You obviously weren't making $10m/yr and to be fair there aren't many cyclists making that amount either. According to the affidavits, Ferrari took on other clients for much less than 100k. The fees he charges were commensurate with the results. It may not sound fair but it happens all the time in real life. Does a real estate salesperson earning 3% on the sale of a $10m house work that much harder than someone selling $100k condos? Not really.

I go back to my original example, many think it's unfair that a person could make $1m/yr for carrying someone's golf clubs around a course. That's life!

You spent the morning reading the thread but not the actual report.

There are positive tests (cortisone and the TdS positives), as well as syringes and medical waste found.

No numbers? Look again. Blood passport data from 2009 and 2010 are analyzed on page 140.

You also don't know what guilt by association means. Guilt by association is charging Taylor Phinney and Tejay van Garderen of doping simply because they rode with Hincapie and under Jim Ochowiczh. Here we have riders swearing under oath that they saw him dope, or that they were asked to take care of EPO or blood bags by keeping them cool, or that they obtained EPO from Lance.

Some shoddy scientist you are

so many fallacies in a single sentence, but let's break it down.
Did you use it to enhance recovery or for other purposes?
Were you tested, and if so, did you provide a legitimate TUE (amateurs are allowed to have back-dated TUEs, unlike professionals)
Many supplements aren't banned


all that said, you know the answer to your own rhetorical question

ha! we all know that mere bullets won't kill Apu Nahasapeemapetilon. he's been shot so many times that the bullets bounce off the fragments of earlier shootings.

Apu: Pardon me, but I would like to see this money spent on more police officers. I have been shot eight times this year, and as a result, I almost missed work.

Apu: Ah. The searing kiss of hot lead; how I missed you. I mean, I think I'm dying.

So...admittedly it's not "one athlete", but how do you feel about college (not pro) football coaches that are making 4 million a year (Urban Meyer, Ohio State) or that there are several college coaches that received RAISES of over 1 million? (And that doesn't include the assistant coaches/trainers/etc salaries)

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

The caddy isn't a great comparison. But it has been reported Hank Haney (Tiger's ex-coach) was paid $50K per year and Tiger is notoriously cheap.

Dealers and smugglers always get longer sentences than users. You squeeze a user to get the goods on the dealer by offering them a lighter sentence. Nothing new here.

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"If you didn't swallow water in your last open water race, you weren't racing"

Well for one, he's not American. But I don't disagree.

I don't know why we are chasing this bad analogy into the ground, but Haney wasn't exclusive to TW.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

statute of limitations would be my question here.

apples and oranges, you can't compare. Show my a cycling coach that charges rates like Dr. Ferrari.

Kerry Classen

Sure you would, as the transfer of cash proves nothing, therefore there is no risk in paying your doctor bill via swiss bank account.

I haven't looked at the entire report, but legally speaking I see no smoking gun here that is the be all end all definitive irrefutable proof that Lance doped.

Again, legally speaking.

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"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

Lets stop the hypocrisy: all this Armstrong witch hunt for years is not "Anti-Doping, but Anti-Armstrong". Only. Thus, little objectivity and lots of partiality. What is at stake is its legacy in the sport of cycling. Thus, the same standards of "scrutiny" and/or "prosecution" should be applied to all TdF winners. Then, Armstrong would be on equal footing and the "Trial" would be fair. UCI strips him of his 7 TdF? OK, but then also all the TdF of the past winners who tested positive before or after their win ( Merckx, Fignon, Pantani, Ullrich, Pereiro, Contador) or who admitted doping ( Coppi, Anquetil, Thévenet, Rijs). If not, NO.

I didn't say he was, if he was I am sure he would be paid more. I am just saying that there are premiums that top athletes will pay for coaching. $100K from Lance to an exclusive coach or $50K from Tiger to a non-exclusive coach doesn't in and of itself raise much suspicion from me.

Federal - 5 years, except in a few circumstances, then it can go up to 7 or 10 years depending. Unless it was related to a DoJ contract while at war, in which case it doesn't start counting until the war is declared over.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

Another thing everyone skips over is that he failed the bio-passport in '09. Part of the decision includes testimony from a doctor (that we've previously heard from Ashenden and others) that his blood values around the time of the Giro were manipulated. A failed biopassport is a failed drug test. You are banned for 2 years if you fail.

I don't know why you don't just read the testimony to defend your position on Ferrari. Show me another place where a bag of nuts costs $14. That doesn't mean the ones in the minbar at the Ritz are laced with EPO.

I have read the entire report carefully and about 30% of the supporting documents, and I wish I had cases this strong when I was a trial attorney. To some the only irrefutable proof that exists would be if Lance confesses (actually under US law that in itself is insufficient for a criminal conviction) or if they were physically present when he doped and had absolute proof (and what would that be?) that what was in the syringe was a banned substance.

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http://www.bobswims.com/

"If you didn't swallow water in your last open water race, you weren't racing"

Golf coaches aren't a great comparison either as they gain tremendous value just by being a top player's coach. There's no shortage of rich kids with daddies willing to pay $500/hr for Tiger Wood's golf coach. In cycling, not so much.

From NYTimes article (http://onpar.blogs.nytimes.com/...able-but-expendable/)

"In fact, creating a brand that raises the coach’s profile and brings average students to the lesson tee — for as much as $500 an hour — is by far the greatest financial benefit of a relationship with a top pro player."

When and for how long was Dr. Ferrari, Lances exclusive coach? This question is really for anybody. Dr. Ferrari coached a lot of athletes over the years Lance was involved with home. I am not sure if there was ever a year that he only coached Lance.

Kerry Classen

better question, WTF are we to do with our SRAM components (and by extension, quarq powermeters)? Isn't Lance an early investor of SRAM?

i won't mind switching to Shitmano or Campy (though it'd be expensive and i won't have a 11-28 cassette), but the quarq PM, well, someone have to pry that thing from my dead, cold hands...

Reading through some of the documents seems like many of these riders got their own EPO even before LA was in the picture. Not sure if you are equating LA as being a dealer vs. Hincapie, CVV, DZ, LL being just users?




Didn't stop USADA from going back into 1990s to strip LA.

the anti-doping rule states that if you try to cover up your tracks, then there's no statute of limitations

What does his guilt or innocence have to do with you enjoying your competition against him? He's famous and a top world class athlete. You don't have to enjoy that moment less because he has been guilty of doping. If Barry Bonds hit a home run off of me, or I struck him out, my moment is no less because he doped. It would still be pretty cool.

Beyond the LA debacle, I'm contantly saddened that we now live in an NCIS/CSI, television reality world where only hi-tech space age forensic proof will ever convict anyone of anything. A jury is told by a judge at the start of a trial very clearly that they are the judges of fact. Juries are to assess among other things the credibility of witnessess and their testimony. To read the accounts of 26 witness, 15 riders, as well as the emails, financial transactions, etc., and then still cling to the need for more high tech proof is crazy in my opinion. But beyone LA its what is seen in countless courtrooms of criminal trials and rapes and such all the time now. Its a shame.

Anyone who provided drugs, provided an opportunity or support for their use goes beyond being just a user themselves. The more difficult question is the involvement of many people working in concert to collectively cover up their use. This moves it into the area of a conspiracy, and in the use of illegal drugs, a criminal conspiracy.

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http://www.bobswims.com/

"If you didn't swallow water in your last open water race, you weren't racing"

Like

i think that was the episode in which James Woods was a guest star?