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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
surrey85 wrote:
From the Hambini test result page (link in OP):
Quote:
FOLLOW UP... Letters from Lawyers

Shortly after writing this blog post, the author(s) received a letter from a firm of solicitors representing FLO cycling. They complained this page depicted their wheels in a poor light, the test protocol was not openly published (basically they were too stupid to understand it) and they did not like the statement that they had a limited understanding of the aerodynamics of rotating objects. They wanted their power figures removed from the data along with threats of court action


It should be noted that FLO Cycling have a somewhat questionable strategy of paying prominent forum members in a number of popular cycling/tri forums to endorse their products. They usually do this under the premise of free or heavily discounted wheels



Whats up with this? I have no horse in this race and have previously called Hambini out in this thread for the sometimes condescending tone with all the "we're rocket engineers we know better" but do people need to be careful now when they conduct aero tests and post their own findings?



Huh. That's not good. Too bad that Hambini seems to have the social maturity of a 5 year-old, and too bad that Flo chose the legal route.

None of what Hambini is claiming is true. Please read my previous post.


Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [Canadian] [ In reply to ]
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Canadian wrote:

None of what Hambini is claiming is true. Please read my previous post.

Wow. Thanks for the clarification. I'll edit my post.
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
Yes. Ask for their protocol, take the fastest wheels they tested, and go back to the tunnel. Flo resorting to a threatening letter is childish bullying especially considering that they do not have the resources to actually follow through with their threat.

None of what Hambini is claiming is true. Please read my previous post.


Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [turdburgler] [ In reply to ]
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turdburgler wrote:
Sheesh. Solicitors involved?

Hambini might come across as crass, but legal threats like this just make FLO look terrible. Don't talk about performance and aero information folks; solicitors might be knocking down your door if so.

None of what Hambini is claiming is true. Please read my previous post.


Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [BryanD] [ In reply to ]
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BryanD wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:
Yes. Ask for their protocol, take the fastest wheels they tested, and go back to the tunnel. Flo resorting to a threatening letter is childish bullying especially considering that they do not have the resources to actually follow through with their threat.


How would you know what Flo's resources are?


To prosecute such a case would a couple hundred grand at minimum (cash they don’t have) and take several years. Further, they likely wouldn’t prevail because they could not prove damages (and likely couldn’t prove that Hambini and his colleagues were actually wrong). An assumption here, but assuming that the U.K. Legal system functions similarly to the U.S, Flo would then have to pay Hambini’s legal fees (more money Flo doesn’t have).

Edit: and Flo is probably well aware that they don’t have the resources and that they wouldn’t prevail which makes their response even more childish. I always liked them but, in light of how they’ve responded, I will no longer recommend them. That might result in... maybe 5-10 fewer wheel sets sold over the next year 🤷🏼‍♂️ so you might say “who cares?” However they’re also losing future evangelists and those losses snowball quickly for a small brand. Flo could have taken the high road and gone back to the tunnel. Instead they chose the low road. Ironically the high road would have been a cheaper route even at $1,000/hour at A2.
Last edited by: GreenPlease: Oct 25, 18 9:19
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [BryanD] [ In reply to ]
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BryanD wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:
Yes. Ask for their protocol, take the fastest wheels they tested, and go back to the tunnel. Flo resorting to a threatening letter is childish bullying especially considering that they do not have the resources to actually follow through with their threat.

How would you know what Flo's resources are?
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
BryanD wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:
Yes. Ask for their protocol, take the fastest wheels they tested, and go back to the tunnel. Flo resorting to a threatening letter is childish bullying especially considering that they do not have the resources to actually follow through with their threat.


How would you know what Flo's resources are?


To prosecute such a case would a couple hundred grand at minimum (cash they don’t have) and take several years. Further, they likely wouldn’t prevail because they could not prove damages (and likely couldn’t prove that Hambini and his colleagues were actually wrong). An assumption here, but assuming that the U.K. Legal system functions similarly to the U.S, Flo would then have to pay Hambini’s legal fees (more money Flo doesn’t have).

LOLOLOLOLOL. So have you seen Flo's bank account? These assumptions are dangerous and wrong. Frankly, I'm disappointed you would even post that. You know who knows what is in their bank account? Jon and Chris.

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [Canadian] [ In reply to ]
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Canadian wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:
Yes. Ask for their protocol, take the fastest wheels they tested, and go back to the tunnel. Flo resorting to a threatening letter is childish bullying especially considering that they do not have the resources to actually follow through with their threat.

None of what Hambini is claiming is true. Please read my previous post.

So to clarify, you contacted Hambini directly and not through a third party? Also, why do you want your power figures removed? I mean... they don’t look good for you... but all the other results seem to stack up pretty well.

Btw: I consider your request to be a cop out. If you think Hambini is wrong grab a couple of the fastest rims he/they tested and go back to the tunnel for a shootout. Whether you like it or not, there’s now a cloud of uncertainty hanging over your product. Asking Hambini to remove your product from his test data isn’t going to remove that cloud. The internet never forgets.
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
Canadian wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:
Yes. Ask for their protocol, take the fastest wheels they tested, and go back to the tunnel. Flo resorting to a threatening letter is childish bullying especially considering that they do not have the resources to actually follow through with their threat.


None of what Hambini is claiming is true. Please read my previous post.


So to clarify, you contacted Hambini directly and not through a third party?

The only contact anyone from FLO has had with Hambini is in the comment field of his blog post or through twitter. No third parties have contacted him on our behalf. To reiterate what I said:

There are no lawyers involved, no letters have been sent, we have never asked to have our power figures removed from the study, there have been no threats of court action, and we do not pay any of the forum members on this forum.

Also, why do you want your power figures removed? I mean... they don’t look good for you... but all the other results seem to stack up pretty well.

We do not want the power figures removed, nor have we ever in any way requested that they be removed. Hambini is free to do whatever study he wants.

Btw: I consider your request to be a cop out.

We never made a request to have power figures removed.

If you think Hambini is wrong grab a couple of the fastest rims he/they tested and go back to the tunnel for a shootout. Whether you like it or not, there’s now a cloud of uncertainty hanging over your product. Asking Hambini to remove your product from his test data isn’t going to remove that cloud. The internet never forgets.

Again... we never requested to have our wheels removed from the study.


Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [BryanD] [ In reply to ]
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BryanD wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:
BryanD wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:
Yes. Ask for their protocol, take the fastest wheels they tested, and go back to the tunnel. Flo resorting to a threatening letter is childish bullying especially considering that they do not have the resources to actually follow through with their threat.


How would you know what Flo's resources are?


To prosecute such a case would a couple hundred grand at minimum (cash they don’t have) and take several years. Further, they likely wouldn’t prevail because they could not prove damages (and likely couldn’t prove that Hambini and his colleagues were actually wrong). An assumption here, but assuming that the U.K. Legal system functions similarly to the U.S, Flo would then have to pay Hambini’s legal fees (more money Flo doesn’t have).

LOLOLOLOLOL. So have you seen Flo's bank account? These assumptions are dangerous and wrong. Frankly, I'm disappointed you would even post that. You know who knows what is in their bank account? Jon and Chris.

You can surmise what financial resources someone has pretty quickly if you know what you’re doing.
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
BryanD wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:
Yes. Ask for their protocol, take the fastest wheels they tested, and go back to the tunnel. Flo resorting to a threatening letter is childish bullying especially considering that they do not have the resources to actually follow through with their threat.


How would you know what Flo's resources are?


To prosecute such a case would a couple hundred grand at minimum (cash they don’t have) and take several years. Further, they likely wouldn’t prevail because they could not prove damages (and likely couldn’t prove that Hambini and his colleagues were actually wrong). An assumption here, but assuming that the U.K. Legal system functions similarly to the U.S, Flo would then have to pay Hambini’s legal fees (more money Flo doesn’t have).

Edit: and Flo is probably well aware that they don’t have the resources and that they wouldn’t prevail which makes their response even more childish. I always liked them but, in light of how they’ve responded, I will no longer recommend them. That might result in... maybe 5-10 fewer wheel sets sold over the next year 🤷🏼‍♂️ so you might say “who cares?” However they’re also losing future evangelists and those losses snowball quickly for a small brand. Flo could have taken the high road and gone back to the tunnel. Instead they chose the low road. Ironically the high road would have been a cheaper route even at $1,000/hour at A2.

Again, we did not threaten legal action, or send a letter, etc etc. We did not take the "low road" as you are claiming we did.


Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [Canadian] [ In reply to ]
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Canadian wrote:
Ok before this gets out of hand, ABSOLUTELY NONE of this is true. There are no lawyers involved, no letters have been sent, we have never asked to have our power figures removed from the study, there have been no threats of court action, and we do not pay any of the forum members on this forum.

I really have no idea what Hambini's is talking about or what he is trying to accomplish by starting this rumor.

This has been too much like Ashley Horner from the start....

Regardless of whether you are a Hambini fan or believe he is a crackpot looking for attention, it's important to remember this:

From Hambini's page: "The MAXIMUM EXPERIMENTAL ERROR has been calculated at +/- 2.5%"
It's high drag "full rider sitting up on road bike" testing. On different days. The experimental error is very high compared to the item being isolated (wheels). For instance, for the 50km/hr case, median power is ~595W, so +-2.5% is +-15W... you're overlapping error bars with nearly every wheel tested.

Hambini has said that he plans to test with a mannequin in the future, and will also do a full write up on the protocol and its rationale. I'd suggest waiting for that.
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
You can surmise what financial resources someone has pretty quickly if you know what you’re doing.

Oh really? Give us your expert Flo financial analysis

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
Canadian wrote:
Ok before this gets out of hand, ABSOLUTELY NONE of this is true. There are no lawyers involved, no letters have been sent, we have never asked to have our power figures removed from the study, there have been no threats of court action, and we do not pay any of the forum members on this forum.
I really have no idea what Hambini's is talking about or what he is trying to accomplish by starting this rumor.

This has been too much like Ashley Horner from the start....
Regardless of whether you are a Hambini fan or believe he is a crackpot looking for attention, it's important to remember this:
From Hambini's page: "The MAXIMUM EXPERIMENTAL ERROR has been calculated at +/- 2.5%"
It's high drag "full rider sitting up on road bike" testing. On different days. The experimental error is very high compared to the item being isolated (wheels). For instance, for the 50km/hr case, median power is ~595W, so +-2.5% is +-15W... you're overlapping error bars with nearly every wheel tested.
Hambini has said that he plans to test with a mannequin in the future, and will also do a full write up on the protocol and its rationale. I'd suggest waiting for that.

Chris, thanks for weighing in. He needs to post the letter. If he's lying, any credibility he had is gone. If you're lying or playing word games and technicalities, your credibility is gone (but I don't believe that to be the case!). He should either comply and remove some entries or consult a lawyer and name names and post some confirmation. I do know that in some jurisdictions, lawyers can sue on behalf of clients they don't have (I forget which) - could that be the case here? I would like to think Europe would be more sane than that, but maybe not.

And rruff, that's the thing about this. Flo aside, there's been a ton of indignation about this test despite the fact that very little difference has been shown. It's interesting, intellectually, because it makes sense that aero could be different with whipping wind vs steady wind (even if the yaw average is identical), but the "best case" for his experiment is a few watts either way, which is nothing world-changing (did anyone really think wheel ranks don't change by at least a few watts under different conditions?). This whole thing has been a tempest in a teacup because of his snarky attitude and then being fed by all the righteous indignation from the people demanding more details. Much, as you said, the AH thread was mostly about a half-dozen or so people arguing in circles about sexism vs skepticism.

That covers most of the web these days, sadly.

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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So, as you say this thread and comments from hambini have taken a turn for the weird.

In effect he/they appear to be walking away from discussing the science and scope of their testing into the bizarre realm of publicly singling out flo with personal attacks and unfounded allegations.

So back to the science, I keep looking back at yours/Tom A’s etc posts and it appears they haven’t responded.

As the discussion stands now with the data they have provided is this a reasonable data set? Reasonable protocol etc?

Thanks,
Maurice
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [mauricemaher] [ In reply to ]
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mauricemaher wrote:
So back to the science, I keep looking back at yours/Tom A’s etc posts and it appears they haven’t responded.

As the discussion stands now with the data they have provided is this a reasonable data set? Reasonable protocol etc?

Thanks,
Maurice

No.

Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [damon_rinard] [ In reply to ]
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damon_rinard wrote:
mauricemaher wrote:
So back to the science, I keep looking back at yours/Tom A’s etc posts and it appears they haven’t responded.

As the discussion stands now with the data they have provided is this a reasonable data set? Reasonable protocol etc?

Thanks,
Maurice

No.

Thanks,

No dog in this fight, I still have a garage full of tubulars. Currently the performance of my wallet is more important than the 2-4 minutes of performance I would gain by switching to clinchers.

My comments come as a layman, basically trying to sort out the wheel list VS all of the other thread diversions to date.

Cheers,
Maurice
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
GreenPlease wrote:
BryanD wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:
BryanD wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:
Yes. Ask for their protocol, take the fastest wheels they tested, and go back to the tunnel. Flo resorting to a threatening letter is childish bullying especially considering that they do not have the resources to actually follow through with their threat.


How would you know what Flo's resources are?


To prosecute such a case would a couple hundred grand at minimum (cash they don’t have) and take several years. Further, they likely wouldn’t prevail because they could not prove damages (and likely couldn’t prove that Hambini and his colleagues were actually wrong). An assumption here, but assuming that the U.K. Legal system functions similarly to the U.S, Flo would then have to pay Hambini’s legal fees (more money Flo doesn’t have).

LOLOLOLOLOL. So have you seen Flo's bank account? These assumptions are dangerous and wrong. Frankly, I'm disappointed you would even post that. You know who knows what is in their bank account? Jon and Chris.

You can surmise what financial resources someone has pretty quickly if you know what you’re doing.

Maybe I missed something, but I don’t remember FLO getting caught in any blatant misrepresentation during its tenure here. I think they deserve a little better treatment than you’re giving them in this thread.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [mauricemaher] [ In reply to ]
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mauricemaher wrote:
So, as you say this thread and comments from hambini have taken a turn for the weird.

It was pretty weird from the start....

I wouldn't conclude anything from what's been presented so far.
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I'm typing up a correction/apology to Chris now and a response to Bryan's post. Both will take some time. I've also reached out to Hambini for his comments.

Side note: Greg (or you) have a correction to make on the front page article regarding Past and Future of Carbon Fiber

Quote:
Finally, the last big ‘pro’ of carbon is that – at least in theory – it lasts a long time. Alloys such as aluminum and steel have a relatively short fatigue life compared to high-tech carbon fiber.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_limit


Quote:
Fatigue limit, endurance limit, and fatigue strength are all expressions used to describe a property of materials: the amplitude (or range) of cyclic stress that can be applied to the material without causing fatigue failure.[1] Ferrous alloys and titanium alloys[2] have a distinct limit, an amplitude below which there appears to be no number of cycles that will cause failure. Other structural metals such as aluminium and copper do not have a distinct limit and will eventually fail even from small stress amplitudes.
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
I'm typing up a correction/apology to Chris now and a response to Bryan's post. Both will take some time. I've also reached out to Hambini for his comments.

Side note: Greg (or you) have a correction to make on the front page article regarding Past and Future of Carbon Fiber

Quote:
Finally, the last big ‘pro’ of carbon is that – at least in theory – it lasts a long time. Alloys such as aluminum and steel have a relatively short fatigue life compared to high-tech carbon fiber.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_limit

Quote:
Fatigue limit, endurance limit, and fatigue strength are all expressions used to describe a property of materials: the amplitude (or range) of cyclic stress that can be applied to the material without causing fatigue failure.[1] Ferrous alloys and titanium alloys[2] have a distinct limit, an amplitude below which there appears to be no number of cycles that will cause failure. Other structural metals such as aluminium and copper do not have a distinct limit and will eventually fail even from small stress amplitudes.

i haven't even read greg's article yet. and you and i are both hijacking the thread. while what you quote from wikipedia is true, in practice what we see in our industry is an actual, distinct limit to a system's life. this is the basis of fatigue testing. not ballistic testing, crash test dummy type stuff, which the industry also does (for forks and other parts), but fatigue testing to failure, which would be an oxymoron if the loads applied to the system were below the threshold mentioned above. in the real world of bikes, there are prescribed industry standards for fatigue life, measured in cycles at a given load. i'm way past knowing what they are anymore. but i think damon or whomever wants to chime in will add color to this.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
...but i think damon or whomever wants to chime in will add color to this.

Hi Dan,

Yes, despite it's endurance limit, steel bicycle products can and do fail in fatigue.

Carbon (well made) has a very, very long life. I once "inherited" a carbon fiber frame that had been fatigue tested for five (5!) lifetimes. (That's a story I can tell you later.) I raced it two seasons, my teammate raced it two seasons, a top local rider raced it two more seasons... I've lost track of it by now but I expect it's either still being ridden or it's so out of fashion it's been parked.

Cheers,
Damon

Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)
Quote Reply
Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [Toby] [ In reply to ]
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Toby wrote:
rruff wrote:
Canadian wrote:
Ok before this gets out of hand, ABSOLUTELY NONE of this is true. There are no lawyers involved, no letters have been sent, we have never asked to have our power figures removed from the study, there have been no threats of court action, and we do not pay any of the forum members on this forum.
I really have no idea what Hambini's is talking about or what he is trying to accomplish by starting this rumor.


This has been too much like Ashley Horner from the start....
Regardless of whether you are a Hambini fan or believe he is a crackpot looking for attention, it's important to remember this:
From Hambini's page: "The MAXIMUM EXPERIMENTAL ERROR has been calculated at +/- 2.5%"
It's high drag "full rider sitting up on road bike" testing. On different days. The experimental error is very high compared to the item being isolated (wheels). For instance, for the 50km/hr case, median power is ~595W, so +-2.5% is +-15W... you're overlapping error bars with nearly every wheel tested.
Hambini has said that he plans to test with a mannequin in the future, and will also do a full write up on the protocol and its rationale. I'd suggest waiting for that.


Chris, thanks for weighing in. He needs to post the letter. If he's lying, any credibility he had is gone. If you're lying or playing word games and technicalities, your credibility is gone (but I don't believe that to be the case!). He should either comply and remove some entries or consult a lawyer and name names and post some confirmation. I do know that in some jurisdictions, lawyers can sue on behalf of clients they don't have (I forget which) - could that be the case here? I would like to think Europe would be more sane than that, but maybe not.

And rruff, that's the thing about this. Flo aside, there's been a ton of indignation about this test despite the fact that very little difference has been shown. It's interesting, intellectually, because it makes sense that aero could be different with whipping wind vs steady wind (even if the yaw average is identical), but the "best case" for his experiment is a few watts either way, which is nothing world-changing (did anyone really think wheel ranks don't change by at least a few watts under different conditions?). This whole thing has been a tempest in a teacup because of his snarky attitude and then being fed by all the righteous indignation from the people demanding more details. Much, as you said, the AH thread was mostly about a half-dozen or so people arguing in circles about sexism vs skepticism.

That covers most of the web these days, sadly.

agreed, i thought hambini et al were bringing some new thinking to the aero testing table. they seem to be intelligent and knowledgeable with potential to contribute. regardless of whether their actual protocol and hence results were valid, the principle that static conditions in a wind tunnel might not be representative of dynamic gusting conditions in the real world seems worthy of investigation. it is unfortunate that one way or another this has been lost in the usual internet arguing
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [damon_rinard] [ In reply to ]
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damon_rinard wrote:

No.

I'm kinda glad I was too busy to follow this thread earlier.
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [damon_rinard] [ In reply to ]
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damon_rinard wrote:
mauricemaher wrote:
So back to the science, I keep looking back at yours/Tom A’s etc posts and it appears they haven’t responded.

As the discussion stands now with the data they have provided is this a reasonable data set? Reasonable protocol etc?

Thanks,
Maurice

No.

Your company can't even make your bottom brackets to consistently meet the tolerances of the standard that you set. As an engineering manager how do you even sleep at night? Or do you even care that you are charging people lots of money in the West and effectively exploiting cheap far Eastern labor for the benefit of you and your shareholders?

HELLO HAMBINI FANS!!!
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