Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [billdsd] [ In reply to ]

May 21, 15 12:51

Post #301 of 1610 (12043 views)

billdsd wrote:

arby wrote:

Sometimes its less about "being visible" and more about staying "out of the way". Especially when a large number of drivers are under the influence of stress, cell phones, pets, radios, CD players, Ipods, Ipads, VDRs and even drugs and alcohol.

You think you're out of the way but then you get to the bottom of the hill and they think you're going slower than you are and they just barely pass and turn right in front of you in the right turn only lane after the shoulder ends and you slam into the side of their car.

It is about being visible and making it clear that they can't pass within the same lane.

Do you have any room for other plausible scenarios in your head? Any at all?

Many motorists have a grudge the second they see cyclists on the road. Many motorists are distracted while driving.

I could come up with equally as tragic and avoidable scenarios where cyclists are rear-ended in the middle of the lane by a distracted driver. That doesn't change anything!

Cyclists are at a disadvantage and bear the burden for being extra vigilant during their rides. This is purely in the name of safety. You take a risk every time you cycle outside in the event of an accident. As a result, it is prudent to ride a tad bit slower, give cars a little extra room, look both ways then look again, stop just in case when maybe you could have gone through without stopping etc. etc. Certain situations call for an appropriate response and change in behavior, not dangerous execution of rights in the name of cycling.

Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [MJuric] [ In reply to ]

May 21, 15 12:54

Post #302 of 1610 (12036 views)

MJuric wrote:

Is it possible that in the case of cycling that "Legally right" and "Personal safety" may not be one in the same?
...
I find this entire debate rather foolish. People need to ride as defensively as possible even if that means giving up some of their rights. Hard to claim your rights another day when you're compressed inside the wheel well of an SUV.

How many times are we going to have to rehash this tired argument?

Using the full lane is riding defensively. It's the safest way to ride given the road conditions in this spot on PCH. It's taught by Cycling Savvy, the League of American Bicycles, Cyclecraft, Effective Cycling, Bicycling Street Smarts and others. You may not understand it. Take a class. Read a book. Learn.

Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [MJuric] [ In reply to ]

May 21, 15 12:57

Post #303 of 1610 (12016 views)

MJuric wrote:

Is it possible that in the case of cycling that "Legally right" and "Personal safety" may not be one in the same?

When I was riding alot rarely was I asking my self the question "Is what I'm doing legally right?". The most often asked question to myself was "Is what I am doing safe?" In many cases I had the "Legal right" to do things that I purposefully DID NOT do because they weren't safe. Like it or not a 15lb pound and completely exposed rider of that bike will never win an encounter with a 2500 lb+ vehicle, never. Attempt to "Prove" and take control of my legal rights under such conditions is a fools errand.

This is particularly true since the majority of car drivers have no clue about the legal rights of cyclists and many of those that do care no more about those rights then many other rights of others they violate on a regular basis.

I find this entire debate rather foolish. People need to ride as defensively as possible even if that means giving up some of their rights. Hard to claim your rights another day when you're compressed inside the wheel well of an SUV.

~Matt

Of course it's possible that "Legally right" and "Personal safety" may not be one and the same. Often they are not. But I'm sure this cyclist was doing what he thought was safest, and as near as I can tell I would have made the same judgement. But that doesn't matter. What matters is that his judgement about his safety should be respected.

SAVE YOUR LIFE: Know the bike-car crash types and how to avoid them

Last edited by: Ninety5rpm: May 21, 15 12:57

Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]

May 21, 15 12:58

Post #304 of 1610 (12006 views)

Yeeper wrote:

Do you have any room for other plausible scenarios in your head? Any at all?

Many motorists have a grudge the second they see cyclists on the road. Many motorists are distracted while driving.

I could come up with equally as tragic and avoidable scenarios where cyclists are rear-ended in the middle of the lane by a distracted driver. That doesn't change anything!

Cyclists are at a disadvantage and bear the burden for being extra vigilant during their rides. This is purely in the name of safety. You take a risk every time you cycle outside in the event of an accident. As a result, it is prudent to ride a tad bit slower, give cars a little extra room, look both ways then look again, stop just in case when maybe you could have gone through without stopping etc. etc. Certain situations call for an appropriate response and change in behavior, not dangerous execution of rights in the name of cycling.

Why do you think that all of the widely recognized sources of bicycle safety teaching are teaching lane control for circumstances like this?

It's study and experience. I've ridden this way for too many years and 10's of thousands of miles to believe that you are correct. For the circumstances on this road, taking the lane is the safest way to ride. You may not believe if but that's because you don't understand why it works.

Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]

May 21, 15 13:02

Post #305 of 1610 (11984 views)

Yeeper wrote:

billdsd wrote:

arby wrote:

Sometimes its less about "being visible" and more about staying "out of the way". Especially when a large number of drivers are under the influence of stress, cell phones, pets, radios, CD players, Ipods, Ipads, VDRs and even drugs and alcohol.

You think you're out of the way but then you get to the bottom of the hill and they think you're going slower than you are and they just barely pass and turn right in front of you in the right turn only lane after the shoulder ends and you slam into the side of their car.

It is about being visible and making it clear that they can't pass within the same lane.

Do you have any room for other plausible scenarios in your head? Any at all?

Many motorists have a grudge the second they see cyclists on the road. Many motorists are distracted while driving.

I could come up with equally as tragic and avoidable scenarios where cyclists are rear-ended in the middle of the lane by a distracted driver. That doesn't change anything!

Cyclists are at a disadvantage and bear the burden for being extra vigilant during their rides. This is purely in the name of safety. You take a risk every time you cycle outside in the event of an accident. As a result, it is prudent to ride a tad bit slower, give cars a little extra room, look both ways then look again, stop just in case when maybe you could have gone through without stopping etc. etc. Certain situations call for an appropriate response and change in behavior, not dangerous execution of rights in the name of cycling.

This is bizarre. Billdsd is talking exclusively in terms of safety, and somehow Yeeper twists it into being about "execution of rights in the name of cycling". Why do you do that?

SAVE YOUR LIFE: Know the bike-car crash types and how to avoid them

Last edited by: Ninety5rpm: May 21, 15 13:02

Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [TriMyBest] [ In reply to ]

May 21, 15 13:02

Post #306 of 1610 (11980 views)

TriMyBest wrote:

TheForge wrote:

Thank you for starting such an epic thread. I don't think we have had one of these since the surfing lamb one.

^^^This^^^

The thing I want to know is whether the cyclist in question was wearing a gorilla costume, trucker cap, and cutting the course?

The one thing missing is the cyclist in question. So far we have had people who know him and somebody who tied with him about the incident at hand. But not that person. So he is brave enough to escape a possible road rage incident he would certainly lose, but not tell his story.

"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]

May 21, 15 13:02

Post #307 of 1610 (11979 views)

Yeeper wrote:

AlanShearer wrote:

I don't think there's any reasonable question that it was legal for the cyclist to take the lane, since it's a narrow lane and California law gives cyclists the right to ride in the road and does not require that they ride hin the shoulder, no matter how wide it may be.

Whether it's safe under the circumstances is something for the cyclist to decide. We should t be ceding our right to do something completely legal and, in our judgment, safe just because motorists are ignorant of the law.

The law of self-preservation comes to mind. Its better to live to fight (ride) another day.

If the guy wants to set an example for "ignorant motorists" then he can succeed. But if he wants to exercise his rights then he's going about it the wrong way in THIS SITUATION. Thats like one lone peasant standing up to the king's army. He wants to fight for his rights, but if his goal is to enjoy those rights tomorrow then he's going about it the worst way possible, regardless of his "right" to do so.

And again, as far as "legally" taking a lane. Even motorists can be ticketed for safety hazards and going TOO SLOW. So lets pretend the posted limit was 45-55mph. Granny is driving along a 55mph road at 30mph during rush hour and gets ticketed. Or better yet, its raining or snowing out and the posted limit is 45 or 55mph but conditions make it unsafe to travel at the LEGAL limit...a person can still be ticketed for doing 50 in a 55 because the conditions didn't allow for safe execution of 55mph.

Basically my point is there is some subjectivity and gray area to "legally" traveling a road by car or by bike. Traveling them is a privilege and you must submit to the possibility that you may be required to alter you use of the road at times. The bike can not feasibly travel the same speed as the cars and the rush hour volume and speed makes a bicycle on the road a hazard to the cyclist and motorists simply because of the situation.

Take that same situation at noon with almost no traffic and we have a different story.

If you had read my post a bit more carefully, you would have noticed that it didn't just talk about not ceding our rights. Rather, I said that we should cede our rights when also, "legal and, in our judgment, safe."

You imply that reasonable minds cannot disagree that "in this situation" taking the lane was a safe if not safer course of action. I don't see how you get that, especially since a good portion of people postinig in this thread who have riden that section, including me, and find taking the lane to be the reasonable option.

In my n=1 experience, I have never had a close call when taking the lane. I don't always take then lane, but will when in my opinion, it's the safe thing to do. I've certainly had a share of people honking and yelling, although even that isn't what I would call a regular occurrence. But I would take that over all the close calls and near side swipes when I've experienced when riding to the right.

What I don't think we should be doing is calling out and criticizing fellow cyclists who are riding legally and, in the exercise of their judgment, safely. The burden should be on motorists to know the rules of the road, pay attention, and understanding that they have to share with other users.

Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [billdsd] [ In reply to ]

May 21, 15 13:03

Post #308 of 1610 (11969 views)

Do any of the bike safety courses or manuals that tell you to ride in the middle of the road on the highway also suggest it may be safer to avoid crowded, well traveled roadways during rush hour?

Cyclists need to analyze and apply common sense to all aspects of their riding habits, including when to go riding. If you must go riding during rush hour, don't do it on crowded highways. You are an accident waiting to happen. That is part of what makes the rider from the OP stupid.

I know, I know: " He had a right to take the lane", " it was safe, defensive riding" and other such nonsense...

Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]

May 21, 15 13:04

Post #309 of 1610 (11967 views)

Who me? Or the cyclist in question?

"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [Ninety5rpm] [ In reply to ]

May 21, 15 13:08

Post #310 of 1610 (11941 views)

Of course it's possible that "Legally right" and "Personal safety" may not be one and the same. Often they are not. But I'm sure this cyclist was doing what he thought was safest, and as near as I can tell I would have made the same judgement. But that doesn't matter. What matters is that his judgement about his safety should be respected.

I'm not making a judgement on this particular case I'm making a judgement about the concept that it is "Your right" to "Take control of the lane". Sure it's "Your right", but in many cases it's not the safest choice. If this person thought they were taking the safest course of action, that is his choice. However the other cyclist that saw him is claiming his choice was not very safe and thus we have a "He said, she said" which I really have no interest in discussing at all.

Again speaking to the idea that "It's my right", sure it is, but be aware that engaging in your rights may not be the safest course of action.

~Matt

Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [billdsd] [ In reply to ]

May 21, 15 13:08

Post #311 of 1610 (11939 views)

billdsd wrote:

MJuric wrote:

Is it possible that in the case of cycling that "Legally right" and "Personal safety" may not be one in the same?
...
I find this entire debate rather foolish. People need to ride as defensively as possible even if that means giving up some of their rights. Hard to claim your rights another day when you're compressed inside the wheel well of an SUV.

How many times are we going to have to rehash this tired argument?

Using the full lane is riding defensively. It's the safest way to ride given the road conditions in this spot on PCH. It's taught by Cycling Savvy, the League of American Bicycles, Cyclecraft, Effective Cycling, Bicycling Street Smarts and others. You may not understand it. Take a class. Read a book. Learn.

A few straightforward questions:

Why do you think there are posted speed minimums on heavily trafficked roads?

Do you honestly trust in the focus and attention of all drivers on the road nowadays?

On a bike, is it safer to slow down to a speed where you can navigate obstacles and stop? Or ride in the middle of a busy road and hope drivers see you?

Speed limits and safe following distance laws exist because they allow vehicles adequate time to react. If you are riding in a shoulder and are afraid of branches and cars pulling out in FRONT of you, where you can clearly see, then don't you think you'e riding too fast?

I realize its not a perfect world, which is why we are arguing for safety rather than black and white laws. But a car can swerve and cut you off in the middle of the road just as easily as a car can pull out in front of you in the shoulder.

Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [billdsd] [ In reply to ]

May 21, 15 13:11

Post #312 of 1610 (11924 views)

Using the full lane is riding defensively. It's the safest way to ride given the road conditions in this spot on PCH. It's taught by Cycling Savvy, the League of American Bicycles, Cyclecraft, Effective Cycling, Bicycling Street Smarts and others. You may not understand it. Take a class. Read a book. Learn.

As I stated in my other response it may or may not be the safest course of action in this case. We have one person on the scene saying "No" and the other saying "Yes".

I'm speaking to the concept that always taking the lane just because it is your legal right is the "Best course of action always". Sorry, that is simply not true.

~Matt

Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]

May 21, 15 13:17

Post #313 of 1610 (11900 views)

Yeeper wrote:

Why do you think there are posted speed minimums on heavily trafficked roads?

Where? I can't remember the last time I saw a posted minimum speed limit sign in California. I don't even see them on controlled access highways where bicyclists are not allowed and where the signs might actually make sense. By the way, bicyclists are exempt from obeying posted minimum speed limits by CVC 22400(b), which is the law which covers posted minimum speed limits. Most states exempt bicyclists from minimum speed laws.

Quote:

Do you honestly trust in the focus and attention of all drivers on the road nowadays?

Absolutely not, which is one of the reasons I ride in the middle of the lane. It makes them pay attention.

Quote:

On a bike, is it safer to slow down to a speed where you can navigate obstacles and stop? Or ride in the middle of a busy road and hope drivers see you?

I don't "hope" they'll see me. I force them to notice me.

Quote:

Speed limits and safe following distance laws exist because they allow vehicles adequate time to react. If you are riding in a shoulder and are afraid of branches and cars pulling out in FRONT of you, where you can clearly see, then don't you think you'e riding too fast?

Reaction time is better if you're seen earlier, as you are in the middle of the lane. You're just making excuses because you feel that you need to be right, even though the bike safety community at large contradicts you. My experience riding as an edge rider and as a lane control rider also contradicts you.

Quote:

But a car can swerve and cut you off in the middle of the road just as easily as a car can pull out in front of you in the shoulder.

Actually no. When you're out in the lane they actually have to move left to get past you and that requires a bit more thought and planning. I had right hook close calls maybe every 3000 miles or so of riding. I haven't had one while controlling the lane yet, and I'm probably at around 40,000 or more miles since I started doing lane control.

Last edited by: billdsd: May 21, 15 13:24

Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]

May 21, 15 13:17

Post #314 of 1610 (11898 views)

Yeeper wrote:

But a car can swerve and cut you off in the middle of the road just as easily as a car can pull out in front of you in the shoulder.

I would argue that many drivers would make a point (ignorant as it may be) of cutting you off for taking the lane. Not only that, but seeing how close they can get to you as they cut you off.

Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [MJuric] [ In reply to ]

May 21, 15 13:19

Post #315 of 1610 (11889 views)

MJuric wrote:

As I stated in my other response it may or may not be the safest course of action in this case. We have one person on the scene saying "No" and the other saying "Yes".

I'm speaking to the concept that always taking the lane just because it is your legal right is the "Best course of action always". Sorry, that is simply not true.

Usually it is true.

In the situation that started this thread, it's definitely true.

Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [nhunter344] [ In reply to ]

May 21, 15 13:20

Post #316 of 1610 (11883 views)

nhunter344 wrote:

I would argue that many drivers would make a point (ignorant as it may be) of cutting you off for taking the lane. Not only that, but seeing how close they can get to you as they cut you off.

That can happen and it has happened to some people. There are ways to reduce the risk of that as well.

Take a Cycling Savvy course. You'll be glad you did.

Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [MJuric] [ In reply to ]

May 21, 15 13:22

Post #317 of 1610 (11874 views)

MJuric wrote:

Quote:

Of course it's possible that "Legally right" and "Personal safety" may not be one and the same. Often they are not. But I'm sure this cyclist was doing what he thought was safest, and as near as I can tell I would have made the same judgement. But that doesn't matter. What matters is that his judgement about his safety should be respected.

I'm not making a judgement on this particular case I'm making a judgement about the concept that it is "Your right" to "Take control of the lane". Sure it's "Your right", but in many cases it's not the safest choice.

Perhaps but how is that relevant in this discussion?

Quote:

If this person thought they were taking the safest course of action, that is his choice. However the other cyclist that saw him is claiming his choice was not very safe and thus we have a "He said, she said" which I really have no interest in discussing at all.

But that's the crux of it. Whose call is it? The guy out there with his ass on the line? Or the OP cager?

SAVE YOUR LIFE: Know the bike-car crash types and how to avoid them

Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [billdsd] [ In reply to ]

May 21, 15 13:22

Post #318 of 1610 (11870 views)

I am no road warrior.

http://cyclingsavvy.org/2011/05/i-am-no-road-warrior/

Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]

May 21, 15 13:25

Post #319 of 1610 (11856 views)

Do you honestly trust in the focus and attention of all drivers on the road nowadays?

I can say without question I would not be alive to day if I had exercised my right to ride in the middle of the road. No matter how brightly dressed you are you are a very small target and worse yet the human mind sees only what it is expecting and most people don't expect to see a bicycling right in from of them in the middle of the road. Stay in the middle or the left of the lane and the driver doesn't know how to react, you're dead. Stay to the left or on the shoulder and the driver will almost always swerve away from you.

There's a HUGE campaign across the country about "Start seeing motorcycles". Why do you think they get hit so often, because the human brain does not register them as vehicles as easily as we do cars. Quite frankly the brain filters them out in many cases completely. We as bikers have the ability to nearly stay out of the path of cars completely. It's simply silly to not do so.

So "Take your legal right" and drive in the middle of the lane and take the chance that a driver is distracted or simply does not register you and get run over completely or ride as far right as possible and more then likely just get winged at worst? Yes I know it's my legal right to drive in the middle of the lane, but I also know that the human mind is VERY flawed when it comes to certain levels of pattern recognition and that's a best case scenario of an attentive driver, forget a driver that is simply in la la land or screwing around. Being in the middle or to the left of a lane under those conditions is death sentence and quite frankly I can't imagine anyone with any concept of reality and or the human mind promoting such actions.

~Matt

Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]

May 21, 15 13:29

Post #320 of 1610 (11837 views)

i just want to say that any thread that will draw matt and theforge out of the lavender room at the same time, for the same discussion, is pretty epic. carry on...

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [billdsd] [ In reply to ]

May 21, 15 13:35

Post #321 of 1610 (11802 views)

"I don't "hope" they'll see me. I force them to notice me."

This statement only lessens your argument and actually is rather silly. So your and your carbon frame bike are going to force a semi-truck or a soccer mom to take note of you? Ouch.

Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [billdsd] [ In reply to ]

May 21, 15 13:38

Post #322 of 1610 (11789 views)

Absolutely not, which is one of the reasons I ride in the middle of the lane. It makes them pay attention.

You earlier told me to read a book. I'm suggesting you read a book on how the human mind filters out noise and recognizes patterns. They can't "Pay attention" when they don't see you. Read a study or two on why motorcycles get hit and many other studies on the human minds very robust "Fillers". You may be riding in the middle of the road thinking "I will force them to pay attention to me". They will be driving down the road and never see you because their mind filters you out completely because their brain says "A bike in the middle of a road while I'm doing 50 MPH...that makes no sense....that can't be a bike".

Again, that's best case scenario. A distracted drive doing 50 MPH comes up on you so fast when you're doing your 15-20 MPH that they have no time to react.

The only people that you're "Safer from" would be the ones that would see you all the way to the right as well. You've put yourself in much more danger from everyone else who may whizz right by never seeing you if you were on the right.

I don't "hope" they'll see me. I force them to notice me.

Good luck with that since you're fighting against millions of years of human brain evolution that works very hard to filter you out because in that environment you make no sense.

Reaction time is better if you're seen earlier, as you are in the middle of the lane.

Not sure this is true and irrelevant in any case where the person doesn't see you at all or the person looks up to see you to late. Since the driver is on the left of the vehicle if you are in the middle or to the left of the lane you will likely have a very narrow profile to the driver as they are seeing your back. If you are to the right the driver is seeing you at an angle, much larger angle anyway, and you present a larger target.

When you're out in the lane they actually have to move left to get past you and that requires a bit more thought and planning.

This assumes A) they see you and B) they have enough time to slow to your speed. If this is the case they would do the same if you were on the right. In any case they do not see you you are dead. That is not the case if you are on the right.

I haven't had one while controlling the lane yet

Because you've created a scenario where you can't have close calls and the next failure by a driver will be your death. Call me crazy but I'd rather have close calls every 3K miles then one death every 100K miles.

~Matt

~Matt

Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [billdsd] [ In reply to ]

May 21, 15 13:39

Post #323 of 1610 (11781 views)

billdsd wrote:

I am no road warrior.

http://cyclingsavvy.org/2011/05/i-am-no-road-warrior/

Thanks for the link!

Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [Ninety5rpm] [ In reply to ]

May 21, 15 13:42

Post #324 of 1610 (11761 views)

Ninety5rpm wrote:

Shouldn't it say "The biggest communication problem is THAT we do not listen ...?"

/Grammar Police

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [Ninety5rpm] [ In reply to ]

May 21, 15 13:43

Post #325 of 1610 (11751 views)

Perhaps but how is that relevant in this discussion?

Because someone posted that you should "Take control of your lane" and that is what they were saying the person in the OP was doing. IT then becomes part of this discussion.

But that's the crux of it. Whose call is it? The guy out there with his ass on the line? Or the OP cager?

It's the person who is cycling call. In this case however we have one person, that was driving AND is a cyclist, saying that from the drivers seat the person was not acting safely. If a cyclist is saying that they did not think what was happening was safe what do you think Joe Schmoe non cyclist is thinking?

I have no idea as to this particularly situation as I was A) not there B) not familiar with terrain so I do not feel I can comment on this particular scenario. I'm simply saying that doing so riding in the middle of the lane or left of lane, IMO, for many reasons is not the safest course of action in most cases.

~Matt

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