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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
I'm of half a mind to just do my own Chung-style testing of a Flo6 vs a Bontrager Aeolus 6 using an outdoor course and doing enough repetition to account for wind gusts, etc.. If there is indeed a 25W difference @50km/h per the Hambini graph, it should pop right out in the data. (But if I do this I will present my data as a hobbyist, not an expert).

Good idea actually. If you test on a relatively windy day you should see something. Might need lots of reps, but I bet you'd do better than +-15W uncertainty in a reasonable amount of time. Do you have a spreadsheet where you can set a wind vector for VE?
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
damon is, beyond this, the singular model in our industry for how to be the smartest guy in the room, and the most gracious guy in the room, simultaneously. (usually the ungracious folk prove out to be pretty unsmart as well.)

+1...!!!

Pretty sure he is my favorite bike forum poster. Love it when he takes the time.
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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ericMPro wrote:
exactly. Zipp or Enve would be tilting at windmills, but Flo is more in his sphere of influence. A startup done right by a couple of likeable guys.

imswimmer328 wrote:
Because of their performance? Maybe I'm just missing something, but hambini seems to be taking flo's results personally

He is a retailer of bottom brackets.

I wonder if his next project is wheels?

Maurice
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [ddsg] [ In reply to ]
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ddsg wrote:
From the WW thread, the accusation that FLO pays forum members to shill for them is based on Tom A receiving an unsollicited free wheel from Flo after his garage was broken into and a number of his bikes and wheels were stolen.

That's a bit of a stretch imo...

No shit...Hambone is quite the piece of work.

After this BS about a legal letter (letters, actually...who else imaginarily sent him something?) any credibility he had remaining should vanish completely.

I'm starting to wonder if Hambone knows a guy named Joaquin, in Spain...or Frank Day?

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=1542446#p1542446

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...fire%3F_-)_P1310547/

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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RChung wrote:
trail wrote:
BigHammer wrote:

The most disappointing aspect of this entire thread is that the idea Hambini proposed intrigues me. What if the basic premise is correct? How do we learn more? And from which....credible....source?


I think we'll learn more once we get a handle on the best practices on using all the new "aero sticks" to test equipment. If there is a significant difference between "real world airflow" and "non-louvered wind tunnel flow" it should eventually emerge.

I'm of half a mind to just do my own Chung-style testing of a Flo6 vs a Bontrager Aeolus 6 using an outdoor course and doing enough repetition to account for wind gusts, etc.. If there is indeed a 25W difference @50km/h per the Hambini graph, it should pop right out in the data. (But if I do this I will present my data as a hobbyist, not an expert).

If so, the measurements of CdA we find in the wind tunnel would not be usable for predicting power or speed in the real world, nor the measurements of CdA found by widely varying speed in field tests. In addition, applications like Best Bike Split would be way off.

Careful, Robert...it was that line of reasoning that eventually caused me to be tarred with the "shill" label by Hambone.

BTW, do you all know that he thinks Andy Coggan runs BestBikeSplit.com? <LOL>

I'm starting to think it's best to consider him a "performance artist"...his "sock puppet" posts supposedly from his co-workers were somewhat amusing.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
Careful, Robert...it was that line of reasoning that eventually caused me to be tarred with the "shill" label by Hambone.

BTW, do you all know that he thinks Andy Coggan runs BestBikeSplit.com? <LOL>

I'm starting to think it's best to consider him a "performance artist"...his "sock puppet" posts supposedly from his co-workers were somewhat amusing.

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=6777647#p6777647
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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That thread had its 11th anniversary yesterday.

It still kinda makes me sad.
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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moderator edit: i'm removing what you wrote, but i'm not taking any further action. in way of explanation, i'm not comfortable with your first post here being a pointed criticism of another reader forum, and a specific allegation against one of its moderators. you may feel free to attack the moderator of THIS forum. but you must begin any such attack with, "dan, you ignorant slut..."
Last edited by: Slowman: Oct 27, 18 20:00
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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I literally wasted hours reading that whole Joaquin thread today and I had bottom brackets due for maintenance....

I had tried so long to avoid reading it...
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [iamuwere] [ In reply to ]
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iamuwere wrote:
I literally wasted hours reading that whole Joaquin thread today and I had bottom brackets due for maintenance....

I had tried so long to avoid reading it...

You're welcome??

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
Slowman wrote:
damon is, beyond this, the singular model in our industry for how to be the smartest guy in the room, and the most gracious guy in the room, simultaneously. (usually the ungracious folk prove out to be pretty unsmart as well.)


+1...!!!

Pretty sure he is my favorite bike forum poster. Love it when he takes the time.


+2 its the gold standart
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [mvenneta] [ In reply to ]
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Seriously. The LR......

This lot are amateurs
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
I'm starting to wonder if Hambone knows a guy named Joaquin, in Spain...or Frank Day?

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=1542446#p1542446

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...fire%3F_-)_P1310547/

Holy F. That's before my time and now you're going to make me to waste approx. 3 hours which I could better use to perform basic home maintenance tasks or (*shudder*) train.

Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [iamuwere] [ In reply to ]
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I reserve this one for toilet reading... It's become part of my morning ritual. I'm at the part where people are still waiting for Joaquin to provide the power file...

iamuwere wrote:
I literally wasted hours reading that whole Joaquin thread today and I had bottom brackets due for maintenance....

I had tried so long to avoid reading it...

What's your CdA?
Last edited by: trailerhouse: Oct 28, 18 16:37
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Post deleted by windschatten [ In reply to ]
Last edited by: windschatten: Oct 28, 18 20:42
Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [windschatten] [ In reply to ]
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windschatten wrote:
If that thread shows me anything it sure is a testimony how certain people just are entrenched in their 'investments'.
The most vocal are those who either are industry stakeholders (designer, manufacturer. salespeople) or consumers with varying expertise (0 to half baked), the latter with no ability to even remotely approach the sophistication of the experimental preambles used for this study.

What thread?
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [windschatten] [ In reply to ]
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windschatten wrote:
The most vocal are those who either are industry stakeholders (designer, manufacturer. salespeople) or consumers with varying expertise (0 to half baked), the latter with no ability to even remotely approach the sophistication of the experimental preambles used for this study.

Oh, please...đŸ™„

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Post deleted by windschatten [ In reply to ]
Last edited by: windschatten: Oct 28, 18 20:55
Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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RChung wrote:


That thread had its 11th anniversary yesterday.

It still kinda makes me sad.

well, since it has been 11 years, did you really get sent a second file?

And have you since encountered another example of, "an electrical interference loop?" Which would be so awesome.
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [windschatten] [ In reply to ]
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windschatten wrote:
My bad, I changed "half-baked" to "amateurs" in the original thread.
As in any profession, there are those who do, and those who don't.

I'd still like to know what thread you are referring to.
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
windschatten wrote:
My bad, I changed "half-baked" to "amateurs" in the original thread.
As in any profession, there are those who do, and those who don't.

I'd still like to know what thread you are referring to.

Since he was replying to the OP, I'm fairly certain he means WeightWeenies thread.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
Since he was replying to the OP, I'm fairly certain he means WeightWeenies thread.

Wow. I mean really, wow. So he believes that just because Hambini says it over and over again?

I must say, this entire experience has been very educational for me. I guess your average person believes that science works about the same as politics. All bluster, BS, and spin.
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
Tom A. wrote:
Since he was replying to the OP, I'm fairly certain he means WeightWeenies thread.


Wow. I mean really, wow. So he believes that just because Hambini says it over and over again?

I must say, this entire experience has been very educational for me. I guess your average person believes that science works about the same as politics. All bluster, BS, and spin.

There are days, more and more often today, where I think he may be right. you don't have to look very far for examples where bluster, BS, and spin have eclipsed all rational thought.
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]
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ajthomas wrote:
RChung wrote:
That thread had its 11th anniversary yesterday.

It still kinda makes me sad.


well, since it has been 11 years, did you really get sent a second file?

And have you since encountered another example of, "an electrical interference loop?" Which would be so awesome.

I believe so, but that experience was so distasteful that I didn't look at it and I deleted it.

I got asked to examine a file that someone had suspicions about but I declined.
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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I go to Taiwan for 1 week and I miss all of this!!!
Damon drops a single word analysis of the protocol.. Tom and Robert reminisce about Joaquin and Shambolic and Dan drops a wicked SNL reference.. feeling so far off the back!!

I did share some backchannel chatting with Hambini a few weeks back and he seemed reasonable in that, but ultimately his answers to my logistical questions don't hold up in my opinion. Taking an alternate approach, my questions were form the direction of how can you possibly have put a live rider in a tunnel for a 26 minute protocol x 20+ wheel combinations, and even assuming that's possible, how can you possibly claim 2.5% error when that really isn't possible once there is a human involved. He claims they did it, but from my experience this just isn't possible for a number of reasons, the big one being that humans are human.. getting a few minutes of clean and repeatable data can be hard, so getting 20+ blocks of 26 minutes feels impossible to me and there's no way to claim that level of repetition as we've shown that something even as simple as a rider getting cold over the course of a tunnel test can change their position enough affect data way more than 2.5% making repeat runs not repeatable, so claiming that level of accuracy and repeatability over weeks of half hour tunnel sessions doesn't hold up IMO.

I have to say that I love the concept of using a sort of wind tunnel duty cycle to look at a wide range of situations and flow characteristics..I also love and can appreciate the need to add more 'real world' type flow imperfections, however, it seems like the biggest benefit of doing this would be to look at the boundaries of the handling piece of the equation which as we've discussed in the 'Josh and Slowman Debate Handling' thread, is something that we know some stuff about, but really not all that much when you get down to it.

I liked ruff's question:" What are your thoughts regarding the premise of Hambini's testing protocol; that small oscillations in the flow field and transient yaw movements (more closely modeling outdoor riding conditions) can have a significant effect on the drag and stability results? "

As Robert and Tom pointed out, the current tunnel protocols have succeeded in producing CdA graphs that can be used to predict real world event times within a few %. I have no doubt that we are collectively still missing some terms from our equation, but the reality is that what we are missing must be orders of magnitude smaller than what we already know and likely have more of an effect on handling or other factors which are not captured in pure watts/velocity/time calculations. Again though, if our current models are giving us predictions accurate within a few %, then we have to believe that whatever we are missing at most represents those few % and nothing more on the drag/power side of the equation and if there is any significance it would be more in the handling equation.

Also, greenplease, rruff, trail and nealhe all had good questions about flow measurement and adaptability. Zipp started designing for higher yaw based on some models that assumed a bi-modal distribution of yaw that looked more or less like 2 bell curves meeting at zero and ending at some peak yaw value... we used to have all this on the zipp site which is now pretty thin on info.. anyway the original assumption from the late 90's early 2000's was that if peak yaw for a day was say 30degrees and you were riding a loop shaped course (not out and back) then your distribution would be a bell shaped curve from -30 to 0 and another one from 0 to +30 so you would have peak probability somewhere from say 10-20. This was somewhat validated with early GPS as we started overlaying weather data (with reduced wind velocity to account for ground effects) onto course data. By 2004 we were pretty accurately predicting TT times with this model for CSC.

As riders get faster, this peak yaw decreases, but we realized in our development that the best rim shapes would lie on the curve generated by a disc wheel.. so the goal became to mimic a disc to as high a yaw angle as possible. Then companies started doing some public testing using whirligig style probes and showed real world yaw angles were distributed much lower and closer to zero than our modeling had shown. We then compared whirligig type instruments to the Alphamantis Aerostick and realized that there was a smoothing/damping effect to wind angle with this type of probe. With the aerostick we saw that wind angle changes can and do happen in steps (I think Kraig Willet posted something like this) but the whirligig smooths these changes into curves as it has to traverse a range of angles to make the change. So there is a sort of central limit theorem effect in play with that device as at say 30-60 Hz is ends up recording a lot of transitional yaw angles that you don't see with something like the aerostick.

http://www.SILCA.cc
Check out my podcast, inside stories from more than 20 years of product and tech innovation from inside the Pro Peloton and Pro Triathlon worlds!
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