"have been told by very good attorney that waivers arent as effective in court as many, including myself, believe."

depending on the state, you either have a good, or very ill informed, attorney. there are "waiver-friendly" states and those that are not. calif is a waiver-friendly state, and waivers are pretty rock solid.

however, there was a supreme court decision, if memory serves, a couple of years ago that said that waivers don't protect against "gross negligence". this is a pretty high standard. hard to prove gross negligence.

insurers can insure against whatever they want to insure against. you decide the policy provisions, underwriting requirements, etc., and you hang your shingle and sell policies. in point of fact no RD insured under USAT actually buys an insurance policy. they are listed as additional insureds to USAT's policy. do you really believe that USAT is going to leave itself bare of coverage for any bandit or transfer that sues it? i would be shocked if that were the case, and i doubt it is the case. USAT's folks are welcome to post here and disabuse me of my error.

however, the waiver is so vital as a defense that it would be reckless behavior to NOT require waivers to be signed. but no RD can protect against a bandit, and i would be surprised if defense and coverage were not afforded a sanctioning RD who was sued by a bandit. i'd certainly like to know if this is NOT covered.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

You don't need to assume there is overselling. Look at Lake Placid. Right now, the website shows around 3000 athletes registered. Check out how high the athlete numbers go up to when bib numbers are published; maybe in the 2500 range? The rest were the ones that canceled out sometime between when they registered and when the partial refund date hit. Then take a look at the number that actually start the race; this will tell you how many paid, and got no refund.
Again, if you don't like a race organization's refund policy, then you can choose to take your business elsewhere. The rate at which sellouts are happening doesn't seem to be getting that much longer, so the system must be working.

As for insurance, at least for the US races, WTC sanctions with USAT, and uses their insurance. I don't think it's a customized insurance between WTC and the insurance company. And as for the opinion of "what's the harm in giving someone else my entry without an official transfer, with new waivers", here's the type of lawsuit that can happen:

IIRC, this happened about 10 years ago at a west coast triathlon:
- Athlete A registers, picks up packet and signs waivers
- Athlete A gives packet to athlete B, who bandits
- Car driver ignores police officer, drives onto course and hits B
- B files for insurance coverage under USAT's policy, and is denied
- B sues the race director, USAT and others. It goes to court, B loses.

Even though the plaintiff didn't win, there was still the time spent in preparation and testimony, which isn't free. And if B was hit by a driver not associated with the race, why did B sue everyone associated with the race? Because a lawyer saw a chance at a good payout? This is one of the reasons that race directors and USAT go after both buyers and sellers of illegal transfers, to show that they are putting forth best efforts to make sure that only those that have properly both entered the race, and acknowledged the risks in a waiver, are those that are racing.

Here we have an issue where it's not black or white, and you want to portray it that way.

There's a lot of gray in every every facet of life.

I've already stated what rules are morally just in this thread (in my opinion). This one simply isn't so.

Knowing that when you race you feel the product is virtually damaged because of bandits and not by a flawed organizers decision to not protect you from all circumstances sounds like your own issue.

I don't condone drafting, and the USADA should go back to be an organization based in science (spend their money improving their testing) and not let cavalier attorneys instead waste those taxpayer dollars chasing trophies based on personal vendettas and public career building agendas.

Good try on trying to summarize my past posts into one sentence coffin nails. If I was in your shoes I might feel it's time to rely on things other than the merits of this debate to save face as well. Your moral high ground is clouded by the greed of a business and your last effort is to blame bandits for "hypothetical product damage."

What if the guy who got the bib was slower and finished behind you meaning you did get a slot but the original guy was faster than you and if he had raced it would mena you didn't get KQ? Just interested if you would still feel so strongly. Personally I don't think we should do it in WTC races because of the qualy issues that could arise but I fully understand why people would do it, WTC create the situation themselves being being so rigid. I read someone who said it was an insurance issue, if this is the case why can we swap slot in Europe then?

Do I get pissed, no not really I have far more important things to worry about like my own race. I'm sure in every single major race I have done there have been plenty of people with swapped bibs but what can I do and what does calling out one person do? I'll tell you what it does, nothing. I raised an issue about a blatant cheat in Sri Lanka earlier this year with the WTC and they said they would ask him to be honest and tell them if he cheated....guess what, he didn't and they did jack about it and we were talking about a podium position and the way he cheated was startlingly obvious

In general, (and this is not legal advice), the fact that a bandit did not sign a waiver, is, IMHO, not going to materially impact the liability of an RD.

I believe this argument is actually three camps - discussion about how to make transfers work; any violation of administrative policies is cheating; and cheating is only cheating if it garners a competitive advantage.

What do the "all rule breaking is cheating" people do with a situation wherein we have identical twins, who always have the exact same race times, who wear the same kit, ride the same bike, and use the same nutrition, and who each have no medical conditions. Can they transfer their bib? It is certaintly against the rules, but exactly what is the harm (assuming there is no insurance/waiver risk)? If you agree there is no harm, then why prevent it?

It is a stupid hypothetical, but it is useful to explore the limitations of the "rules are rules" position.

I don't think anyone is arguing that offical transfers would be an insurance / waiver problem. Just that unofficial ones are, or at least might be.

If the WTC allowed the transfer then this thread wouldn't exist. It doesn't and that is what raises the insurance/waiver concern.

 Lautieri v. Bae,17 Mass. L. Rep. 4 (2003). It was a Massachusetts case but not a Supreme Court case as best I can tell. Regardless, the provider was found grossly negligent where, in the bicycling leg of a triathlon, the race director failed to heed a number of industry safety standards regarding intersections – leaving the intersection at which the incident occurred open to automobile traffic, uncontrolled by police or volunteers, with no warning signage for contestants or drivers, and unmonitored.

~~ k

Whether it's for a KQ slot or not I want to race and achieve accurate placement. The BOP racers have as much a right to accurate placement as those competing for a KQ.

I'm not that freaked out by this it is a minor infraction but it is fun and interesting to watch the discussion.

One take-away might be: If you decide to break the rules don't talk about it.

Another might be: Don't be a effing liar when you sign the entry forms and waivers if you know you're going to pass the bib to someone else. Because, face it, at that point you are a liar.

The ability to transfer entries in a blind system need to happen at WTC races. Unfortunately I don't see that WTC has any impetus to provide that service outside of general goodwill towards their customers. Something they tend to be short in when it affect their pocketbook. Any debate on whether the situation at IMAZ is "cheating" is little more then semantics and pretty pointless.

As things stand in the sport now though those actions went against a set of rules that exist for a reason. There are plenty of reasons outside of the insurance one that passing off a bib is a problem. There's the FOP podium and KQ issue, the IM Legacy program someone else raised, the 500,000th finisher at IMFL could have been affected by something like this. Some people have the ability to take hindsight into a situation and say that because no one was really damaged by the actions then they don't matter. Although the assumption that slower people don't care about there finishing place in a race or want to actually compete against people in the correct AG is somewhat insulting. If that's how they look at things then so be it although it's a pretty self-centered viewpoint to believe you can simply do whatever you want with zero effect on anyone else.

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Bingo.

I wonder if there are highly established races (competitors to WTC races) in Europe that allow bib transfers / slot swaps, etc. And this is why the WTC has a different policy there?

Once the culture expects things a certain way , greed no longer can steer the sheep.

Whatever the reason, it's too bad here in the US, it's the sheep defending this policy. To the point of calling out others, self policing to the point where bib sharing goes so far underground that you think you've eradicated it (yet only strengthen it making it more permanent than the WTC's grip on refusing to let it happen in the first place).

The best scenario is this thread and it's potential to get the WTC to come clean with their policy since so much has been outed here for so many to read and spread.

Happy spreading and Happy Thanksgiving!

You might want to re-think your statement because there is no one on here defending the policy. It's actually possible for people to disagree with the policy and believe it should change while still following it due to the negative effect not following it does or could possibly have on their fellow race participants. It could be a major effect or minor one like at IMAZ but some people like yourself feel they are too important to take that into consideration.

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Telling me that it's insulting that a guy who finished 356th in his age group might have finished 355th - yet because of my actions his 355th position can't be seen into fruition isn't even ground for discussion. This is a bleeding heart travesty that all triathletes can only hope doesn't ever happen. :/

Maybe the WTC can start drug testing the top 10 in every age group so these numbers REALLY mean something.

If you've ever raced, place doesn't matter to a single degree once your out of the top 10. It's the times / splits that you'll be racing against or holding as a valued takeaway from the event.

Summary:
1. WTC change policy to allow slot swaps
2. Start drug testing so Race Position Discussion Becomes A Valid Topic... and Travis never has to play the worlds smallest violin for the guy who actually finished 355th in his age group ever again

"Maybe the WTC can start drug testing the top 10 in every age group so these numbers REALLY mean something." (CIearwater)

Agreed.

I like your contributions to this thread.
Again, thank you!

" It was a Massachusetts case but not a Supreme Court case as best I can tell"

actually, i went back and looked, it was a calif supreme court case that i was remembering. it was specifically the case of the city of santa barbara and a 14yo disabled girl, in one of their city pools. i don't know how the specific case came out. the case as i remember it was just establishing that someone had standing to sue the city in case of gross negligence. it's city of santa barbara v superior court.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I wonder if Clearwater is the person in question? His attitude certainly fits the description of someone who would do an illegal transfer of a race bib.

Also there is no grey area here, its black and white. Like the posted speed limit and going a few mph over, alot of people do it (myself included), is it breaking the law, Yes. If you get a ticket for speeding I would like to see you try to justify it to the police officer, I could imagine what it would sound like.--

-- I was driving in the grey area
-- its ok, its not hurting anyone

I do care what place I finish and I'm not in the top 10. Especially inside the last few miles.

Do we know if the seller in this instance charged a premium over the actual price for the entry? That would be interesting.

Maybe a little black market could be created by some unscrupulous person. I'm sure the policy addresses this as well as everything else already stated.

So Rover24 - Your the cop who pulls someone over doing 37 in a 35? Answer the question. Rules are rules remember?

If you don't pull the person over, your admitting there is grey area. If you pull the person over, your a guy who needs more friends.

BTW, if you read the entire thread I've stated I would trade a bib, have traded a bib (for a running race - that allowed transfers), have had a bib put on ice for a year (by a race that allows such things) and would take a bib or give a bib to/from someone else in a WTC event in an act of Corporate Civil Disobedience.

"illegal . . ." (Rover24)

Really???

They do get an accurate placement. They race against those who show up and their end position is what it is. What are they going to do? Go through life complaining that they would have finished 2200th instead of 2201th if someone worse than them had taken the slot? What about the guy who would have pushed them to 2202th if his internet connection had not crapped out during registration? Maybe they should just accept that unless someone cheated on course, they got a fair assessment of their training and athletic ability.

OK, is unauthorized better.

Much better. Thank you!

Leaderman - So care about your position. Yet know that the WTC could make that place be more than just some phony number by:

1. Allowing Bib Swaps / Transfers / Forwards
2. Implementing Drug Testing

I hate to be the bearer of bad news here, but it's highly possible (considering the 2 above points) that none of your finishing places in large races were accurate to the single degree. The further down the totem pole you are the more inaccurate your "place" is (simple math).

Who are you going to blame? Or does it matter until the Organizer respects your wishes?

Im not a cop, I do speed and have gotten my fair share of tickets, I accept the ticket because I broke the law, I dont try to argue if the ticket was just or not.

The point is, if you want to not follow the rules be prepared for the consequences, and dont get angry when the rules dont bend when you need them to.

Oh I love this argument. This is the one where we just assume everyone is breaking the rules so who cares and just blame someone else and stick my head in the sand. This sounds vaguely like some of your posts on the LA threads.

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Avoiding post 237 for a reason?