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Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [Felt_Rider] [ In reply to ]
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Felt_Rider wrote:
but I have to admit that in early morning hours before the sun comes up and there is a sea of red brake and tail lights on cars it is sometimes very difficult to see that one little tiny red blinking light on the commuting cyclists. It just doesn't stand out enough and that is with me being as observant as I can be.


We have an increasing fad among road cyclists in my area of preferring dark/black apparel.

black clothing
black helmet
black shoes
black bikes
under the canopy where there's no direct sunlight
(compared to cars) slow moving

That is the recipe for being easily missed and almost hit, it's especially difficult to be seen by turning vehicles because they have to look left and right, quickly, to look for an opening.
Last edited by: rijndael: May 21, 15 4:21
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Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [Yeeper] [ In reply to ]
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Yeeper wrote:
Bruizer wrote:


Unless it's since been changed, the posted speed limit is 45.

I would rather take the lane at that speed than try to dodge debris on the shoulder.


In the first post of this thread OP states the posted limit was 55mph.

Even if it was 45, I still stand by my comment. Most drivers go 5-10 over the posted limit. Going downhill that gap increases, which is why many cops sit at the bottom of hills with their radar guns.

I also just don't see the need to bomb the hills, its not worth it IMO. People died recently setting their parachute on fire for a stunt and also by wing-suiting. Noone to really blame but themselves for doing something reckless. Taking a hill on a bike at close to 45 and PLANNING on dodging cars or debris doesn't end well that "other" 10% of the time for the bike.

Any way you slice this, a bike loses to a car. Its been said a few times already: just because you can doesn't mean you should. Its just not smart especially on a road with high posted speed and during peak commute times.


I agree with you. As the information exchange between the OP and the rider's friend has grown, I agree that it's not smart to take the lane with a lot of traffic when you have a smooth, wide and clean shoulder to ride on. My initial reaction was to the OP's desire to "educate" the rider by honking (tapping?) his horn at him. Honking your horn is universally accepted as "You're a douchebag for inconveniencing me", not, "I'm concerned about your well-being". It appears it encouraged at least one other car to honk their horn too. The OP's best intentions at the stoplight became totally meaningless after that. I would encourage us to try and open up a friendly dialog with cyclists who are being unsafe, whether we are cycling or driving.
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Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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It's ON! You've made a blog.
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Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
It's ON! You've made a blog.


That was mildly amusing.

The blogger either didn't read the thread or has no interest in accurately characterizing what I said.

He said I "dragged Helen's (cycle shop) through the mud" when in fact I went out of my way, on more than one occasion, to state that I have no problem at all with Helen's.

That's just one example.

Either way, that blog sort of defeats the purpose of trying to get cars and bikes to peacefully coexist.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
Last edited by: Duffy: May 21, 15 7:23
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Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [knighty76] [ In reply to ]
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Those pics are making me homesick (although I assume it's Yorkshire, they look a lot like the roads through the Black Mountains, Gower peninsula and other assorted mountains/valleys around where I grew up).
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Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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There's a bike lane there? Anyone have a link to a Google street view showing this alleged bike lane? I hope we all distinguish bike lanes from shoulders, though even cops have been known to conflate them. But we shouldn't.

If there is no bike lane, but there is an unreliable rubble-filled shoulder, what do you expect the cyclist to do? He can take his chances riding in that shoulder, or ride next to the stripe where every third or fourth car will result in a close and dangerous buzz pass. Or, he can do what he did. He can take the lane causing motorists to have to change lanes and pass him with plenty of safe passing distance. Maybe they'll even have to stop texting pay attention and slow down for a few seconds! Oh the horror! Seriously. He's an asshole for making you change lanes?

You even we're back together at the next light. What is the big rush? And honking? You're THAT guy calling the lawful cyclist an asshole? Wow.
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Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [Ninety5rpm] [ In reply to ]
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Ninety5rpm wrote:
There's a bike lane there? Anyone have a link to a Google street view showing this alleged bike lane? I hope we all distinguish bike lanes from shoulders, though even cops have been known to conflate them. But we shouldn't.

If there is no bike lane, but there is an unreliable rubble-filled shoulder, what do you expect the cyclist to do? He can take his chances riding in that shoulder, or ride next to the stripe where every third or fourth car will result in a close and dangerous buzz pass. Or, he can do what he did. He can take the lane causing motorists to have to change lanes and pass him with plenty of safe passing distance. Maybe they'll even have to stop texting pay attention and slow down for a few seconds! Oh the horror! Seriously. He's an asshole for making you change lanes?

You even we're back together at the next light. What is the big rush? And honking? You're THAT guy calling the lawful cyclist an asshole? Wow.

You might want to read the rest of the thread and get yourself up to speed.

Cliff notes:

Yes, taking the lane is legal. It was also stupid in that place at that time. The cyclists reaction to me made him look like a dick.

I just got back from a run. On my run there was a lady on the sidewalk walking a very large dog. In the past, while on runs, I have been attacked by dogs (both leashed and unleashed). Guided by this experience, I chose to cross to the other side of the street (at a light where I had the green) rather than share the sidewalk with this dog. I HAVE THE LEGAL RIGHT TO RUN PASSED THAT DOG!!!!!! But I chose the option less likely to get me bitten. And I did so without telling the dog walker to fuck off.

Can you understand this concept?

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [knighty76] [ In reply to ]
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knighty76 wrote:
You lucky buggers! As we say over here in West Yorkshire "you don't know you're born!". Christ, I would love a shoulder like that on any of the roads I ride on. Here are some of the roads that I ride all the time. And before you say "I wouldn't ride a road like that", let me tell you, if you wouldn't ride a road like that and you lived over here in the UK, you wouldn't ride at all.

You can imagine how much drivers enjoy sharing the roads with cyclists over here! If I had a shoulder like that one you posted on PCH I would live in it. Lucky sods ;-)










Isnt that Snake Pass from Glossop?
Getting any kind of abuse when riding Langett Res to Holme Moss Snake pass Strines are badges to be worn with pride. ;-)
And he's not kidding about living on the hard shoulder, there are whole communities doing that over here!!

Dont complain about the results you did n't get from the training you did n't do.
Last edited by: DavidUK: May 21, 15 7:32
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Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [Ninety5rpm] [ In reply to ]
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PS: There are links to street view and pictures that i took of the area in question in this thread.

Read the thread.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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There's something many human's do that's a bit horrifying to me, it can perhaps be generalized as entitlement or the height of selfcenteredness.

When we're on our bikes the attitude is something along the lines of... "I'm on bike here, nearly naked, not polluting, you could give me a break in your f'ing car!!!!"

When we're in our cars the attitude is something a kin to..."I'm driving here, on a road, made for cars!! The speed limit is 45 and you're on your bike in my lane doing 35 - you f'ing idiot, here's my horn!!!"

For a long time my belief has been that when a cyclist is in a car they will....wait for stunning concept....relate to the cyclist. I worry this thread has shattered that belief for me.

One last thing, the middle finger, the bird - super trite. Using that instantly outs one as a unimaginative dullard.

Ian
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Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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agree with all.

i've been retraining myself to blow a kiss whenever i get the middle finger urge. blow a kiss, a little wave, done. the motorist knows what he did. he'll get the message, and my moderated response might be a data point added to whatever generates his view of cyclists, or his own rights, or my own safety.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
agree with all.

i've been retraining myself to blow a kiss whenever i get the middle finger urge. blow a kiss, a little wave, done. the motorist knows what he did. he'll get the message, and my moderated response might be a data point added to whatever generates his view of cyclists, or his own rights, or my own safety.

To some this might have the same effect.

Formerly TriBrad02
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Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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After reading the thread and your comments/replies, I don't buy your explanation:

[I didn't come here to vent or to humiliate the guy. I thought there was a chance that I get the message to him that I couldn't get to him on the road this morning. That message is "Hey, as a fellow cyclist, I think what you did back there was stupid..." ]

The tone that I read is one of frustration and yes, a desire to humiliate. That is MY opinion from reading all that you have posted.

Look, I wasn't there obviously--but, as a cyclist, I find your actions completely appalling.

We all drive cars and we ALL have to deal with other drivers as well as cyclists on the road. Regardless of whether the cyclist is hugging the gutter (BAD IDEA) or taking the lane (I am going to have to defend the cyclist given the part of the road he was on, GOOD IDEA), the message that motorists send to cyclists when they honk or behave rudely is always negative and never positive. You aren't going to change that cyclists behavior, you're going to startle / offend that cyclist and do nothing but create a negative opinion in his mind about you. The topic of "do I take the lane or do I hug the gutter" offers polarizing conversation, but just because the cyclist doesn't agree with the side YOU have chosen (hug the gutter) doesn't mean it's okay to "send a message" by engaging in behavior that YOU would find reprehensible if you were found on the receiving end (do you like it when motorists speed around you, honk, yell, etc?).

Regardless of whether you agree on taking the lane (that's really beside the point here), motorists (and ALL of us fit into this category) should be courteous to everyone and everything on the road. WE ALL SHARE THE ROAD.

In your mind, you may have felt "better" about honking and "sending a message" so the cyclist may hopefully consider changing his behavior. My guess it that in reality, the only message you sent is "I'm incapable of being courteous or tolerant, so get out of my way".

I am one of the activists who are trying to educate motorists on the dangers of being a gutter bunny (which is why cyclists SHOULD take the lane to ensure safety when conditions warrant). I don't agree with riding in the gutter (again, polarizing topic), and I just felt compelled to call you out on your motivation--because as I said before, I'm not buying it.

Let's not HONK or try to "send a message" to cyclists while driving in a vehicle. Just go around, politely.

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Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
agree with all.

i've been retraining myself to blow a kiss whenever i get the middle finger urge. blow a kiss, a little wave, done. the motorist knows what he did. he'll get the message, and my moderated response might be a data point added to whatever generates his view of cyclists, or his own rights, or my own safety.

How about just a wave? A kiss might just get you some more unwanted attention from the offending motorist. Your choice, but you might get more than you are asking for. Unless that's what you are going for, not that there's anything wrong with that.

Suffer Well.
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Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I've often tried the friendly wave when a motorist honks at me, or yells at me, or buzzes by needlessly close. I think they usually interpret it as the middle finger. In their rear view mirror they cannot see well enough to distinguish what the gesture was, just that there was a gesture and they assume the worst. Sometimes that little wave has escalated the conflict to make the driver slow down and yell some more. These days I try my hardest just not to react at all, but it can be very hard...

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [camscott] [ In reply to ]
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At this point I really don't care if you "buy my explaination".

Just be aware that although taking the lane is perfectly it is sometimes extremely stupid. Also be aware that flipping off and cussing people out does not help bike/car relations.

You may not want ride in the "gutter" (look at the picture I posted) but riding in the road there at that time is dumb. You just can't escape that reality.

I asked this earlier and I'll ask it again, are you willing to die for your right to take the lane?

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [prattzc] [ In reply to ]
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prattzc wrote:
And where is the animated gif of michael Jackson eating popcorn!!!

I told you this would be a good one!



Better?

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
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Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
agree with all.

i've been retraining myself to blow a kiss whenever i get the middle finger urge. blow a kiss, a little wave, done. the motorist knows what he did. he'll get the message, and my moderated response might be a data point added to whatever generates his view of cyclists, or his own rights, or my own safety.


I prefer the V-sign salute.

The driver thinks I'm flashing them a peace sign, I get the satisfaction of knowing I really just told them to fuck off.



Last edited by: WelshinPhilly: May 21, 15 8:26
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Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [justkeepedaling] [ In reply to ]
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justkeepedaling wrote:
Based of off the pics and info, I would take that shoulder every time, and if the conditions dictate it, go down at reduced speed.

Defensive riding is what saves your behind. You may think riding in the lane at 10-15 mph slower than the cars is defensive riding, but you'd be sorely mistaken. You simply are going to get run the heck over one of these days or sideswiped by someone who just notices you too late.

"Brakes are a means of expressing Fear" - HST

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
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Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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When we're in our cars the attitude is something a kin to..."I'm driving here, on a road, made for cars!! The speed limit is 45 and you're on your bike in my lane doing 35 - you f'ing idiot, here's my horn!!!"//

Really, your just riding along on your bike, and you are doing 35? I guess you were either talking about Bjorn or Keinle, or maybe you were wearing your Euro kit and thinking kilometers. (-;


A very long time ago when i played college water polo, our coach told us that there is nothing worse than getting kicked out of a game for yelling, or flipping the bird to the ref, even if it was a horrible call. So he told us to blow off steam in these situations, just look up at him and give him a number 1 finger. They would be all confused, as they would know you were mad as hell over whatever was the last call, and seeing your hand up giving them the number one, well it just didn't make sense, and play would continue. But he said that for all of us on the team, this gesture would mean fuck you motherfucker, eat my shit, and so on. We would all get a little smile on, steam would be released, and no one kicked out for a stupid reason.


Over the years I have employed the same tactic on the road, just using a really friendly wave with a big smile, with really vile thoughts going through my head..
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Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Just to clarify, you were violating the law, and he was not? Yet none the less you feel he was negligent? You then elected to escalate a mild annoyance to a confrontation and are nonplussed that he was not amenable to your aggression?
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Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [RandMart] [ In reply to ]
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I am at peace...
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Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [camscott] [ In reply to ]
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first, welcome to slowtwitch (i'm the primary moderator here).

second, i'm assuming you're not a regular reader here, in which case i hope you'll stay now that you've found us.

i also assume that you did find us because there's some cross-talk on other social media about this particular discussion. which is fine. god bless twitter/FB. is that how you found us? if so, i'm interested in the nature of the cross talk. is it in the club race community? advocacy community?

or, am i wrong, you've already been here as a lurker, and you just decided to chime in on this?

no wrong answer, i'm just interested in what kind of community conversation there is out there regarding this conversation on this forum.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [corneliused] [ In reply to ]
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corneliused wrote:
Just to clarify, you were violating the law, and he was not? Yet none the less you feel he was negligent? You then elected to escalate a mild annoyance to a confrontation and are nonplussed that he was not amenable to your aggression?

Sigh.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: To the cyclist on Hwy. 1 in Malibu this morning... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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I support Duffy here. Compared to every shoulder and bike lane in the area around me, that shoulder looks like a paradise. Riding in the lane on a high-speed highway when a huge shoulder is available just pisses all the drivers off, risks your life, and makes it worse for all the other cyclists. Sure it is allowed and you're totally in your rights to do it, but it's risky for the cyclist and risky for all the other cyclists in the area.

If you're getting passed by 100 cars/hour and it only takes one idiot on a cellphone to kill you, why risk it when the shoulder is there?

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Just to clarify, you were violating the law, and he was not? Yet none the less you feel he was negligent? You then elected to escalate a mild annoyance to a confrontation and are nonplussed that he was not amenable to your aggression?

You are debating a point Duffy isn't making. Duffy wasn't saying it was illegal or claiming to be more right, he's saying the choice of lane was dumb, given the reality of that high-speed, high-traffic stretch of road. The rider was completely in the right, but being right doesn't matter if he gets hit and killed, especially since we've all read endless articles where the cops don't care about a dead cyclist. Nobody wants a tombstone that says "at least he was in his rights to ride in the lane".

STAC Zero Trainer - Zero noise, zero tire contact, zero moving parts. Suffer in Silence starting fall 2016
Last edited by: AHare: May 21, 15 8:29
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