When I logged on this morning and saw that this thread had doubled in size, I was 100% certain that the growth happened because the cyclist in question was participating and that it had devolved into WW3. I'm so utterly disappointed that I had to read the whole thing only to discover that he hasn't made an appearance...yet...

What the fuck is this world coming to?

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Eliot
blog thing - strava thing

This is not directed at Duffy, but be careful to believe 100% of a friend's account of a situation just because he is your friend. I understand that you tend to believe your friend's account, as I tend to believe mine, but yes I can't tell you exactly how this all went down because I wasn't there. And neither were you.

However, with all due respect, I am aware of a number of facts regarding the incident, which I have spelled out. I know the road in question. I know its grade and condition. I know that shoulder. I know its propensity to be littered with debris. I saw his power file and as a result know his speed of 30-43mph descending the hill as a result of slow pedaling and coasting. I know he was lawfully taking the lane, though personally I do not find that dispositive as to whether he was riding reasonably or not (I suspect we agree on that).

If your proposition is that the "testimony" of a Slowtwitch member is inherently more accurate than that of a non-Slowtwitch member, than I have to disagree there. This isn't a trial and applying legal concepts of hearsay is a bit odd.

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Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099

I was also surprised at the epicness of this thread. I didn't think it had this much meat.

I've got no real content to add. I've read every post and have been highly entertained. It took me a while since the post rate seemed to be faster than my reading rage. I'm only posting now just to get in on the action before it turns uncivil (which, surprisingly hasn't happened yet- what's become of ST?) and there will be a tiny lock symbol next to the thread title.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Your comments are a good reminder why I don't participate in any of those "safety" orgs. For such an ardent proponent of advocacy you come across not only with a condescending tone but naively. Trot out all the law recitations and teachings you want, but avoiding putting yourself in harm's way is basic common sense. And NOT giving cars room at any opportunity is flawed logic, regardless of the law. What if that driver is distracted? Or someone with road rage, who flips you off but buzzes the next cyclists he sees to get even? The OP said it himself: had he looked down the cyclist would have been toast--that's a scenario that potentially plays out everyday. Pretty easy to understand how that works...

Slowing down to a speed where the rider can manage what's in front if him is safer than taking a lane where traffic is approaching at a higher rate of speed. It may not be fun or cool but it's idiotic to argue otherwise.

You can spin this how you want. It isn't about slowtwitch or not. It is about behavior I see as a road cyclist myself, disgusting. It is about the defense of this behavior that I find disgusting. It is the consequences that impact me due to this behavior that disgust me. Duffy is here telling the story, your friend is not. I cannot judge his side of the story as he is not here defending it. You are. You have no credibility with me, nor can you possibly after defending behavior my own observation and experience finds disgusting.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

I think an ST subpoena needs to be issued to the subject.

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Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
do that thing.

Sorry, I like "that"

Go to the link within the link

http://problogservice.com/...y-a-writers-dilemma/

Sure, you can take the "that" out, and the message will be the same, but WITH it it just has a little better flow, more body

An extra THUMP in the bass line

Now ... it were written as "problem is: we do not listen" the colon presents both a literary AND a graphic / typesetting Opportunity

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Actually, you're probably dead-on with your estimate.

According to the CDC, ~800 cyclists are killed per year: http://www.cdc.gov/...ionalSafety/Bicycle/

According to the links I posted earlier, 40% of cycling fatalities are caused by rear-end collisions from motorists.

So that's about 320 dead cyclists per year due to rear-endings, or just under 1 per day.

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STAC Zero Trainer - Zero noise, zero tire contact, zero moving parts. Suffer in Silence starting fall 2016

Going by the thumbnail, I thought they were mussels, and said to myself "Duffy? Dude. Wrong mollusk"

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

^^
This. err ... That! Yeah, what he said.

You weren't there. You didn't observe any of the behavior at issue. Yet you feel qualified to pronounce judgment while arguing that my viewpoints on the matter are null and void. Now I wasn't there either, and have made that clear from the outset, but my viewpoint is at least informed by fairly extensive knowledge of the road and shoulder in question. Is yours?

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Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099

When I first started riding motorcycles, I quickly learned that the most prudent attitude to take is to "ride as if you are invisible to other vehicles"...meaning, assume they don't see you (unless you've made eye contact, etc.)...which is what actually makes the old saw "loud pipes save lives" basically true, since I've found that if a vehicle operator hears you, they often start searching around for the source of the sound.

Anyway, I digress...I just wanted to say that I've found that taking the same attitude when I ride my bike to be prudent as well.

Also, not directed at you MJuric, but to the folks advocating "take the lane" in situations such as the PCH example...what say you all about this stretch of CA Hwy 1? https://www.google.com/...QivtIaTP5vo4zQrQ!2e0

Just like in Duffy's example...2 lanes of traffic in both directions. A fairly wide shoulder (which gets a LOT of debris)...not to mention the "braille" strip ~1.5' to the right of the white line. It's legal to ride bikes along this stretch of CA-1/Hwy101. Where would YOU ride? Would you take the right hand lane? Just curious...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I must Confess ...

Forgive me Father for I have Sinned ... I too have used harsh language to a fellow Cyclist while behind the Wheel of a Motor Vehicle

We were in Cape May one day last summer [actually a LOT of days, but I'm only going to talk about this one particular day] and some local was slow-pedaling his beefy cruiser down Beach Avenue. He was wearing a floral shirt, cargo shorts, Teva-like sandals, and a straw hat [NOT a helmet, mind you].

He was making 8 mph or so [less than 2/3 as fast as a Kenyan runs, to put in perspective] down the middle of the street. Yeah, right in front of me, and the parade that was forming behind me. Ok, not the MIDDLE of the street, but far enough into the lane that I couldn't get around. As a cyclist, I could see that he was over that much, so he wouldn't get doored. Still, I laid on my horn and advised that he pick up the pace, and yield somewhat to the vehicles behind

I believe that my exact words were "Hurry the fuck up, or move the fuck over"

He gently glided to his right with just barely enough room for me to go past, without crossing into opposing lane.

When we came together at the light, he asked "You have a problem?"

"Look asshole, I'm a cyclist myself, and can appreciate your position, but I will GLADLY run you the fuck over if you get in my way one more fucking time. And if *I* don't someone else will. And put a fucking helmet on. That luau hat looks stupid as shit"

Granted, if something had gone wrong in our interaction the consequences would not have been as nearly as severe as if the moment between Duffy and ... well, I know who the other guy was, since I follow his blog ... had taken a bad turn [literally]

I throw myself upon the Mercy of the ST Brethern and Sisteren for Forgiveness

God Bless You All

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Slowman did...but that's because he thought we were talking about a different road ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

http://www.vox.com/...ths-happen-in-the-us

10% t-bone (driver pulling out in front?)
4% Sideswipe (drifting into shoulder?)
24% is unknown (don't even know what that is)
40% Rear-end collision




Its pretty damn hard to get rear-ended if you're not in front of any cars. I still think its safer in the shoulder, which is what many of us have been trying to say. Lets just say the 24% included crash from debris, the way to reduce that risk is to ride slower and within your limits.

Its much safer when the control is in your hands, not when relying on other people to follow the rules.

"Most cyclist deaths occur on high-traffic urban roads"

"Unsafe driving seems to lead to way more deaths than unsafe biking"

This last quote can be taken a number of different ways. But the take home for me is that its the cars you have to worry about, because they're out of your control. So no, I wouldn't rely on a driver's awareness on the road. And I certainly won't hold my breath as he is "forced" to see me.

So I've read this thread with utter fascination in terms of the justifications of whether the cyclist was in the "right" or not. People have cited cycling schools and california motor vehicle codes. I think the more apropos question to think about is what does the average motorist think about my actions. Why? Because you have put your bike and thus your fate into the average LA motorist hands when you decided to take the lane on PCH in morning commute traffic. Take a hundred typical LA drivers, and survey them, tell me what they would think about a cyclist taking the lane on PCH during the morning commute. The vast majority would think that you are bat sh*t crazy taking the lane. So tell me given that opinion, do you think most driver's would expect a cyclist to take the lane in this situation? And if they don't expect such a situation, do you think they will react in a predictable manner? Would they get pissed about it? What happens when people get pissed?

I would even venture that the first bad decision was choosing this route at this time of day. You have the right to take that route but there is no doubt in my mind, you've just elevated the risk that something bad is going to happen. You put yourself in harms way.

Fundamentally, it isn't a fruitful discussion to have amongst cyclists. Why? Because we don't make up, the majority of the drivers in the world. You can argue all you want about how "correct" you were, but it ain't going to help you when that car plows into you.

I'm sorry ... butt ever time I hear that term, I have to remember a joke from many years ago

"Jon Corzine was the first NJ Governor to be involved in a car crash.
However it is rumored that former Governor McGreevey was "Rear Ended" many times."

Carry on

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

The fact that you looked at his power file is mind boggling. Further, the fact that you are still here defending his honor is also mind boggling regardless of who is right or wrong, or both. There hasn't been a single relevant point in the past 10 pages, yet you can't leave it alone.

Carry on.

I don't think you have good reading comprehension because at no point did I say I was there or know what happened. There are things here that we all seem to agree on. Like his guy was riding in the lane for an extended period of time. And doing so was a result of this person choosing to take a downhill at high speeds instead of riding on the side slower to safely negotiate road debris. I have observed this unnecessary behavior in my own life and seen consequences of it. There are certain things you do not do unless absolutely necessary. Maneuvering in traffic is one of them. Was he within his rights or the law, sounds like it. But his selfish behavior has very real consequences for the rest of us. I've rode in groups where one jerk thought it would be cool to slow traffic by riding solo in the middle of the lane. Legal yes, but when on pissed off motorist passed at first opportunity and swerved back into the lane after he passed that guy and almost hit the rest of us, any excuse for safety this guy had for riding in the center of the lane was moot. I felt the drivers mirror it was so close. I've even had road mates die because they rolled the dice against a car. That is why behavior like that disgust me.

Had it been a rural or lesser travelled road, this would be a non-issue. But this was a major road with high volume. Think, Duffy is one of us and he got pissed. What about the guy who thinks cyclist belong on the side walk? Instead you need to be asking what the police would think when your friend is hamburger on the road and whoever hit him says I didn't see him or lies and says he swerved in front of me.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Sure...but what would Cesar Milan have done? ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Hey, your post about motorcycles was spot on(not entirely convinced of the loud pipe thing, but ok). I used to ride a scooter and gave it up when I got my kid. To many close calls.

As for you "where would ride here" post, I gotta say that on the vast majority of that stretch of PCH I simply wouldn't ride at all unless I had to. I've seen people drive to Leo Carrillo, pull there bikes off the car and go ride PCH. IMHO, stupid. Why would you want to ride that road on purpose? If you are going to drive to a ride there are so many other places to go that are safer. The amount of recreational riding I see on that road is perplexing to me.

I'll state here very clearly. Everyone has the right to ride on PCH! For me? No thanks.

In the years I've driven that stretch I've witnessed and seen the aftermath of numerous bike/car collisions. I've witnessed two car/car head on collisions (one of which I posted about in the LR). I've seen cars drive into the ocean on three separate occasions. It's a particularly dangerous 27 mile stretch of road.

And that section in the picture? I'd ride on the shoulder. But what do I know? I'm a tri dork cager.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

Thanks. Same here...I sold my last motorcycle a couple months after my son was born after having the thought "This is really stupid...and I've got a little guy at home depending on me!" while I was riding it home from work.

The "loud pipes" thing came clear to me just after I installed an aftermarket header onto my "thumper" Honda Ascot when I was in college. I was riding it on the freeway, and just as I was hitting the blind spot zone of the car in the lane next to me (that I was overtaking), I could see the driver swiveling his head around looking for the source of the loud droning. That's when it all made sense to me :-)


I don't know if you caught it, but that view I linked to is a section of 101 just west of Goleta, near El Capitan. I posted that because it looks awfully similar to that section of PCH you showed us, and yet I think anyone who would actually ride along there would think it was a death wish to even get close to being in the right hand lane of traffic instead of on the shoulder, despite the debris and the rumble strip. I just want to see what the "safety advocates" have to say about that example.

BTW, one last question for you...would you have even posted your first note if the cyclist hadn't responded to you with an F-bomb?

I think what's getting lost in all of this discussion of lane rights, etc. is that no matter what happened at the point you passed him and whether or not his lane positioning was appropriate or safe...hurling F-bombs at anyone usually isn't the best way to get your point across :-/

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Yeah. Kids change you. I approach some of my surfing exploits with family in mind, where I really didn't before (though I just got a tow board)...

Sure, ok.


Ha! No. Was looking at it on my phone. Thought it was a stretch near County Line on PCH. Yeah, that section of the 101 up the Gaviota coast can be dicey. Don't really like it but it does have a big shoulder. Riding in traffic lanes would be suicide (but technically legal!).

Just let them ride in the traffic lane there and we won't ever have to hear what they'd say.


No. My whole point wasn't the legality of what he was doing (he was riding legally). It was precisely the F-bomb that prompted this post. He hurled it me (a cyclist) this time but next time it might at a dumb ass "cager" who will take his frustrations out on him, or worse, another cyclist. The point of my thread is the hope that the cyclist would think twice about telling strangers to fuck off.

As a side note, and this is bragging, I can kick people's asses pretty easily. I don't do it in anger to untrained people, but I can. He's lucky I don't go around beating people up but I know people who are just waiting for opportunities to scrap. No joke.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

PS: I'm pretty stoked on that new bike way by Rincon/LaConchita, from a safety perspective.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb