damn time!) or Rev 3 Full, or any number of A-type races that usually don't sell out.

While I think it would be nice to be able to transfer registrations... with races selling out in 40 seconds this would create a black market in an instance.

There could be a way to circumvent that process, in other words, WTC could create and sanction their own transfer process, and then and only then would a transfer be authorized. Black market now nonexistent.

Your logical thinking is not welcome here on Slowtwitch.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Curious if they were both in the same age group? I'll get the rope, be back in a minute!

^^^^^^^^^^^^This ^^^^^^^^^^
(well mostly.)

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I have seen this happen 3-4 times this year at WTC events, some did it not knowing it was illegal and others did it any way.

Penalty starts at 1 year ban....

My suggestion would be to send an email with the bib number in question and we can go from there, send it to timing@ironman.com and this will be forwarded to the right party at WTC and USAT.
With the photos out online now this is quite difficult to do without getting caught...

,
Now that is an excellent point. Id definitely tell him if he does it again you'll out him. At that point people are getting hurt. Otherwise you have better things to do than worry about a douchebag.

I went through the same thing when I came across a similar thread that happened at Augusta this year. I was ready to out the person but decided that with all the drama already caused locally that it was no use. Fast forward to today and I now know that the WTC didn't do anything about it. The group he was with is possibly dropping him. and the whole thing pretty much took care of itself, locally. He took credit for the race as well and bragged about his PR. That didn't sit well with a lot of people.

You have to decide for yourself what you think is best. I'm new to ST so I also was not ready to get on here and stir up a witch hunt. I hate it and I think it's cheating. I had never even thought about people abusing it to get into the legacy program. That makes me even more sick. But in the end for me, I had to rise above. Outing them would have caused me more grief than it was worth. Karma won this round luckily.

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Wattie Ink Elite Team 2013/ Base Performance Ambassador 2011-Current

Murphys Law did IMAZ???

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I don't care one way or the other, and if I knew and liked both parties, I wouldn't say anything, but I certainly wouldn't fault or look down upon anyone that did.

My question is, I know transferring a bib is easy, but how did they transfer the wristband?

No, 40-44 and 45-49.

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"Though she be but little, she is fierce" ~Shakespeare | Powered by HD Coaching | 2014 Wattie Ink Triathlon Team | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter

People print money! How hard would it be to fake a wristband? One could pry it open, or cut it, and glue it back together. No one would notice, or say anything if they noticed. Or find the supplier and buy some wristbands in different colors.

Not really. Party A (who registered) has to agree to transfer to Party B. WTC charges $X to transfer (most likely the registration cost plus a fee, say $100 to $200). Party B has to pay Party A for the registration and the transfer. Who is to say that the agreement between party A and B isn't Registration Cost + Transfer Cost + another $200? But then WTC gets more money so what do they care?

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Unless the transfer was blind there would always be the chance for you to do an out of process cash exchange.

Then again I'm quite certain that bib sales happen today, I've seen offers / requests for bibs to smaller races and we know someone podiumed at a Dallas marathon last year on a borrowed bib. So maybe with a sanctioned system it would be reduced.... maybe not.

I need to make sure to come over on this side more often and stop spending so much time in the Lavendar Room, when you guys get in an uproar it is actually fun, we just keep telling each other we are idiots.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

being that the number on my wristband was checked numerous times during IMFLA (bike pick up and special needs bag pick up) I think forging a wristband would be pretty complicated (assuming they have similar processes at IMAZ). Unless they just got a similar color wristband to walk through the starting corral on race morning, but the original athlete did everything else with the correct wristband.

Again, there are alot of ways it can be done, I was curious how it was done, not really how it could be done.

So whats your point? we do it over here also but mostly call other people idiots :0) just a technicality.

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It should be a blind process, as some other fairly large races have in place. Have a wait list, and if someone wants to pull out during some designated time period before the race, their entry goes back to the wait list, where it is then re-filled from said list.

Any other way and yes, for certain, there will be chances of some gouging/auctioning/black marketing of transfers, even with a "sanctioned" process.

killing babies is bad too. This is a tri website with tri questions.

[While I think it would be nice to be able to transfer registrations... with races selling out in 40 seconds this would create a black market in an instance.
If the WTC allowed transfers people would volunteer just to get the registration, then sell it for 2 or 3 or .... times the money.]

Yes, it would be nice but I do not see how it would create a black market if WTC controls it: i.e. introduce a transfer window of X days X months before the start of the event and the transfer must be done through WTC web site for a fee ( I am using Ottawa race weekend as an example here that allows to transfer 1/2 marathon registration for a 1 week period about 1 to 2 month before the start of the event for $15 through EventsOnline website).

Fred.

Whats the age group situation? Are they both in the same age group? i didnt see that anywhere in the thread. I think its cheating, and both should be turned in. I raced IMAZ in 45-49 males AG. I would not like to know that 15 or 20 of those guys ahead me were actually just there on paper and I was actually beat by a bunch of younger guys. No, I was not anywhere close to a roll down slot but if people start all racing under different names and age groups it will seriously delete the integrity of the AG classification and legacy program.

I think I would out them both. Im surprised a Tri club president helped facilitate this.

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Hold my Beer and watch this!

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I can't speak for Kyra and don't know if they were in the same age group but you bring up a couple of interesting points.It would not surprise me at all if somewhere there is someone who has raced in Kona after another person qualified for them.


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3 WTF in you post.
WTF?

Fred.

I asked earlier ---
No, 40-44 and 45-49.

It does make me feel better about being slow, knowing I raced my AG, without testosterone or cutting the course!

You choose to live where you do, Kathy. You're not going to make me feel guilty because you choose to live in a developing country and see this shit on a daily/weekly/monthly basis. You live in Mexico, I live in California....again I'm fairly certain by choice.

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"Though she be but little, she is fierce" ~Shakespeare | Powered by HD Coaching | 2014 Wattie Ink Triathlon Team | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter

I hate to hijack, but I would hate more to start a new thread for this one question, BUT speaking of racing Kona potentially illegally.....If someone who was pro in 2011 raced say IMAZ, IMFLA or IMCoz, then in 2012 lost their pro card and qualified for Kona in the early part of 2012. Can they legally race in Kona in 2012 since it was not a year from their last pro race?

Ok then. Sorry I didnt see that they weren't in the same age group. So now that Im in 45-49, MOP, there might be guys in my age group that are not who the results say they are. Thats wrong and thats not the way WTC has the age groups setup. Therefore it is breaking the rules. WTC should be notified and the athletes should be taken off the results list and maybe even banned for a year from WTC events.

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Hold my Beer and watch this!

I'm not reading the 74 people before me but I don't see it as cheating.

Cutting the course. Getting someone to do the bike for you. getting into someones car during the run is all cheating.

The person covered the entire course. The entry was paid for.

It's not cheating.

It is against WTC rules. But lets face it. They screw others over all the time.

Would I give my entry away if I couldn't race? No
Would I take someone elses entry if they couldn't race? No

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x2

Because of the money grabbing rules of the WTC-people can't do what would be reasonable (like getting credit toward a future race, or better than a $150 refund)

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"If we could give every individual the right amount of nourishment and exercise, not too little and not too much, we would have found the safest way to health"
- Hippocrates, 460-370 BC

Plain and simple, it's cheating and it's wrong.

I paid my $600+ realizing that the refund is limited and I can't transfer my bib number. I knew the risks going in.

Do what your conscious tells you, not what people on ST want you to do. Only you can decide.

Yeah! lets not pay taxes either since the goverment screws everyone over, doesnt make sense!

How would that bib being wasted with a DNS affect your race? It wouldn't! Mind your own business and don't worry about what they are doing. If they get caught then they pay the penalty, fair enough. That ISN'T cheating, just not wasting a perfectly good paid for bib - nobody is out anything here. Plus, it's not like he is running for a KQ spot.

I didn't even think about that. Just looked at all the pics and he has it on. Those are pretty easy to slide on and off, I'm guessing when it was put on the original bib owner he asked to have it loose and then slid it off with a little baby oil.

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"Though she be but little, she is fierce" ~Shakespeare | Powered by HD Coaching | 2014 Wattie Ink Triathlon Team | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter

I don't necessarily agree with this statement.

Cheating is a subset of rule breaking. Cheating gives someone an unfair advantage on the race course.

Breaking the rules may or may not give an unfair advantage. For example, if you leave the course and re-enter ) for whatever reason. But, you did not re-enter at the same place you left. In reality, you went backwards on the course and added more distance/ time. Did you break the rules? Yes. Did you cheat? Nope.

To the OP:
Is this situation 'cheating'? No
Is this situation breaking the rules? Absolutely
Is the rule for not allowing transfers fair? Maybe not, but it is consistent and predictable (which is something we want).

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Slow clap for you. Always nice to see how people are able to rationalize cheating and breaking the rules in their mind.

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So...does invoking the waiting for Godwin's law count as that invocation? Kind of a mobius strip effect?

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

But what if they raced up an AG, that could potentially give them some advantage.

 
So...does invoking the waiting for Godwin's law count as that invocation? Kind of a mobius strip effect?

you always sound this cool bro?

WWKMD?

What would Kevin Moats do?

Just because this person finished MOP and didn't screw up the podium or KQ slots has some people here able to say they are fine with the situation. Strange value set.

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I do think some are taking this a bit too seriously. The cheater hunt is on!

Interesting ST observation here: Herbert posted a cool bike video about 20 minutes after this posting. His cool post currently only has 5 hits. This one has over 90. Just an observation here.

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How does doping in the pro ranks affect me?It doesn't but that doesn't mean I won't call a pro doper a fucking loser...A lot of things that are against the rules don't affect me but that doesn't mean I should stand by and let it slide..What does my opinion have to do with you,nothing?Does my opinion affect you no and yet you are doing the same as I am by calling me on it?


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To be fair, I'm not clicking on any thread while at work with his title. Plus, if the title doens't tell me at least a little but about what is in the thread, I have no interest.

Um, yeah, let's not pay taxes. Let's see the Gov takes 40% of our paychecks AT THE POINT OF AN AR15 RIFLE (don't believe, stop paying taxes and it won't be long before your home is surrounded by armed thugs) to give it to single moms and drug addicts. Let's see, the people, overwhelmingly men, are getting cuckolded-by-proxy while governments, corporations and banks are waging illegal wars on foreign lands for profit (and sticking us with the bill) and we are worried about some idiot racing with someone else's number?

You do-gooders step up and protest something worthwhile.
End of thread.

Oh you're one of those. Now it makes more sense.

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You're right, but ST'ers know Herbert wouldn't post anything objectionable, so I peeked. I understand what you're saying though. Maybe that's why he doesn't have as many hits.

You may not agree with my statement but the dictionary sure does.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cheating?s=t


verb (used without object)
4.
to practice fraud or deceit: She cheats without regrets.
5.
to violate rules or regulations: He cheats at cards.

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Jen

"In order to keep a true perspective on one's importance, everyone should have a dog that worships him and a cat that will ignore him." - Dereke Bruce

Pretty much everyone agrees its cheating it's just a matter of how big of a foul it is.

KyraMorgan > TravisT is trying REALLY HARD to impress you. Can you send him a PM and tell him what a good boy he is?

Sportstats gave you the solution, fire over an email with the details, and let them take it from there. It will then be off your plate and handled in an official manner away from the ST drama and debate.

Please Kyra, you know awesome that would be ;-)

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good recovery +1

Illegal entry transfer doesn't just break WTC's rules, it also breaks USAT and ITU rules.

Yep. It's also not allowed in cycling or running. People do it there too, against the rules.

There's no debate here. This was against the rules, and in fact this is a bannable offense if caught. There's that word. Caught. Some think anything goes as long as they think they can get away with it.

Edit: I need to learn to touch type....

Interesting that you don't think it's breaking the rules if they were the same AG.

John

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Peanut wrote:

Illegal entry transfer doesn't just break WTC's rules, it also breaks USAT and ITU rules.

"3.5 Unregistered Participants.
a. Any person who participates in any portion of a sanctioned event without first properly registering and paying any required registration fee shall be suspended or barred from membership in USA Triathlon and barred from participation in any sanctioned event for a period of up to one year.
b. Any person who in any way assists another athlete to violate Section 3.5a by providing or selling a race number to that athlete shall be suspended or barred from membership in USA Triathlon and barred from participation in any sanctioned event for a period of up to one year.
Any second violation of this Section shall result in a lifetime suspension or ban from membership in USA Triathlon."

Looks like both parties receive up to a year ban.

http://www.usatriathlon.org/...ook.aspx#Article%203

 
Definitely the giver and the taker are doing something they shouldn't do, for many reasons listed above

In addition, in case this hasn't been said, the results are contaminated by having a name on a time that is not theirs

I wouldn't say turn them in, although I would say that volunteers at check-in need to look at photo ID real close; don't they?

Trav, I know someone personally who swapped entries at IMLP about a billion years ago and he received a LIFETIME ban (at least I know he never did another IM after he got caught). He was outted by someone who had it on for him (message board enemies), and it took no more than 2-3 pix to prove he raced under someone else's race number. So I disagree that WTC does not care. This happened eons ago when there were like 3 IM's in the whole of North America.

Kyra, it's cheating. Think of those who entered and ATE the cost of their entry because they got injured or sick, etc and could not start. Out him.

The OG Honeybadger

These guys already shave their legs,wear lycra and have taken each others names so I say we just out them and be done with it!


Hang on,what was the topic again?

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"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Hey! I believe you're crossing the ST line here. Just sayin!

I'll weigh in.

I wouldn't use the word 'cheating' for this instance. Yes-this person broke WTCs rules, but it's an administrative rule that was broken, not a race rule.

I agree with the earlier statements regarding if this person was a FOP/podium/Kona qualifier- as there's much more at stake here and that certainly would be cheating if it resulted in an award earned and by another. But that apparently was not the case here.

I say 'chill'. The entry was paid for (so WTC was fully compensated for providing their services). a racer raced it (presumably with out any other on-course cheating), and nobody was damaged in any way.

But let's say you did turn the person in. What would WTC do about it? What could they? You could show finisher photos and prove that it wasn't the intended athlete- and they could DQ the person who actually raced it. Perhaps deny the original purchaser the right to future entries? But that's about it. If they went after him in any other way, it would do more damage to their brand. At this point- I doubt if they really care. I'm sure they are aware that things like this happen. I'll bet there are a dozen of these in every race.

I'm one of "those," I suppose, and while I love nothing more than bitching about the government's inefficiency of spending tax money (or WTC's no transfer policy), I know that rules are rules. If I want to live in the US (race WTC), I pay their taxes (fees), regardless of how I feel about it. I can vote (race Rev3, or others) to try and cause change, but if I want to play their game, I have to play their rules.

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@adamwfurlong

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Not that there is anything wrong with that..


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I like the ST match-making suggestion: Kyra and TravisT as a couple.

Wouldn't that be sweet?

Big deal. Some guy went and did an event that was paid for.

The purpose of the no transfer rule to to prevent the sale of entries by scalpers.

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Guys who compete and finish MOP and and have to complain about other guys on the course are pathetic. Had he paid the organizers his entry fee, he still would have beaten those he beat.

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As I am such a dateless loser I will not be a party to finding carnal happiness for anyone else.....


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ahhhh, pretty sure travis is married. but, i will shamelessly admit all the wattie guys are pretty hot!!

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"Though she be but little, she is fierce" ~Shakespeare | Powered by HD Coaching | 2014 Wattie Ink Triathlon Team | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter

LOL.

We need a happy ending after the thread last week titled, "IM Training after a Breakup." Made me cry a bit!

I really want a happy ending. I NEED a happy ending.

Okay! Kyra and Ultra-tri-guy.

I shave my legs so we could make it work out.

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You're looking more and more attractive with every post.

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I met a few guys in Thailand who said the same thing after a few beers..

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I like the way you think.

No! Kyra for you if you continue to think like that, so behave!

You go Girl!

Hell no, we don't want a happy ending...we want blood. We want to see race photos. We want public humiliation..well, at least I do.

And it would be nice to see where the 40-45 suckwad who did the race placed in the 45-49 results.

And, it would be really cool if we found out the guy who raced is a Lance fan and thinks he shouldn't have been banned...

I can only dream..

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"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz

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I bet they own a Crossfit Box together....and use PowerCranks...Bastards!!!

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Enough already are we going to get an outing or what? This has devolved into a discussion about WTC policy, matchmaking, bad economic theory, Gaza, anti-government rhetoric and of course Lance. Where's my blood?

While I think it would be nice to be able to transfer registrations... with races selling out in 40 seconds this would create a black market in an instance. If the WTC allowed transfers people would volunteer just to get the registration, then sell it for 2 or 3 or .... times the money

The process could be very simple and make WTC even more $$$. The original owner advises WTC that he/she can't attend. WTC could accumulate the returned slots till xx days prior to the race then resells the slots. WTC resells the slot for the original cost and refunds 50% to the original purchaser. If the original cost is $800 and 100 people do this, WTC would make 100 x $400 = $40,000 extra. Not difficult to do.

it's a pre-req

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Wattie Ink Elite Team 2013/ Base Performance Ambassador 2011-Current

If anything, he's defrauding WTC and not getting credit for his race anyway. His name isn't on the books so its as if he raced the course on his own with no bib. A far as only getting pressed by 5 people...That is just because I wasn't racing. I do think WTC should change the rules a bit, certainly not allowing last minute changes though. That's to big an event to make alterations at the last minute.

Now, if you paid someone that is faster to race so you'd get a Kona spot, you can go eat shit.

Can the ST detectives get to work here? I'd be pissed if I lost a place to a guy from a younger age group racing against me. I don't care if I went from 50th to 51st it matters. To the guys that think it doesn't matter stop and let someone pass you before you head under the clock at your next IM.

What city are the perps from?

Its wrong i agree but i thing the wtc rule of no transfers even if given reasonable warning is unjust when coupled with the 125 "partial refund" rule. I think I paid the money i should be able to transfer if i give them enough time.. A month or 6 weeks maybe

The 2 culprit have been identified and information sent to WTC and USAT.

Results will be remove and 1 year ban are coming.

Happy Ending.....Of to Thailand now....LPT

You guys are awesome...have I said that before?

Well done.

This is not the SAT or a MBA entrance exam. It's a race...

The trend of races charging enormous fees to enter, and offering very little options on refunds, transfers, save for next season, needs to end. This is just a natural response by people being treated like numbers.

The nature of racing is injury is a real often faced consequence. The WTA doesn't give a damn about your little injury after they have your entry fee.

The WTA has created a systems that is so one sided that people will do this. I have nothing wrong with it. You should check your morals on the balance with WTA's.

can we get a clue? Not the finishing time. That's too easy for ST's CSI.

Definitely let a couple people pass you at the finish line next time since the race rules don't really matter.

There are many tri races that aren't as expensive or have as restrictive cancellation policies. Choose your race then follow all the rules. If you can't do that...WTF where does it end? Just make all the rules up or follow the ones you think are fair?

Damn!

Man! I'm starting to look forward to the "Post-IM Cheater Threads" more than the actual races.

Alright, who has any dirt on something going down in Cozumel this weekend?

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Proud Member of Chris McDonald's 2018 Big Sexy Race Team "That which doesn't kill me, will only make me stronger"
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Can you report back once decision to ban has been officially made? Right now, it's pointing that way, but I'd like to know if WTC and/or USAT will actually do the deed. I'm not asking for names. Just want to know if and when a ban was actually/officially handed out. I'd like to know if this is one of those quick action thing or will take 10 months before something is actually done.

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__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."

Don't take PEDS, run the full course, don't draft, play fair, be a positive influence.

Need help with where the line is now?

This isn't about using a bib to post better scores, or any other scheming manner that you could think up.

It's getting some value out of what you paid for in an act of civil disobedience. When you disagree with the system, you have the right to make your stand. This is mine (and apparently others as well).

You have every right to continue to get jobbed by WTA. Maybe that's where the anger comes from in the first place.

You missed the part where you follow the rules you signed up to race under.

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I'd include, don't race in the wrong age group.

If we're talking about a qualification only event, then I wouldn't do it or hand my bib off to someone else. But that doesn't seem to be what this lady was talking about.

Yea, there's also the consideration of someone being elite entering in an age group they would dominate. I'd certainly consider that as well as a filter.

But if that's not the case, then the WTA is just going to have to understand the cost of doing business goes both way.

Check your morals against WTC's morals? Civil disobedience? Twit!

x2. The liability is incredibly high when an unregistered participant races.
Also, this is straight from the WTC rules website:

Originally from: http://www.ironman.com/...s.aspx#ixzz2CoqzsHuE


Contestants should be aware of the serious consequences of violating USAT Competitive Rule 3.5 - Unregistered
participants, which states:
a. Any person who participates in any portion of a sanctioned event without first properly registering and paying
any required registration fee shall be suspended or barred from membership in USAT and barred from
participation in any sanctioned event for a period of up to one year.
b. Any person who in any way assists another athlete to violate Section 3.5a by providing or selling a race number
to that athlete shall be suspended or barred from membership in USA Triathlon and barred from participation in
any sanctioned event for a period of up to one year.
Anyone who violates this may be banned for life from any Ironman event. Violating this rule puts insurance coverage for
this event at risk.


Personally, I have a hard time with people who do not respect the sport, the race, it's directors and participants.

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-TMT

Travis, which of these would you bend the rules on...

- Sitting at a stop light that is malfunctioning. You've been the 1st car in line for over 6 minutes yet it remains red. Do you run it?
- Writing someone a speeding ticket doing 37mph in a 35mph zone.
- Your driving down the road and your wife sitting shotgun is 9 months pregnant and breaks her water, do you break any traffic laws to get her to the hospital faster?
- As the bus driver telling Rosa Parks to go back to her seat in the back of the bus.

Rules are rules? Rules are written by people, not gods. Some simply don't fit certain circumstances and others don't fit at all.

If you say you wouldn't bend the rules on any of the scenarios I listed above then I recommend you start thinking for yourself for a change.
Here's a good place to start http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_disobedience

If you are really trying to make those analogies to compare to this case your worldview is more fucked up then I originally thought. Carry on with your crusade.

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If the insurance companies won't cover the person (even though the premiums were paid by the other person who originally paid for the entry slot) then that just exposes the flaw in the insurance policy that WTA signs with the insurance provider.

Since every race this happens (guaranteed) and the WTA knows this (if they don't then they need to hire more intelligent staff) then I say the WTA is putting it's athletes in danger by signing insurance policies that don't cover the athletes for all circumstances that could occur.

How does the civil disobedience work in one of the lack of insurance scenarios listed above. At that point the offending protester probably starts suing people or apologizing. Please, civil disobedience in a retail situation is to refrain from purchasing the product.

Didn't think you'd answer. Since rules are rules, we know what your answers are.

Cute comeback.

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You have to sign a waiver when you go through athlete check in, the person who completed the race did not sign the waiver, the person who supplied the bib did.
Why should the insurance cover someone who should not be there?

Its not WTA, its WTC a private for profit company.

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___________________________________________
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2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

Rover24 - Defending the insurance company for accepting money (the same fee from everyone, regardless of health, age) yet deciding not to cover the person is one thing. That's what you appear to be doing.

However, the WTA isn't selecting a coverage off the store shelf here. It's a custom policy, that has attorneys on both sides ironing out the details. For the WTA to know there are possibly racers in the race who aren't the same people who paid (since this post points that out, we now have precedence) yet not insist coverage is extended to them or others hit by them is a significant oversight by them.

You can still be angry that people might give a bib to someone, but that doesn't address the WTA's choice (or lack of discretion) in signing a policy that protects it's athletes from all circumstances that exist (again, we know this).

You raise some valid points. Insurance policies have definitive wording regarding coverage. This is, of course, because insurance companies are seeking to generate a profit.

Let's say that WTC does negotiate a policy that would cover all athletes under all circumstances. How much do you think that policy would cost? Furthermore, who do you think would have to absorb most of that cost? I am going to make a wild guess and say that that expense would be passed on to the athletes. So, do you really want to pay an even higher registration cost because two people do not have a respect for rules or the race? I, for one, do not.

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-TMT

For what it's worth, I think KyraMorgan should be banned for 6 months for failure to report this incident to WTC. Failure to report a crime is often worse than the crime itself. Just look at Joe Paterno.

Also, the tri-club president who facilitated this transaction should be jailed. Like Jerry Sandusky, he will continue to commit crimes like this until he is put out of triathlon forever.

Sorry, my mistake, WTC. Thanks

WTC is inadvertently encouraging a black market for this type of activity. With plenty of demand in the market and no viable way to sign up on a waiting list registered athletes will try to "hook up" a fellow athlete or make a profit from the transfer of a registration slot.

Easiest way to manage the majority of black market activity is to set up a waiting list and establish a partial refund policy prorated by the month of cancellation prior to the event. I recognize that WTC "plans" for a certain level of no-shows, wonder how the percentage of no-shows is trending over the past few years now that Ironman events are selling out in minutes.

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http://www.abbeybiketools.com

I'm sure the insurance company attorneys would like to argue that they could charge more for that coverage... yet any good attorney could point out that it accounts for no increase in risk compared to all people racing with the bib's they bought.

3000 people paid = 3000 people covered. It's not like they charge different rates depending on your health, age, sex (since entry fees are all the same for any given race).

As many of you know insurance is a "risk" business.

WTC should have coverage assigned to bib #'s in rewriting the policy, thus excluding the risk they are putting their athletes at currently.

To allow an insurance company to have the out is negligence on WTC's part (and all athletes will continue to be at risk, since there's no way to prevent the scenario we just discussed). As it's WTC who should protect it's athletes from all circumstances (as the event organizer).

I'm not angry, I could really care less about the bib transfer, what bothers me is people thinking everything in life should conform to their views and in this case a business should mould their policy's to what you feel are right.
If WTC wants X insurance policy than so be it, you dont have to register for the events they hold.

I never asked you to agree with me.

It's clear the WTC's current policy is leaving it's athletes at risk. Blame who you want. Reading TriMom's post shows they know of the potential.

I guess, but I'd hate to see what would happen if she cheated on him!

Dude, it's WTC, World Triathlon Corporation.

You are ignoring the waiver, and the precedents.

This is not theory, bandits have gotten hurt in races and sued. This puts the race in serious jeporady, not to mention all the other parties.

http://www.runnersworld.com/...-paralyzed-sues-race

Edit: Another link related to the same article where it mentions where he got the bib: http://www.letsrun.com/...d.php?thread=4581424

So let's ignore that bandits will exist (precedence however clearly established) and not insist the WTC change it's insurance policy to protect the athletes in the race from all circumstances.

Let's also act like it's the bandits fault (and defend or remain silent on the WTC not changing it's insurance policy).

Does that cover it?

No, lets not pretend that the word Corporation and Evil are the same thing.

WTC has to play by rules too. The rules of the Insurance company in this case. The insurance company has rules as well.

Yes, they could possibly get better insurance, for more money, that would cost the racers more money.

And lets not pretend that if you are ignoring the rules that are clearly laid out you are blameless.

I have no problem with someone sending a message to the WTC asking for a policy change, or racing somewhere else and voting with dollars. But simply ignoring the policy means you take the risk of a ban, and you put at risk other people and the race itself.

"But simply ignoring the policy means you take the risk of a ban" - Yes, fact.
...and you put at risk other people and the race itself" - No, opinion. The race organizer (in this case WTC) is neglecting to protect its athletes and itself fully (since they know bandits exist). I could decide to not consider doing this in the future. Does it change the risk you and anyone else in WTC race face regarding bandits? No.

So blaming bandits only gets you back to square 1, where there still is risk to racers (who paid for their bib and are healthy and racing with it) that they might be denied coverage if struck by a person racing with another persons bib.

Their policy isn't comprehensive and we've found it to be severely lacking here in our discussion. They are choosing not to cover this scenario. Their choice. Why? (profit?, neglect?, ignorance?, a little risk of their own?)

It's also your choice to compete in a race that doesn't protect it's athletes from a clearly known precedent. You don't have to take that risk, but then I guess there's a little risk in everything we do.

Whilst you are right, that's still not cheating.

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I am more worried about the stalking OP. Who the frick cares if someone who cannot use their entry gives it to a friend? As long as they are not placing high, it does not matter to the OP one bit. Cheating is someone using a slot that was paid for? Give me a break.

x2

I hardly call it "stalking" when the parties involved had open discussions with me about the entire situation...ALL WEEKEND!!! Or when hen the tri club president brought it up and had a 10 minute conversation with me while she was still in the finishers gate! Or the fact I had a 2 hr breakfast with the person who raced. I'm pretty sure we have vastly different definitions of "stalking"....

Circumvention of rules governing conduct and procedures of a sport can also be considered cheating.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheating

So you have no concerns that the seller may be trying to get to Kona through the IM Legacy program by getting other people to race for him?

That's ok to you?

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

We actually don't know if this is the case or the person just gave his slot away so you are making assumptions here. Not saying if I think it is right or wrong, to be honest I have split thoughts on it. Yes it's breaking the rules so wrong but WTC should also offer a more flexible policy like they do in Europe these days. I've taken advantage of the policy in Europe and will be much more likely to race there in future because of the policy. In one sense they are their own worse enemy and creat situations where this sort of behaviour is likely to happen.

As a poll I'd like to know how many people who are so condeming on this thread have not either raced with someone else number or given their race number to a friend? Not just talking about WTC races or triathlon races but everything from local affairs to major events. I will hold my hand up and say I have done both and on each occassion it was not for any gain whatsoever but just so an entry didn't go wasted. I think sometimes we are on the look out for sinister motives when there may be none.

You are right, I am making assumptions, how about we change my wording to "that the seller may be trying to get to Kona through the IM Legacy program".

I would have a big problem with this if it were true.

And I do think that they could easily offer a more flexible policy on refunds but they don't.

I have given my race bib away to my brother for a half marathon. I didn't think much of it at the time, I probably wouldn't do this again.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

If it is the case of getting a legacy slot then I would have much more of a problem with this also but it just seems unlikely to me although OP may know better.

Re giving my slot to others, yes I would do for local races but not for major ones. Luckily most of the local races where I live are sensible about it and do allow a change in athlete if notified so it's not an issue for the most part. For a one off 10km race or tri sprint I really don't see the harm. Yes I know I will get shot down now by those who say rules are rules and we will hear about Health and Safety but remember these H&S rules vary from country to country. For anyone who does shoot me down I'd like you to honestly answer in the same way BLeP has if you have been involved in a number swap in the past or not

I wouldn't have thought of the Legacy scam if it wasn't mentioned that the seller has lots of money and frequently signs up for IMs then sells his bib whenever he "doesn't feel like racing".

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

So what place exactly is "placing high" and would make it worthwhile? Isn't having some random "high enough place" encouraging stalking? Kyra asked a simple question, unfortunately she forgot that many of the people here are very simple themselves.

And C|earwater's examples are ludicrous -- we are not talking about "government" trying to limit people, this is a corporation setting rules for voluntary participants.

The display of moral relativism by many in this thread is very disheartening.

The "inability" to transfer bibs for non-qualifying events is completely ridiculous. Ive used others numbers and i see no problem with giving or selling bibs and if he's doing it to exploit the legacy program then that's a convenient consequence of IM refusal to do transfers

My initial reaction is that medical issues could easily come up with the "new" bib holder and ALL kinds of crazy issues could play out if bib is not officially transferred. Races like Cherry Blossom allow for proper bib transfers within their system.

1) they don't know person's real medical pre-race conditions
2) original bib holder family could be notified, incorrectly, that "harry" is sick and they need to come quickly
3) under prepared "bandit" racers could attempt an Ironman on insufficient training and the WTC assumes the liability of that racer anyhow because they are there. ( i know...there are lots of otherwise insufficiently trained people on the starting line on race day anyway).

As far as the OP topic...I feel it's plain wrong and no doubt those involved are going to be outed one way or another. Running around bragging about your biking skills and talking publicly about the race assures that to happen.

AmaDablam wrote:

I am more worried about the stalking OP. Who the frick cares if someone who cannot use their entry gives it to a friend? As long as they are not placing high, it does not matter to the OP one bit. Cheating is someone using a slot that was paid for? Give me a break.

i'm kinda with you. i thoroughly enjoyed the T3 'twitch hunt (for its entertainment value)... but this is making a mountain out of a mole hill.

I'll now confess some of my cheating from this year.

• At my last race, my chin strap was caught on something in my helmet. rather than pull over, fix the problem, and start again, i let the chin strap sit below my bottom lip for a while. at some point, it came untangled an i resumed proper use of the chin strap. What can i say, i'm an adrenaline junkie.
• In April I unstrapped my chin strap before racking my bike in the heat of T2...not like as i entered T2, just as i was standing in front of my rack spot. I DO WHAT I WANT.
• In May i'm pretty sure i followed someone too closely as we passed a big group of people... that's a double whammy. LIVIN ON THE EDGE.
• Oh yeah, can't remember when this was but I went outside the cones to avoid a rider who didn't have much control of their bike. YOLO.

"cheating is cheating" doesn't really work. we're not God judging sin here, we're people calling out other people and we recognize some stuff is worse than others. So if we're saying "cheating is cheating" then i'm going to bet the OP's tabula isn't as rasa as she may think.

This one time i saw a dude running with earbuds during a race.
And i saw someone dismount a little too late into T2 (with no penalty)
At the last swim meet i was at, 60+ year old swimmer didn't touch with two hands on breaststroke.
Should I have gone and told officials?

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-Jason
______________________________________________
Is that all you've got? Are you sure?

[quote
At the last swim meet i was at, 60+ year old swimmer didn't touch with two hands on breaststroke.
Should I have gone and told officials?[/quote]
Yes. My 7 y/o was DQ'd twice in 4 swim meets (summer league) for the same infraction. She ALWAYS hits with two hands now. Right is right.

I wonder if they'll be able to tell who turned them in.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

LoDewey - Corporate civil disobedience happens everyday, and I'd be willing to bet you do it and don't even know it.

The notion that "with your dollars" is the only way to make corporations see their failings is rather limited. Some of the biggest issues in our generation have been solved or highlighted through corporate civil disobedience. So while you blow off what I've said as absurd, here's some forms that might hit a bit closer to home... sound familiar?

- Ever hear of the Greensboro Sit-In's (1960)? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greensboro_sit-ins
- Big Names in the Sportswear Industry Changing Because People Challenged Them On Sweatshops http://www.guardian.co.uk/...jul/06/activism-nike
- Have a doctor look at 2 separate things in 1 visit (According to insurance companies, this is to be billed as 2 separate visits)
- Split your cable in your house so that it displays on multiple TV's
- Record music or movies on cassettes, CD's, DVD's, USB drives, to be played in multiple places (at one time this was illegal, now there are fair use laws - guess why?)
- Enter a movie theater with food or drink from somewhere else (in your pocket)
- Holding a "Equal Marriage Rights Kiss In" in Chic-Fil-A to end the companies multi-million dollar funding of anti-gay rights PAC's in Washington DC http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...eased_n_1896580.html
- Use your smartphone as a hotspot for your PC to connect to the internet without paying the more recently introduced extra hotspot fee

Please don't tell us these are ludicrous too (all forms of corporate/business civil disobedience). Maybe you don't know of this term for it.

Since we've found the WTC policy doesn't cover it's athletes from bandit accidents, and it's their policy of limited refund / transfer that is the majority factor in causing this activity, it is quite clear what needs to happen. Thinking that "voting with my dollars" by boycotting their races is going to cause WTC to consider fully covering athletes from all circumstances they face in a race is... well, I'll use your word, ludicrous.

I believe this is at least a 1 year ban from WTC races and USAT races. This is a serious issue and how slow someone is not a factor.

I've heard this a lot - "It's ok that my (entourage) is running with me... I'm not qualifying" or "It's ok that (breaking whatever rule) I'm not going to win".

Turn them in. They earned the suspension.

Breaking the rules=cheating=douche=smelly...the whole thing just stinks...

I fully expected this thing to be locked down when I logged in this morning. You guys are really slacking on this one!

ST, I am disappoint.

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txtriathlete wrote:

Yes. My 7 y/o was DQ'd twice in 4 swim meets (summer league) for the same infraction. She ALWAYS hits with two hands now. Right is right.

yeah, there are two reasons for things under the cheating umbrella here: either it affects other people, or it simply violates regulations. One comes into play because it hurts others if you break them. the other just means one didn't follow the standard we all agreed to, but of no consequence to anyone but themselves.

Two-hand touches aren't really an ethical thing. there's no real competitive advantage to touching with your hands .5 seconds apart. but you're a good father and recognize the need to teach her to play by the rules at an early age because it has consequences later in high school and college swimming. Telling her to go have herself DQ'd is completely noble on your part. I personally wouldn't to tell the judges on either your little girl or the old man, however. if the judges missed it, they missed it. I'm not interested in either one of their turns next time they swim. Had they been caught, I too would have said "rules are rules". but there's no competitive advantage to touching asymmetrically. Now, if I had a little girl racing yours, and she was doing 2 dolphin kicks off every wall, yeah i'd tell an official... same goes for the 60 year old man. it made him faster than everyone else following the rules.

So anyway, in my opinion, nobody ever complains if every rule is enforced i.e. 7 y.o. get's dq'd for improper turn. . however, had she incorrectly turned and not been caught by the officials i don't think other parents would have been jumping out of the stands screaming at officials to dq her.

In the case of the bandit racer, i think we have to look at the consequences in hindsight since that's all we have. did he either KQ, do reasonably well in his AG, or cause a wreck? if no, then let's let a dead dog lie. it wasn't right but isn't worth raising a stink over now.

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-Jason
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Is that all you've got? Are you sure?

Thank you for the chuckle.

I'm very sure Kyra is not a cheater. ;)

"Hell no, we don't want a happy ending...we want blood. We want to see race photos. We want public humiliation..well, at least I do." (stringcheese)

Funny!

This ain't going to be popular but I don't know why anyone really cares about a Bib transfer in a Ironman unless it is done for the pure purpose of creating an advantage for the original owner or for the person who receives the transfer. I obviously know it is against the rules.....but really so what?

They will definitely know who turned them in, especially the person who raced. I really wanted to say something during the race, in fact I was just about to find an official when I ran into a friends former coach...I explained the situation and this person said not to bother, they (WTC/USAT) won't do a thing about it, so I dropped it. The sole reason for my post was stated in the first and last question... "What do you feel constitutes cheating....", by no means is this intended to be a witch hunt, if that was my objective I would have given more information so you all would have easily been able to figure out the "guilty" parties.

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"Though she be but little, she is fierce" ~Shakespeare | Powered by HD Coaching | 2014 Wattie Ink Triathlon Team | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter

Kyra: In 7th grade a friend said to me, "I know a girl who is cheating on her boyfriend, should I tell him?" And wouldn't you know it, the girl he was referring to was MY girfriend.

Most people grow out of this behavior. In this particular instance you appearantly have not. You wanted to turn the person in but you were afraid to do the dirty work. I am not sure if it is cheating or not, but I am sure that this was a petty post.

The worry about unexpected medical problems is why they need to allow transfers. You can say dont do it but it really doesn't stop anyone but the hyper righteous follow rules to a T people.

"unfortunately she forgot that many of the people here are very simple themselves." (LoDewey)



Blah, Blah, Blah . . . .!

Do you ever have a point to any of your posts?

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So is he your friend or is he a "pompous douche"? Im guessing youre not good friends, otherwise you could have approached him personally to ask.

As for racing under another bib, who cares? Who is the victim? Sure if money or qualifying spots are involved and accepted, it is cheating. But to help another racer save some cash that WTC wants to extort? Right on! I'm inly assuming the one year ban that was levied was only for WTC events. Again, who cares? WTC is a for-profit company, not a governing body of triathlon. If I were said banned person, I'd go race another series and not look back.

At the end of the day, the companies who offer the best customer service and value rise to the top. I think the question of why this happens lies more with WTC than the racers.

It is a violation of USAT rules as well which will result in a 1 year ban from all USAT races. You'd know that if you read the thread. Also you would then know that there are other reasons in play for why this is a rule other then just "WTC is money hungry". WTC could make a shit ton more money if they had a transfer policy in place. Something they absolutely should do and something I think we all can agree on. Glad you feel that MOP'ers and BOP'ers are worthless compared to the front of the field though and don't care about how their placing in the race may be effected.

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.

In the past WTC used to oversell their races because they could accurately predict how many people would not show. If all those people instead gave their bibs to someone else you would have problems with overcrowding. I don't know if the policy has changed but I am surprised no one has brought that up.

I know the half Vineman is a WTC event which has a waitlist policy which I think is great. However that was grandfathered in from when they were independent, and they continue to be run by the same wonderful event organization.

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The first time man split the atom was when the atom tried to hold Jens Voigt's wheel, but cracked.

Thanks for the USAT info, that changes things a bit as its harder to find non-sanctioned races. Thanks too for the snarky comment for my making the grand mistake of only reading 2 pages of the thread and Dan's article (neither of which I saw the ban specfics spelled out in) before posting. Im new to this forum but on another couple in different sports and the biggest issue with ST is that half the posts are side-swiping another person for no reason.

As for MOP, I say anything about them mattering less and I am one myself, so dont put words in my mouth. What I said is that its cheating when prizes or awards are accepted as part of the bib exchange.

I dont think the intent is malicious in 95% of transfers, so the only major issue for me beside affecting placing (if in different AG's) is insurance.

A clear reason for us all to abide by WTC's greed based rules...


Since greed is the motivating factor for their rules in the first place, using more greed (overselling races - and the need to accurately predict no shows) as the logical reason we should stand down is just pure awesomeness.

I love how the WTC races are primarily run by volunteers (more greed?). A for-profit venture with exorbitantly increasing entry fees run off the backs of free labor and defended beyond reason in the name of morality. It is these very volunteers that have no incentive to be the WTC's police force in enforcing this policy.

I really feel sorry for people who have a moral dilemma here. Do what you have to do. Just know that others will as well.

other than the annoying "YOLO" reference, that is a damn fine post.

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"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

"WTC could make a shit ton more money if they had a transfer policy in place."

i don't think so. if you sell 2300 entries knowing 2000 are going to show, you earn 300 x $650 or whatever the entry fee is. plus your vig on the reg engine. plus the USAT 1-day money. that's $195,000 plus those ancillary fees. if you sell 2100 entries on the assumption 2000 are going to show (200 will transfer entries, 100 will just not show), then what you earn is this, if you have a $150 change fee:

$150 x 200 = $30,000
$650 x 100 = $65,000

this transfer policy costs you $100,000. that's a pretty big hit for an RD. maybe there's some other calculus i'm not thinking of, but, at first blush that's what it seems to me.

on the flip side is the small RD who really wants early entries. if you assume that he's going to raise fees by 25 percent as the race approaches, i might well buy "race insurance" in the form of buying that early entry, if i can go to active.com and get my money back minus 20 percent. as it is now i just enter late, and i pay that extra 25 percent, and that's my "race insurance."

i think this transfer/refund policy actually benefits the majority of the races, but does NOT benefit the races that fill early. and, the earlier they fill the more they are penalized by a refund/transfer policy, because the more things that can happen that cause one to just not show up.

that established, a proper transfer/refund policy is appropriate, for WTC and everyone else, because it's easy technology, it's more fees for active and other reg engines so they should embrace it, and it's keeping in line with every other industry going. no industry is as boorish and dismissive of their clientele, as regards refunds/exchanges/transfers, as is the race production industry.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Insurance is the main reason this rule is in effect. Risk management demands that you prepare for the worst case.

Bandit causes a crash and somebody dies. We live in an extremely litigious Family of the deceased sues the WTC, the race director, the town, etc. basically anyone who is even remotely involved in putting on the race. Insurance won't cover an accident caused by a bandit, they weren't covered by the insurance policy. If they settle or go to trial it is likely to be a big number. Who will pay for those costs. We will in the form of increased races fees. Maybe the race doesn't happen in future years, you need the town's ok to get permits.


It's cheating and it hurts everyone (or at least can).


Now if WTC changes their transfer policy...

Blah, blah, blah, WTC is greedy, blah, blah, blah for-profit.

Yes, we get it, you dislike the WTC. Don't do their races and move on with your life.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Do what you have to do. Just know that others will as well.

That's a good point assuming WTC is overselling entires based on an assumed no show rate. Which I wouldn't be surprised if they were doing. You probably have more actual knowledge of that then most of us. I agree with most of the posters on here that WTC need to implement a transfer policy but until that takes place the no shows that are passing their bibs off are damaging the race product for the rest of the athletes.

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THAT.

Insurance is the reason behind many many rules that seemingly make no sense. Everything and everyone is insured, and the insurance people ask for certain guarantees, processes, procedures, limitiations etc, before they grant the insurance.

Nice. The old I'll do whatever I want attitude. Not surprising given you history of supporting allowing dopers to continue racing and lack of caring about drafting.

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It's a little shady, but I don't see it as cheating unless the guy who gave up the spot used that person's time to qualify for another race or take credit for it. I wouldn't take someone's spot if offered, but I wouldn't be bothered if someone else did. I'm sure it happens way more than people think. If they want to take a chance at getting DQ'd that's on them.

"Insurance won't cover an accident caused by a bandit"

i think there should be a rule against both banditing, and against transfers other than those allowed by the race organization. but, i defy you to find an insurer anywhere who'll say its policy will not cover a race organizer sued by a bandit. i'm confident no insurer is going to post on this forum saying his policy will not defend and cover an insured against a bandit.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"That's a good point assuming WTC is overselling entires based on an assumed no show rate. Which I wouldn't be surprised if they were doing."

if they're not, they should be. i would be.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I have read this thread, and have not seen actual evidence of a bandit causing any race, or RD, financial harm (other than perhaps not paying the entry fee). This the cruc of most people's argument who are against transferring a race entry, but in my opinion it is a strawman.

Can a litigator or insurance expert please weigh in with some evidence that transferring a number actually increases financial risk to the race and/or its organizers? Until we see this, the whole insurance argument is just an urban legend.

The link posted regarding the fun run has nothing to do with whether the registration was transferred - the race would have been sued regardless.

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I'm not an insurer .... but I would suspect that since a bandit has likely not signed the race waiver that there is more liability to the race/insurer.

Dave

If that is the risk they are willing to take knowing there are severe consequences for their actions. In the case a 1 year ban on all WTC and USAT races. Depending on when the ban takes effect, he will not be participating in HIM Oceanside, Canada or Tahoe and those are just the WTC events, he will be banned from all USAT sanctioned races too.

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"Though she be but little, she is fierce" ~Shakespeare | Powered by HD Coaching | 2014 Wattie Ink Triathlon Team | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter

http://www2.richmond.com/...ganizers-ar-1921562/

To your point and Dan's, it would be interesting to hear what a lawyer or insurance expert would have to say about some of the specifics on liability for the organizer, bandit, etc. I am an expert in neither, but have been told by very good attorney that waivers arent as effective in court as many, including myself, believe. So Im not sure a court would find that signing a waiver makes a substaintial difference in one's understanding of risks on race day.

It seems the conversation has evolved into two camps. Those who think its plain and simple cheating and breaking the rules, and those who are not concerned as much with the act itself, but more the logistics of such making transfers legitimate.

It would have been sued, but it would have also had the waiver in place. You can argue that won't hold up, but it at the very least is an acknowledgement by the racer that the event has risks.

I'm all for legal transfers, but I agree with Slowman that the WTC over sells and would lose money, or increase rates to compensate.

We recently had a local RD switch from reselling packets, to over selling (they didn't allow transfers but would resell those not picked up at the end of packet pickup) because of issues they had with doing re-sells at the last minute. I don't know what those were, but it was clear the hassle factor became high. I think over selling is part of the equation IF you sell out.

Edit: I can't spell.

This says that he sued, but was he successful?

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

I'm still irritated that a guy from a younger age-group raced in the wrong age-group and cost some age grouper a place. Not to mention him having the wrong age on his calf probably made some of the guys in his correct age group let him go by not knowing they were being passed by a direct competitor. That's weirder but still knowing who you are racing against is important.

"have been told by very good attorney that waivers arent as effective in court as many, including myself, believe."

depending on the state, you either have a good, or very ill informed, attorney. there are "waiver-friendly" states and those that are not. calif is a waiver-friendly state, and waivers are pretty rock solid.

however, there was a supreme court decision, if memory serves, a couple of years ago that said that waivers don't protect against "gross negligence". this is a pretty high standard. hard to prove gross negligence.

insurers can insure against whatever they want to insure against. you decide the policy provisions, underwriting requirements, etc., and you hang your shingle and sell policies. in point of fact no RD insured under USAT actually buys an insurance policy. they are listed as additional insureds to USAT's policy. do you really believe that USAT is going to leave itself bare of coverage for any bandit or transfer that sues it? i would be shocked if that were the case, and i doubt it is the case. USAT's folks are welcome to post here and disabuse me of my error.

however, the waiver is so vital as a defense that it would be reckless behavior to NOT require waivers to be signed. but no RD can protect against a bandit, and i would be surprised if defense and coverage were not afforded a sanctioning RD who was sued by a bandit. i'd certainly like to know if this is NOT covered.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

You don't need to assume there is overselling. Look at Lake Placid. Right now, the website shows around 3000 athletes registered. Check out how high the athlete numbers go up to when bib numbers are published; maybe in the 2500 range? The rest were the ones that canceled out sometime between when they registered and when the partial refund date hit. Then take a look at the number that actually start the race; this will tell you how many paid, and got no refund.
Again, if you don't like a race organization's refund policy, then you can choose to take your business elsewhere. The rate at which sellouts are happening doesn't seem to be getting that much longer, so the system must be working.

As for insurance, at least for the US races, WTC sanctions with USAT, and uses their insurance. I don't think it's a customized insurance between WTC and the insurance company. And as for the opinion of "what's the harm in giving someone else my entry without an official transfer, with new waivers", here's the type of lawsuit that can happen:

IIRC, this happened about 10 years ago at a west coast triathlon:
- Athlete A registers, picks up packet and signs waivers
- Athlete A gives packet to athlete B, who bandits
- Car driver ignores police officer, drives onto course and hits B
- B files for insurance coverage under USAT's policy, and is denied
- B sues the race director, USAT and others. It goes to court, B loses.

Even though the plaintiff didn't win, there was still the time spent in preparation and testimony, which isn't free. And if B was hit by a driver not associated with the race, why did B sue everyone associated with the race? Because a lawyer saw a chance at a good payout? This is one of the reasons that race directors and USAT go after both buyers and sellers of illegal transfers, to show that they are putting forth best efforts to make sure that only those that have properly both entered the race, and acknowledged the risks in a waiver, are those that are racing.

Here we have an issue where it's not black or white, and you want to portray it that way.

There's a lot of gray in every every facet of life.

I've already stated what rules are morally just in this thread (in my opinion). This one simply isn't so.

Knowing that when you race you feel the product is virtually damaged because of bandits and not by a flawed organizers decision to not protect you from all circumstances sounds like your own issue.

I don't condone drafting, and the USADA should go back to be an organization based in science (spend their money improving their testing) and not let cavalier attorneys instead waste those taxpayer dollars chasing trophies based on personal vendettas and public career building agendas.

Good try on trying to summarize my past posts into one sentence coffin nails. If I was in your shoes I might feel it's time to rely on things other than the merits of this debate to save face as well. Your moral high ground is clouded by the greed of a business and your last effort is to blame bandits for "hypothetical product damage."

What if the guy who got the bib was slower and finished behind you meaning you did get a slot but the original guy was faster than you and if he had raced it would mena you didn't get KQ? Just interested if you would still feel so strongly. Personally I don't think we should do it in WTC races because of the qualy issues that could arise but I fully understand why people would do it, WTC create the situation themselves being being so rigid. I read someone who said it was an insurance issue, if this is the case why can we swap slot in Europe then?

Do I get pissed, no not really I have far more important things to worry about like my own race. I'm sure in every single major race I have done there have been plenty of people with swapped bibs but what can I do and what does calling out one person do? I'll tell you what it does, nothing. I raised an issue about a blatant cheat in Sri Lanka earlier this year with the WTC and they said they would ask him to be honest and tell them if he cheated....guess what, he didn't and they did jack about it and we were talking about a podium position and the way he cheated was startlingly obvious