General impressions from their videos, interviews, articles, ...

Not very precise info, however, this is why I say "apparently".

Comparatively, IMO (again, no proof) much more intensity (time proportion, intensity level) than the Iden "Arild plan" (this one being quite clear).

Well I think your general impressions are wrong because the Brownlees are more renowned for a high volume training approach rather than a high intensity one.

My point is : AT training plan comparatively to Iden training plan

Do you have precise insight on AT training plan ?

No I don't, and nor do you ;-)

I have what I saw, hear, and read.

And for me, despite lack of precision, it seems clear enough to compare to Iden training plan. And draw some hypothetic conclusions :-)

Not a problem for me if you don't agree.

What is your guess on AT perf in Kona ?
At least we will be able to compare this :-)

Feel free to draw whatever conclusions you want from your imagined Brownlee training plan! ;-)

I have no idea how he will perform in Kona, anything from a podium to complete meltdown and DNF is possible. It will be interesting to find out though.

A lot of the manipulation in metabolic profiles *may* happen under extension of speed of specific or race related targeted workouts.

For example a 4+ hour ride with 4x1hour at .85-.88 with 3 minutes easy between has a lot more value than a six hour sniffing the roses and taking selfie rides at .5-.7. Same with extension of long run with intensity say long with 4x5km descending M pace.

Speaking specifically to AG not Elite. For example FOP older athletes at just under 11 hours is different in terms of inputs than someone racing with surges for 8 hours.

Maurice

Hello

Are you talking % of FTP ?

If yes, and if my interpretations of Arild explanations are right (2x if, you will notice :-), the "Norwegian plan" for elite is around :

- heavy volume (up to 38 hours / week)

- 15% of time : long intervals at around 2,5 / 2,8 mmol/L lactate, so about 90% FTP (low sweetspot work, near 50/50 glycol/fat energy consumption). Not far from what you describe. This is probably a bit faster but less long than your 4x1h.

- 85% of time : around 1 mmol/L lactate, so about 65% / 70% FTP (base endurance, below maxfat point). What you call "sniffing roses and taking selfie". Not sure Arild will appreciate :-)

- very little FTP (and above) work

Apparently, this combination works.... as proven in ITU and 70.3 WC (and world speed record). Some other plans may work also, of course.

My point was :
this plan is very centered on pushing fat consumption, much less on glycogen use.
And I have the intuition that this is where some other plans have it wrong, pushing too much on the glycogen use. But this is just my non fact proven intuition... plus, my english is not good, cause I'm french...

We are on a slow twitch forum, not the "fact based biomechanics and physiology forum", so I feel free to talk about my lousy intuitions :-)

Whereas what is called the "Norwegian plan" is a relative success, the results by themselves can't prove this plan to be better than other plans. It is a relative success because coming from nowhere in terms of country results, a group of three guys have achieved two ITU wins and a 70.3 win in the last three years. Is this better than the method the Joel Filliol squad is using? Because in contrast to those results, in the same time frame the top three guys from his squad have, what, like 15 ITU wins and the last three world titles?

Aren't we getting stuck with the profiles some athletes had a few years ago? I am thinking Brownlee and Gomez. You say AB raised the bar of 70.3, yet he hasn't won any of his two entries. So somebody raised the bar even more. Also winning his next ITU race as you also say would be a tough call, considering he hasn't won one, not even podiumed, since Cozumel in 2016. Over the top of my head, he was 30 something at Leeds, fourth at the European games, and did really bad at his last Commonwealth games.

I think both are well past their prime and we are over selling them. But the only thing you can't predict is the future, so who knows...

4th was 2018 Euro's

2019 Euro's AB was 1st


I agree about them being past their prime, but I think to monty's point his presence I think is going to have a huge impact on how other's are forced to race. You don't have to win to actually change how the race unfolds. You can have huge impact on others simply by being AB.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Sure,

I think it’s fun to discuss various pre race opinions etc,

Just like other world class teams like Dan lorang/Frodeno, Tilburs/Cody Beals, Sutton/Ryf, Talbot Cox and Lionel Sanders there is no doubt that Alrild/Iden make a great combo, results are there.

I think the thing though is that Iden isn’t signing up tomorrow and “basing” his way to a Kona victory in 3weeks.

Also when speaking specifically to RER (relationship between co2/vo2) and testing we need to understand how it drifts with duration and event specific demands, with blood lactate and running off the bike we need to understand how high residual BL levels are at 3:30 marathon pace vs 3:50....and for how long, ie at what point do they normalize? At what opening speed?

My only point was that unless AB has low iron or some other weird condition his base/fat max/metabolic starting point for specific trading is likely “good enough”.

Having said that I think he is going to drill it in the first 10 km at 35-36 minutes (run) and go backwards from there.

Maurice

Can't wait for this showdown. Based on his 70.3 performance (and recent footage of him training in Arizona), I suspect he's pinning more than we think on his Kona debut - besides, it's not like a Brownlee to go into an event as a "learning experience".

I suspect Kona this year will be a straight up running race.

Sure,

I think it’s fun to discuss various pre race opinions etc,

Just like other world class teams like Dan lorang/Frodeno, Tilburs/Cody Beals, Sutton/Ryf, Talbot Cox and Lionel Sanders there is no doubt that Alrild/Iden make a great combo, results are there.

I think the thing though is that Iden isn’t signing up tomorrow and “basing” his way to a Kona victory in 3weeks.

Also when speaking specifically to RER (relationship between co2/vo2) and testing we need to understand how it drifts with duration and event specific demands, with blood lactate and running off the bike we need to understand how high residual BL levels are at 3:30 marathon pace vs 3:50....and for how long, ie at what point do they normalize? At what opening speed?

My only point was that unless AB has low iron or some other weird condition his base/fat max/metabolic starting point for specific trading is likely “good enough”.

Having said that I think he is going to drill it in the first 10 km at 35-36 minutes (run) and go backwards from there.

Maurice[/quote]
This made me actually laugh out loud. But you're wrong, the world class team is Lionel Sanders/Lionel Sanders.

I agree with potentially changing the dynamics.

Regarding the euros, the fourth was in the European games, sort of a European Olympics. It was a highly contested event, but without Mola, and some other top guns. The euros you mention, my bad, but it was a below world cup level event.

I thought Talbot was a videographer, didn't realize he was also a coach.

2019 Euros had a WTS winner in 3rd. (Geens)
Van Riel was 6th (he was 5th in the WTS series)
Look at the results. It was as competitive as a World Cup.

Alistar also won a world cup this year.

yeah, he's got a habit of getting off the bike and hitting sub-3 minute/km pace for a little while. . . feasible and maybe even necessary in short course, but could be deadly for his chances in IM racing. . .

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____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

I almost don’t even think it matters how “stupid” he races to begin. I mean I think this is akin to parents tempting their kid with candy only to punish them when they take the candy.

I think he’s going to race at times stupid but I think it’s just going to be part of the learning curve that he either figures out or simply is stuck racing IM with no chance of winning.

So I think he’s going to race poorly before he can nail it especially with his racing mindset/background. And I don’t even think it matters if he races poorly this year. He gets some mulligans in my book.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

yeah, he's got a habit of getting off the bike and hitting sub-3 minute/km pace for a little while. . . feasible and maybe even necessary in short course, but could be deadly for his chances in IM racing. . . //

But here is the thing everyone seems to be forgetting, this isnt his first ironman. Sure there was no swim, but that is irrelevant to his race, in fact it is a huge benefit he didnt get. But he did some crazy ass ride in horrible conditions, probably putting out silly power all over the place. Then he slogged in horrible running conditions with a dying 2;52. So we know he can do the distances, and even blowing up, beats most pros marathon times. His only issue is going to be racing in the exact opposite extreme. Heat has a way of just sapping some folks, won't know until he is actually out there.


But with his extra months of focused training, and some heat training, I'd expect a Nice type race out of him. In the mix, mild pacing errors here and there, and slogging in with a run maybe 15 minutes slower than he is capable, like a low 2;50 something. That ought to get him top 5, maybe even top 3 is there is a big split on the lead bikers and main group.


I'm excited to see him race, and it will be fun to see what he does in the test swim on Saturday before. He is good enough to win that swim, certainly showed he can swim on Josh's feet if he wants to.

Yeah, I was just being a Smart Ass with that one.

Maurice

The question for me is not if he will be in shape (to podium) on the day but whether or not he will make a mistake...more specifically in the opening 10km of the run.

Unless something weird happens, imo he gets off the bike in a position to win.

Like, I don’t know the guy at all so no idea outside of his interviews what his mentality will be in the heat of the moment.

Maurice

more specifically in the opening 10km of the run. //

Ali is a really smart racer, and I think that is one of the hard lessons he just learned in Nice. He underestimated the leader, put in a surge to catch and pass him, and then paid for that later. If Iden was not going to be on that day, it may have worked and he would continue to think this a good strategy. But getting spanked has a way of making one a bit more reflective, and listening to a couple of his interviews since that race, he admits that was a mistake. And he knows there are guys just like that going to Kona, and it is new territory for him, so I expect he will not race aggressive, but use what pace he believes he can hold. Of course in a marathon that is really tricky, it will feel super slow for him to actually run low 6 minute pace, when his is more used to 5 to 5;20 paces..But that's what watches are for....

Throwing down the gauntlet like that was not smart racing. Needs to learn to CTFO!!!

Wurf's looking pretty solid in Italy. 4.09 bike after a 46.30 swim (wetsuit) - and running well so far.
Interesting to see if he backs off the second half but it would be great for the race if he brings this sort of form to Hawaii in 3 weeks.