Where did you see this?

Latest news was winning ETU. https://www.bbc.com/...t/triathlon/48490820

Sounds like he's focused on ITU yet. I won't believe they're serious until he and his brother are training and racing in an IM together.

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Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.

Ironman FB page:

podium

https://twitter.com/...816261877817345?s=20

This is AMAZING! I am also racing Ireland, can't wait now!!!

I think Johnny has said he'll be moving onto 70.3 after Tokyo.

I wasn't expecting the news regarding Ali - saw it on Instagram this morning. I'm wondering if Kona this year is essentially a test run for attempting the Olympics / 70.3 / Kona triple in 2020?

https://www.tri247.com/...ironman-ireland-cork

Exciting, my best guess is he's still playing the options.

If he goes well at Leeds and feels he has a chance of getting sufficient 10k run speed to have a shot at Tokyo I'd bet he'll go all in for that and leave Kona on the shelf.

He may then race Cork (a race that will suit him down to the ground) just as a test run; maybe he'll then look at his chances of both and make the call.

He's always said that Kona and Olympic gold were either/or - he couldn't go for both in the same season and would have to decide a long way out which. I'd always read that as 'Kona after Tokyo' since 2021 KOna is plausible, 2024 Olympic Golc is not.

let the speculation begin....

I just had a look at the Tokyo timetable - The men's and mixed relay events will be done by 1st August - that's 3 months before Kona, and the 70.3 Worlds aren't until late November.

The 3 events are spread over 5 months which is a lot more than I expected them to be.

huh.

a few stray thoughts:

-this is terribly exciting if true, only because it satisfies the sort of bar-bet-banter that sports fans love. "how would ali do at IM?" well, now we'll know.

-ali has a long history of signing up for lots of stuff and then deciding later whether he'll show. so i'd say it's even chances on a DNS now.

-i'm just not sure this is his best play. i love the guy and his style of racing. but given everything, i'm not certain the full distance is his strength. if i were his coach i might suggest he top out at half IM and decide to absolutely own that distance for a while. the full is about patience, sitting in, etc. - he's shown a problem with that in his 1/2 racing, and it'll be magnified at the full. at ireland he might just go off the front all day, but that approach won't work at kona.

-i'm ambivalent about his chances at tokyo; not sure the fire is still there, though, and it might not represent the best use of his energy.

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____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

Spoke to him a few months ago. He will do it. Worst kept secret I thought. Oh well.

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I’m a big fan of his and have some knowledge of his very impressive history, do you think it’s possible or just hopeful.

My personal thought is that he pushes himself absurdly hard, which will either take him to big places in this race or he will hurt himself trying.

I certainly HOPE he pushes Lange/Frodeno though.

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Dan Mayberry
Amateur a lot of things, professional a few things.

I'd expect him to be a front pack swimmer, maybe 2nd off the bike after Wurf, but he will blow up in the heat on the run.
Either DNF or 5th-10th.

I'm from northern England too, we don't like the heat and humidity!

I can certainly relate to that! I’m 180lbs!

That is my hunch as well, although I’d love to wrong.

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Dan Mayberry
Amateur a lot of things, professional a few things.

Poor Tom Bishop or Yee (my guess is Yee makes it over Bishop). One of them likely gets pushed to side for AB to race Tokyo and he’s racing IM’s as the buildup. I don’t know if that’s arrogance or he’s that burned out of giving a flip about ITU; he is 2 time champ so he’s really telling everyone it’s his way.

I guess if he truly tries both events (as I said I think this Tokyo decision could “drag” on til May 2020), we’ll see what specificity allows for. Of course Kona 2019 or even 2020 doesn’t truly matter. That event is every year so he can have some learning years or he may just hate it all together who knows.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

This will be great. I hope he shows up with no injury. How is Frodo doing. We need a Frodo + Brownlee tag team to T2 with a few others who are "Macca Style Acquired Helpers" to distance the Blue Train that no doubt Drietz will soft pedal around the big island to set up Mr. 140 lbs Kona magic man. If Mr. 140lbs Kona magic man gets to T2 close, he's has almost 8 kilos less weight on the other guys meaning he's running around generating 100 watts less heat throught the lava fields at the same pace as the bigger guys. They have to get him isolated on the bike, but hard to do if Drietz is soft pedaling and keeping a group intact.

I don't know how he will cope with the heat. But his 2nd place in South Africa after a long injury lay off was impressive. He ran a 1.07? He'll be in the front pack with the swim, have a solid bike and will be in the top 3 for a good portion of the run. I'd expect top 7. It really just comes down to who can perform better in the heat and wind.

I'm guessing this is what he's thinking, I'd rather see him in Tokyo though than Kona.

Pretty ambitious from Alistair. Within a month (?) he will try to win a sprint race and IM! I'm not sure how you train for both. My guess

My prediction is that Alistair tries to ride solo off the front in Leeds so that Jonny can have a free ride?

My thoughts are along the lines of yours. Exciting. If he does it. Will he get hurt training for it or during.

While fast, he can train to the point of injury. My money would be on the durable IM champions who have completed several IMs.

Big fan of the Brownlees and Gomez. Wish them success in IM as it would be good for both IM and ITU This just feels like an Ouch in the making before he gets to the finish line. Would like to wrong here.

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Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.

I think if Frodo and Alistair show up healthy, Lange will only be a contender for 3rd. Last year there were no uber bikers who also can run, but seems like this year we will have 2 at least. I think it is more likely that Alistair and Frodo come to T2 with Wurf.
Frodo seems to be doing okay, ran 1:12 this weekend but slowed down towards the end prob because of his big lead, we will see for sure in Frankfurt.

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Terrible Tuesday’s Triathlon

I feel like he is racing like an age grouper at this point running the gamut of distances trying to decide which one he likes most

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

...except he is racing the Gamut of distances to see which World Titles he can realistically win in order to build a GOAT Palmares....

Ireland isn't going to give us of an indication of how he'd do in Kona unfortunately.
New slow course and unlikely to be any sort of competition there. Also as mentioned, completely different conditions to hawaii.

Seems an odd move really. He looks like he's starting to get some short course speed back finally after last years long course inflicted injuries. Would make more sense to target tokyo and tick off 70.3 Gold in Nice on the way.

Still time for a kona attempt in 2021

Pretty sure that a podium finish in Leeds this weekend earns both brothers their Tokyo slot. GB's 3rd slot is decided on Leeds and the Tokyo test event (September?) I believe.

Agree with you about Yee being the 3rd - the commentary for Yokohama mentioned that the main group deliberately tried to distance him on the bike because they were so concerned about his run. (shame the same cant be said about his swim though!)

Leeds is not an auto qualifier for any Rio medalists. For JB, AB and Holland they can auto qualify with a top 3 at Tokyo test event. Everyone else had to auto qualify with top 3 Yoko 2019 + Tokyo test event.

It is an race that is factored into the decision of the board that *could* get you nominated by the board, but it's not automatic.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Well, if he wants to be GOAT of all triathlon then he needs to go long, he is already arguably GOAT of ITU (I like Gomez but I do think two OGs + two ITU titles > 5 ITU titles + OS), but both Gomez and Jan have better palmares across all distances which means he only has one choice if he wants to be ultimate triathlon GOAT. I think he is struggling with loving ITU while considering his legacy

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

But what it does give him is...
- a full distance bit of experience
- a relatively straight qualification for Kona (relatively - he still has to finish and finish 1st !). So he then has the option to going to Kona. Certainly easier than winning Frankfurt for example.
- no long travel problems
- no jetlag
- less likely to get heat exhaustion, so CAN pick up again on shrter distances pretty quickly.
-

- less likely to get heat exhaustion, so CAN pick up again on shrter distances pretty quickly.

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The only pushback I have with any of this; this isn't how you win medals or even top spots in Kona. Again I don't know his specific training, I just see his race calendar and results. But this seemingly half in, half out process seems to me to lack any specificity. Now of course he's already won 2 Gold's, so ITU is probaly boring to him now. Again, we don't even know if he's committing to Tokyo or not, it seems as if it's still up in the air. Maybe he does it and maybe he doesn't.


But of course even doing ITU specific training but racing the IM distance, it's going to put him in great shape. I just dont think it's ideal training specificity. But again, racing Kona for handful of years as "learning" is pretty smart. But of course everyone is going to go crazy over the "battle" we'll see with him in the race, but I'm kinda over here like "pump the brakes" on the actual Kona race day execution and results in the early years. I said the same for Gomez, let him go race Kona, get his ass handed to him the last half of the marathon and learn from it. That's pretty much what we saw happen, that bike effort likely cooked him just a wee bit + conditions in Kona, etc.




ETA: But again AB is at a point where it doesnt really matter what path he chooses. Kona is a yearly event so he can sorta show up and learn from it with not the ideal training leading into it and then just race again next year. And since he's already the greatest ITU and double gold medalist, Tokyo result is *meaningless* other than really the MTR result for him. I mean of course he'd love to do as little as possible and win a 3rd medal, I just dont think he is so concerned about his training leading into Tokyo- IE why he's even racing an IM.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Why can Lionel not be in peak condition?

Can you do some Ali videos, please!!!!!

Texting with Ali now. We are going to try and set something up. Stay tuned

but both Gomez and Jan have better palmares across all distances //

I think you are getting ahead of yourself putting Gomez into the same zip code as Frodo. Gomez has done a lot of successful 1/2 ironman, not really any full ones as of yet. Frodo likewise has a lot of great 1/2 distance races to his resume, and many ironman wins, including the big kahuna. To me, Gomez is only a fraction ahead of Ali at ironman distance, just because he has done a couple. Ali has done enough 1/2 to show he is dominant and competitive with anyone on the day too, just not as many as the others..


I like what he is doing, its funny to me that so many get their panties in a bunch because he might choose to do olympic distance and ironman in the same year. It is the same sport, and you dont need a whole year to switch focus from one distance to the other, a few months is plenty. Its how we all did it back in the day when you had to race all distances. And the best guys seemed to still be the best guys, racing all distances within a year. Do folks need some experience moving up, absolutely, but not always. Some of the greats just move over seamlessly, and only way to know is to do...

I guess it's going to be a pretty good indication if he blows up in Ireland 😀 if he does well at least the Brownlee fan boys will still have something to cling to before he melts down in Kona in October.

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What's your CdA?

Okay so he won’t be doing Kona.

He won’t even win cork. Have you guys seen the start list?

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i'm just not sure this is his best play. i love the guy and his style of racing. but given everything, i'm not certain the full distance is his strength. if i were his coach i might suggest he top out at half IM and decide to absolutely own that distance for a while. the full is about patience, sitting in, etc. - he's shown a problem with that in his 1/2 racing, and it'll be magnified at the full. at ireland he might just go off the front all day, but that approach won't work at kona


It seems only in triathlon that you can double or quadruple the distance (say from Olympic) and, we just assume that, the same athlete will be a world beater at the longer race.

It's not ALWAYS the case. We have a recent example with Javier Gomez. Historically another GOAT that comes to mind is the great Simon Lessing - could never really figure out Full IM racing. Some just don't have the physiology, the durability or the mind-set for going this long.

On PAPER Ali Brownlee should do very well at a full IM, but strange things do happen beyond, I would say, the 6 - 7 hr mark in an IM that until you are in a race and have been going that hard for that long, you never really know how it's going to go!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

It is the same sport, and you dont need a whole year to switch focus from one distance to the other, a few months is plenty. Its how we all did it back in the day when you had to race all distances.


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Except it's not the same sport anymore. The specificity that is happening in ITU and then in IM is showing that they are now more than ever 2 different sports. But again AB totally can get a pass with either direction cus what's it matter if he doesnt win....he's cemented his legacy with the 2 gold's. And Kona being an every year event, he can have some developing race years. But what I'm pointing out that you don't get to put your foot in and out and win in either pathway. That's just how good the competition is he is going to be racing against in 2019 and beyond.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I think you are right about some successful fast short course guys struggle at longer distances. I think u r wrong about Gomez and Lessing though. Lessing struggled after his short course career primarily due to injuries and not a lack of ability at long course...although he might have been poorly suited to Kona.

Gomez has hardly struggled at long course, two World Championship titles, beating Frodeno at Mt. Tremblant and an on fire Kanute at Chatanooga, amongst a tonne of others. Gomez was also second to a phenomenal Currie at Cairns and 11th in Kona on your debut against an incredible field is not horrible. It is exceptionally rare to knock Kona out the park on a first go. I think Gomez may lack the fire for iron distance racing otherwise why house give up the iron distance to go after Olympic gold on a course not suited to him.

Umm you need to go back and look at Javiers results.

Didn't he do Ironman Cairns and break the course record that was held by Luke McKenzie when he was in his prime?

Javier is a freak.

I don't know if Ali will go well in a few weeks or not.

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Definitely some formidable names on the start list, but the majority of the super big names (Vanhoenacker and McMahon) are somewhat aging stars in the sport. If Ali has a day that matches his expectations at like an 80% accuracy, I think he'll take it.

People seem to think that Alistair is so concerned with legacy, the guy is 31 years old. Guys like Jan and Javi should have far more fear about legacy since they are in the later stages of being a prominent athlete in the sport. Alistair could skip Kona for the Olympics and still have several years of legitimate shots to win.

Ali is almost the prototypical height and weight to win Kona. I think Ali could have a shot to make Patrick Lange look like a jogger in Kona. This guy is not only a phenomenal athlete, he's a gamer. Ali races every race aggressively and boldly. Ali also doesn't sit in on the bike, which will probably hurt him early on in his long-distance days. As Ali gets more strength from lots of base work, Ali's bike strength will really become an asset in long-distance.

We all bow at the church of Frodeno, Alistair has all the makings to be even better than Frodeno. Ali is going long earlier than Jan and his track record is actually more accomplished than Jan when he made the jump.

Barring significant injury, Ali is poised to cement his name in triathlon history above the likes of Jan, Javi, Crowie, Macca, and may put Mark Allen in the passenger seat.

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Team Zoot 2023

Personally, I won't be high fiving anyone just yet that AB is going to Kona. When he is on the start line I will believe it.

A high of 60F, that's heat for you?

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

If you study run mechanics..... I’d wager “ironman world” should be WAY more concerned if/when Jonny Brownlee decides Ironman looks fun.... my 2c

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David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com

Definitely not only triathlon, just look at Mo Farah, 3:28 1500 and then a 2:05 marathon which is 30x the distance. Same goes for Kipchoge, Choge, Bekele, Geb, Rupp to name a few.
In fact I would argue the contrary, especially seeing as Olympic tri is a long event in its own and largely aerobic. Sure the athletes coming from ITU likely will have an adaptation period learning pacing and nutrition, but in general the people who are great over 2h l, are gonna be great over 8h.

Lastly, for the people saying you can’t train for lc and sc at the same time, look at kejelcha running fast 1500 and HM within weeks, which arguably is a lot more different than sc and lc

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Terrible Tuesday’s Triathlon

I studied AB running away from JB in any important race during the last 10 years.

yeah, the thing is you don't fail at ironman because you run out of breath. you fail at ironman because of nutrition, pacing, gear selection, strategy . . . those little things are really the biggest thing, in an 8-hour race.

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____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

putting in a quarter-mile kick at the end of a 5 or 10k, yes. but that's a different thing from a (relatively) slow and steady marathon at the end of an IM.

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____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

Macca might disagree - remember his "olympic dream"?
Ali wouldn't go to Tokyo to make up the numbers. Whether he can still get the leg speed to match Luis, Mola, Schoeman etc is another matter

I am aware of that, however that still doesn’t explain why he wouldn’t succeed? Obviously gear selection is not an issue, and for sure he will have to learn better nutrition strategies, but he has a good team to help him with that. He will learn pacing and strategy just as everyone else, but that still doesn’t explain why people think his ceiling is 70.3. Pointing to run form or biomechanics is also just wrong, since that is impossible to gauge from visuals alone.
Sure, he is injury prone, but his injury risk will go down as he goes long, since he won’t be doing fast quarters.

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Terrible Tuesday’s Triathlon

oh, i'm not saying that this predicts failure. i'm a big brownlee fan and hope he blasts it.

i'm just saying that i think for elite OD athletes, the big shift to IM isn't really about fitness. the strength and depth in the ITU field is just crazy these days. instead, i think the big shift is the stuff i mentioned.

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____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

I'm sorry but you will all have to stop speculating about his motivations for doing this race vs Leeds and Tokyo. Just read what he says about it himself, instead :-)

https://www.thesun.co.uk/...-triathlons-in-2020/

Warning: The Sun is a total shitrag and you might not like some of the other content on the web page.

60F. ??? Scorchio !
We're in shorts and tee shirts at anything about 50F

Sorry for the off topic, but in Newcastle upon Tyne (where I'm from), it has never been recorded above 30°C/86°F ever. It has also been colder than -8°C/17.6°F.
It'll be similar for Leeds. Extreme temperatures aren't our thing!

As for Johnny being the real Ironman in the family, he struggles with the heat just as much. I guess everyone still remembers him being carried over the line by his brother in a hot race.

Lastly, for the people saying you can’t train for lc and sc at the same time, look at kejelcha running fast 1500 and HM within weeks, which arguably is a lot more different than sc and lc

——-
Give me examples in triathlon of athletes going back and forth between IM and ITU within the same year and it working out really really well.

Even Gomez is giving up LC training for next year and a half to focus on Tokyo prep. I’m guessing he goes back to LC post Tokyo.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Macca might disagree - remember his "olympic dream"?//

You mean when he was at the end of his career, well past his sprinting prime?? Listen, you could throw out a whole bunch of names to support your point of view, but it is one person we are talking about here, the greatest sprint triathlete of all time, still within his prime age wise. Mark Allen was able to switch from top sprinter to ironman within the season. As I recall he would take about 4 or 5 months to focus on Kona after a sprint season. He did pretty well. Greg Welch was another that could almost flip a switch from sprint to ironman.


I'm not saying he is going to win Kona, not at all. I just think he can give it a good go, and no one really knows if you are going to be good at that particular venue, until you do it. And sometimes it takes a few starts to know that too. I think Frodo nailed it right away, he just had some bad luck in his first try. Gomez had something going on he needs to figure out, but he got to see what it is all about at least. Maybe it won't be for him, like Lessing, or Spencer, or a lot of world champions that moved up. It will be fun to see if just the distance will suit Ali, without all the Kona variables thrown in. That is kind of the first test, isn't it? Just do 8 hours of solid racing and fueling, with the proper pace, then we can talk about Kona..


I just dont think it is out of the ordinary for him to try this if he chooses, he will be following a long line of great athletes who raced before him. And in his mind, no reason to think that he is any less capable than any of the past champions, in fact, he can believe he can go even further...

Really curious to see how his achilles will not blow up? Especially on long course / marathon.
His achilles have been a problem in the past and I'm wondering how he can maintain his toe running stride.

Umm you need to go back and look at Javiers results.


Oh yes - I considered all of that. Maybe he has not put in the time, and garnered the experience needed to consistently race well at the FULL IM distance.

My point is that, as someone else mentioned, there are WAY more variables involved in the FULL IM.

He is an extraordinary triathlete. What I find odd is that unless you win Kona, you don't get the GOAT moniker - at least here anyway!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

although he might have been poorly suited to Kona.


With the Kona obsessed, this needs to be addressed, and worth talking about. The Kona course all combined, is very selective. If you don't go well in the heat and humidity. If you can't hold BIG sustained watts on the bike. If you can't swim within x-minutes of the main front pack. You are going to be working behind the 8-ball in Kona!

Of course it's the same for everyone, and there's no secret here. EVERYONE knows what it's like. However, I've often asked this question. Take the top-20 from Kona each year and put them on a cooler weather course or one with some decent climbs on the bike and the run - what would the Top-20 look like in those latter scenarios? How different would it be?

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

The only thing I can see getting in the way is his ability to deal with the heat. He's one of the best swimmers, bikers and runners. Not many top guys can tick all 3 boxes, plus he races with such motivation and aggression. Physically, mentally and strategically he's got it. Against the top LC guys in the world he would win in an Ironman, it just might not be Kona. I'd expect him to finish top 5 in his first Kona, most likely podium, but not sure about the win.

Agree with you. Heat won't be much a problem for him in Ireland.

Maybe the IM WC needs to rotate out of Kona so Brownlee and others have a better shot? just kidding a little

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Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.

Gomez just loves to race. You can see it on his face at every event he takes part in.


I'm with you. Personally, I'd like like someone to beat the Germans in Kona.

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From Yorkshire to Kona part 1

Why? What have you got against "the Germans"?

Because they bombed Pearl Harbor?

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

HA! Good one!

It was the Japanese who bombed Pearl Harbour.

Now that Anne Haug is going to Kona there is a good chance Germany will have three or four athletes between the men's and women's podium this year. It will be good to get some different countries into the mix and spice things up. I hope that there will be break through performances from a few athletes and a changing of the guard.

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He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.

Pink?

That was the Japanese for one thing and regardless, I'm pretty sure none of those involved in WWII are currently doing triathlon at that level.
As regards holding a grudge against nationalities for past actions by their governments or their representatives, there are plenty other countries arguably as guilty as Germany and Japan, but for most people it all comes down to perspective and which side their country has been on. Britain, USA, Russia, France, Germany, China, Japan, Mongolia, Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, and plenty others have all been murdering bastards on a massive scale at one time or another. Most, if not all, have also participated in state sponsored slavery, religious intolerance, racism, drug trading, and more.....
If you're going to hold anyone responsible for the historical crimes of their home country, consider where you stand yourself.

Fat drunk and stupid is no way to go thru life son...

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Don’t stop me, I’m on a roll...

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Above poster obviously had a 0.0 GPA.

Slowman is about to put you on double secret probation......

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Definitely some Flounder candidates on this board, that's for sure.

I am always amazed at the number of people who don't get that movie reference, and then give the obvious correction. It should be required viewing.

I don't think there's anything wrong with having friendly rivalries with countries in Sport , in football England Vs Germany/Scotland/Argintina have always been historical rivalries (being English)

Having said that for me it doesn't really translate to individual sports as they're not really representing there countries, I can understand someone not wanting athletes from a perticular country to dominate and have a bit of a changing of the guard, they've won the last 5 Konas is it?

Nothing to get all hissy over I don't think.

My bad! I had no idea ha ha!

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He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.

I shook my head several times in disappointment reading the last few comments “correcting” who bombed Pearl Harbor.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

I think it mostly just separates us old farts from the young'uns on here.

I was about to lose my shizzle... thank goodness some others chimed in with the correct responses...

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

I still have no idea where the reference is from. Movie references are often regional or generational. Pick one from Life of Brian and I'm safe ;)

To be fair, there's enough stupidity and ignorance doing the rounds that nothing surprises me anymore, and it's often far from obvious whether you're reading sarcasm/cultural reference versus ignorance/stupidity.

Relieved this wasn't legit

Drax: "Nothing goes over my head. My reflexes are too fast!"

OMG! The Japanese bombed Pearl Habour!? President Trump is going to retaliate so hard. The biggest retaliation you've ever seen. It'll be YUGE!

It's from a Belushi speech in the movie Animal House.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ep-xgd_eETE


(Not sure how to embed)

We would have laughed in the LR. Good reference!

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_____
TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.

Such a good rant......still makes me laugh every time I hear it.

I just spit out my coffee reading the super serious corrections about who bombed pearl harbor

Agreed. This thread literally just made the first half of my day!!

Your name is... Pinto.

Why Pinto?

(Burp) Why not.

------------------------------------------------

By the way... here's my new conspiracy theory: Is it possible that Ironman is paying Brownlee to race this one with an appearance fee?

It ain't over till WE say it is!!!

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"I drank what?!?!" - Socrates
Poor Swimmer. Weak Cyclist. Slow Runner.
TriDot Ambassador / Sacramento Triathlon Club

Chapeau!!! You win 10 internets today...

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Sorry guys....don't make any references to any movies implied or otherwise. A, its rude to people from other cultures, B, even in the same place people may have not seen the movie. I am sure if the Germans around here or the Swedes around here made references to their movies that make fun of stupid <insert other nationality to make fun of> then you would not get it too.

There are plenty of people from all over the world here. No need to put others down. It just makes the place less interesting for people to partake in. Once we do that. we lose some of the value and perspective of the forum.

Lighten up, Francis.

Sorry, man, not lightening up. You and Eric should know better (Eric has lived all over the world and been an outside elsewhere, so he should definitely know better than to go down these these snarky paths in text). Some guy from another country for whom English is a second or third language but triathlon is our common knowledge won't get the reference. Better to spell it out and not put others down.

Unless someone calls you guys out, these behaviour just becomes commonly accepted. So someone has to say it and call you guys out.

Even when someone calls us out these behaviors will be accepted...you want to know why?? Because it's all in good natured fun. You might not agree, and that's fine. But you can read by the tone of EVERYONE that there is no malicious intent. If reading comprehension is only taught in one language i'd be shocked, and since that's the case...at first some might think this is "an attack of their country" but after a few responses, they'll see it's all in jest.

No one is responsible for your emotions except you. How you react is 100% on you.

I agree no one is responsible for a person's emotions other than themselves. But it is really easy for some people to engage in exclusionary behaviour online (which keeps others away) and justify it by pointing to all those who stay who "get" their exclusionary behaviour. Its self fulfilling because you don't see all the poeple that walk away from Eric (and you) trending to towards being rude online (I am friends with Eric in real life, I don't really love how he behaves online, as its quit different from how he behaves in person...its almost like I am friends with the real life Eric and could do without the online Eric).

In any case, its a free world and you guys can engage in non adult behaviour around here if you want to and I can choose to call you guys out.

Another great movie quote!

Are you kidding? It’s a quote from animal house. It’s comedy. Sad you or anyone else doesn’t get it. If this bothers you I feel sorry for you. You must walk around made at everything.

So you agree your reaction is your responsibility. So how you react, is solely up to you. Good, got that cleared up.

Also, at no point was this “exclusionary”. No one omitted anyone on basis of their native tongue, nationality,....ANYTHING. Not understanding something doesn’t make it “exclusionary “. People often joke...and this particular “joking” wasn’t malicious in ANY way. So, if you have hurt feelings, okay. But no one “hurt your feelings” you decided to be hurt. That’s on you.

Stupid is as stupid does.

I am not hurt at all. I am pointing out that unless you explicity state something is a joke online it may or may not come across as a joke to others. I know Eric is not THAT stupid that he does not know who bombed Pearl Harbour so its obviously a joke to ME. But clearly at least one person thought that Eric was another clueless American (joke in the the rest of the world that Americans don't know the difference between anyone outside their borders) not knowing his own history.

Seriously jokes don't work online unless you explicitly say its one. People from all over the world with different context. I believe Ai mentioned that.

Holy hell. You're actually serious? One person didn't get the joke, and you've extrapolated 8 million things from that that are simply not there.

You're policing jokes on a forum. Seriously.

Hey its a free world. Just calling those guys out for not explicitly saying it was a joke and then putting down those who did not get it. I got it...I really did....I know Eric is not one of "those stupid guys who does not no the diff between a German and Japanese person"....just defending those who did not get the ref to the movie and don't actually know him....they may think he's just another of those ignorant guys with no international context.

You choose to call Eric out for his comments in THIS thread. 🤣

So you’re saying there is a chance!?!?!?! Smh

Yeah, just say you're joking (or use pink font), or make the reference to the movie....something like "In the famed words of Belushi when he said the Germans bombed Pearl harbour...."....then its all explicit. No one has to read into it. its really that simple

Nothing ruins a joke faster then having to explain it. I bet you’re a lot of fun at parties.

“Calling out those guys...and then putting down those who did not get it.”

Uh, so why IN THE FLYING MONKEY FUCK are you replying to me? Please point out (be specific) where I put anyone down who didn’t get it. Let me see your Hero Homework. If (and let’s me clear, there is NO “if”) you find it, please produce it. If you don’t, please go away then. Now I am specifically attacking you as you have tried to paint me with lies. So you can fuck right off somewhere else!

I love how you have also tried to spin it as you’re saving Eric because YOU KNOW that he isn’t “just another of those ignorant guys with no international context.”

Seriously,You have found a small pile of crumbs and have declared the next Everest. Smfh

Because they bombed Pearl Harbor?
Pink?


That was the Japanese for one thing and regardless,


You need to watch more movies...

How dare you attack him. You exclusionist!!

Can the OP change the title of this thread, i came here to read about Ali in Kona, but the last 2 pages are about some movie quote.

I did go and re watch the clip though, Quite Funny.

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Scott in Whistler

This thread stinks. It reminds me of Dumb and Dumber where Jim Carrey blew up the bathroom and came out and dramatically said “Do NOT go in there!”

There , now everyone is included in the poop joke.

The whole point is if you don’t get the joke the joke’s on you.

Many people on here are much more obtuse than the joke made in this instance. If you want to talk about exclusionary language why aren’t the highly technical sciency posts being policed?

Ace Ventura

Uhh...you don’t really believe that is true for all jokes do you? Because, sometimes a person doesn’t get it...and so what. It doesn’t mean you all of a sudden are laughing at them. Please tell me this is a movie quote.

Dang you’re right, I even thought that might be the case after posting , lol!

I had to think about it...but then I remembered Jeff Daniels blowing his guts out in Dumb and Dumber...and then it clicked. Lol. Still, both visuals from both movies made me chuckle just thinking of them.

I kinda love that a Brownlee thread has devolved into an argument about two of my favorite comedy movies of all time. But let’s not kid ourselves, this argument is complete and utter idiocy.

I have nothing.

[DISCLAIMER: this is a note to everyone who not get movie references, but the above sentence is not from a movie for purposes of this post. I don’t want you to feel excluded, even though I didn’t use exclusionary movie quotes as to not exclude you from knowing, IF it had been for exclusionary purposes. I hope your feelings were not hurt in any way, by any thing, or by nothing, or for any reason....ever.]

Jokes on you man. 😜

I think it’s the paté

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the world's still turning? >>>>>>> the world's still turning

No but seriously , how will Brownlee’s British teeth affect his aero in the humidity of Kona?

Do they wind tunnel test that sort of thing ?

#konaishumid
#britishhavebadteeth
#justexplainthejokeinhashtag

:,,,what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.”

You can’t handle the truth!

I for one didnt know it was a movie quote so I just laughed thinking it was a funny joke

Me too. Did not get the reference but definitely understood that it was a reference I didn't pick up on.

Dont assume we're stupid just because we aren't native English speakers ;)

Am I the only one who wants to see the Brownlees stay with Olympic and Sprint distance racing? It's their choice, and I don't know the backstory, but I don't get the fascination with IM-distance, nor why the focus of the entire sport has become about a single day. I love watching those boys crush shorter races.

Cause they are not getting any younger, and shorter distances suit younger bodies. 😬

They're 29 and 31, which is still fairly young in my book. I also look at it from a financial standpoint - you can race so much more frequently with short distance (this is why, for example, Sarah Haskins hasn't done IM). But perhaps the Brownlees have banked enough or have found a way to make long distance feasible with sponsorships and such. It's their life and not mine - I just find the shorter racing a lot more entertaining and impressive from an athleticism standpoint.

Alastair has won 2 gold medals at the Olympics. Its simple to him - if he does not feel like he can win a third why go back. He has been watching Kona since he was 8 years old and wants to win that race. Its a situation nobody else will be able to relate to because nobody else already has 2 olympic gold medals for triathlon. Whatever floats his boat I guess.

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He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.

This thread makes me feel old.

AB has been an big proponent against the “globalization” of the WTS series travel demands. Along with the world championship losing its “world championship” feel to more of a “series champion” (id be curious how many times wts champion didn’t win grand final). I also think he was bored of it in addition to the # of races it put on the series.

I think he simply got bored of it (he’s such a 1 day stud; 2 x Olympic champion) + broken down from his intensity training style.

I don’t think he’ll be Kona successful but I don’t think it’ll matter. I also don’t give too much credence in the “greatest”, as I think it’s just fodder so even if he “fails to live up to expectations” he’s going to be fine no matter what he does.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

https://simonward.podbean.com

As AB heads to Arizona for training prior to Hawaii, he gives a good review of his Nice 70.3 performance with lessons learned and expectations for Kona.

Am I the only one who wants to see the Brownlees stay with Olympic and Sprint distance racing? //

Apparently so. I just listened to his podcast, and it is pretty clear that 20 years of doing nothing but sprints, has pretty much satisfied his itch there. Like he said, he has been hearing and watching Kona since he was 8. He feels it would be a big disservice to his career if he didnt at least give it a good go. To me, it has been a lot more exciting to see him in 70.3's, raising the bar there like he did in ITU. To watch him just win another ITU race to go with all the rest, not so exciting anymore. Fun to watch for sure, but it is even more fun when he comes and does well at long distance, then goes back once in awhile to sprint again, kind of a surprise each time.


As for Kona, it will also be fun to have him in the race. No doubt he will figure in the podium spots for 7 hours, then we will see. He may need this one race as a lesson before he gives it a real go. Or it will demoralize him to the point of just punting on this race. It happened to Simon Lessing, Spencer Smith, and a lot of others who dominated all distances, except for this one, in this place..


One thing for sure, he will change the dynamic of the swim. Whoever and whatever pace there is, he will swim it. IF history is any lesson, Josh should take it out hard, then put the pedal to the metal in the 2nd half. Instead of just him out there dangling like a carrot, he will have at least Ali and Frodo, and probably one or two more this time. Its not that those guys couldn't swim his pace on his feet, just there wasnt much point in it. Now there is something to be gained, popping the lead group, which in turn pops the 2nd and on down groups too. And you gain a couple guys that can now ride on the front, either making others ride harder to catch, or even staying out there waiting for the lone one or two riders to come through at about 80/90 miles.. Great stuff, cant wait!!!

Yeah spot on Monty. The race dynamics are going to be completely different with him there and of course Frodo. What is going through Patrick Lange's mind? What are his race tactics going to be? Last year he knew the guys in front of him were going to be 10 - 15mins slower than him on the run, now he has Brownlee and Frodo who are as quick as him. Potentially they could exit T2 as much as 10 12 mins ahead of him. Which would be pretty much game over. Personally I can't see Lange featuring. This a very different race to 2017 and 2018, one that doesn't suit him at all. Also with a little bit of a target on his back with his drafting and domestique escapades, you would think that would further affect his race? If he has to ride legally, a top 10 finish would be all he could hope for.

Similarly for Lionel Sanders. I hope he races well in Kona and comes away from the race with a positive mindset, irrespective of his result. And I hope he goes in with realistic goals. Obviously he wants to win, but surely he must be aware of how much more difficult his job is going to be with Frodo and Brownlee there now. Again top 10 would be a good achievement for him and although I'd love him to win Kona one day, it's not going to happen whilst there are athletes like Frodo and Brownlee that can swim, bike and run. He'll be giving up 6, 7 min on the swim and 10 - 12mins on the run.

Also I think we need to knock this notion on the head that Brownlee is going to blow up like some middle aged age grouper. People have mentioned he "blew up" in Nice. He rode a tough bike section on a bike 3kg heavier than Idens, leading most of the way and then ran one of the quickest run splits... He may not win Kona, he may not podium in Kona, but he's not going to be walking unless he breaks a leg. His competitive streak may be his undoing, however. Lets say he gets off the bike with Frodo with a handsome lead on the chasing pack, which is what i think will happen, and Frodo drops the hammer, does Brownlee go with him or run his own race and settle for a podium finish? If he does the former there is a chance he will suffer, slow down a bit (not blow up) and get caught, ending up 5th or whatever, but really, if for him, a podium is his main goal, (winning a "nicetohave") then he should get there with a conservative(ish) approach.

What's funny about this is that every team director that runs a squad that's on the WTS wants everyone that is old to graduate so they can bring through younger talent. Gomez-Noya being one of the bigger names that has needed to move on from their national program for awhile. Yes he wins, but you can bet the team director wants to move a 22 yr old into his slot. The Brownlees are in the age sweet spot where they need to begin their easing out of the WTS and focus on 70.3s and Iron 140.6. It's possible he could contend for the golden double of Kona and a Gold Medal.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

I got $100 says Lange beats Brownlee. Take that action?

Like taking candy from a baby :)

Anything can happen, it's a long race. But for Lange to beat Brownlee, he's going to have to draft his arse off on the bike and/or have a domestique again. And I would hazard a guess the officials will be keeping a close eye on him. And even if he does get round the bike course whilst drafting his arse off, he most likely would still have 10mins to make up on the run, so Brownlee would have to really fuck up on the run...

Nice 70.3 is very different to Kona. So perhaps I'm comparing apples and oranges, but that 14 minute bike split discrepancy between Brownlee and Lange could be considered significant? 14mins is a fair whack over a 70.3. Hilly course, Lange can't draft or use a domestique effectively. His bike split was bettered by age groupers in their 50s. He can beat Brownlee, but he will have to break the rules to do so.

My money is on the guy who has repeatedly shown he can run 2:39 in the Kona heat and is the Kona overall course record holder. Call me crazy.

Time will tell. I root for Brownlee, but will happily take your money when Lange goes flying past with a 2 liter bottle of coke stuffed in his kit.

What's funny about this is that every team director that runs a squad that's on the WTS wants everyone that is old to graduate so they can bring through younger talent. Gomez-Noya being one of the bigger names that has needed to move on from their national program for awhile. Yes he wins, but you can bet the team director wants to move a 22 yr old into his slot.

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No, team directors are all about high performance results at the WTS and Olympic Games level. They get massive amounts of money on results. So what they want is the young guns to kick the ass of the "old guys" and put them to pasture. That's the natural progression that means your doing things right.

So it's not about wanting the young guns their time. They want the young guns who can win, that's who they want to have the slots and the time.

ETA: And no an "old guy" who's still trucking all the young guns, that's on the younger athletes to step their game up. This isn't participation this is about performance. If the young guys cant do it, then they'll filter out and someone else will.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I do love watching the guy run and loved his aid station technique, but lets not forget that he rode quite a bit easier than a few of the other guys and that this year he most likely will have to ride harder.

Not related but I remember (last year?) when there was a distinct lateral split in the field in the first 1km, ie two different groups about 50m away but beside each other.

I kept wondering as I was watching “who’s got this right to the boat”

Could have been 2017, I’ll try to find the video.

Maurice

Yeah could have been 2017. That was when Lange was done for blocking.

I think Tokyo could be a turning point for a lot of Pro's simply because the current Olympic distance is switching to a Sprint distance afterwards.

Not sure I understand the mentality of that really - if they want a shorter event (supposedly to be more viewer friendly) then they might as well ditch the Marathon and Road Cycling as well. (Never happen though will it!).

As for AB's chances in Kona? I think he'll do OK, but a big part of me thinks that McNamee will still be the highest place Brit. He's probably enjoying being completely off everyone's radar due to AB's presence. According to his social media stuff he's saved a good few watts with his bike positioning and recently swapped to Hoka Carbon X and likes them a lot.

And while on the subject of social media - If you believe what Holly Lawrence posts (she's a bit of a mischief-maker), she's stepping up to full for 2020...

Agree also with Monty and you

Race dynamics could be surprising, with a packed and different field ... and also depending on weather/wind ?

A lot of candidates for the podium :

Lange
Frodeno
Aernouts
McNamee
Beals
Brownlee
Sanders ?
Wurf ?
Boecherer ?
Kienle ?

I just don’t see AB having that top end run speed that you need in ITU to contend. Yes, he’s been mixing up distances and going longer, but that short speed goes away as you get older, and age ain’t on his side.

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Blog: http://262toboylstonstreet.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/NateThomasTri
Coaching: https://bybtricoaching.com/ - accepting athletes for 2023

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You left Daniela Ryf off the men's podium contenders!!! How many of these guys does she beat AGAIN!!!!

The reason why they'll never remove the marathon or road race is because those sport's governing bodies don't want to change it because it's now tradition and well established. Even though it's the IOC who controls the Olympics; it's actually the individual sports governing bodies that dictate what is to be included in the olympics. The marathon is the marathon, you'll never see it get changed to the 13.1 for it's own history. Triathlon on the other hand I dont think has the history/clout/prestige to make "standard" distance the end all be all, etc. ITU has pretty much become a sprint distance format except for basically the championship races. But majority of WTS is now sprint distance + adding in the MTR and you get that sport specificity genre. Which when it goes full time to sprint distances, the line in the sand of sport specificity will be even more pronounced. You'll hardly ever see a ITU guy mix it up at the 70.3 distance in the same year because of just the specificity differences. Or shall I say you wont see guys who are highly successful able to race them both well in a short time period.

ITU guys can race a 70 right now really well because basically the training demands are more similiar than different. But you move to ITU guys having to focus more on pure speed than any real "aerobic" stuff and you'll see them with incredibly fast 1600m/5k splits and then start to fall off quicker than what we see now with ITU guys going from 10k to 13.1, etc. Add in the fact that the bike is going to then turn into a 26 min balls to the wall effort and you'll see guys very quickly either hack it in ITU or turn to non-draft earlier and earlier in their careers. I also think the move to the sprint distances will create shorter ITU careers just because of the speed demands.

But back to AB. I hope he has simply puts the hurt on Lange and we really see what Lange can do under more pressure than he's faced in a few years. I want to see what he has to do now in the chase group with the front group having better firepower. And AB doesn't have to even podium or top 5 to have a major impact on others who actually do/dont podium.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Thank you.

He says he'll try to hold back in Kona at the start of the bike.

We will see if he does :)

It was interesting hearing his review of Nice - maybe not as bad as it seemed from the outside.

Has the ITU move to sprint distance been confirmed? I thought this was nothing beyond rumours up until this point.

I think the move to the majority of races in the calendar being sprint distance has been done to allow the athletes to race regularly at a high level. I've heard many ITU pros talk about the difference in recovery between sprint and Olympic distance.

In terms of training there may be more focus on red line efforts, but this will always be underpinned by large aerobic volume and lots of threshold work. I think this seems to be the philosophy of many of the top coaches (Fillip, Arild etc). So you may still get some overlap between ITU and 70.3.

I think it's just a matter of time before it's confirmed. Of course it'll always be an aerobic sport no matter what the distance is because well it's a 50 min race even at sprints. And sure you'll get some overlap but you wont get world class guys overlapping and winning both at world class championship level events. The demands will just be too different.

Also with the move to sprint, it'll be more in line with MTR style of racing + Super League and thus this idea that guys will race for 50 min tops or race back to back days of ~75 total mins will even want to race for nearly 4 hours, meh. It's just going to be that extreme imo, I dont care whether it's still aerobic or not. It's just not going to lead to a very successful racing career meshing the 2 distinct races in the same small time frame.

ETA: Will some do it? Absolutely cus they are still great enough athletes. But no way in hell if they move to a full schedule of sprints will those same athletes who also will likely become younger and younger also race 70's at a high level in the same time period. It just aint going to happen. The move to sprint will only make ITU younger and younger and thus that type of athlete generally will lack the "aerobic fitness" that more seasoned athletes can develop. So will there be an initial period where there is cross over of course there will be. But in 10 years it's going to be a very distinct line in the sand of ITU athletes vs non-draft long course athletes (again as I said in another thread, I kinda hate that 70.3 is "long course" because it's probaly the last real race distance that can be raced hard and is still I think much different than IM racing).

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I just love it that he is coming to Kona this year having never completed a full Ironman. Without the swim in Cork can we still call him a 140.6 virgin if it is fun to do so? I think we can! :-).

Has anybody ever reached the podium at Kona as their first complete Ironman? In fact, has there ever been a pro even turn up at Kona in genuine contention for the podium who has never completed a full 140.6?

Hope he doesn't overbike chasing down Wurf and co. or forget he is not in the ITU whenever he passes anybody early in the run.

Mega exciting. I'm gonna be watching, drinking and eventually singing "Come on Ali" to the Dexys Midnight Runners melody.

I think Luc van Lierde ran his first ever marathon at kona to win in record time

I'll disagree here to an extent. The team director will keep the old hand that wins, moreso because he has to. Yet, they want the young guns to come through. Javier, is literally in the way of a guy half his age. When you have certain sports that are in the Olympics and a different format that's longer (Rugby 7s and Rugby XVs) it is also an indictment on the coaching and high performance staff if there's a 35 yr old on the squad for not developing a program that makes the 35 yr old irrelevant. (We're going through this right now with our Rugby 7s side, we'll see what the squad makeup is after Tokyo).

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Really? Wow, that is an excellent fact that I didn't know! Cheers!

[quote
And while on the subject of social media - If you believe what Holly Lawrence posts (she's a bit of a mischief-maker), she's stepping up to full for 2020...[/quote]
Holly has already announced she’s racing Ironman St. George as her debut 140.6 next May.

No doubt it's an indictment on the whole program. But my point more is that Gomez isn't taking anyone's spot or holding anyone down. No one has stepped up to take that spot. So that's on both the younger athletes and the programs. But again at the end of the day- federations at the WTS level is about high performance. This is about performing and if the young guys cant perform for whatever reason, the king gets to keep his throne.



Of course you as a federation probaly want to have athletes at a max of 2 olympics. Anything more than that and your likely pipeline isn't as strong as it's needed to be. You kinda want high performance to be an evolving door. Sorta like politics, "career politician" should never occur.


At some point you should be developing the younger athletes to kick out the old guard, just like that old guard did to the previous old guard. Gomez and AB basically helped put to pasture Frodo and others. They just upped the ITU game. The other top names will do it to AB and Gomez, and I think it's already starting to happen. But at the end of the day if AB is your best option, well there's a reason why AB can flip flop. No one else stepped up and took his spot. Yee is starting too, but there's a group of athletes between AB and Yee in the GB federation that kind never was able to take it to the next level. Of course some federation athletes are truly once in a lifetime athletes and thus much harder to unseat their throne. Whereas other federations just natural "aging" causes them to last 1 olympics and out they go to real world and retire.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Gomez is winning and or top 5 pretty much all the time. That's not in the way or stunting the growth of some young guy. If he were to finish out of the money at every race, then I'd agree with you. If he became "pack fodder" that's wasting a spot. But this isn't the case in that particular case.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I think in 10 years the landscape could look quite different.

Speaking of the move to shorter racing, does anyone know what is happening with the Super Sprint and Relay Championships which were schedeled to debut in 2021. An announcement on the inaugural venue was meant to happen last September.

https://www.triathlon.org/...d_triathlon_sprint_r

I 100% agree with you about the not blowing up like an age grouper. I think in his mind he "blew up" at Nice because he wasn't able to close the deal by running sub 1:08. So a 2:42 marathon and losing by 3 minutes in Kona could also be a case of where he feels he blew up if only because he believes he can run sub 2:35 or something that feels out of this world to even the most confident Brownlee fan. If you think a podium is even a thought he considers however, I would 100% disagree. To win a world championship or a gold medal you have to have a zero tolerance mindset towards anything but the highest possible achievement. For someone like him who has experienced the kind of success that he has, the top step of the podium is the undoubtedly the ONLY thing he has on his mind.

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derekgarcia.com

Has anybody ever reached the podium at Kona as their first complete Ironman? In fact, has there ever been a pro even turn up at Kona in genuine contention for the podium who has never completed a full 140.6? //

So a little history lesson, someone already mentioned Luc who actually won in record time. In the recent years you have to have done a full ironman to get to Kona, and only some circumstance like cancelling a swim, or shortening the bike or run, would negate that fact. Of course that happens all the time now, so it would not be as rare as one would think, Ali being a great example.


But before that change in qualifying, one could qualify at 1/2 distance races, or even sprint races before that. SO a lot of pros could end up at Kona for the first time, also doing their first ironman there too. Kona was my first ironman, as well as a lot of other pros up until the early 2000's I would say. And I guess since I led the race for the first half of the day, I could have been considered a pre race podium contender.. (-;

Gordon Haller not only reached the podium but won the race in his 1'st attempt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Haller

As did Tom Warren

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The first time man split the atom was when the atom tried to hold Jens Voigt's wheel, but cracked.

As did Dave Scott...

That was not Kona.

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

I don't know about sprints, but definitely you could get kona slots at Mrs T's back in the 90s. that was oly distance if memory serves. . .

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____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

As did Patrick Lange

edit: I meant podiumed at Kona in his first full 140.6

How did Lange qualify that year?

I'm too lazy to look it up but I think Carfrae podiumed her first time to Kona without ever having run a full marathon....but I could be completely wrong about that.

Pink?

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Strava

IMTX with a 94 mile bike course.

Not sure why you think that would be pink but to clarify:

The question was “who showed up to KONA & podiumed on their first attempt”?

The first IM Hawaii was held on Oahu which is not Kona.

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

That was not Kona. //

Ah ha, you found the technicality, good catch..


Ok, here is another one, Scott Tinley.

:-)

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

And here are a few more;

Jeff Tinley
Grant Boswell
Karl Kupferschmied
Chris Hinshaw
Mike Pigg

Pretty confident on most of those, since there was only one or two other ironman's even in existence back then..So not so rare after all.. (-;

Crowie podiumed in Kona on his first full ironman I believe.

Yes but it wasn't in Kona. His first Ironman was in Australia.

Where was it then?

Ironman Australia 2007 where he came 3rd..

AB is a smart guy. If he does not hold back it will be for a racing reason that, based on his experience, will pay dividend for the entire race. His tactics for Nice were good. He was beaten by a worthy champ who was better than him on the day. Iden did great to come out in the front swim pack which put him in a strong position from the start.

Nice was a long climb and likely AB did not fuel enough for the considerable effort. RvB also changed the dynamics that day with his intimate knowledge of the descent which, as shown, negated this effort.

If you have not caught up with the podcast below, it is worth listening to (and actually better than the one with Simon). Mark, the host, has a pub style type chat that relaxes AB to get some decent insights. It was recorded post Ireland and pre-Nice and demonstrates AB's passion for long distance from an early age.

https://www.spreaker.com/...athlon-brick-session

You could get a Kona spot in Smithers BC (Olympic) up until early 90’s.

Also wildflower was a perennial early season favourite Q among pros.

Maurice

Note: the interview with AB starts after 18 mins

Ahh!! For some reason I had it in my head he qualified by winning 70.3 world champs and then didn't do an ironman before Kona.

I'll have a listen, thanks.

Good point about RvB. Perhaps a very different result if it had been a flat course. I wonder if having a TT bike over road made any difference? My BMC road bike is 6.8kg, almost 3kg lighter than my BMC TT bike, it would certainly be quicker climbing and descending.

Haha. It's going to be a good race! Is this the strongest field for male Pros in a long time(ever)?

I don't think Ali will master Kona (at least for a long while) and I could see him doing a Simon Lessing type race and not even finishing

Part of my rationale is thinking

1. heat is not his friend especially for his first year where even a trained machine like he is, won't be use to the length of the day in conditions that are manageable for sub 4hr races but quite a different thing for 8hr races. I know some will say he races fine in heat but Ive seen evidence it takes a lot out of him given how he tends to race. He gets it done in heat at olympic distance but he's cleary had some epic torture fests when its hot.

2.I also think he is an emotional racer. Which for shorter events works just fine (as he has well proven). Again, I fear the patience needed for Kona is just not for him. I think he could start out patient and make the mistake of either getting bored sitting in and start mixing it up or simply thinking he'll hammer away off front early. I could see him being a major factor until later in the bike and then he falters and does not deliver the run weapon so many think he will do.

3. I have not seen proof he knows how to fuel for the distance. Ireland was not convincing he had that working and it was not the best practice with it being cold. And maybe he slowed it down on purpose but it did not look like he was going to rip off a sub 2:45 in heat based on that run. Saying that I suspect he'll be fitter and leaner by Kona

My 2 cents is Kona will simply not suit how he is wired and races. Feel free to bring this post back if he wins !

That is a damn heavy bike! My P5D weighs 8.1kg v my road bike at 6.7kg and in BBS it had my TT bike faster by several minutes (and it was spot on for actual day/bike I chose). One thing about Nice, it had about 35km of TT heaven flat that was a huge negative for a road bike. Also, the descent was not very technical, for a competent rider, so the bike choice there made little if any difference.

I enjoyed listening to AB in the podcast, and it was reassuring that he respects the race and has more rational thought than many here give him credit for. Also, spending a month in the heat of AZ and Kona will allow him to acclimate and test his fueling under those difficult conditions. I give him a shot at doing the unthinkable, but also see Kona as course that suits only a very few (those that magically don't lose any salt in their sweat) and it is a very tough race environment that regularly chews up the best and most well prepared.

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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." T.S. Elliot | Cycle2Tri.com
Sponsors: SciCon | | Every Man Jack

This gets mentioned a lot, but whenever anyone queries it, no-one can point out an instance where he has actually struggled in the heat. In fact a lot of his big wins have come in Kona like conditions, Rio, Beijng, Gold Coast etc There was one race in the heat where he ran a 35min 10km, but that was his first race back after a long injury lay off and the only reason is his brother has struggled a few times and so he gets tarred with the same brush.

Edit - just saw that he's currently training in the Arizona desert, 100F heat.

Sorry 2 kg. 6.8 vs 8.8.

Good to hear! I thought the BMC was lighter!

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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." T.S. Elliot | Cycle2Tri.com
Sponsors: SciCon | | Every Man Jack

I cannot see him in the Podium. This why
- Not enough training for IM
- First time in Kona has a toll
- He suffers in heat. One thing is an 1.50h effort, a very different one is an 8hs'.
- Too many contenders to beat: Frodo, Lange, Kienle, Aernouts, Currie, Beals, Mc Namee, ...even Wurf or Sanders, and my dark horse, Eneko Llanos...

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Spaniard. Sorry for my english for the sensitive ones :P

For the love of God...

Lol I think heat has maybe even a bigger effect in shorter more intense races that can still go close to 2 hours as your body temperature is going be much hotter given the intensity. Witness some of the carnage at hot itu races.

My thoughts are he'll be fine until about 6 miles into the run. This is based on both IM Ireland and Nice. The drop off in his run in both races was quite a lot in both races and he didn't look great in either. What he eventually runs will still keep him inside the top10 but it won't be low 2:4X.

He has quoted he still thinks he could have run 1:07 for the run in Nice, but I honestly can't see where he is getting this from. That is over 3 mins quicker. So the only explanation for this belief is there was an element of under nutrition which for me is more worrying going into Kona. He has done this in a couple of 70.3s now.

Longer term I think once he gets things figured out and fully commits then I don't see anyone beating him in races outside Kona. Not even Frodo (age will catch up with him). 400W FTP? He can potentially ride 300-320W while having a sub 48 swim and if he gets things right a sub 2:40 run.

If only he had access to to world class coaches like Malcolm Brown or Jack Maitland or a heat chamber at a university or a great nutrition company backing him with custom products if so needed or even my email... 🤣🤣

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David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com

Ha ha. I actually think old Malcolm has retired but was a great influence on the brothers. Great coach.

Apparently AB is training with quite a lot intensity.

On the other hand Iden is training (thanks Arild for the insight in Norwegian training routine) with much more low and medium intensity, with his teammates Blu and Stornes.

IMO, from this simple observation, I would guess (not a very educated guess, however) that at 70.3 race pace, AB is relying more than Iden on glycogen, while Iden is relying more than AB on fat consumption.

FTP is obtained 100% from glycogen consumption. Great for an hour record, but does this have an impact on IM distance ?
No. Not directly.
A 70kg guy with a FTP of 380w can be much better in IM than a 70kg guy with 400w FTP, if its fat consumption is better trained. Because IM is more relying on fat consumption.

Don't get me wrong, AB is great.

But my view is that he is relying too much on sugar consumption, creating problems at 70.3 distance and even more at IM distance :
70.3 Nice WC : slowing at the end, and apparently getting gastric issues
IM Ireland : seriously slowing at the end, not capable of feeding the body.

My view for Kona :
AT not on the podium. Possibly top 10. Possibly not finishing with gastric issues.
If Iden was in Kona, he would blow AT away :-)

Where do you get this from?

Ahem...

I think we'll leave Luc out of any conversations

General impressions from their videos, interviews, articles, ...

Not very precise info, however, this is why I say "apparently".

Comparatively, IMO (again, no proof) much more intensity (time proportion, intensity level) than the Iden "Arild plan" (this one being quite clear).

Well I think your general impressions are wrong because the Brownlees are more renowned for a high volume training approach rather than a high intensity one.

My point is : AT training plan comparatively to Iden training plan

Do you have precise insight on AT training plan ?

No I don't, and nor do you ;-)

I have what I saw, hear, and read.

And for me, despite lack of precision, it seems clear enough to compare to Iden training plan. And draw some hypothetic conclusions :-)

Not a problem for me if you don't agree.

What is your guess on AT perf in Kona ?
At least we will be able to compare this :-)

Feel free to draw whatever conclusions you want from your imagined Brownlee training plan! ;-)

I have no idea how he will perform in Kona, anything from a podium to complete meltdown and DNF is possible. It will be interesting to find out though.

A lot of the manipulation in metabolic profiles *may* happen under extension of speed of specific or race related targeted workouts.

For example a 4+ hour ride with 4x1hour at .85-.88 with 3 minutes easy between has a lot more value than a six hour sniffing the roses and taking selfie rides at .5-.7. Same with extension of long run with intensity say long with 4x5km descending M pace.

Speaking specifically to AG not Elite. For example FOP older athletes at just under 11 hours is different in terms of inputs than someone racing with surges for 8 hours.

Maurice

Hello

Are you talking % of FTP ?

If yes, and if my interpretations of Arild explanations are right (2x if, you will notice :-), the "Norwegian plan" for elite is around :

- heavy volume (up to 38 hours / week)

- 15% of time : long intervals at around 2,5 / 2,8 mmol/L lactate, so about 90% FTP (low sweetspot work, near 50/50 glycol/fat energy consumption). Not far from what you describe. This is probably a bit faster but less long than your 4x1h.

- 85% of time : around 1 mmol/L lactate, so about 65% / 70% FTP (base endurance, below maxfat point). What you call "sniffing roses and taking selfie". Not sure Arild will appreciate :-)

- very little FTP (and above) work

Apparently, this combination works.... as proven in ITU and 70.3 WC (and world speed record). Some other plans may work also, of course.

My point was :
this plan is very centered on pushing fat consumption, much less on glycogen use.
And I have the intuition that this is where some other plans have it wrong, pushing too much on the glycogen use. But this is just my non fact proven intuition... plus, my english is not good, cause I'm french...

We are on a slow twitch forum, not the "fact based biomechanics and physiology forum", so I feel free to talk about my lousy intuitions :-)

Whereas what is called the "Norwegian plan" is a relative success, the results by themselves can't prove this plan to be better than other plans. It is a relative success because coming from nowhere in terms of country results, a group of three guys have achieved two ITU wins and a 70.3 win in the last three years. Is this better than the method the Joel Filliol squad is using? Because in contrast to those results, in the same time frame the top three guys from his squad have, what, like 15 ITU wins and the last three world titles?

Aren't we getting stuck with the profiles some athletes had a few years ago? I am thinking Brownlee and Gomez. You say AB raised the bar of 70.3, yet he hasn't won any of his two entries. So somebody raised the bar even more. Also winning his next ITU race as you also say would be a tough call, considering he hasn't won one, not even podiumed, since Cozumel in 2016. Over the top of my head, he was 30 something at Leeds, fourth at the European games, and did really bad at his last Commonwealth games.

I think both are well past their prime and we are over selling them. But the only thing you can't predict is the future, so who knows...

4th was 2018 Euro's

2019 Euro's AB was 1st


I agree about them being past their prime, but I think to monty's point his presence I think is going to have a huge impact on how other's are forced to race. You don't have to win to actually change how the race unfolds. You can have huge impact on others simply by being AB.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Sure,

I think it’s fun to discuss various pre race opinions etc,

Just like other world class teams like Dan lorang/Frodeno, Tilburs/Cody Beals, Sutton/Ryf, Talbot Cox and Lionel Sanders there is no doubt that Alrild/Iden make a great combo, results are there.

I think the thing though is that Iden isn’t signing up tomorrow and “basing” his way to a Kona victory in 3weeks.

Also when speaking specifically to RER (relationship between co2/vo2) and testing we need to understand how it drifts with duration and event specific demands, with blood lactate and running off the bike we need to understand how high residual BL levels are at 3:30 marathon pace vs 3:50....and for how long, ie at what point do they normalize? At what opening speed?

My only point was that unless AB has low iron or some other weird condition his base/fat max/metabolic starting point for specific trading is likely “good enough”.

Having said that I think he is going to drill it in the first 10 km at 35-36 minutes (run) and go backwards from there.

Maurice

Can't wait for this showdown. Based on his 70.3 performance (and recent footage of him training in Arizona), I suspect he's pinning more than we think on his Kona debut - besides, it's not like a Brownlee to go into an event as a "learning experience".

I suspect Kona this year will be a straight up running race.

Sure,

I think it’s fun to discuss various pre race opinions etc,

Just like other world class teams like Dan lorang/Frodeno, Tilburs/Cody Beals, Sutton/Ryf, Talbot Cox and Lionel Sanders there is no doubt that Alrild/Iden make a great combo, results are there.

I think the thing though is that Iden isn’t signing up tomorrow and “basing” his way to a Kona victory in 3weeks.

Also when speaking specifically to RER (relationship between co2/vo2) and testing we need to understand how it drifts with duration and event specific demands, with blood lactate and running off the bike we need to understand how high residual BL levels are at 3:30 marathon pace vs 3:50....and for how long, ie at what point do they normalize? At what opening speed?

My only point was that unless AB has low iron or some other weird condition his base/fat max/metabolic starting point for specific trading is likely “good enough”.

Having said that I think he is going to drill it in the first 10 km at 35-36 minutes (run) and go backwards from there.

Maurice[/quote]
This made me actually laugh out loud. But you're wrong, the world class team is Lionel Sanders/Lionel Sanders.

I agree with potentially changing the dynamics.

Regarding the euros, the fourth was in the European games, sort of a European Olympics. It was a highly contested event, but without Mola, and some other top guns. The euros you mention, my bad, but it was a below world cup level event.

I thought Talbot was a videographer, didn't realize he was also a coach.

2019 Euros had a WTS winner in 3rd. (Geens)
Van Riel was 6th (he was 5th in the WTS series)
Look at the results. It was as competitive as a World Cup.

Alistar also won a world cup this year.

yeah, he's got a habit of getting off the bike and hitting sub-3 minute/km pace for a little while. . . feasible and maybe even necessary in short course, but could be deadly for his chances in IM racing. . .

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https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

I almost don’t even think it matters how “stupid” he races to begin. I mean I think this is akin to parents tempting their kid with candy only to punish them when they take the candy.

I think he’s going to race at times stupid but I think it’s just going to be part of the learning curve that he either figures out or simply is stuck racing IM with no chance of winning.

So I think he’s going to race poorly before he can nail it especially with his racing mindset/background. And I don’t even think it matters if he races poorly this year. He gets some mulligans in my book.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

yeah, he's got a habit of getting off the bike and hitting sub-3 minute/km pace for a little while. . . feasible and maybe even necessary in short course, but could be deadly for his chances in IM racing. . . //

But here is the thing everyone seems to be forgetting, this isnt his first ironman. Sure there was no swim, but that is irrelevant to his race, in fact it is a huge benefit he didnt get. But he did some crazy ass ride in horrible conditions, probably putting out silly power all over the place. Then he slogged in horrible running conditions with a dying 2;52. So we know he can do the distances, and even blowing up, beats most pros marathon times. His only issue is going to be racing in the exact opposite extreme. Heat has a way of just sapping some folks, won't know until he is actually out there.


But with his extra months of focused training, and some heat training, I'd expect a Nice type race out of him. In the mix, mild pacing errors here and there, and slogging in with a run maybe 15 minutes slower than he is capable, like a low 2;50 something. That ought to get him top 5, maybe even top 3 is there is a big split on the lead bikers and main group.


I'm excited to see him race, and it will be fun to see what he does in the test swim on Saturday before. He is good enough to win that swim, certainly showed he can swim on Josh's feet if he wants to.

Yeah, I was just being a Smart Ass with that one.

Maurice