damon.lebeouf, Let me workout both bikes first...

The QR PRsix2 in size 52 would have the 110mm stem with the bar set up with the middle (sandwich) clamp and 15mm of pedestal spacer. The armrest bracket would be forward and the armrest would be mounted in the middle hole. You'd have 30mm more in reach on this bike if ever you needed it (and 90mm less). You could also go down 25mm lower if needed (and up 70mm).

The QR PRsix2 in size 54 would have the 90mm stem with the bar set up with the lowest bar clap position and 5mm of pedestal spacer. The armrest bracket would be rearward and the armrest would be mounted in the rearward hole. As you've already noted you could only go 5mm lower and you've have lots of cockpit, both fore and aft with which to play.

You've already given this some good thought. I like the set up on both bikes. The one thing that I can add with most certainty is this.... as triathletes age pretty much all of them don't go lower in arm pad elevation, they go up. I assume you're getting older just like the rest of us so don't fret over the nearly slammed 54, my guess is that you won't be going lower on your already long and low position.

Ian

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Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

thanks a lot for confirming what i was thinking ian! the help is much appreciated. :)

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80/20 Endurance Ambassador

Just a quick and big thanks to Ian! I don't think these guys here that take the time and help us all out a great deal get much post purchase feedback or get the opportunity to see the results. Here are the results from his advice and Consult........

Referance I'm 5'10.5" and this is a 54cm QR PR6

Pad Stack 659
Pad reach 446
Saddle Height 767

Thanks Ian!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4cE8sZ5cFo

Ian, thanks a ton (in advance) for your help. Yup, both new bikes are leveled on Wahoo KICKR SNAP trainers in preparation for fit adjustments (can't do it on a work stand!).

My bike:
New bike, size: 52cm
Old bike seat height: 730mm

My wife's bike:
New bike, size: 48cm
Old bike seat height: 650mm

Seat height measured from the center of bottom bracket to top of saddle, following the seat post. I'm basing my measurement positions off the "Bike Fit Manager" diagram on my ST profile page (filling in values there as we go, too).

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- John
"Have courage, and be kind."

John,

First, a couple of "big picture" elements:

1. I'd like comfort to be our primary driver. Built into that will be power because it'll be easier or more comfortable to make power in a certain place so those kinda go together. I'd like aero to just hang back for a while and not inform our choices in your position.
2. If you came into my studio and we spent a good chunk of time on your fit it might not be finished when you leave. You'd ride, you'd rider longer, and you might find that at some point in time (90min, 2hrs, 3hrs) something got uncomfortable and needed changing. So if that's true in the best case scenario (in the fit studio) than we must expect a progression of the fit process using an app or doing this via text in a forum.
3. I'd like to start with the "core four" : 1) seat height, 2) setback, 3) cockpit distance, and 4) arm pad elevation. Seat height and setback have to be done first and as the setback moves the seat height will be slightly effected.

Okay so, you're using your road bike seat height. Let's pretend that your road bike seat height is perfect for your road position. That won't be the same as your tri bike seat height and here's why.... on the road bike your hips are behind the bottom bracket to some degree. In a good tri position your hips will be forward more, and probably only slightly behind the bottom bracket. A HUGE part of the "setback discussion" relates to the saddle. Your road bike prolly has a road bike saddle on it and you sit very much ON that saddle (towards the middle of it). Your new QR came with some model of Adamo saddle and that saddle is designed to be ridden on the front of it, on the nose of it, perhaps even pitched off the front of it. So - your setback in the tri position will be less than the setback on your road position and because of that your seat height will be slightly higher on your tri bike.

I'm just gonna make some guesses here and then we should probably try and go to video.

Set the tri bike seat height to 755mm (measuring the same way you are on your road bike)
Set the tri bike setback to 30mm behind the bottom bracket (BB). Here's how you do that - dangle a plumb bob off one of the noses of the saddle. If you don't have a plumb bob you can make one with 90cm of string and a small weight (salt shaker for example). Dangle it so it rests near the BB and measure the gap between the center of the BB and string. Set the nose of the saddle 30mm behind the BB. Remember, this all done with bike level and secure on the trainer.

Before we proceed, I realize I gotta ask a question.... how long and the cranks on your road bike and how long are the cranks on the new QR tri bike?

Ian

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Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Yes, the new QRs both came with an ISM PN 2.1 saddle.

I did 30 minutes on the trainer today with the saddle at 735mm (see below) and the center position in the seat post and on the rails; it was quite comfortable as it was, actually. :)

I tried making the changes you recommended, however, I could barely touch the pedals at 755mm for the saddle, so I dropped it down to ~735. I set the 30mm setback, but it feels real far back (the bracket is as far back as it’ll go on the seat post, and the saddle is almost at the end of it’s rails). I’ve attached a photo of the seat position.


The cranks on my road bike were 170mm, and the QR has 165mm cranks. Both my wife’s road bike and her QR have 165mm cranks.

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- John
"Have courage, and be kind."

Hi Ian,

I am interested in QR PR6 or PR5 or Canyon Speedmax 8 It will be my first tri bike so here are my body measurements followed by road bike

Height-180cm
Inseam-86 cm

Saddle- 74.3cm
Nose of ISM saddle to bars- 57.2
Saddle setback-12 cm
Current Road bike cranks are 172.5

Canyon 175 -----these big cranks worry me, for fit and gearing - I like to spin
QR 170
Any thoughts on one or the other in terms of fit?
Thanks so much
Donny

Hi Ian,

I am interested in QR PR6 or PR5 or Canyon Speedmax 8 It will be my first tri bike so here are my body measurements followed by road bike

Height-180cm
Inseam-86 cm

Saddle- 74.3cm
Nose of ISM saddle to bars- 57.2
Saddle setback-12 cm
Current Road bike cranks are 172.5

Canyon 175 -----these big cranks worry me, for fit and gearing - I like to spin
QR 170
Any thoughts on one or the other in terms of fit?

That being said after reading through the posts here it seems like a good plan to go see a fitter before buying. Do you know of any good fitters in the Boston MA area? Maybe mid-May we will have the go ahead to interact with the world again.
Thanks so much
Donny

 

Donny,
Certainly a pre-fit from a bike fitter who is educated, experienced in pre-fitting tri bikes, and has a dynamic fit bike is the absolute best you can do before you buy. I don't have a fitter at this time that I can recommend in Boston.
I'm guessing your Pad Y is right around 630 and your Pad X is right around 486. Based on that...

QR PRsix (or the new PRsix2) would be a size 52 with their 110 stem, the base bar held in the "mid clamp" position, 20mm of spacer, the bracket oriented rearward, and arm rest hole mid-rear you'd be be at 630/485. You'd have room to move in both the Pad Y (10mm down or 45mm up) and in Pad X (40mm longer and 80mm shorter).

QR PRfive again size 52 with a 110 stem in the -17deg position, 10mm of stem spacer + 5mm of aerobar pedestal, and arm rest off set at -25mm.

DO NOT FREAK OUT over the size 52. QR sizing is simultaneously brilliant and shocking - lemme explain: the "size 52" has a frame stack of 52cm. It would be so great if every bike maker did this. It's also shocking for a guy your height to be told, "hey a size 52 is right for you" based on our old world concept of that bike size.

Get back to me with questions.

Ian

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Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Donny,

With regards to the 54 PRsix - still with their 110 stem but the base bar held in the "low clamp" position with just 10mm of spacer the bracket oriented rearward and arm rest in middle hole.

This bike works. I like the 52 better though because here, with the 54, you can only go down 10mm more before you reach the limit of the low Pad Y. If I'm too far off with my Pad Y of 630 guess then you're not riding in your preferred/optimal position.

Call them. Ask about the outlet bikes - it's very likely you can give them the specs I've given you here and they'll put the bike as you want it. When it arrives all you gotta do is rotate the bars up and you're good to go.

Ian

PS. make sure you get 165 cranks on it.

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Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Donny et al.

I wanna argue that this article is the best article that's ever been written on Slowtwitch - and there's been some damn good pieces written here.

https://www.slowtwitch.com/...an_s_Build_7657.html

Ian

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Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

I've been casually looking at bikes and am looking for something that can replace my 650C bikes.

Can you actually get the pad stack down to 505 like it says here?

https://cdn.shopify.com/...?3311666817806745570

And my pad Y is 394. It looks like 75mm stem?

Edit: on the 48

Ian, I was really hoping you could answer this, If not can anyone else?

Thanks

Hi Ian,

Based some of the suggestions you’ve provided based on other’s numbers, I think I am either a 48 or 50 in the PRSix2, but most likely a 48 to give me more flexibility in the stack.

Here are my numbers:

Height: 172.7
Weight: 185 pounds
Inseam: 77cm
Torso: 65.4cm
Arm: 63.1cm

TT Fit 1 - Bike 1 (Saddle Sam Marco/Bar HED/Stem 90x-10)
Frame Stack: 516mm
Frame Reach: 390mm
Handlebar Stack (BB to center of bar): 568mm
Handlebar Reach (BB to center of bar): 465mm
Saddle Height: 681mm
Saddle Setback: 29mm
Arm Pad Reach (tip saddle to back of arm pad): 384
Arm Pad Drop: -68mm

TT Fit 2 - Bike 2 (Saddle Cobb Gen2/Bar HED/Stem 100x-17)
Frame Stack: 519mm
Frame Reach: 384mm
Handlebar Stack (BB to center of bar): 558mm
Handlebar Reach (BB to center of bar): 465mm
Saddle Height: 696mm
Saddle Setback: -15mm
Arm Pad Stack BB: 603
Arm Pad Reach BB: 441mm

Road Bike - Specialized Tarmac 54cm
Saddle Height: 686mm
Saddle Fore/Aft: -48mm
Reach: 674mm
Drop: -44mm
Knee Angle: 30 deg
Crank Length: 172.5
Stem: 75mm -6 deg
Handlebar Width: 42cm
Saddle: Specialized Romin Evo 143mm

I hope the numbers jive since they were done by different fitters on different bike setups.

I was going with a frameset and plan to use the same cockpit setup as Slowman’s.
The saddle swapped from the Cobb Gen2 to the ISM PN 3.0

Your review and suggestion would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Vince

Nobody appears to be monitoring this thread anymore.

I got no response on the post I made in early May. I was so underwhelmed I bought a different bike.

Thanks! I’ve started to look at the Omni.

Jaretj, Thanks again. I'm with you now.

Ian

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Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

antbear_xc,

Big hiccup on my end equates to nothing more than me dropping the ball. I've solved and I'm here for you if you still need assistance. LMK, Ian

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Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Looking to “downgrade” from a full blown integrated front end and have landed on either a PRSix2 or a PRFive.

My current fit coordinates are:

Stack: 650
Reach: 495 (to center-ish of the pad. These are Speed Concept pads which have an angled shape. Back of the pad in the left to right middle is around 475).

I’ve been wanting to go a little lower and a little further out.

I’m pretty sure a 54 on the PRSix would be just about perfect to hit my current fit, but also give room to go a little longer and lower. I think if I’m reading the QR fit charts correctly that the 56 wouldn’t let me get much lower than I am now.

Thanks!

blueapplepaste,
I love language and I welcome any and all changes that come.... that said, we gotta protect certain terms: Stack and Reach are to the top of a head tube on a bike frame, I know - because you are so clear in your description (and thank you for that) that you mean Pad Y of 650 and Pad X of 495. You also wanna go lower and longer in cockpit so let's call it Pad Y of 645 and Pad X of 500

PRfive: size 54 with a 110 stem in the -17deg position slammed (no spacers under stem) and 5mm of pad riser. The pad should be positioned 2 holes forward of center. There is room to move... you can go up to 680 or down to 637 in Pad Y and you can go longer or shorter (454-521) all with that same 110 stem.

PRsix2: (this is a "downgrade"? from what??) size 52 with a 110 stem. Stem/bar clamp in the "high" position (meaning the two clam shells are under the bar within the clam) and 25mm of arm pad pedestal. Pad bracket in rearward position and pad mounted in rear hole. You've got room to move (down to 620 and up to 695) and in and out (440-525). This can be done in the size 54 too but less room to move lower in pads if you wanted to.

I'm here for more questions if/when you have 'em.

Ian

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Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Awesome!! And yes - I meant x/y coordinates!

I guess not really a downgrade per se. I’m currently on a Trek SC, but want something easier to make adjustments on the front end of to quickly tweak fit, etc.

Thanks again! You gave awesome advice for my wife when we were purchasing a Canyon for her (fit perfectly once all set up), so no doubt this will be just as helpful.

blueapplepaste,
Yeah, I hear ya on the "ease of use" issue. As we continue along the path of superbikedom we get into situations (especially with brake lines) where it's supremely laborious to do simple stuff: drop 5mm in front end elevation or even pack the bike for travel.

Ian

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Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Hi Ian, when I look at the geo charts for the PR5 and PR6 (both in disc format), the stack and reach appears to be the same. Out of interest, why do you recommend a different size in each? Just because of the type of stem the six comes with?
Thx!

SBRcanuck,
Just to be totally clear - and this relates to that previous post and reply - the PRsix and PRsix2 are the same bike in terms of fit and the coordinates that can be achieved. The difference is that the PRsix2 has the integrated hydration system. So your query is specific to the the PRsix (superbike, OEM stem) and the PRfour/five (mortal bike) which have different Pad Y/X coordinates.

The Pad Y/X parameters are close but not the same; in short, the PRsix is a lower and longer bike. As an example the 54cm PRfive the lowest it'll go is 636 while the PRsix in that size will get down to 620. The longest the 54cm PRfive will go is 512 but the PRsix in that size will get out to 540.

In terms of my prescribing... I'm not a huge fan of any bike with a +17 stem. If it has to happen okay but I'd rather have the -17 set up with all the lift possible (the max on the PRfour & fives is 30mm under the stem and 15mm under the arm pad). So that right there narrows my reference on the mortal bikes to a degree. I also like to take into consideration "room to move". The more info the better for me in terms of prescribing a size and it's possible (likely?) that someone will write in saying, "my overall height is XX, my inseam is XX, my seat height is XX on my road bike, I've got a long torso, I've been riding at Pad This and Pad That, but I'd like to change in this direction in the future...etc....etc". I'll take all that into consideration and prescribe a bike based off of the Pad Y/X that I think they'll ride. My concern is that they'll receive the bike, put it into the spot I recommended, and after 30 min of the first ride they know they want to move the pads a bit. I want to make sure I offer a bike that is NOT painted into a corner and can't be adjusted a little bit in all directions.

Ian

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Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

OK thanks, I was just going by the charts, but I think I see what you are saying, difference in adjustable I guess for X/Y..

So hypothetically, if I were going to do a PRfive disc, and plan to put a tririg Alpha One bar/stem on it, what would you recommend for:

Pad X = 48-49cm (to center of pad)
Pad Y = 64cm
Saddle height from center of BB to top of saddle = 72.7cm. I think I have stubby legs compared to my torso....I always seem to feel between sizes of bikes when looking at my low saddle height but higher bar setup. I use very little saddle to pad drop, even after a couple fittings, maybe 6cm.

So I don't know if I'd be a 52 or a 54 in the PRfive.