This whole thread has reinforced my decision to do more mtn biking and return to racing Xterras.

Btw, I agree with your premise in this entire thing.

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Formerly DrD

Yes my summation of the argument being made is that it is better to be right and dead then, well, alive and humbled. Which is of course patently absurd. Actually reading this has made me a little sad...

I should have been more specific. I didn't look at his .fit file, I simply clicked on the link to his ride that was present in my Strava feed that morning. After talking with my friend, I wanted to see if his story checked out and the only truly objective data in all of this is his "power file." Granted, it is of limited usefulness - it tells us his speed and whether he was pedaling, hammering or coasting - but I thought it prudent to review prior to posting anything here.

I wasn't calculating W/kg.

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Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099

Yes. The gesture is very weak and used by so many assholes that it immediately tags the user as one.

I think it's a little more nuanced than that. In the long run, the optimal result is to force drivers to accept bicycles as vehicles, with the full rights and responsibilities that come with that status. In the short run, it's better to simply defer to the status quo and play it safe. It's akin to whether you want to take your peasantry happily or start a revolution, at the likely risk of death. I'm not entirely sure I would want to be that sacrificial lamb.

I still think you're an idiot for not knowing what value means, but I can respect that you've been level-headed in this thread. That said, I think honking and telling someone what to do on an open road is inherently going to be taken as condescension, and one would be delusional to expect anything other than the bird. It simply isn't the situation for diplomatic discourse about anything.

My first vehicle that I owned was a motorcycle, so it was what I rode to and from work, not just for fun. I was taught this same thing, and I cycle by that same mindset.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Pink/ Just FORCE them to see you!
/ Pink off

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Formerly DrD

If I am not comprehending you, please help me because I am admittedly confused.

You say I have no credibility, am merely passing along hearsay and have nothing to offer here because I was not present when the incident occurred.

At the same time, you were not present when the incident occurred, yet feel free to offer your opinion and insist it is the only viable opinion.

I'm having difficulty reconciling those two positions.

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Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099

You are a lawyer, aren't you? I'm beginning to see why you keep posting! :). (Don't worry, I feel the same way!)

Hey! I thought we all said we would avoid personal attacks and insults!

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Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099

Your words, not mine. I pay lawyers all day every day. :\

Yeah, it's a really nice (and scenic) path.

But, on the subject of safety, the designers apparently forgot about emergency access for someone injured on the path...I heard a horror story about someone having to be lifted over the fence separating the path from the freeway shoulder...Doh!

I don't know if we've ever met...we should go riding some day, if not.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

You call that rural riding? Come ride where I live in the land of 6" shoulders.

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_________________________________
I'll be what I am
A solitary man

I think this is key (the part in bold). Having moved from Switzerland (a country where cycling has long been accepted as a perfectly suitable way of using the road) to Australia (where many bogans don't consider that bikes have a right to use the roads, just as it's the case in the US), I have also clearly noticed this culture (if that's what you're referring to by this statement), where cyclists will very often feel the urge to excuse the actions of other cyclists and are a bit paranoid about this (the "if cyclists all behaved well we wouldn't have as many problems with drivers"). In the end, I don't think it will change the minds of those who think cyclists don't belong on the road or are not attentive and careful enough when in proximity to cyclists. It's just an excuse. Education of the population, over time, may.

Like other said, some astroturf has used this as an opportunity to push an agenda despite common sense. Its like pot legalization advocates. In my prior life, I was part of an organization that supported pot legalization, but I couldn't take seriously most of the people in my organization let alone other organizations that were pushing for pot legalization. They were pothead, they looked and sounded like Jeff Spicoli or hippies that didn't grow up. They can't win a debate because the minute the step on stage or open their mouth people don't want to listen. You can talk about the rights of cyclist until your blue in the fast, actions like this guys and those advocated by some of the people who came here today are damaging any cause. Nobody hits somebody intentionally, but I've been fucked with enough by people who were pissed off at any and all cyclist that a narrow margin of error could have been fatal. That is duffy's point, that is what I support.

I can think of several causes I have supported that were handled wrong by people claiming to support the cause. I already mentioned the pot heads, but anybody who knows me or has been to the LR knows I'm a big supporter of something I won't mention here. And some jack asses who thought it would be cool express their rights on the subject in the wrong way have now made it that I can't exercise that right in some places I frequently visit. I already pointed out an example where the town and its police took the side of motorist and it was precisely because of behavior like this. This might pass in California, but it doesn't in most places. You win support by being the standard and being better than those you want to convince. I'm not saying you shouldn't stand your ground. But ultimately there is a lot of ignorance on the part of motorist. Many don't think you should be on the road let alone in the middle, that is wrong on their part. If you can safely ride on the side, you safely ride on the side. You don't intentionally hold up traffic on a main thoroughfare so that you can have a little fun.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Doh! is right. Yikes.

As for the ride, sure.

You'd probably drop me in no time. Neck issues kept me off the road bike for a year or so (just got back on about 4 months ago) and now I can only take about and hour or so before it starts acting up. I'm slowly building up. Most of my riding these days is in the form of transportation.

Have a good one. I'm sure I'll see you around. I think I know who you are. If I see you I'll introduce myself.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

I said you don't have credibility with me because I don't know you, you are standing up for somebody who didn't have the balls to stand up for themselves and are defending actions I find disgusting. Among your first post were attacks on whether somebody was local, when we here do know them to be local. This has nothing to do with being there, you said in post 92 "REALLY? Who doesn't love riding their bike fast? We ride our bikes UP the hill, we can't enjoy a short blast DOWN them???

I saw the power file and he was just coasting at that speed. HR at 123bpm. Really, he should ride the brakes all the way down this short little descent?

Can't we keep just a LITTLE fun in this little sport/hobby of ours? Or can we now not coast down hills?"


That is defending irresponsible behavior in my opinion that again has consequences that go beyond this individual. As I have clearly stated, there is no place for weaving in and out of traffic on a busy road except when safety is a genuine concern. Like a pothole that can't be negotiated at any speed. There would have been no safety concern if he travelled down that road a slower speed where routine road debris wouldn't have been an issue. Nor would it be an issue on a road lesser travelled.




That is why you have no credibility with me. You defend this punk, you promote behavior that makes already hostile motorist more hostile, and you choose not to see it that way despite a fair number of people pointing it out. While I ultimately blame motorist for their bad behavior I blame people like you for people like me getting yelled at when I do ride on a bike route, I blame people like you when I get cans thrown at me, I blame people like you who honk at me because I'm on "their" road. I blame people like you for why I had to stop riding in San Antonio florida when I lived in the neighboring county.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

This. There will always be jerks, especially among redneck. How many times has somebody rolled coal on me while running or biking? I can't count on two hands. But it is the regular motorist that we need to win over, and you don't do it by pissing them off because you can.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

My point is that in countries where a cycling culture exists for a long time, these jerks (as you put it) don't have a ground for acting like they would do in Australia or the US, because it's widely accepted that bikes can be on the roads (and not on the shoulders). This said, in Europe, it is forbidden to ride on highways with your bike (for safety reasons), it's just that the road networks offer enough alternatives (which may not be as much the case in the US, and definitely not in Australia).

Not to mention its Malibu, who wants to chance riding in a lane with all those prescription medicated Hollywood types?? What if Mel Gibson goes on another bender?! Or a drugged up Kardashian is on the road....

Look how many grown ups ride on the sidewalk when there is a perfectly good bike route on the road? Whether they are there because they don't know they should be on the road or are scared (for good reason), this reinforces a belief of hostile motorist that cyclist do not belong on the road. That is an education issue. I remember in cub scouts and boy scouts the rules of cycling, but I don't recall ever hearing it in driver's ed or phys ed. So who knows how many people are never taught that. Like it or not, America is a vehicle dominated society. Our infrastructure over the last century was designed on this premise.

It will take systemic education or people knowing people who were hurt or died to change their minds. We don't need to reinforce negative stereotypes. There is an old joke about the Scot who built the town. Nobody remembered, but he fucked a goat once, and everybody does. This guy is a goat fucker. It probably felt good for him to stick it to duffy and anybody else who dare point out his irresponsible behavior. But that other guy behind duffy will remember this guy whenever he sees a cyclist on the road and associate that cyclist with this goat fucker.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

The cyclist I almost rear ended last year was one of those situations that the car in front of me either did not see the cyclist until late or just made a last second abrupt lane change. I was not tailgating the car in front but it was a 45mph zone 4 lane road. When the car in front me changed lanes quickly there before me was a cyclist in the middle right lane going about 15 mph. I had no where to go because the left lane had cars coming up fast and all I could do was brake hard. I don't know if that cyclist had any idea how close I came to hitting him. I did not honk or do anything or even get angry because I was too shaken up. My anxiety level was at peak levels for a number of minutes after this event.

According to Georgia law the cyclist had every right to be there, but IMO I still think that is a poor choice of roads to use in his commute or training. It was his prerogative and I want all cyclists here to have that right as I spend a lot of time out on the roads as well, but that was a near death episode for him. Had I hit him he probably wouldn't have survived and I would have had that memory of taking someone's life and maybe a child's father the remainder of my days.

Sometimes I own the lane and sometimes I hug the line. Most of the roads I use don't have an option anyway because it is edge of pavement then ditch. Sometimes I've just been fortunate to be hugging that outer pavement edge like two years ago on a "S" curved road when a driver came around the turn halfway over into my lane. Had it been a car he would have hit it head on and if I had of been in the middle of the lane he would have hit me, but fortunately I was at the outer edge so I was safe that time by a few feet.

I would love for Atlanta to be a cycling friendly city, but it sometimes seems like it is getting worse. I am a roadie that used to lead large group rides, but stopped after frustration of cyclists not following the ride rules. There were times we had individuals spread out over the road even in the other lane. We would talk to them and at times yell at them, but they just ignored the ride leaders. There are as many in my area making bad name for cyclists if not more than the cyclists trying to make a good name. Recently I heard of a shop ride (the shop was not responsible for this behavior) in NE Atlanta where cyclists where racing red light to red light. From what I was told they were blowing through some of the red lights and at red lights would go up and surround the lead car (as in cyclists all around the front car) at the light so they could be first to race off the line when the light changes. For what purpose? No wonder the general public around here despises cyclists and are hostile. I typically ride solo now days (which brought me to ST because I like a TT type pace out on a back country road) or with a small group of friends that know how to ride with good manners.

Just my opinions of course in this hot topic

You're assuming a driver saw a cyclist almost 700ft away.

He's also assuming my comment was about the OP, which it wasn't, it was meant to be a comment toward the generality of driving in the middle of the lane.

~Matt

Understood. Neither was mine actually. I think its a bad idea to assume a car will see anything at any time, let alone a smaller/narrower object, and at 700ft away.

I'm all for agreeing to disagree, but from a safety standpoint I don't understand how they can be so steadfast based on assumptions of what motorists out of their control will or won't do. It is what it is.