I don't use the word cheating, with whatever connotations it has for the individual reader. I see it as a breaking of a rule, whether intentional or not. It's up to others to decide the severity of any penalty associated with the specific rule broken.

There are lots of other triathlons that have a no transfer policy. I don't know why you're focusing on just WTC ("yet is the one that prevents".)

As for the idea that only races with a no transfer policy are the ones that have bandits, I'm not so sure of that. I've heard of cases where, even if there is a transfer policy in place, some still will not pay the transfer fee or not go through the administrative side to do it. I the end, no matter what the transfer policy, there will be unauthorized transfers and not having the correct names/signatures on the forms.

As to the moral side of the issue, I wouldn't want to take someone's number and bandit a race, only to be injured and then have the original holder's family notified erroneously.

The free market is working as it's supposed to. Races tell us what their policies are, and its our choice to take those risks and enter, or take our business elsewhere. And if I don't feel that any have a good enough product, I can always produce the type of race the way I want, and get others to come along.

Edit: one last note. The OP said that a third party, the president of their tri club, was involved in the transfer. If so, then I would think that he or she would be on the list for possible penaly (whatever ends up being deemed appropriate).

Those waivers are worthless. _Eveyone_ who sues will claim gross negligence that is not covered by the waiver. The promoter will fall back on assumption of risk. Anyone doing an Ironman will have done other triathlons and signed other waivers, so they cannot claim that they were unaware of the risks listed in the boilerplate of a typical waiver.

The insurance will go up when athletes who paid and raced for their original slot get injured. Someone who used another persons slot has no more chance of being injured than anyone else. With the transfer there are the same number of competitors and the same risk to the insurance provider. The provider will have the option of covering the "bandit" or fighting it. If they cover then the cost is the same as if the original slot purchaser was injured. If they don't cover then they will do so because it will save them money. By having the option to deny coverage to a competitor, the insurance provider's risk and cost is reduced.

Why does it matter to you???

Stop living your life asking the "what if...." question.

What if I ride in the street and get hit by a car?
What if I swim in the ocean and get bit by a shark?
What if I run on a trail and roll my ankle?
What if i go to work and there is a shooting?
What if my sushi dinner gives me a stomach ache?

Why send people to the lynch mob for doing something that you don't agree with? Who made you God of the Ironman and have the right to police these events? Are you a race official? if not, then do what everyone elses does and mind you own business. Let the officials officiate and let the spectators spectate and let the athletes race.

Your delusional and paranoid. Take your meds. Everything will be ok.

There is a good valid point. I'm in an older AG so although I may do well within my AG typically I come somewhere about the 20% mark in overall results meaning in a race with 2000 people I'll come about 400. I would be prepared to put a bet on that at least half of those in front of me have broken some rule or other during the race (less than 10m on the bike, not dropping back fast enough when past, not fastening helmet at correct point, missing a buoy, cutting a cone on the run, maybe even a bib swap or two etc etc you get the point). A lot of people are getting very over heated about this one instance but cheating or breaking the rules is almost institutional in IM race whether intentional or not. In the IMAZ thread there is a big discussion going on about draft packs as an example. So what we are doing here is singling out this one instance because the OP doesn't like them and stomping all over them....yes its a witch hunt. Did the OP think to stand at a cone and take the numbers of every one who stepped inside it? Is she had would she have felt the same way about them? I don't think so but I may be wrong

Completely bogus. Now we have gone to the "think of the children" stage, the last argument of a scoundrel.

What if the original purchaser had caused an accident? What if he had hit a child? What makes you think that the person using someone else's bib is more likely to cause an accident? From the sound of it, the "bandit" is more experienced, so there will be less of a chance of him causing an accident than the original purchaser.

If you want to whine about people causing accidents then you should be talking about triathletes' notoriously shitty bike handling skills. That has nothing to do with whether someone is racing in a slot they paid for or someone else paid for.

It is obvious you are looking for some sort of group affirmation to justify turning in people you have a personal beef with. That is the whole purpose of the thread. It is as transparent as the self-aggrandizing assholes who start threads ostensibly asking for advice about whether they should bang two chicks at the same time then run an Ironman the next day. Why don't you be honest and tell us why you have it in for these guys whose behavior affects you not one bit?

What's to stop someone from singing up for a bunch of IM's, having other people race them, and then claiming the legacy spot to Kona when the time comes? They didn't follow the rules when everyone else did. This isn't a matter of right and wrong, it is simply wrong. It's much like speeding, you can do it all you want, but when you get caught you must face the consequences. Clearly the original racer was not injured or unable to race (you stated he was there taking photos). I have no sympathy for any repercussions.

---

_________________________
I got nothing.

This is a valid question and you did not answer it.

---

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

You're an idiot who has zero grasp on the reality of racing and the rules and reasons for those rules.

It took over 100 posts to get to the good part, but that thread beat watching the parade on tv.

I have no personal beef with anyone involved. I very briefly met the original bib purchaser, the racers wife introduced me. As for the racer, he's not a horrible guy, far from it.. Sure he's on the pompous side when he talks about how he never get passed on the bike...we all know people like this.

I'm asking you, the forum readers of ST, what you feel constitutes "cheating" and giving one scenario you feel may or may not be construed as "cheating". If you want to compare this to banging two chicks then participating in an IM the the next day, so be it.

In light of everything that has gone on this year (and I think we all know what I'm referring to), I feel my question on "cheating" beyond doping or course cutting is a valid one.

As for your "think of the children comment", I think we both know "children" in the terms you're referring to aren't even allowed to race IM, min age is 18. I met several parents watching their 28, 20, 39, 45 year old so /daughter, their "child" racing this weekend.

I'll agree one needs to have superior handling skills on a Tri bike especially going into a race of any distance. Unfortunately, bad bike handling skills aren't a violation.

Anyway, at least we agree to disagree on my post/agenda/motive.

With that said, I do wish you a wonderful Thanksgiving! (Assuming you're in the US :-)

---

---

"Though she be but little, she is fierce" ~Shakespeare | Powered by HD Coaching | 2014 Wattie Ink Triathlon Team | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter

"these 2 people are race cheats, plain and simple."

if i buy a ticket to a concert, and it turns out i can't go, and i give that ticket to a friend so that he can enjoy the thing i bought, i'm not considered to have committed a bad act.

but if i engage in this very same behavior for the very same reason, very same motive, i'm a pariah in triathlon, banished from the entire sport for a year.

to me, the question is not how it got this way. i know how it got this way. i've been around for the entire history of the sport and i can tell you how it came to be this way. the wonder of it is how you, and so many otherwise normal, reasonable, rational, fair, honest people like you, have gotten to the place where you not only accept the status quo, but you buy into the hogwash that the sinner is the person who wants someone to realize the fruit of his investment, rather than the industry that perpetrates and perpetuates behavior so dismissive of and sneering to its customers so as to have no equal anywhere else in any industry.

i understand why you can't give your entry to somebody else, as if you would give your concert ticket to somebody else. there's liability involved. you must know the name of the person attending the race. his gender. his age. he must sign the waiver.

30 years ago it was too difficult to contemplate these race entry transfers. now it's not. there's no reason why we can't either have a transfer policy in place; or a trade in the secondary market. this would be a boon to active.com and the other registration engines. RDs would share in the profits. the only sticks in the mud are the race organizers who think they stand to make more money screwing their customers than the money they would make servicing their customers. they have kept a policy in place that made some sense 30, 20, even 15 years ago. but it makes sense no longer. now it's just an abject rip off of the customer unknown anywhere else, in any industry, anywhere.

registration engines don't have to deliver the final dbase of athletes to the RD until very nearly race time. why the industry can't go to a refund, or transfer, or ticket exchange, model that operates until a week or two prior to the race is god's own mystery.

in any case, i think you should reconsider who it is you should really be mad at. yes, these two people broke a rule and i understand the rule. but the rule is unnecessary. greed, at the expense of the customer, is the only logical reason i can see for this rule to still be in place.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

How do you know? Maybe he had an achilles tendon injury and did not feel like he should run twenty-six miles. Maybe he had hemorrhoids. Maybe family or work obligations prevented him from putting in the required training. When people have to sign up a year in advance, there are a million things that can prevent someone from racing.

How is her question a valid one? People would feel the same regardless - the bandit part of things is a red herring in her hypothetical.

A different angle on cheating: The person who chose not to race cheated someone out of a fairly obtained spot by giving it to a friend (or team-mate or whomever).
And, here is how we all know that what they did was wrong : They kept it secret.

I know.

---

_________________________
I got nothing.

The Guardian wrote:

How is her question a valid one? People would feel the same regardless - the bandit part of things is a red herring in her hypothetical.

Possibly but not everyone, check that, *most people* I know are not that rational. Most people would go into a rant about the bandit who "shouldn't have been on the course in the first place" and judging by how litigious the US is I would say that there would be a good chance of a lawsuit. Whether it would win or not is a different story.

---

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Not directed at you Dan, just adding to your sentiment...


Last month an athlete (John Doe) placed an order w/ PBN for a can of Cytomax.

We've heard through the grapevine, that he's no longer going to use that canister, & has since given it to another athlete, so they can use it.

It is PBN policy, that the athlete who originally purchased the product, must also be the one who consumes it.

As such, if anyone can furnish us with the name of John Doe's friend, I'd appreciate it as we would like to punish both of them & institute a 1-year ban on both John & his friend, from consuming any Cytomax for the next 12-months.

</sarcasm>

---

---

Brian Shea
http://www.PersonalBestNutrition.com
Open-Water/Masters Swimming at the Jersey Shore:
Monmouth County NJ Ocean Swim/Masters Workouts

I would punish them by making them consume the Cytomax. That stuff is awful.

---

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

So if you can take photos you can't be injured and can race an IM.....nice logic! Also if the guy is rich enough to buy 12 IM races and get other people to race them so he can do Kona it's mostly likey to be a complete and utter one off and imagine how badly he would race never having done a full IM himself. This suggestion is as ridiculous as you comment about taking pictures.

You're ridiculous! Blasphemy!

---

_________________________
I got nothing.

I think you should have locked this thread after this very reasonable post. Not because I want the thread and the debate locked, but because I don't want your reasonable response to dissappear into the other 330 posts on this thread.

Dev

Never purchased a non-refundable airline ticket? Many are also non-transferable. Miss the flight, you're out the ticket and cash. This was more prevalent in the past. However, it is worth noting the relative financial stability of Southwest Airlines, who have the most liberal policies in the industry, as compared to, well...pretty much all other airlines.

You never would have survived the 60's with that board up your ass.
And that fresh mouth. You must also support red light cameras. Right?

Makes me wonder why WTC doesn't ask for a "head shot" without hats, glasses, etc. along with original registration. Seems like everyone has a camera of cell phone they can send the pic to their computer if they are filling it out online (and not on a computer), then save it, then attach it via a browse/insert button. Then when they send it with the attached photo, they (WTC) will know if the pic is even looks remotely close to the person who entered originally, should a dispute of illegal transfer or substituting as in this case. That seems like a fix for WTC should they insist on maintaining their no transfer/refund policy. If one guy who entered is about 25 years old & the dude racing it is about 60 (from race photos or a "secondary photo check at registration), it would is obvious.