Howdy,

I have a quick (I hope) question on pre-existing run fitness and its potential (if any) to limit FTP improvement.

I purchased a Kickr at the beginning of the year and paired it with TR with the goal to improve my biking. Early on I did the 2x8min FTP test and received a value of 214 (I'm 53 years old, if that makes a difference). I then proceeded to follow (for the most part) the Sprint Tri Base program. After a month, I repeated the 2x8min test and received an FTP of 212 (effectively, no improvement). A bit disappointing, to say the least. I continued the base phase and switched over to the Build phase and repeated the 2x8min test eight weeks later. My FTP was again 212. It's nice to be consistent but I was hoping for an improvement.

I have a strong running background (19:30 5K, 1:30 Half Marathon, 3:15 marathon in recent history). Could the fitness I have from 20+ years of running be limiting my potential cycling improvement? I love the structured sessions TR provides so I will continue to use the application (one can't ride outdoors during a Boston winter anyways).

Thanks.

Hi Nate -

Just finished my first IM70.3 (Chattanooga) and getting ready to start my training cycle for my second (Ohio). That race is in late August and gives me approximately 12 weeks of training. I'm plan on going through the Half Ironman specialty plan again for the last 8 weeks, but do you have any suggestions on what to do for the first 4?

Thanks in advance for any advice you may have... I'm definitely a believer in the TR plans and am looking forward to seeing how well they work with my new Kickr Snap (moving from a Cycleops Fluid 2) for the next round of training! =)

Hi Chad,

I'm in a similar position - sort of. Due to the recovery from a knee injury, I started four weeks late on the new triathlon plans working towards my first full IM in the first weekend of July (Frankfurt, Germany).

I started with 12 weeks of full distance triathlon base low volume. Right now I'm in week 7 of the full distance triathlon build low volume, but I've added Pettit to every week to up it a little.

My first thought would be to do weeks 1, 2, 7 en 8 of the specialty plan, low volume. But after I've had a look at the plans, it seems that the taper weeks are "building upon" week 5 and 6. Should I do weeks 5-8? Or should I make a custom combination of some sort? Hope you can help me out here.

Must say, I love TrainerRoad. Not just the workouts, but the plans, the podcasts, the support team - big kudos to all of you!

Good luck with Frankfurt its a great race

Has this ever happened to you guys and if so, any solutions? I use a Kickr Snap.

I just did Frissell which is a 4x9 minute at 95% FTP. I have a new FTP from a 20 min test I did at the beginning of the low volume half distance triathlon build phase which is 24 watts higher than before.

I had to knock the workout intensity down to 80% to get through the first two intervals. During those, my cadence was quite slow (around 70 vs 90 which is what I normally hit) and the pedals felt so heavy. I had to stop pedaling once, let the flywheel stop, and then start again. But my power output wasn't spiking.

Then partway through the third interval the kickr started feeling more normal and I was able to bump up the intensity so much that I did the 4th interval at 100% intensity.

Not sure if I'm making sense here but any clues? I recently updated the firmware on my kickr, then unplugged it as was requested by wahoo.

thanks

Sorry to hear about the issues here man!

There could be a number of things at play here, but just so we can be sure it doesn't happen again - let's have you get in touch with the support crew at support@trainerroad.com.

You mentioned that your cadence was super low during those intervals you had a hard time with. Considering the nature of ERG mode, there's this inverse relationship between your cadence and your effort that must be kept in mind. As your cadence decreases, the resistance load of the Snap will increase, making your effort more difficult (i.e. make sure you're on target power). Similarly, while your cadence remains high, your effort will reflect this decrease in resistance applied to the machine. Perhaps the increased resistance was further slowing your cadence and you just couldn't get out of that rut; sometimes you really have to power through it. Not sure if this is what you were experiencing, but our customer support experts will be able to get to the bottom of things.

On another note, keeping the firmware up-to-date is definitely wise, but you may want to also check whether or not you've performed the 'advanced calibration' as well. The machine doesn't come factory calibrated, so you'll need to access the Wahoo Fitness App and complete it there. Keep in mind, you'll only need to do this once. :-)

Thanks!

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Get Faster with TrainerRoad

Chad is out this week, so we'll have to wait and see on this one. :-)

The fact that you've been such a strong athlete could change things no doubt, so my thoughts below may be taken with a grain of salt.

I have seen a user in the past who wasn't quite seeing the improvements in their FTP that they were expecting. It ended up that they weren't allowing adequate recovery in their training, which could be seen in the general decrease in HR in accordance to the power the user would normally be outputting. Seeing this indicates overreaching, a necessary component to fitness progression. However, when this trend continues, and you're not allowing your body enough rest, you delve into non-functional overreaching - essentially training a tired body. Not sure if this applies to you, but it may be worth considering. In any case, I'll send you a private message to get your username to take a look at your HR trends.

Thanks man!

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Get Faster with TrainerRoad

Congrats on the 70.3 man - hope you killed it! Nate is out for the week as well. :-)

In the meantime of his suggestion, and possibly some more elaboration on Chad's behalf, I'm hoping the following blog articles will get you pointed in the right direction:

Adjusting your training with multiple events


Timing your training for your event


Thanks for the solid feedback too! We'll be looking forward to the massive gains to come with your sweet new Snap!


Happy Training!

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Get Faster with TrainerRoad

Thanks for the links; based on the info provided I think I have a pretty solid plan that will include substituting some weekend rides for outdoors while keeping the focused interval stuff indoors on the Kickr. =)

Yes it's happened to me when I owned a Kickr Snap. Say the target power was 200 watts and your cadence was around 100 the power you have to put out is as you would expect however as your cadence reduces the load gets harder and harder. That's actually to be expected but not to the extent that the Snap makes you work. At a cadence of 70 you could be having to put out up to 250 - 300 watts to actually keep up with a target power of 200 watts and I've tested this with my power meter.

After going through 2 Kickr Snaps and going around in circles with Wahoo support who wouldn't accept their product had power accuracy issues I return the second and replacement Snap for a refund. They just kept saying my power meter was at fault. I don't accept that as others have reported power inaccuracy issues.

Trainerroad's "Power Match" works reasonably with the Snap where your power meter if you have one is used to control the power target. The problem I had using this was with the likes of VO2 max intervals where there would be a big jump in power target e.g. 150 watts to 320 watts. I would then have to put out 400 or more watts initially and this would reduce over the course of about a minute when the power would finally be at 320 watts. Cadence played a part in this and if I spun quicker then the power would settle down quicker.

My advice - get a refund and buy something else or if you don't have a power meter, get a power meter and use that with a fluid type trainer. I'm back on my reliable Cycleops Fluid 2 trainer in conjunction with my power meter. This setup works great with Trainerroad.

Ironically in today's Trainerroad podcast the guys talked about their Kickr's and how the power was off. One said that he was using Power Match as the Kickr was 30 watts out.

Thanks! My first IM ever, really looking forward to it :-))

Heck ya! Very welcome!

Glad they got you pointed in the right direction. :-)

Cheers,

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Get Faster with TrainerRoad

First off, great name!

I'm going to forward this to Coach Chad to answer. He's going to ask you though how fit you are and how much training have you already done. Are you off the couch? Have you already been putting in the time?

I'm going to guess and say if you're off the couch you should do the first four weeks of the tri base plan. If you've already been training (and maybe racing a bit) this season then do the first four weeks of the tri build plan.

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CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast

Hi Lars,

Sorry for the delay, did a bit of traveling last week.

Being that you're on a low-volume plan, I think you'll be fine jumping forward to the final 4 weeks of the Specialty plan . So weeks 5-8 should be a pretty straightforward solution to your plan modification. Best of luck!

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Head Coach at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast

Hi, and thanks for your patience while I've been traveling.

First off, your running fitness will only come at the detriment of your cycling fitness if you're allocating precious bike time to something you're already good at - running. So unless you're neglecting your bike training and doting on your run training, I doubt that's the issue.

Secondly, let's consider the timing of your reassessments as well as how the workouts are progressing. If you feel like you're getting stronger and perhaps even lifting the Workout Intensity during workouts or simply feeling less challenged as the weeks roll by, there's a good chance your fitness is on the rise regardless of what your FTP assessments might indicate.

Similarly, when the workouts are getting tougher from week to week but you're dealing with the increases in stress and completing the intervals as prescribed, this too can demonstrate greater fitness that belies the results of your reassessments.

If you think this might be the case, try adding a priming workout on Monday prior to your assessment. Any of the Truuli workouts spring to mind since they're pretty short and not too high in stress but will very probably get your muscles and your head in the proper frame of mind for the next day's assessment workout.

The other likely culprit is too much fatigue and you can recognize this by the flat feeling you carry into each new loading week (i.e. the first post-recovery week). Sometimes an extra day or two of rest or active rest is necessary depending on how deeply the preceding 3 weeks buried you. Alternatively, maybe the recovery weeks could be shortened by a day or two if you genuinely feel rested & ready to get back at it (though a less likely situation as a masters athlete).

And until your next assessment, don't feel locked into your current FTP if you feel like you're capable of more. Feel free to lift the Workout Intensity 2-3% and see how each workout goes. My bet is you'll find yourself getting through more challenging versions of your workouts once you account for the improvement your assessments aren't fairly demonstrating.

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Head Coach at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast

Hi Nate/Chad -

Hope you enjoyed your vacation and thanks for following up! While training for Chattanoogaa, I completed a full base/build/speciality plan and took the past week "off" for post-race recovery (261W FTP as of last test). Based on some of the links Nick provided, I was planning on doing the first 4 weeks of the half distance triathlon build plan, followed by another full 8 weeks of the specialty. This sounds inline with your suggestion as well, but any additional feedback is greatly appreciated!

I'll start things off today or tomorrow with a FTP test since I'm using a new trainer (Kickr Snap) and have no power meter on my road bike (want to keep tri-bike available for longer outdoor training rides).

One quick question related to the Kickr Snap -- I've noticed that I can't always hit the power targets for recovery intervals... Is this the "power floor" problem I've seen you refer to in other posts, and is shifting the best way to compensate (even though I am in ERG mode)?

Thanks again for a great product; it has definitely proven to me the benefit of structured indoor interval training (even when you really want to get outside and ride in the nice weather)!

Yes, that's for sure the power floor problem. To fix this just shift down or drop into your small ring for recovery intervals. Shift back into your big ring a few seconds before your next interval.

Thanks for the kind words! :)

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CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast

Hey (other) Nate,

If you're coming directly off a race, especially if you had a long run-up to a high level of peak fitness, you will probably see a lot of benefit in a return to some lower-intensity work. Any of the Traditional Base plans can be good for this and they each escalate in intensity making it easy to choose really low-intensity (Trad Base I), moderate-intensity (Trad Base II), or comparatively high but still steady intensity (Trad Base III).

But you can also dive back into 4 weeks of Sweet Spot Base I or II if you're riding a good wave of fitness and feel good about the possibility of riding it for the next 3 months. Just choose SSB I or II based on how the TSS folds into your previous and future training loads.

In either case though, a return to some Base conditioning of one type or the other is going to be the best and safest bet unless you're very experienced and know confidently that your body can deal with an additional 4-week round of Build conditioning.

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Head Coach at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast

Thank you so much. It makes sense, and it's good to read your thoughts on it. Entering the workouts in TrainingPeaks as we speak :-)

Chad, quick question. Doing the 8 min ftp test should I take 90% of the average of the two intervals, or 90% of the better of the two intervals?

Thanks

Hoping I can get some clarification. I just turned my training peaks subscription back on (it expired and I hadn't used it.....I bought the year and used it tonight for the first time) This is 1,000 times better than racermate! I built my coaches workout in minutes and off I went.

Question; I have a power meter and computrainer. Under devices, do I connect both? I calibrated the power meter through the Trainer Road program, but wasn't sure how to calibrate the computrainer. Do I do a 10 minute ERG ride on the CT, then calibrate, then launch trainer road?

I start what ever TR workout I'm doing, there's usually a 5 minute warm up at the beginning of each workout, right before the warm up ends I hit F3, calibrate, and continue the workout without ever worrying about it again (I know CT says ride ten minutes before cal, but I hardly see any difference between 5minutes vs 10)... Most 90% of my workouts are on the computrainer, so I leave the bike on the trainer and never adjust the tension knob, if I leave the unit on and just inflate my tires to the same pressure each time, I find that I don't even need to calibrate. It's exactly the same every time... If you turn the CT off you'll definitely have to recalibrate. Hope this helps

Whats strange is I hit F3 on the CT and it didn't go into calibrate mode. I will try it again tomorrow.....thanks for the advice.

That's an interesting point... As cycling is my "newest" sport, I could definitely see how going back to 4-weeks of steady base training would be beneficial as it would give my body a break from the intensity of build while still allowing me to get structured workouts in. I'll definitely take a look at the traditional base plans to see which best fits into my overall plan. Thanks for the recommendation!

Hi, currently our logic averages the 2 and then reduces that average by 10% but we plan to revise this such that it takes the better average power of the two efforts and reduces it by 90%. This way, your best effort will be used to estimate your FTP exacting no penalty should you miss the mark on one of your two 8-minute efforts.

Until we revise this code, you can manually calculate that value using 90% of your best 8-minute average power and update your FTP in your Profile. Sorry for the inconvenience!

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Head Coach at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast