Hey, measurements from my recent bike fit below for you, interested in which size I would need; I'm also based in the UK so can only buy the frameset from what I can find. Would you recommend buying the same PD handlebars to pair with the frame?

Pad stack 680
Pad reach 455
Saddle Height 840
Saddle Setback 70
Saddle to Pad Drop 145
Saddle to Pad Reach 550


Cheers

---

@the.lazy.triathlete

https://www.strava.com/athletes/18691068

TLT,
Based on your Pad Stack of 680 and Pad Reach 455...

If you go after the QR PRSix (and you should, that bike is so sweet!) the best fit for you is the 54cm bike with the 110mm stem, bracket set rearward, and armrest bolted in front hole. This will give you the Pad X to rear of pad of 455. To get the Pad Y of 680 place the stem bar clamp in the middle, and add 50mm of arm pad pedestal. You can also get this position almost exactly on the size 56 too - if you end up going that way, get back to me here and I'll work out the details (you can get it done on the 52 as well but requires 70mm of arm pad pedestal and while it works perfectly I don't consider it optimal).

The Profile-Design bar that come spec'd on the PRSix is the Aeria Ultimate and I simply cannot speak highly enough about that bar. I like how the junction box of Di2 can be hidden inside the stem, how all the wires are routed internally, and how stable and sound that bar feels.

If you were considering the PR5, PR4 or PR3 get back to me as that bike is a different spec. Also, are you going rim brake or disc?

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

I'm just going to add that it's really helpful to know whether pad x is to rear or centre.
And - given that QR generally come with PD bars (which all tilt) the angle of your pads/extensions is quite important as it can change the xy markedly.

Thanks for taking the time to respond, sorry I didn’t realise the PR6-4 had different geometries. I’m looking at both the 6 and 5 (which I would put di2 on) and it would be the disc brake version.

I’m basically weighing up a couple of options with this being my disc brake option and most likely the Ribble Ultra Tri as a rim brake option. The weather is grim most of the year around over here and I’m a heavier rider, so having disc braking is appealing to me.

Cyclenutznz - I asked my fitter and the coords are to the centre of the pad. I don’t have the tilt angle on my report, but using a picture they are set angled up around 20 degrees.

I imagine these numbers are a higher/shorter position than most around here so just for context; I’m 6ft 2, with relatively long legs and long forearms, and too much weight around the midsection! It was my first Tri Bike Fit and I don’t think it would take me too long to get into a longer/lower position as I adapt to it. So a frame that could accommodate that position growth would be ideal.

I've taken 40mm from pad x to get the measurement to the rear.

This is what we get if we use the standard way of calculating (not accounting for tilt) with a PD Aeria Ultimate bar


But you'll see that a lot more stack is required on the bars once we account for how much they move when tilted


The max tilt of the AU is 15 Deg - not many integrated bars go to 20.
The impact of tilt is magnified in your case because you need a big frame for the Pad Y and a lot of offset in order to hit X. The higher the pad offset the great the impact of tilting.

Actually, we can take this a step further.


If you have any thought of using the HSF Aeria bottle - it's much easier to fit on the 100mm stem. But you can see that the required increase in pad offset further increases the stack required.

With that brief delve into aerobar trigonometry done, which of these is the best size for you?

I'd go with the 56 (which is the same as a Cervelo 58 for context) - it has room to go up if needed, but more importantly there is plenty of room to stretch out and go lower over time, without compromising handling. Your position at this point is very conservative - you wouldn't have any issue adapting over time with the above setup.

Well that’s awesome! Thanks for showing how the tilt effects things and for going the extra mile on the HSF Aeria bottle, which I will be going with, really helpful for me! Cheers


Edit - sorry to be an utter PITA, but if I also consider the PRfive rim brake option also, do you know if the HSF Aeria bottle fits the bike or if the front brake gets in the way? I’d be looking to change the front brake to a TriRig omega x, if that changes it further.

---

@the.lazy.triathlete

https://www.strava.com/athletes/18691068

Hi Ian

Height 186cm
Inseam 87cm
Saddle height 779mm

Looking for best bang for buck option

Thanks

No problem to do that, especially if you use Omega X. You might find this post helpful https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=6532151#p6532151
I haven't had a chance to test, but it's quite likely that a PR5 with AU and HSF Aeria is the fastest QR option. The PR6 can't take the bottle.

That's bloody brilliant, again thank you very much!

---

@the.lazy.triathlete

https://www.strava.com/athletes/18691068

Greetings and thank you in advance. I currently ride a 2012 Cervelo P2, and am SERIOUSLY considering getting the QR PR4 with Reynolds race wheels. Before pulling the trigger, I'd like to know if my fit specs (Retul) could be matched or improved on the PR4.

I'm 5'10" and 175 lbs (165 race weight). Experience-wise, I have three 70.3s and one full IM (Santa Rosa) under my belt. Fully honest, my IMSR bike time was embarrassingly slow, which I attribute to my fitness, poor previous bike fit, the climbs and the head/cross winds.

The following are my specs from the Retul fit performed recently in Sacramento:

Arm Pad Stack: 625
Arm Pad Reach: 406 (tip of saddle to back of pad)
Arm Pad Drop: -92
Arm Pad Reach BB: 423 (BB horiz. to back of pad)
Saddle Height: 726
Saddle Setback: 17
Grip Reach: 674 (tip of saddle to front end of grip)
Arm Pad to Grip Reach: 268
Grip Width: 420
Arm Pad Width: 261
Handlebar Stack: 571

I'm not sure how I feel about my fit right now. I'm much more comfortable than before it was done, however I still have significant fatigue and stiffness in neck and shoulders while in aero bars.

I'm now 12 weeks from Ironman Arizona, so even if I do buy the PR4, I think it wise to ride the Cervelo P2 for the race.

Your thoughts on the info provided and my question?

---

"I drank what?!?!" - Socrates
Poor Swimmer. Weak Cyclist. Slow Runner.
TriDot Ambassador / Sacramento Triathlon Club

weakandpuny,
Let me start with just my fitter's hat on....Pad Y of 625 - I love it, I know that number and the QR PR4 can get there. "Pad Reach" Let's not allow ourselves to get confused. Your Pad X is 423 and that's the nubmer we need to prescribe a bike.

52cm QR PR4 with the stem configured in the -17 degree position, and 10mm of arm rest riser would get you to 626. Then, if the arm cups are bolted three holes forward of all-the-way-back you get 421 - and plenty of range to move fore-aft of that.

I know what you might be thinking...."I'm 5'10" what you doing putting me on a 52cm bike? Would that be for somebody 5'4"?" The answer is no. Don't be deceived by the sizing - you'd also fit on a 50, but not on a 54cm.

No I'm gonna slice that fitter's hat and sew it to half of my coach's hat.... You MUST find comfort in aero for Arizona. Your fastest bike split there will come from lots of time in the aerobars and very little time up on the bullhorns stretching and recovering. There are three places I'd check: 1) 92mm of drop is ~13% of seat height. If you came up 5mm first and then maybe 10mm I bet you'd find relief. 2) 261 pad width is fine if you have narrow shoulders or are super flexible, take 'em a bit wider and try that. Tweak #1 first, if you need more comfort try slightly wider pad. Lastly, consider tilting your aerobars up a hair - this will drop the arm pad so consider lifting the front end it 5mm first and then rotate them a bit.

Lastly, your coordinates are your coordinates. It doesn't matter if you're on a Cervelo, QR, or bamboo tri bike - when you're in the right spot you can ride for days in complete joy. This means you could buy the QR 3 days before Arizona and as long as it set to the right spot it'll be perfect. That said, the Cervelo isn't in the right spot 'cause you get pain. Order the bike, tinker with the position and find your happy place.

Get back to me with questions, Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Couple of questions:
- Which saddle are you on?
- Are your elbows on the armrests? Aerobar length is very short

Backing up Ian - you need to get a good position sorted as the priority for IM, getting a new bike won't fix your discomfort and may be frustrating as a result (instead of exciting as it should be).

I'm the same size roughly (5'10" 155) and ride a 56 Cervelo P3 circa 2011 at home. I rented a 52 Quintana Roo for age group nationals. The 52 QR fit me perfectly. What a nice bike. It was so hard to turn it back in after the race! But we will always have Cleveland.

Jon, So glad you had a good experience on that bike. They are so fine!!!

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

My saddles is an ISM Adamo Attack (which I think is called the PN2 or something now). My forearms are on the pads, with the elbow just at the back of the pad. What I thought was a good fit in the studio, for a few minutes at a time in the aero position, turns out to be quite the strain on my neck on the road. The only thing remotely comfortable is to look just a few feet in front of my tire, and look forward frequently to check for hazards, then look back down again.

---

"I drank what?!?!" - Socrates
Poor Swimmer. Weak Cyclist. Slow Runner.
TriDot Ambassador / Sacramento Triathlon Club

Thank you Ian. I plan to take your advice and move my Cervelo’s pads up 5-10mm and set them wider. I have fairly broad shoulders and a wide back (I used to lift a lot of weight...I got over it), and have always felt the aero bars were just way to narrow for my build. If I find my neck and shoulder pain is resolved, I’ Just consider these to be my new fit specs on the Quintana Roo PRFour I JUST ORDERED! BOOYA! Pulled the trigger. I’m gonna be the coolest looking BOP’er at IMAZ. LOL. Thanks for your advice. I’ll update you later on the results.

---

"I drank what?!?!" - Socrates
Poor Swimmer. Weak Cyclist. Slow Runner.
TriDot Ambassador / Sacramento Triathlon Club

An additional question, Ian. So the 10mm arm rest riser would get me to where my current fit is, but you're recommending 5-10mm higher, for a total of 631-636? I wanna make sure I understand and have it correct in my (weakandpuny) brain before I go monkeying around with things.

Thanks again.

---

"I drank what?!?!" - Socrates
Poor Swimmer. Weak Cyclist. Slow Runner.
TriDot Ambassador / Sacramento Triathlon Club

weakandpuny,

Congratulations!!!

When your new bike arrives you'll be pleasantly surprised at home much of the assembly is already done. Get the seat height and setback of that saddle where you like it (based on fit and old bike). Then set up the front end the same but - lift the bars 10mm (636 or a hair more) with spacers and widen the arm pads to give yourself some relief. Remember it's FAR more aero to be in on comfy aerobars for extended periods of time than super uncomfortable aerobars for a few minutes then the bull horns to stretch and recover.

Don't hesitate to post pics/vids, I'll gladly weigh in.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

I'll happily post pics when I can. Hell, I was even considering raising 20-40mm just to relieve the neck pain / discomfort.

Thanks,
Craig

---

"I drank what?!?!" - Socrates
Poor Swimmer. Weak Cyclist. Slow Runner.
TriDot Ambassador / Sacramento Triathlon Club

An additional question, Ian. What are the negative repercussions should I choose to raise my pads higher than what you recommend, i.e. 30, 40, or 50mm? I understand it would make me slightly less aero, but I appreciate the importance of maximizing my time in the aero position, especially for IMAZ. I just don't want to go too high and have it affect my hips, knees, or something else. I'm still a rookie with regards to fit stuff.

Thanks

---

"I drank what?!?!" - Socrates
Poor Swimmer. Weak Cyclist. Slow Runner.
TriDot Ambassador / Sacramento Triathlon Club

Hi Ian, Thanks for doing this. I currently ride a 2014 Speed Concept, and am looking at getting the QR PR4 with Reynolds race wheels.

I'm 5'10" and 160 lbs.

The following are my specs from the Retul fit performed about a 2 years ago.

Arm Pad Stack: 693
Arm Pad Reach: 382
Arm Pad Drop: -67
Arm Pad Reach BB: 693
Saddle Height: 772
Saddle Setback: -17
Grip Reach: 748
Grip Drop: -37
Arm Pad to Grip Reach: 366
Grip Width: 105
Arm Pad Width: 214
Handlebar Stack: 638

I like my current fit. I have the flexibility to get lower (at least I use too) but I can't stay there due to lower back issues. So my Retul settings really feel good.

Pad Stack 640
Pad Reach 440 to back of pad
Saddle Height 819


Thanks in advance.

Hi Ian,

Thank you very much for offering assistance! I had my fit in June and purchased a PR4 disc (size 54) based on a recommendation from the fitter. I had been riding a 2015 PR6 (also size 54) for a few years and love it, but was interested in upgrading to disc brakes. I also asked the bike shop to install Di2 on the PR4 to complete the upgrade. While doing some research on Slowtwitch, I became very interested in the AU stem and HSF aeria hydration. I consulted with the bike shop to ensure it would work with my fit, and he thought it would. The bike shop owner was awesome throughout the build process. After getting the bike and riding the PR4 for a few weeks, I did some measurements yesterday and discovered my stack, reach, and drop are each 5cm off. I didn't notice because this is an entirely new fit position for me and more aggressive than my previous position on the PR6. While I love the AU stem, bar, and hydration, I'm not sure my fit can be accomplished with them since I don't think adjustments can make it go any lower than it currently is. Based on my fit coordinates below, my three primary questions are:

1) Can I achieve my fit with the current AU cockpit on my size 54 PR4?
2) If not, can I achieve my fit with a different stem/bar configuration?
3) OR can I achieve my fit on my size 54 PR6 (maybe with some modifications)? It has the original 2015 fork/stem.

Fit Coordinates on QR PR4 Disc (the first number is from the fitting, the second is where the bike is currently set):

• Pad Reach (BB center to middle of elbow rest): 545 (currently 495)
• Pad Stack (BB center to middle of elbow rest, pad removed): 600 (currently 650)
• Aerobar drop (top of saddle to elbow rest, pad removed): 140 (currently 90)
• Cockpit (saddle tip to extension end): 870 (currently 870)
• Extension length (back of pad to extension end): 385 (currently 390, which feels good for where my elbows rest)
• Extension angle: 10 degrees (currently 10 degrees)
• Setback: saddle tip to BB center (-17). I didn't measure this, but it seems more than 17 when I eyeball it).
• Seat height: 743 (currently 753 because I started feeling some knee pain, so raised it 1cm which has helped)
• Seat tube angle: 81 (seat is currently set back at about 77 in order to achieve proper cockpit length)
• Reach to pad (tip of saddle to center of rear elbow rest): 535 (currently 535)
• Pad width: 230 (currently at 210, which feels comfortable)
• Tip Width C-C: 85 (I don't know what this is, so didn't measure it)
• Crank Length: 160

Equipment

• Saddle - ISM PN 1.1 (same saddle I've been riding for several years). Also, some of the coordinates above are taken from the tip of this saddle, so they may be incorrect since it's noseless)
• Stem: Aeria Ultimate 100mm
• Bar/Pads: Aeria Ultimate

I am planning on selling one of the bikes, and your answer will help determine which one.Thank you for any help you can provide!

Greg

 

weakandpuny, don't go crazy on "the up". There's probably a place...5mm higher, 10mm higher were you'll get all the relief you want/need and you won't creep up into a place that starts to diminish performance. Sure, as you said, you get up in the wind and it just becomes kinda silly. Moreover, if you come up too high you start to loose some ability to produce power glute and hip flexor and you might even rotate yourself into a position where the saddle is no longer comfy. Take it step by step you'll probably be surprised how a little step has a huge gain in comfort.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

musicman,
Something seems funky in these numbers to me and I want to double check before I prescribe the right PR4 for you. "Arm Pad Stack at 693" - seems possible. I would have guessed something closer to 577 but based on your pad drop and seat height this seems plausible.

"Arm Pad Reach: 382" and then "Arm Pad Reach BB: 693". This is the part that's got me confused, especially if your saddle set back is -17. I'm just hoping beyond hope that one of these numbers is a typo. Can you confirm and get back to me?

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

EP,

If you're after the PR4 or PR5 then... it's a 54cm with a 90mm stem, zero spacers under the stem and .5mm of aerobar pedestal with arm cups 1 hold forward of all-the-way-back.

If you're after the PR6 then...it's a 54cm with the 75mm stem and the stem bar clamp set in the low position + 20mm of arm pad pedestal. Use the front arm cup hole and orient the arm bracket forward.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Thanks Ian. I’ll keep you posted.

---

"I drank what?!?!" - Socrates
Poor Swimmer. Weak Cyclist. Slow Runner.
TriDot Ambassador / Sacramento Triathlon Club

Your target position can be fairly closely matched on the 54 PR4

(PR4 is same geo as PR5, I just haven't added it as a separate name in my database yet)

5mm steerer spacer means one of these with no other spacers: https://speedandcomfort.com/.../copy-of-5mm-top-cap

Pad Row 11 means the 2nd most forward config

No need to worry about pad col as you're happy with width

Note that I modified your Pad XY to be to the rear of the pad

Basically you need the bars fully slammed and nearly all the way forward. You'll likely need new extensions if your bars came with T4C (definitely if they were cut) as the new generation ones are longer, a 400mm extension gives a max length of 376 (on x axis, so will be fine on diagonal).

Thank you, cyclenutz! I appreciate your help. The 400mm bar extenders makes sense to achieve the proper reach. I'm still not sure how I can lower the stack from 650 to 600. The current top cap appears to be 15mm (photo attached), so a new 5mm cap will lower the stack to 640mm. There are currently no spacers on the bars (photo attached), so it seems to be as slammed as it can go. I'm not sure how to achieve the final 40mm in drop with the AU bars. Thank you again for any assistance.

Greg

At this point I'm going to suggest that you remeasure the Pad Y. The only way I can see that setup being at 650 is if the frame isn't a 54.

Greg,

Couple of things...
1) cyclenutz (David Bowden, VelogicFit) is a master at this, a savant, brilliant! We're lucky to have him involved in this thread.
2) If you measure out and find that you're still down where you want to be.....I suggest you click on over to Cobb's Speed & Comfort page and order an ultra thin top cap: https://speedandcomfort.com/collections/top-caps

It'll look like this and you'll gain ~10mm:


Keep us posted, Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Yes, that was it. My measurements were way off. Thanks again!

Thank you, Ian. My poor measurement skills were to blame! It's where it needs to be.

Hi Ian,

I'm interested in the PRSix Disc. I'm 33 male and 6ft. My last Retul fit was in 2015, so I plan to get another in early 2020. I am a much stronger cyclist now. My next bike needs to fit a more aggressive position. I have been doing tri's for over 10 years and just cracked the top 10 of my AG in my last IM. Hoping for a AG podium in the coming years.

Saddle height: 812mm
Handlebar reach: 505mm
Handlebar drop: -124mm
saddle setback: -24mm
armpad reach: 436mm
armpad drop: -68mm
armpad sack: 725mm
armpad reach: 412mm

Thanks for the help!

flight<bird,

Don't know how I missed this. Terribly sorry.

I'm thinking your Pad Stack is ~651 and your Pad X is ~502. Now, let's take into account your desire for best bang for the buck. For me (fit snob) position is job one so we've got to nail that! We're going with rim brake to save a few doubloon and the groupo...well, that's up to you. What's nice about this prescription is that it applies to both the PRfive and the PRfour so you can choose.

Size 54 with the 110 stem, 10mm of spacer under stem and 5mm aerobar pedestal, use the 3rd from back bolt holes in the arm cups and screw them into the forward holes on the mounting bracket.

Let me know if you have more questions. Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Hello Ian,

Thanks so much for your help! I've been looking at the PRfour, do you know anyone in the Houston area who can help me out?

Thanks!

jgills,
Help out with purchase? It's probably Philip at Shama Cycles.
Help out with fit before you buy? That could be Philip too (waiting to hear back). I'm willing to help and can get pretty darn close with some info...

Do you have a tri bike now that fits well and if so - I want the Pad Stack and Pad Reach off of that (I can tell you how to measure at home).
Do you have a road bike at home now that fits well and if so - I want the seat height and your height and your inseam and let me work with that.

Let me know, Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

I'm looking for help with a fit before I buy, but also purchasing if it works out and I like the bike. I do not have currently have a tri bike, I've done a couple longer events on road bike but I never had a proper fit performed with it. I don't necessarily know if the setup I have is the best fit, but I haven't had an issues on long rides. I'll give Shama a call and see if I can get in touch with Philip. I'm 5'-8.5" with a 30" inseam (I'll have to shoot over the seat height when I get home later).

Thanks again!
John

Hi Ian. I'm considering a PRfour Disc within the next several months. The default table seems to suggest a 54 or 56. My measurements are:


Overall Height (cm) 181.2
Inseam (cm) 88.5
Torso Length (cm) 59.0
Overall Arm Length (cm) 187.0
Shoulder Width (cm) 41.5

Much appreciated!

---

---------------------------------------------------------------

https://connect.garmin.com/modern/profile/domingjm

Jgills,

Also call Cynthia Stewart at Bike Barn 713.522.8911. I just had an email exchange with her that tells me she's a top drawer fitter.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

domingjm,
I'm gonna put your Pad Y at about 634 and your Pad X rear at about 450. And if those numbers are right (knowing your current saddle height on road or tri would help me be more certain) I think you should be on a 52cm PRfour with a 90mm stem in the -17 configuration, 5mm of spacer under the stem, and arm cups mounted one hole back of center and in the forward bracket holes.

You could get this done on a 54cm but you'd be up against the wall in terms of Pad Stack (lowest possible).

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Awesome, thanks. Do you measure saddle height from the center of the cranks, along the seat tube? Please note that I prefer a pretty aggressive position.

---

---------------------------------------------------------------

https://connect.garmin.com/modern/profile/domingjm

Center of bottom bracket (where cranks spin around) to the top of the saddle in the middle - just a straight line, ignore seat tube.

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Ian,

Thanks so much for all of the assistance you Provide! It's very much appreciated and valued!

I'm coming from a 54cm Scott plasma 10 (the UCI legal 4 frameset). I had been on it for 4 years now and finding that It was putting me into a very quad dominant position and affecting my run off the bike. I've been re fit on my current set up and there is NO way that it is going to work. So here is what we came up with. I'm 5'11" with a 32.75 inch inseam. 175 lbs. One thing is the need to focus on keeping hips open as I'm just coming off FAI Cam impingement surgery (Where they shave your femur down), Micro fracturing and Torn hip Labrum repair surgery on top of Osteitis Pubis and multiple stress fractures of my pelvis. I'm quite flexible. Riding a Cobb Plus Saddle.


Pad Stack 659
Pad reach 426
Saddle Height 767
Saddle Setback 11
Saddle to Pad Drop 155
Saddle to Pad Reach 483
Grip reach 742
Grip drop 82
Grip angle 48
Arm pad to grip 347
BB to Grip 773
Arm pad Drop -100

I'm a distance guy. I'm OK at the game. I'm open to any and evey suggestion to get me to that finish line faster! Aero and comfortable enough to run a fast marathon off the bike!

Once again, THANK YOU!!

I'm looking at buying a PRfive, size 56cm, based on what I can make of their sizing. My current fit is on a 61cm Cervelo P3 with 165mm cranks.
Pad Y = 685mm
Pad X = 478mm (pad rear) or 529mm (pad middle)
Pad Z = 133mm (inside edge to inside edge)
Saddle Drop to Pad 84mm


My inseam is 925mm


Does the 56cm frame sound correct?

---

I'm closer to the feathered end of the spear than the point.

mpkellyjunior,
There's some good info in here (beyond the numbers), thank you - the more I know the better I can prescribe. You're leggy and that makes the reach aspect of your fit short and it complicates things slightly. I fit lots of people built like this, I'm built like this so don't freak out when you, a guy who's 5'11", the frame size I'm about to lay down here (it's 'cause of your morphology and that 426)

If you get a QR PRsix (the super bike) it's a a size 50, with the 90mm stem, the stem clamp shell in the "high" position, 65mm of pedestal, arm rest in the middle hole with the bracket rearward.

If you get a QR PRfive or foure it's a size 52, with a 70mm stem in the -17 configuration, with 10mm of armrest riser, with armrests mounted one hole back from middle.

Now, with the hip focus - combined with 100m of drop - I want to suggest...nay, insist that you go with short cranks (155s). One option is that you call QR within your order and get a set of Rotor 155 cranks installed on that bike before ship. Later, if you l like you can get Rotor's new INspider powermeter worked into that.

I'm here if/when you have questions, comments.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

David_Tris,

Well, it will work on the 56 and the 58.5. Let me 'scribe 'em both and we can discuss.

If it's the 56.... 90mm stem in the -17deg position, 5mm of armrest risers, 30mm of stem spacer height, and pads mounted one hole away from the saddle from the center hole.

If it's the 58.5... 90mm stem in the -17deg position, 5mm of armrest risers, zero stem spacer height, and pads mounted one hole back towards the saddle from the center hole.

this is a VERY tough call - both setups are excellent. For me there's one tiny aspect that tips me towards the 58.5 and it's that I like the stem slammed more than I like 30mm of spacer, 30mm of spacer is acceptable for sure but not my preference.

Thoughts?

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Dude - 9:00pm and you're helping folks, you rock!

It's a used 56cm PR5, so this was more of a "I'm not limiting myself, am I" kind of question. My P3 has 10mm under the bar and another 20mm above, and I've got the DI2 junction hiding behind it. So I guess I'm used to not being slammed. I have a Torhans bento that covers that junction box and kind of hides the fact that it's not slammed. As long as I can get the reach I need, I could be OK with this spec. I've been on an undersized bike before, and do not want to be there again. FWIW I'm 64 and not as flexible as some *cough cough* younger riders.

Could I slam the base bar and add more spacers to the aero bars/pads and get the same fit?

---

I'm closer to the feathered end of the spear than the point.

That's an option but for TT I'm fine with a big disparity between the basebar elevation and the aerobars - for Tri I like the base bar and the aerobars to be closer in height. You should go for with the 56, sounds like it's a great find!

Ian

PS. only 7pm in California.

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Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Ian,

Thanks for the VERY detailed respose! I can't thank you enough. But I'm a bit confused......I had dissected my numbers myself and would have put muself on a 52cm with either the PR5 or PR6, I'm a numbers nerd but no pro hence I go see the best fitter I can find. My fitter just threw me a curveball and sent me over an email stating he liked the idea of a 54cm PR5 with a 90mm stem and minimal spacers below stem and 20mm pedestal under pads (the most I am personally comfortable with). I am certainly NOT discounting anyones opinion, I am trying to be as informed as I possibly can to make the best decision I can for myself. Does your opinion change at all if I tell you that I made a mistake and one I forgot to add the 20mm (Measured with 100mm stem when it should have been 1200mm stem. Yes that how poor The Plasma fit me) and specified that my 426mm Pad reach was to the back of the bars and should actually have read 446 and my mid pad reach was 488mm? Does this look a little more normal morphology? HA! And thank you very much for the suggestion of the 155mm Crankset, It was discussed during my fit session. I would have not have thought about asking for it at point of purchase through QR!

So it should actually read

Pad Stack 659
Pad reach 446
Pad reach mid pad 488
Saddle Height 767
Saddle Setback 11
Saddle to Pad Drop 155
Saddle to Pad Reach 483
Grip reach 742
Grip drop 82
Grip angle 48
Arm pad to grip 347
BB to Grip 773
Arm pad Drop -100

 

mpkellyjunior,


I know from context that you mean a 120mm stem and not a 1,200mm stem. This is how the Mars Rover crashed into the surface of that planet :) No, seriously, the stem length didn't/dosen't really matter to me. Here's the evidence I'm working with in your post: you had a fit done, it's a fit that you believe in, and from that fit you know that your Pad Stack is 659 and your Pad Reach is 426. If I've got Pad Y and Pad X from a good fit - that's the best data we can have and we should be confident moving forward with that. And, by the way, you didn't specify that the 426 was to the back of the pad, but I knew because that number's too short to be to center of pad. It does matter a great deal if you're talking about the PRsix or the PRfive as they are complete different bikes due to the super front end on the PRsix.

But.....now that we know that your real Pad Reach is 446 and we know you're focusing on the PRfive..

It's common that a person can fit on 2 different sizes of bike - sometimes 3 or even 4. In those extreme cases we can typically toss the outliers and narrow it down, but we often find ourselves in a place where two different frame sizes can work and work well. And then you can commit to a size of bike (a 54 for example) and then have two, three different ways to get your pads pretty darn close to where you need 'em on that size bike. It's RARE that we can hit your exact number and that's okay because 1 or 2 or 3mm off is acceptable.

For example this set up results in Pad Y of 656 & Pad X of 447
Size 52... 90mm stem, -17 degree configuration, 30mm of spacer under stem, 15mm of armrest risers, back of armrests offset -32.5mm

Well, If I math out that set up: a 54 with a 90mm stem in the -17 config with zero spacers under stem and 15mm of pedestal (the max that can be done based on my info here) you'd come out with a Pad Y of 652. That's 8mm off your number and it results in a drop of 108 when you are spec'd with a drop of 100.

If you went a 54cm PRfive with a 90mm stem, in the -17 config with 20mm of spacers below the stem and 10mm of armrest riser you can get a Pad Stack of 661 - which is 1mm off your number. With that Pad Y nailed down now you can choose between a 442 or 450 in Pad Reach. One of those numbers is 4mm shorter than you wanted and one of those numbers is 4mm longer than you wanted. I, as a fitter, would now reflect back on the fit and consider these two questions:
1) Does this athlete (you) require a more precise drop or a more precise cockpit distance?
2) Where were did the elbows of this athlete (you) sit on the pad (or off the pad) in the final position and would it be okay if the cockpit was a bit longer or a bit shorter?

The absolute closest we can get to your numbers (659-446) is 657 and 445 and that's a 54, 90mm stem, -17, 10mm spacer under stem, 15mm spacer under armrests, armrest offset -55mm.

I'm here, get back to me with more questions if/when you have 'em.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Ian,

I'm back! And thanks for ALL of your help. I ended up with a 54cm PR6 Disc for myself which arrives tomorrow. I'm pretty excited! But now were onto a new rig for my lovely wife. She finished her fit Yesterday, and were now going through the options. She was previously on a 51cm C'Dale slice with 165mm crankset and was feeling crammed. The bike just looked small on her. The last 2 years although still very flexible, she has pretty consistent issues with tight Hip Flexors and Hamstrings.

She's 5'5.5"
Saddle Heigh 722
Reach to Back of Armpad 406
Stack to top of Armpad 619


Again, were trying to keep the number of spacers underneath the stem and pedestals under pads to a minimum. I'm trying to get her to as perfect of fit as possible. Give her every chance for success! Your thoughts?

Thanks!!

mpkellyjunior,
If she was to get a PRsix like yours, and you wanted to minimize spacers... 50cm with a 75mm stem, the high stem position, with only 5mm of arm pad pedestal, the bracket rearward, and mid-front armrest hole. This could also be done on a 52cm with a 75mm stem, the mid stem position, with zero arm pad pedestal, the bracket rearward, and the front armrest hole. That set up on the 52cm is pretty much rock bottom on the position; there's almost no way go to lower than that.

If she was to get PRfive or PRfour then it could be a 48cm bike with a 70mm stem in the -17deg position, 30mm of spacer under stem, 10mm of aerobar pedestal, armrest offset of -25mm. If she went with the 50cm it would still be the 70mm stem, -17deg pitch but then only 10mm under stem and 5mm of pedestal, and then armrest off set -40mm - again the 50cm bike is nearly at the bottom in terms of adjust ability.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Hello Ian,

i just recently had bike fit done, but i'm not sure I trust the results. Could you take a look and see if it is realistic numbers? PadX looks quite low for me.

I'm 5'10'' tall.
Currently riding 54cm road bike (trek domane alr) which seems to be ok. I'm looking for PR4 Disk
Current saddle height is 698.

The Retul results for Tri bike:
Saddle Height: 687
Saddle setback: -42
Arm Pad Stack BB: 703
Arm Pad Reach BB: 248
Arm Pad Reach: 289
Arm Pad Drop: 37
Frame Stack: 611
Frame Reach: 359

Thank you
Oleg

Oleg,
I agree, the Pad X (Pad Reach) numbers don't make sense. Even the Pad Y is suspicious: they've got you at 703. If I massage your saddle height and pad drop it would think Pad Y would be more like 645ish - and if all you gave me was a few choice bio markers I'd put your Pad Y at 630ish and Pad X at 430 (to rear of pad where QR measures it).

I'm going with Pad Y of 635 and Pad X of 435 and I'm going to prescribe this with room to move. Don't freak when I give you the size. QR sizing is both magically logical and startling at first. You should be on a 52cm bike, with a 90mm stem set up in the -17deg position with a 10mm spacer under that stem and 10mm of arm pad pedestal. The pads should be off set -55mm or -47mm resulting in either a Pad X of 430 or 438 respectively (that's just one screw hole fore-aft in the arm cup). There's lots of room to move here both in the reach of your cockpit (there's a 70mm stem and a 110 stem plus lots of fore-aft in the armpads). And there's up and down with up to 30mm under stem, 15mm pedestal and flipping the stem to a +17 position.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Just a bump here because there's a Black Friday sale going on where you can save up to $2050 here https://quintanarootri.com/pages/triathlon-bikes?utm_source=pardot&utm_campaign=qr-black-friday-2019

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Thanks for the reminder! Ordering my wife's bike next weekend (early Christmas surprise). :)

---

- John
"Have courage, and be kind."

PERFECT!!!

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Ian,
Looking to make my first tri bike purchase. I’ve never been fit, I’m on a spec allez road bike.

Height (5’5”)
Inseam 77 cm +/-
Saddle height 665 mm

I’m looking at the PR6 and PR5 I’m assuming 50. Thoughts from the little bit I could give you. Thanks in advance.

Jeremy1usc,
If you look back through this thread and others I've posted on in the Forum you'll see that I'm a FIRM believer of a prioritized progression of the bike buying process...
1) Go to a fitter who's educated, experience, and has the proper tooling (dynamic fit bike) and have a fit done BEFORE you buy. This will result in the exact size and front end configuration you need as well as all the coordinates. The fit is essentially done before you even own the bike.
2) Take an existing tri bike that fits well, measure the Pad Y and Pad X of that bike and shop for the new bike based on those numbers. As said, this won't work for you as this purchase will be your first tri bike.
3) Give me some numbers about you, your morphology, and let me try to estimate the Pad Y and Pad X for purchase.

I wanted to make that preface because I see "usc" in your screen name - if that speaks to an institute of higher learning in the Los Angeles area please make an appointment with me at my fit studio wedged between Santa Monica and Malibu, and let's do this perfectly with the #1 method. If I'm guessing wrong and the USC as you're using it stands for something like Uxbridge (Massachusetts) Service Center well then here we go with option 3....

I think your Pad Y is ~578 and your Pad X is ~446.

If you were going to get a Quintanna Roo PRsix....it would be a size 48 with the 90mm stem (they make 3 stems: 75, 90, 110), the base clamped in the "mid" position (meaning one of the clam shells atop and one below), +10mm of arm pad pedestal, the arm rest mounted in the middle hole and the bracket oriented forward. There's lots of room for fore 'n aft movement in the cockpit with this prescription and there's lots of room to go up, and 10mm to go lower.

If you were to get the Quintanna Roo PRfive (or four)... it would be a size 48 with the 90mm stem in the -17 degree position and slammed (that is to say zero spacers under the stem), and the the pads either offset -17.5mm or offset -10mm - the former results in a Pad X of 441, the latter is a Pad X of 449 (I think you're around 446 so this'll either test my estimation or your preference to where your elbow sits: on the pad or off the back of the pad slightly).

Be sure to let me know if you're in the LA area.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Ian,

I've been considering a new bike (probably PRfive, maybe PRsix if they fit) for a little while now and the sale is making me itchy to pull the trigger. But I've never had a fit, so I think I should follow the recommended steps. Could you suggest a fitter in or around Pittsburgh, PA? I'd be willing to travel a bit (up to 4-5hrs give or take). Thanks!

Hi Ian ,
Thanks for doing this. I too am considering a Pr5 or pr6 and wondering what you might recommend if I was trying to get close to my current fit. My last fit was a few years ago and currently have a 2011 Blue Triad EX. I’ve focused mainly on 70.3 and 140.6 races so position might be a bit relaxed. I should be able to go a little lower up front.
My retul setup from a few years ago is...
Frame stack 520
Frame reach 382
Saddle height 702
Saddle setback 21
Pad stack BB 678 (bb vertical to top arm pad)
Arm pad reach BB 375 (bb Horiz to back of pad)
I have a 70mm stem +6
165mm cranks

Thank in advance ,
Al

A friend bought a QR Disk and loves it... I had to do a stem riser etc... to get my bike to fit my new fit... was comfortable but she is getting OLLLD and starting to show it.

Here are my stats... anything work?
saddle height 87.5
Saddle setback 1.3
Saddle armrest drop 5.0
Saddle-armrest 46.5
Armrest extension 34
Armrest width 24

Appreciate your help/thoughts

Hi

Thanks for the help


Stack 680
Reach 453


Seems I'm an outlier


JW

If your reach number is to the middle then you can check out my options from the first posts on this thread as our numbers are really similar. (680/455)

---

@the.lazy.triathlete

https://www.strava.com/athletes/18691068

Hey

Thanks for the reply. Ill take a look and go from there.

JW

weakandpuny,

Let's hear the IMAZ race report with extra focus on bike performance and bike comfort - inquiring, QR loving minds want to know.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Hi Ian,

I'm interested in the PRSix Disc. I'm 33 male and 6ft. My last Retul fit was in 2015, so I plan to get another in early 2020. I am a much stronger cyclist now. My next bike needs to fit a more aggressive position. I have been doing tri's for over 10 years and just cracked the top 10 of my AG in my last IM. Hoping for a AG podium in the coming years.

Saddle height: 812mm
Handlebar reach: 505mm
Handlebar drop: -124mm
saddle setback: -24mm
armpad reach: 436mm
armpad drop: -68mm
armpad sack: 725mm
armpad reach: 412mm

Thanks for the help!

EricP,
There's one big confusion (see note at bottom) and so many variables in here - prescribing now means I'm using old numbers and I'm unsure if you're thinking PRsix or PRfive/four. I'm willing to do both. I'd love to know where you live city/town because I agree with you about your development and time for a refit. My expectation would be an arm pad elevation of ~80mm and you're currently at 68mm. That would put your new Pad Y ~12mm lower than your current. Again, this is all speculation and if you're willing to share your locale I'd to recommend a fitter in your area if I have one - and not by equipment alone (Retul). As Slowman once floored me with.... "nobody ever comes to work on Monday and says 'I went to the most amazing Fender guitar concert this weekend'. What they say is 'I heard Mark Knopfler play this weekend and he is amazing'."

Clear up one thing for me... is your Pad Reach 412 or is it 436? And, do you want to be work out both the super bike (PRsix) and the mortal bikes (PRfive and PRfour)?

Let me know and I'll respond immediately, Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Thanks for asking, Ian.

My first Ironman (after three 70.3s) was Ironman Santa Rosa 2018, which I finished in 16:09. My bike then was a basic 2012 Cervelo P2. Poor pacing and climbing skills, combined with mediocre fitness, burned too many matches on the bike, thus nuking my run.

Arizona (Goal time of 15:30)

I was much better on sticking to my training plan (Be Iron Fit - Intermediate). I'm still a shitty swimmer and slow runner, but I had a race plan in my mind. Overall I'm not a very good triathlete, but went into this race with much better bike fitness, and a way better and faster bike.

Swim: Water wasn't too cold. I double-cap and wear ear plugs, so I was fine temp-wise. I couldn't get clear of crowded water, so occasionally swallowed some nasty Tempe Town Lake water. Swim time 1:37, which was 3 minutes faster than in the nicer water at IMSR. I was ok with this time.

T1: I chose to forgo the wetsuit strippers at swim exit due to the air temp being ~50 deg. Ran the .4 miles to changing tent. Ended up being quite cold as I dried off and tried to put my cycling kit on. I was shivering so bad I was shaking like a research monkey. A volunteer took pity on my and helped me get on my arm warmers, vest, helmet, and shoes. Another volunteer brought me some hot chicken broth to help warm my core. Once I was able to warm up, I finally got on my bike and hit the course. T1 time was 27 minutes. Ugh! I should have been MUCH closer to 15 minutes.

Bike: Out on the bike course I settled into a comfortable pace going through town. Shortly after hitting the Beeline, I noticed my heart rate was about 12-15 bpm higher than optimal. Probably within the first 10 miles I began feeling a side-stitch like pain below my right rib cage. I figured perhaps I was pushing the outbound incline on the Beeline too hard, and if I backed off to a more conservative pace, it would go away. It didn't. My heart rate settled down and now I was rolling a good pace. 15-16 mph outbound Beeline had me comfortably passing a lot of athletes, and OBVIOUSLY being passed by some way better cyclists than me. My side stitch progressed to full-on abdominal cramps by the time I got to the turn around. I found I was able to stay longer in the aero bars on my QR PR Four than I did when I rode my Cervelo P2.

On the return leg of the Beeline, I was hauling ass (for me it was lol), holding 29-32 mph almost the entire way back. I was feeling like a rock star. At least a front-of-the-back-of-the-pack Ironman. On the second outbound of the Beeline I began to feel pain in my left knee. Over the course of my training for this race, I failed to strength train and seldom stretched. About 2 months prior to the race I noticed my IT band was frequently tender. Did I address this issue with rehab exercises and stretching. Of course not, don't be ridiculous. I continued at a comfortable pace up the Beeline to the turn around, but my stomach was cramping quite bad by now. I had considered backing off my fuel / hydration plan to see if it would go away, but thought that if they didn't, I would be behind and risk dehydration / bonk. I stopped at the aid station at the turn around and stood upright to walk around for a few minutes to see if my cramping would subside. No luck. Clock still ticking. I rode to the bike special needs pick up, and got off the bike again. Now I was on the side of the road with a volunteer holding my bike, while I was doubled over at the waist moaning and grunting loudly. At this point (~56 miles) I was seriously considering abandoning the race. Another volunteer eventually came over and asked if I wanted medical. I said no, and rode away before medical could pull me from the course (not sure if they would, but I didn't want to risk it.).

Now I changed my perspective; small victories. Get to the next aid station...then the next. Last loop. My knee is killing me and I am miserable with my abdominal cramps. Soldier on. Same, if not faster, outbound leg, and slightly slower return leg. The cramps are really starting to fatigue me now. I finally got back into town and rolled into T2. I saw my wife and daughter as I got off my bike. Got sugars and started breaking down crying. It hurt that bad. My wife encouraged me to keep moving forward...so I did. My knee was also hurting pretty noticeably at this point, so the marathon should be delightful

Bike time: 6:40. I was NOT OK with this time. I figured I lost at least 25 minutes at the side of the road at aid stations / special needs, just dealing with the stomach cramps. Without the cramps, I truly believe I would have been quite close to 6 hrs flat. The bike performed BEAUTIFULLY. In the many 5-6 hr training rides I did on the PR Four, I never felt knee pain, so I can only speculate that my doing my own fit, based on my prior fit specs and Ian's recommendation, were done incorrectly and exacerbated my wonky IT band.

Bottom line with reference to the bike. I FRIGGIN' LOVE THIS BIKE. It is a rocket ship. I was fairly comfortable throughout the 112 miles, and can only assume the comfort will be better with a more dialed in fit (done by someone who is not me), and better strength and core fitness.

Run: I began the run and settled into a Run 4 min / Walk 1 min. interval. My abdomen and knee still hurt a lot, but I was tolerating it. I was getting kinda bummed out by now. A bike leg that should have been fun, was not due to my pain. Now I'm on a spectator saturated run course and feeling quite miserable. Yeah Ironman is hard, and painful, and fatiguing, but it's also fun. I wanted to have fun. Rule #5, bro. Keep forward progress. My 4 min run was around a 10 min / mi. pace, and I kept my walk brisk...until around mile 19 of the marathon, and the wheels fell off. The left knee was now so painful I couldn't run anymore. I think the concrete surrounding Tempe Town Lake is the hardest on the planet. I finished the race walking.

Final time: 15:30. I hit my goal time exactly down to the minute, but felt I could have been much closer to 14 hrs even, were it not for the cramping / knee pain. It is what it is, but I came away from this race massively disappointed. Alas...what could have been.

---

"I drank what?!?!" - Socrates
Poor Swimmer. Weak Cyclist. Slow Runner.
TriDot Ambassador / Sacramento Triathlon Club

Al,
That 678 number is tallish and that 375 number is SUPER short. I'm thrilled to see the 165 cranks and I can't help but think that you should be riding steeper in seat angle. My immediate suspicion is the saddle (either type of placement): By moving your hips forward you'd likely hit a jackpot: just as comfortable, more power and more arrow 'cause you'd be longer and lower.

So here's my answer with current Pad Y of 678 and Pad X of 375: if it's the PRsix the only way to get close is a 50cm with the high stem/bar clamp + 75mm of pedestal. This is highest the 50cm will go and that yields 675 in Pad Y. Then you'd do the 75mm stem with the pads/bracket all the way. This is the shortest the 50cm will go and that yields a 385 in Pad Y. So the 50 doesn't quite hit your Pad Stack but the 52, 54, 58.5 will but then they are way too long in the cockpit. If you did the PRfive it's the 48cm bike with the 110 stem in a +17 position, 3cm under stem, 1cm aerobar riser, and pads 100% percent of the way back. The 678 is nearly dead-on and the length is still 4mm too long.

You see the theme here - we're having to go with a very small bike to get near the 375 number and we're having to jack it up to the max to meet the 678 number. It makes me doubt the fit. I'd love to see a pic of you, at profile, riding your current bike on a trainer, under power. And, I'd like to know what saddle you're on.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

SasquatchTri,
I don't have enough to go on yet......

The best way to buy a new bike is ALWAYS to get fit first. From that fitting you know your Pad Y and Pad X and shop with the utmost confidence and you have all your fit coordinates (seat height, set back, cockpit distance, pad width, etc. etc.)

The second best way might work for you here too: if you're happy with your current position then we can measure the Pad Y and Pad X off of that and shop with confidence. Get to me here and I'll give you easy instructions on how to do this at home.

If something happened to that bike (dismantled, out of town, whatever) then tell me how tall you are and your inseam and using those plus the numbers you provided I can respond right away with a pretty darn good guess on Pad Y and Pad X - and the bike that'll work.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Thanks man! OK... that is what my fitter exported to me when redoing me on my current bike....

I dont understand what you mean by Pad x and pad y....

I am 6'5" and 35" inseam

JW,
Not so much an outlier.

If you went with the PRsix the 54cm bike would be best with a 90mm stem set up in the mid-clamp position + 50mm of pedestal. The arm pads would be set in the mid-front hole with the bracket set rearward. This yields a Pad Stack of 680 and a Pad Reach of 450.

If you went with the PRfive (or four) I think the best option would be 56cm with a 70mm stem in the -17 degree position with 20mm spacers under stem and 5mm aerobar pedestal, and armrests offset -32.5mm. That yields Pad Stack of 680 and Pad Reach of 455. It could be done on a 54 or 58.5 as well but the position is extreme and you're nearly painted into a corner with little room to move on both those bikes.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Thanks so much.

Would I be extra twitchy with a stem shorter than 90?

Thanks

weakandpuny - or should screen name be tenaciousandpersistent? That was a great report. I'm gonna swim hats from fitter to coach here for a sec and say this: everything we triathletes do is straight forward and back (in the sagittal plane), you can be ready to go under 10 at IM and have hip stabilizers that are shriveled up pieces of bacon. It's a common thing for us. The number one strength exercise that triathlete should do are hip stabilizers to keep the glute med and abductors healthy and strong. Weather that's a side laying leg lift (think: Jane Fonda) or a clam or monster water with a band at ankle or one legged squats - something to keep those hips strong so that the IT band doesn't get overloaded.

Congrats on nailing that time even though it was a bitch to get there. And, yeah, water quality between Tempe and SR is HUGE!!!

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Thanks Coach. I have embarked on a strength / core routine since IMAZ. I'll keep it up until my training volume gets too high prior to IMSR 2020. I can only assume my abdominal cramps were due to Tempe Town Cess Pool.

---

"I drank what?!?!" - Socrates
Poor Swimmer. Weak Cyclist. Slow Runner.
TriDot Ambassador / Sacramento Triathlon Club

SasquatchTri,
It's possible that your fitter was just focused on positioning your current bike and wasn't too worried about a future purchase and, therefore, didn't see the need to write down the Pad Y and Pad X. I get it, it happens. Speaking those terms of art: Stack and Reach address a very specific place on a bike frame. When we discuss the location of the arm pads we're using same cartesian coordinate system that led us to Stack and Reach (imaging a Y and X axis where zero/zero is in the center of the bottom bracket and the Y axis extends straight up and goes right past the nose of your saddle. Then an X axis that extends level our of the center of the BB towards the axle of your front wheel) but now we're measuring to the top of the pad and the back of the pad. I'm not a fan of the terms Pad Stack and Pad Reach because they are too easily confused with Stack and Reach - hence Pad Y and Pad X.

I'm ready to take a stab at predicting your Pad Y and Pad X to prescribe a new QR, but before I do I want to suggest this. If you like your current position, and if you're able - I'd want you to measure the Pad Y and Pad X of your current bike. Here's how you'd do it...

• Set the bike on a level floor and lean it up against a wall or cabinets so it's as close to straight up and down as you can get.
• Dangle a plumb line (string with any weight on the end - a spoon for example) off the back of the arm pad so it hangs straight down and then measure from the center of the bottom bracket to that string. This is Pad X.
• Then (this might take two people) put a level through the center of the bottom bracket extending forward towards the front wheel and measure from the top of that level up to the arm pad. This is Pad Y.

Let me know if you can get those two numbers, if not I'll work with the data you've given me.

Ian

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Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Nah...we're past all that now. The bikes are built to ride with shorter stems.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

I will certainly give it a go when I have another set of hands. thanks!

Hello Ian,

I was hoping you could advise me as I look at a PR six. I have not yet been fitted and don't currently have a tri bike, so I have moved to option 3.

Height 5'11
Inseam 34"
Saddle Height - I found a few different calculation methods. Not sure which is best. My road bike is at home right now.

The QR size chart puts me on a 54cm. I was wondering if I could fit on a 52cm PR six. There are no dealers in my area.

Thank you,
Bob

Bob,
Here's what I'm gonna do - I'm not nuts about it - but it's an action I can take now. I'd MUCH rather have your road bike seat height but I'll do what I can with the info you've provided thus far...I think your Pad Y is ~632 and your Pad X is ~485. I'm okay with these numbers but I'm not enthralled with these numbers because there's just a bit too much noise in the process. Because of this I want to be sure I pick a size bike and front end config that allows for adjustment fore/aft/up/down in terms of the bars (as example - you can fit on a 48 but you are maxed out on both the Pad Y and Pad X - no where to go if you have to go higher or longer).

QR RPsix: it's a 52cm and let's stop right there for a sec. You're 5'11" what the hell could you possibly be doing on a 52cm bike. 52cm bikes are for Oompa Loompas! Well, let me 'splain it. QR sizes this bike by frame stack. The stack of this frame is 52cm. Which would be genius if not for the decades of programming that we've all had in matching body height to seat tube length. So let it go and, if it makes you feel better pretend I said "Medium". Okay, it's a 52cm bike with a 90mm stem, the stem-bar clamp in the mid position, 25mm of spacer, arm pad in the rear hole with rearward bracket orientation. You could fit on a 54 but 632 is near the bottom of that rage on Pad Y.

On the 52 you are almost dead center with my guess of height 632: you could go up as much as 60mm from that number or as low as 85mm from that number. In regards to the cockpit length: you could go up to 45mm longer or 80mm shorter - all on that bike, so there's room to move.

All this is great and you can shop with confidence but really, where do live 'cause I'd love to direct you to a great fitter if I have one in your area.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Ian,
Thank you for the quick response. I am home now. What is the best way to determine the saddle height of the road bike?

I live in Syracuse, NY and I plan on getting a bike fit done. I found a good deal on a 52cm PR six and I don't want to wait too long. That being said, I want to make sure it is the most optimal size for me. I don't have a problem with the number of the bike. After reading an article by Dan Empfield where he said he was 6'2" and riding a 54cm, I got to wondering.

Let me know about the best way to measure saddle height and I will get that info back to you.

And also if there are any fitters you would recommend in my area.

Thanks,
Bob

Hi Ian,

I purchased a QR PR6 Disc size 56 a few months ago. I had a second Retul fit done and switched to 165mm crank from 172.5mm crank per discussion with bike fitter. My fitter said it would take some time to get used to the my position and it certainly has.

I had shoulder discomfort (mostly top of shoulder) in the position almost immediately when going to aero on my first rides in the position. Over the past two months I have gotten more comfortable and can do a 3 hour ride mostly in aero as long as I change how I place my arms on the cups and hands on the aero bars. I notice the most discomfort during the first 30 minutes of the ride then it seems my shoulders loosen and I feel more comfortable. During recovery rides (I do them super easy around 100w when my ftp is 300w) I have the most discomfort in aero which seems odd to me.

Any thoughts on ways to ease the pressure on my shoulder? Should I just give it more time? Experiment with different arm pad and aerobar angles? Strength training exercises? I do 2-3 hours of gym training a week but perhaps I'm not working the correct muscles. I can send photos if you want.

Thanks

EricP,
When you switched from 172.5 to 165s the saddle should have gone up 7.5mm. The handle bars would need to be raised 7.5mm too to hold the same arm pad elevation (aka, drop) but with shorter cranks the idea might be that you can handle more drop. Can you recall what changes were made to the fit after the 165s were installed?

My immediate thoughts to reducing your shoulder pain would include all of these tests:

1. wider arm cups
2. aerobar tilt (up)
3. longer cockpit

You can post pics here if you want and I'll take a peek, but they'd have to fit this criteria: set the bike on a trainer and get it level. Dress in tight fitting duds so I can see body angles. Do a warm up and then ride at or near your 40k race pace effort for just a bit and shoot a pic of you at profile and then another head-on.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Ian,
I am in the Syracuse, NY area. Wondering if you have any fitters near me.

When you say I can shop with confidence, you mean for the 52cm PRsix, right? With the limited information I provided and your estimations on stack and reach, it sounds like it would allow room for adjustments.

Thanks again,
Bob

Hi ian heres my details.

6ft 3
Saddle height 849
Arm pad stack bb 726
Frame stack 596
Frame reach 448
There is other numbers there if you need them thanks.

Bob, I was dragging my feet on a response because I reached out to several fitters in your area hoping one might live up to my spec's (I'm a fit snob). Normally when anybody in New York says "who's a good fitter in my area" I default to one of the best fitters on the planet; Jonathan Blyer at ACME in Brooklyn - but Brooklyn while in the same state - you know.

Yes, confident in the 52cm.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Hey seanmcl,

I think you may have sent this to me rather than Ian. You may want to repost.

Ian,

Thanks for taking the time to look into this. And yes, Brooklyn is a haul.

I have a bike fit scheduled at Syracuse Bicycle on Jan. 3rd. I think I am going to order the 52cm and we’ll see how it goes.

Thanks for the advice and I will let you know how it turns out.

Bob

Bob, yes, please keep me posted.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Hi Ian

I am looking at the PR four! Attached is a fit on a cervelo p2, I felt as though i was a little to upright. Could you advise on frame size, I thinking a 56? Sorry I dont know my Pad x Pad y.

Bazza172,

This will be a good test for me. I can attempt to tease our your Pad Y and Pad X from some of the numbers you provided but I'd like some back up. Do you still have the old bike and could you take two measurements off of that for me?

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Hi Ian, sorry to make your life more difficult but I’ve just sold the old bike. I am 6ft 1 and have an inseam of 33in If that helps a little more

Bazza172,
No worries, that's why I'm here.
I took all your numbers and your comment about feeling too upright and I suspect your Pad Y should be somewhere around 650mm and your Pad X to be nearabouts 441 (to rear of pad)

For the Quintana Roo PRfour (this would be the same for the PRfive) the best option would be a 54cm bike with the 90mm stem in the -17deg configuration, zero aerobar armrest risers, 20mm of spacer under the stem, and armrests with -55mm of offset (3 holes fwd of back most position or 2 back of middle). You could also fit on a 52 but I like the 54 better as you're in the "middle" of that bike and it gives you more room to adjust to perfection.

Get back me of you have more questions/comments.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Ian, thank so much for your help!!

Hi Ian- Interested if you could help me out. I have not had a professional bike fit in quite some time, but am looking at a new QR PR6 or PR 5.

Could you spit out your magic numbers for me based on the following, please:

Height: 6'1 (184.5 cm)
Inseam: 34" (86.3 cm)
Saddle Height: 830 mm (83 cm).

Thanks!

Bump.

dlsieck,
Thanks for the bump and the patience. Super long legs for 6'1" - I'm your height and at 33in inseam, I can nearly relate.
I think your Pad Y is ~665 and your Pad X is ~500.

If you got the PRsix there are two ways to go:
1) Get the 54 with the 110 stem, clamp set mid, 35mm of pedestal and arm rest hole mid-rear, bracket oriented rearward.
2) Get the 56 with the 90mm stem, clamp set low, 25mm of pedestal and arm rest hole middle, bracket oriented forward.
You could also fit on a 52 and 58 but you're painted into a corner on both with no room to move. If I had to pick between the 54 & 56 I'd get the 56 only because I like my bullhorns/brakes in closer elevation to my aero position - in this case it's only 10mm but still.

If you got the PRfive, the best way to go is the 56cm with the 90mm stem set up in the -17deg position, 10mm of spacer under stem and 5mm of pedestal, and arm rests off-set -1.

Get back to me if you have questions.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

hi ian,

im working back and forth between several bikes for the new season and going forward. im currently on a "long and low" bike and i dont want to move away from that.

Stack to middle of a 12 degree tilted pad is 625
reach to back of said pad is 495
BB to seat center is 750.

the new QR PRSix 2 is very alluring due to the integrated hydration. im looking at that, a shiv disc, and a cervelo P5D. i was set on the shiv but looking at the wheelbase i have ruled the bike out pretty much.

per the x/y fit, i would be fit right in the middle of the x/y possibility on a 52, however looking at bike dimensions i would be able to do a 54, i would be slammed (one 5mm spacer) but it would get me a bike thats very very close to the standover / wheelbase of what im on now.

thanks in advance for the assistance!

---

80/20 Endurance Ambassador

damon.lebeouf, Let me workout both bikes first...

The QR PRsix2 in size 52 would have the 110mm stem with the bar set up with the middle (sandwich) clamp and 15mm of pedestal spacer. The armrest bracket would be forward and the armrest would be mounted in the middle hole. You'd have 30mm more in reach on this bike if ever you needed it (and 90mm less). You could also go down 25mm lower if needed (and up 70mm).

The QR PRsix2 in size 54 would have the 90mm stem with the bar set up with the lowest bar clap position and 5mm of pedestal spacer. The armrest bracket would be rearward and the armrest would be mounted in the rearward hole. As you've already noted you could only go 5mm lower and you've have lots of cockpit, both fore and aft with which to play.

You've already given this some good thought. I like the set up on both bikes. The one thing that I can add with most certainty is this.... as triathletes age pretty much all of them don't go lower in arm pad elevation, they go up. I assume you're getting older just like the rest of us so don't fret over the nearly slammed 54, my guess is that you won't be going lower on your already long and low position.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

thanks a lot for confirming what i was thinking ian! the help is much appreciated. :)

---

80/20 Endurance Ambassador

Just a quick and big thanks to Ian! I don't think these guys here that take the time and help us all out a great deal get much post purchase feedback or get the opportunity to see the results. Here are the results from his advice and Consult........

Referance I'm 5'10.5" and this is a 54cm QR PR6

Pad Stack 659
Pad reach 446
Saddle Height 767

Thanks Ian!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4cE8sZ5cFo

Ian, thanks a ton (in advance) for your help. Yup, both new bikes are leveled on Wahoo KICKR SNAP trainers in preparation for fit adjustments (can't do it on a work stand!).

My bike:
New bike, size: 52cm
Old bike seat height: 730mm

My wife's bike:
New bike, size: 48cm
Old bike seat height: 650mm

Seat height measured from the center of bottom bracket to top of saddle, following the seat post. I'm basing my measurement positions off the "Bike Fit Manager" diagram on my ST profile page (filling in values there as we go, too).

---

- John
"Have courage, and be kind."

John,

First, a couple of "big picture" elements:

1. I'd like comfort to be our primary driver. Built into that will be power because it'll be easier or more comfortable to make power in a certain place so those kinda go together. I'd like aero to just hang back for a while and not inform our choices in your position.
2. If you came into my studio and we spent a good chunk of time on your fit it might not be finished when you leave. You'd ride, you'd rider longer, and you might find that at some point in time (90min, 2hrs, 3hrs) something got uncomfortable and needed changing. So if that's true in the best case scenario (in the fit studio) than we must expect a progression of the fit process using an app or doing this via text in a forum.
3. I'd like to start with the "core four" : 1) seat height, 2) setback, 3) cockpit distance, and 4) arm pad elevation. Seat height and setback have to be done first and as the setback moves the seat height will be slightly effected.

Okay so, you're using your road bike seat height. Let's pretend that your road bike seat height is perfect for your road position. That won't be the same as your tri bike seat height and here's why.... on the road bike your hips are behind the bottom bracket to some degree. In a good tri position your hips will be forward more, and probably only slightly behind the bottom bracket. A HUGE part of the "setback discussion" relates to the saddle. Your road bike prolly has a road bike saddle on it and you sit very much ON that saddle (towards the middle of it). Your new QR came with some model of Adamo saddle and that saddle is designed to be ridden on the front of it, on the nose of it, perhaps even pitched off the front of it. So - your setback in the tri position will be less than the setback on your road position and because of that your seat height will be slightly higher on your tri bike.

I'm just gonna make some guesses here and then we should probably try and go to video.

Set the tri bike seat height to 755mm (measuring the same way you are on your road bike)
Set the tri bike setback to 30mm behind the bottom bracket (BB). Here's how you do that - dangle a plumb bob off one of the noses of the saddle. If you don't have a plumb bob you can make one with 90cm of string and a small weight (salt shaker for example). Dangle it so it rests near the BB and measure the gap between the center of the BB and string. Set the nose of the saddle 30mm behind the BB. Remember, this all done with bike level and secure on the trainer.

Before we proceed, I realize I gotta ask a question.... how long and the cranks on your road bike and how long are the cranks on the new QR tri bike?

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Yes, the new QRs both came with an ISM PN 2.1 saddle.

I did 30 minutes on the trainer today with the saddle at 735mm (see below) and the center position in the seat post and on the rails; it was quite comfortable as it was, actually. :)

I tried making the changes you recommended, however, I could barely touch the pedals at 755mm for the saddle, so I dropped it down to ~735. I set the 30mm setback, but it feels real far back (the bracket is as far back as it’ll go on the seat post, and the saddle is almost at the end of it’s rails). I’ve attached a photo of the seat position.


The cranks on my road bike were 170mm, and the QR has 165mm cranks. Both my wife’s road bike and her QR have 165mm cranks.

---

- John
"Have courage, and be kind."

Hi Ian,

I am interested in QR PR6 or PR5 or Canyon Speedmax 8 It will be my first tri bike so here are my body measurements followed by road bike

Height-180cm
Inseam-86 cm

Saddle- 74.3cm
Nose of ISM saddle to bars- 57.2
Saddle setback-12 cm
Current Road bike cranks are 172.5

Canyon 175 -----these big cranks worry me, for fit and gearing - I like to spin
QR 170
Any thoughts on one or the other in terms of fit?
Thanks so much
Donny

Hi Ian,

I am interested in QR PR6 or PR5 or Canyon Speedmax 8 It will be my first tri bike so here are my body measurements followed by road bike

Height-180cm
Inseam-86 cm

Saddle- 74.3cm
Nose of ISM saddle to bars- 57.2
Saddle setback-12 cm
Current Road bike cranks are 172.5

Canyon 175 -----these big cranks worry me, for fit and gearing - I like to spin
QR 170
Any thoughts on one or the other in terms of fit?

That being said after reading through the posts here it seems like a good plan to go see a fitter before buying. Do you know of any good fitters in the Boston MA area? Maybe mid-May we will have the go ahead to interact with the world again.
Thanks so much
Donny

 

Donny,
Certainly a pre-fit from a bike fitter who is educated, experienced in pre-fitting tri bikes, and has a dynamic fit bike is the absolute best you can do before you buy. I don't have a fitter at this time that I can recommend in Boston.
I'm guessing your Pad Y is right around 630 and your Pad X is right around 486. Based on that...

QR PRsix (or the new PRsix2) would be a size 52 with their 110 stem, the base bar held in the "mid clamp" position, 20mm of spacer, the bracket oriented rearward, and arm rest hole mid-rear you'd be be at 630/485. You'd have room to move in both the Pad Y (10mm down or 45mm up) and in Pad X (40mm longer and 80mm shorter).

QR PRfive again size 52 with a 110 stem in the -17deg position, 10mm of stem spacer + 5mm of aerobar pedestal, and arm rest off set at -25mm.

DO NOT FREAK OUT over the size 52. QR sizing is simultaneously brilliant and shocking - lemme explain: the "size 52" has a frame stack of 52cm. It would be so great if every bike maker did this. It's also shocking for a guy your height to be told, "hey a size 52 is right for you" based on our old world concept of that bike size.

Get back to me with questions.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Donny,

With regards to the 54 PRsix - still with their 110 stem but the base bar held in the "low clamp" position with just 10mm of spacer the bracket oriented rearward and arm rest in middle hole.

This bike works. I like the 52 better though because here, with the 54, you can only go down 10mm more before you reach the limit of the low Pad Y. If I'm too far off with my Pad Y of 630 guess then you're not riding in your preferred/optimal position.

Call them. Ask about the outlet bikes - it's very likely you can give them the specs I've given you here and they'll put the bike as you want it. When it arrives all you gotta do is rotate the bars up and you're good to go.

Ian

PS. make sure you get 165 cranks on it.

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Donny et al.

I wanna argue that this article is the best article that's ever been written on Slowtwitch - and there's been some damn good pieces written here.

https://www.slowtwitch.com/...an_s_Build_7657.html

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

I've been casually looking at bikes and am looking for something that can replace my 650C bikes.

Can you actually get the pad stack down to 505 like it says here?

https://cdn.shopify.com/...?3311666817806745570

And my pad Y is 394. It looks like 75mm stem?

Edit: on the 48

Ian, I was really hoping you could answer this, If not can anyone else?

Thanks

Hi Ian,

Based some of the suggestions you’ve provided based on other’s numbers, I think I am either a 48 or 50 in the PRSix2, but most likely a 48 to give me more flexibility in the stack.

Here are my numbers:

Height: 172.7
Weight: 185 pounds
Inseam: 77cm
Torso: 65.4cm
Arm: 63.1cm

TT Fit 1 - Bike 1 (Saddle Sam Marco/Bar HED/Stem 90x-10)
Frame Stack: 516mm
Frame Reach: 390mm
Handlebar Stack (BB to center of bar): 568mm
Handlebar Reach (BB to center of bar): 465mm
Saddle Height: 681mm
Saddle Setback: 29mm
Arm Pad Reach (tip saddle to back of arm pad): 384
Arm Pad Drop: -68mm

TT Fit 2 - Bike 2 (Saddle Cobb Gen2/Bar HED/Stem 100x-17)
Frame Stack: 519mm
Frame Reach: 384mm
Handlebar Stack (BB to center of bar): 558mm
Handlebar Reach (BB to center of bar): 465mm
Saddle Height: 696mm
Saddle Setback: -15mm
Arm Pad Stack BB: 603
Arm Pad Reach BB: 441mm

Road Bike - Specialized Tarmac 54cm
Saddle Height: 686mm
Saddle Fore/Aft: -48mm
Reach: 674mm
Drop: -44mm
Knee Angle: 30 deg
Crank Length: 172.5
Stem: 75mm -6 deg
Handlebar Width: 42cm
Saddle: Specialized Romin Evo 143mm

I hope the numbers jive since they were done by different fitters on different bike setups.

I was going with a frameset and plan to use the same cockpit setup as Slowman’s.
The saddle swapped from the Cobb Gen2 to the ISM PN 3.0

Your review and suggestion would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Vince

Nobody appears to be monitoring this thread anymore.

I got no response on the post I made in early May. I was so underwhelmed I bought a different bike.

Thanks! I’ve started to look at the Omni.

Jaretj, Thanks again. I'm with you now.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

antbear_xc,

Big hiccup on my end equates to nothing more than me dropping the ball. I've solved and I'm here for you if you still need assistance. LMK, Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Looking to “downgrade” from a full blown integrated front end and have landed on either a PRSix2 or a PRFive.

My current fit coordinates are:

Stack: 650
Reach: 495 (to center-ish of the pad. These are Speed Concept pads which have an angled shape. Back of the pad in the left to right middle is around 475).

I’ve been wanting to go a little lower and a little further out.

I’m pretty sure a 54 on the PRSix would be just about perfect to hit my current fit, but also give room to go a little longer and lower. I think if I’m reading the QR fit charts correctly that the 56 wouldn’t let me get much lower than I am now.

Thanks!

blueapplepaste,
I love language and I welcome any and all changes that come.... that said, we gotta protect certain terms: Stack and Reach are to the top of a head tube on a bike frame, I know - because you are so clear in your description (and thank you for that) that you mean Pad Y of 650 and Pad X of 495. You also wanna go lower and longer in cockpit so let's call it Pad Y of 645 and Pad X of 500

PRfive: size 54 with a 110 stem in the -17deg position slammed (no spacers under stem) and 5mm of pad riser. The pad should be positioned 2 holes forward of center. There is room to move... you can go up to 680 or down to 637 in Pad Y and you can go longer or shorter (454-521) all with that same 110 stem.

PRsix2: (this is a "downgrade"? from what??) size 52 with a 110 stem. Stem/bar clamp in the "high" position (meaning the two clam shells are under the bar within the clam) and 25mm of arm pad pedestal. Pad bracket in rearward position and pad mounted in rear hole. You've got room to move (down to 620 and up to 695) and in and out (440-525). This can be done in the size 54 too but less room to move lower in pads if you wanted to.

I'm here for more questions if/when you have 'em.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Awesome!! And yes - I meant x/y coordinates!

I guess not really a downgrade per se. I’m currently on a Trek SC, but want something easier to make adjustments on the front end of to quickly tweak fit, etc.

Thanks again! You gave awesome advice for my wife when we were purchasing a Canyon for her (fit perfectly once all set up), so no doubt this will be just as helpful.

blueapplepaste,
Yeah, I hear ya on the "ease of use" issue. As we continue along the path of superbikedom we get into situations (especially with brake lines) where it's supremely laborious to do simple stuff: drop 5mm in front end elevation or even pack the bike for travel.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Hi Ian, when I look at the geo charts for the PR5 and PR6 (both in disc format), the stack and reach appears to be the same. Out of interest, why do you recommend a different size in each? Just because of the type of stem the six comes with?
Thx!

SBRcanuck,
Just to be totally clear - and this relates to that previous post and reply - the PRsix and PRsix2 are the same bike in terms of fit and the coordinates that can be achieved. The difference is that the PRsix2 has the integrated hydration system. So your query is specific to the the PRsix (superbike, OEM stem) and the PRfour/five (mortal bike) which have different Pad Y/X coordinates.

The Pad Y/X parameters are close but not the same; in short, the PRsix is a lower and longer bike. As an example the 54cm PRfive the lowest it'll go is 636 while the PRsix in that size will get down to 620. The longest the 54cm PRfive will go is 512 but the PRsix in that size will get out to 540.

In terms of my prescribing... I'm not a huge fan of any bike with a +17 stem. If it has to happen okay but I'd rather have the -17 set up with all the lift possible (the max on the PRfour & fives is 30mm under the stem and 15mm under the arm pad). So that right there narrows my reference on the mortal bikes to a degree. I also like to take into consideration "room to move". The more info the better for me in terms of prescribing a size and it's possible (likely?) that someone will write in saying, "my overall height is XX, my inseam is XX, my seat height is XX on my road bike, I've got a long torso, I've been riding at Pad This and Pad That, but I'd like to change in this direction in the future...etc....etc". I'll take all that into consideration and prescribe a bike based off of the Pad Y/X that I think they'll ride. My concern is that they'll receive the bike, put it into the spot I recommended, and after 30 min of the first ride they know they want to move the pads a bit. I want to make sure I offer a bike that is NOT painted into a corner and can't be adjusted a little bit in all directions.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

OK thanks, I was just going by the charts, but I think I see what you are saying, difference in adjustable I guess for X/Y..

So hypothetically, if I were going to do a PRfive disc, and plan to put a tririg Alpha One bar/stem on it, what would you recommend for:

Pad X = 48-49cm (to center of pad)
Pad Y = 64cm
Saddle height from center of BB to top of saddle = 72.7cm. I think I have stubby legs compared to my torso....I always seem to feel between sizes of bikes when looking at my low saddle height but higher bar setup. I use very little saddle to pad drop, even after a couple fittings, maybe 6cm.

So I don't know if I'd be a 52 or a 54 in the PRfive.

Good stuff.

I’m curious the. Why the 54 recommendation for the Five, but 52 for the Six? Should it be the other way around? If the 54 in the Six would get me down to 620, that’s a full 30 lower where I am now, which I doubt I’ll ever got that low (I’m not exactly high now either).

Whereas the 54 in the Five would only get me down to 637 if I’m understanding correctly.

If it further helps I’m 6’1” with a 32in-ish inseam when measured by a tailor (I wear 34” pants, which aren’t leggy at all. 32” pants end up being borderline high water pants).

SBRcanuck,
Let's start with something simple... Pad Y of 640 - okay. Pad X of 485 to center is ~445 to the back of the pad. If that's correct then.... Those numbers can fit on a 54cm PRfive but only just, you're right on the limit. Far better to be on the 52cm and that's with the stock stem/bar set up.

Oh wait.. I've just gone over to TriRig to play with their calculator and they measure to the center. So if I plug in a 52 QR PRfive and use your Pad X to center of 485.... it would be "monopost 4.5, 20mm of stem spacers" and "pads -20mm". I put that stuff in quotes because I have not yet personally built the bar so I can only trust that their are accurate. I'm sure they are or we'd hear about it endlessly here on the Forum. Now for some opinion...20mm of spacer under stem.. I'm good with that all day long. Pads back 20mm, fine. 4.5 monopost...Hmmm...I see 6.5 exposed in some gallery pics so it's good to know you're not near the limit. Keep in mind that your aero position (arm pads and extensions) and your "pursuit position" (hands on bull horns, descending turns, corners, accelerating hard) will be 45mm apart in elevation. That's a preferred position for pro cyclists and their TT positions and it's near the edge for most age group triathletes - not terrible, it's acceptable.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

blueapplepaste,

Pad Y of 650 to 630 - I didn't consider that a "little lower". I should have asked for a definition of terms. I'd be super curious to know what length crank you're riding currently.

Here's my though process...

In terms of Pad location I'm good with 3mm too long or too short, and I'm okay with 2mm too low or too high. I feel like those are acceptable variables. To that end...
The 50cm and the 56cm PRfive cannot deliver the 645 Pad Y so they, along with the 48 and 58, are not in the consideration.

The 52 PRfive can give you a 645 Pad Y with a 70mm & 90mm stem but that set up isn't long enough.
The 52 PRfive can give you 645 in Pad Y with a 110 stem but then the 500 is X is the longest the bike will go. Yes, if you go lower, you essentially slide down that 73 degree angle and buy a couple more millimetres.

The 54cm PRfive offers the best combo of your Pad Y and Pad X. You ride pretty long already and you say you want to ride a little longer...okay, the 54cm PRfive is your bike. If you want to go a lot lower (635 or below) then you need to go to the 52 but it'll limit you a bit on the length.

Now the PRsix.. that bike will deliver on your Pad Y and Pad X in a size 50, 52, 54, 56. The 50 and 56 don't offer that much wiggle room.
If you go with the 52, it's the script I wrote in the previous post:

If you go with the 54, it's this set up: 110 stem. Stem/bar clamp in the low position (meaning the two clam shells are atop the bar within in the clamp) and 25mm of arm pad pedestal. Pad bracket in rearward position and pad mounted in mid-rear hole.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

I threw that out more of a "I can't imagine going any lower than that" down to 630. Is that "a lot lower" in your view? I'm honestly super comfortable where I am now, the going lower was more of a "I want the option" just to futz around with things.


For the reach, lately I've found myself scooting my elbows just a hair forward as I settle into the ride. So again, when I say a "little longer" it's just a hair to get my arms back into being better supported by the cups.


I've been avoiding messing around with my fit on the SC just because it's such a process. I used to love wrenching on it, but now with a toddler and busy job, not so much (hence the change to a QR).


I'm currently on 172.5 mm cranks.


I attached a picture of my current position (forgive the bad head position - going through some bike traffic so had my head up a bit to better see).

pic didn't come through, would love to see it. When you order your QR ask 'em to put 165 cranks on there. Your seat height will need to change to go up 7.5mm and your drop will increase by 7.5mm so that's a little lower right there.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
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Let's try again.

Looks pretty good. I can see that you find yourself creeping forward. And, yes, the shorter cranks thing is a must.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Thanks! Anything obvious you'd recommend?


Curious about the definitive suggestion on the 165mm cranks? I've read so much and seems theres a camp that's hardcore in favor, and another that says it doesn't matter.

Certainly open to experimenting with it. Mostly I haven't because I have a Quarq on there, and didn't want to lose my PM to play with crank sizes.

I'll be brief...
Many riders can be comfortable, powerful, and a bit more out of the wind when they ride a lower arm pad elevation (AKA more drop). The factor that has limited this for....well, forever... has been this: at the top of the pedal stroke the hip flexor become impinged. That means as the foot approaches 11 o'clock the flesh starts to bind up, the leg circle slows, and there's a bit of delay getting over the top and back towards the start of the power phase (at...1:30? 2?).

There are two ways to solve this
1) lift arm pads
2) shorten cranks

You're 6'1"...normal morphology... 160s might be better but your options are fewer = 165s.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Cool - makes sense. Will go for the 165 then.

Now just gotta wait for them to go on sale again...

My wife has a PRSix Disc Size 48 and is very confortable on the bike, but after riding it for some time she wants to go lower. Her aero/basebar is the Profile Design Aeria Ultimate Carbon, she is currently using it with out any spacers and can´t go lower. Any recommendations? I'm attaching a pic.

Thanks

Hello Ian,

I’m 5’10” and “was” riding a 54cm PR3 until I got schwacked by a car in a race, so I need to replace the frame. So I’m looking to go to a disc brake PR5 or PR6. I was pretty comfortable on my 54 cm PR3 but may want to try a little lower and longer than my current fit. According to the QR fit tables it looks like I can go with a 52 or 54, so I am curious as to your recommendation.

Here are the numbers from my 54cm PR3 fit:
Pad X 622
Pad Y (back of pad). 483
Saddle 749
Tip of saddle to back of pad 521

I’m considering going with a 52cm, but concerned about going too small as I felt cramped on my first tri bike which was a QR Lucero Lite size M. I welcome your recommendation on the size frame I should consider.

Here are some pictures of me on my PR3. I had dropped the front end about 1 cm since those pictures were taken to get to the numbers I provided you. Thanks in advance for your help!

https://imgur.com/tme5l3Y

https://imgur.com/ybbfJEj

Crash-Davis, Sorry to hear about the schwacking, glad you're okay and ready to get back on the horse.
Great pics, great info - makes it easier.
For the PRsix... a Pad X of 483 and a Pad Y of 622 (I see that reversal, happens all the time) you'd have to do it on the 52. The prescription would be: PRsix size 52 with the 90mm stem, the stem/bar clamp in the low position (meaning, both clam shells on top of the basebar), 20mm of arm rest pedestal, the arm rest bracket set rearward and the arm rest mounted in the rear hole. You're thinking of maybe going longer and longer - you can do both with this set up: you can drop the pads 20mm by just removing the pedestal, and 25mm longer by just mounting pads in different holes or flipping the bracket forward or a combo of both. The lowest the 54 goes is 620.

For the PRfive it's the 52 as well but now with the 110 stem, no spacers under neath that stem and only .5mm arm rest riser, and then mount the pads offset -2.50 (meaning 1 hole fwd of center). With this set up you can only drop to 5mm lower but if you tilt the aerobar you can drop another 5-7mm, and you can stretch out another 22mm.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Hello Ian!

I'm hoping you can help me figure out a frame size for a PR5 OR PR6 from my fit measurements off of a 48cm 2010 Cervelo P3 built on 650c wheels with 170 cranks.

To note, I absolutely want to go with 700 wheels AND 165 cranks this time around. Prior to owning the 48cm P3, I was on a 2009 51cm P2, which also fit. I don't have fit coordinates for that and I can't remember why I went down to the 48cm (probably to get more drop since my inseam is a bit short). It was a tiny bike under me with those little wheels but it sure was a fun and fast ride! I used it for all distances from sprint through iron.

I am 5'5" tall
Cycling inseam 770mm

Arm pad reach: 430mm
Arm pad reach BB: 396mm
Arm pad stack BB: 580mm
Saddle height: 685mm
Saddle set back: -33mm
Arm pad drop: -87mm
Handlebar reach tip saddle to bar top: 471mm
Handlebar drop: -114mm
Handlebar reach BB to bar center: 438mm
Handlebar stack: 537mm
Frame stack (2010 48cm P3): 465mm
Frame reach (2010 48cm P3): 390mm

Saddle: ISM road (I hated that saddle and do not plan on using an ISM again - not sure if this matters)

Other bikes currently owned that fit well: 2020 52cm Tarmac Expert (I could def ride the 49 here as well but lots 'o drop) & a 2018 51cm Ruby Expert

Thank you so very much for your help! Please let me know if there is anything additional information I can provide.

Looking at getting a PR5 I'm just shy of 5'9", 31" inseam. Pad X is 487 and Pad Y is 622 on my current bike. What's your recomendation?

 

Shellabree,

If you get a PRsix... it's a 48 with a 90mm stem, the bar clamp in the "mid" position (meaning one half of the clam shell atop the base bar and one half below), 10mm of arm pad pedestal, the arm rest bracket set up in the forward position and the arm rest itself in the mid-front hole. That gives your exact Pad Stack (580) and exact Pad Reach (430).... and it gives you tons of room to take the cockpit longer or shorter and about 75mm of pad raise and pad drop. So you've got plenty of time to move in the future if you like.

If you get a PRfive...it's a 48 again but there are a couple of options on the front end config...
- 110stem, slammed, with only 5mm of pedestal and arm pads mounted 1 hold back of middle.
or
- 90mm stem, 10mm under stem and arm pads slammed, arm pads one hold forward of middle.
This both give you your numbers with a +- of 2mm.
There's not much difference in those too positions. I guess, for me a 90mm stem on a "48" bike makes more sense but it truly doesn't matter in this case.

BTW, I put "48" in quotes because QR sizing is VERY logical and therefore odd in terms of bike sizing. This is a 48 because the frame stack is 48cm not because the measurement from the center of the bottom bracket to the seat post collar or the top-tube/seat-tube or to some place in space if the top-tuber were level, etc. etc. It would be just as logical if this bike was called an Extra Small. At 5'5" you're not short but you ride pretty low with an arm pad elevation of almost 9cm so you need the smaller bike.

Get back to me here if you have questions.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Hi Ian! Thank you so very much for that information. A couple of additional questions:

1. So pad reach is measured using the measurement from the saddle tip to the rear of pad (430) and not the BB to rear of pad (396)? I always thought both stack/reach and pad stack/reach coordinates were measured from the BB. So a bit confused here.

2. If I went to 165 cranks on this, I'd still be OK with the 48cm? I know that saddle height would have to come up a bit (which would increase drop), but I'm really not sure I want any additional drop. I'm not getting any younger and would probably move towards less drop if I moved in a certain direction. LOL!

3. The fit coordinates taken from above were at a 77 degree seat tube angle. I always felt like I could ride a bit steeper of an angle than that and not close off the hip flexors so much. Heck my road bikes are set up at 77! With the 48cm bike, I'd still have room to move forward, correct?

Thanks again for your help on this! This is all very educational and education is power! I'm super excited about getting a new bike!

shellabree,
Good gravy, thank you for keep an eye out for my error - yes, let me redo this under the Pad X of 396 rather than 430. When I teach bike fitting I'm adamant about specific terms of art to reduce confusion. I much prefer "Cockpit Distance" to identify the nose of saddle to the back of pad over Pad Reach to help reduce the error I just made :)
For the PRsix - still 48, still bar clamp in mid position and 15mm of spacer but now the 75mm stem with bracket rearward and armrest hole mid front.
For the PRfive - still 48, still 90mm stem, slammed with 5mm of pedestal under the aerobar and pads mounted one hole back from the closest the pad will go.

Regarding crank length and drop.... yes to 165s but you'd be even better off on 155s (JCobb, Rotor). Regardless - for every mm you lift the saddle height to meet the new crank length you can raise the bars (on both the PRsix and PRfive). Your saddle height is currently 685 w/ 170 cranks. That changes to 690 w/ 165 cranks - to sustain the drop at 87 you'd just bring the bars up 5mm. On the PRfive you can either put a 5mm spacer under the stem or 5 more mm under the aerobar for a total of 10mm. For the PRsix you can either switch the bar clap to the high position (both clam shells under the base bar) or, my preference here, to go 20mm of arm pad pedestal. All this same, easy math can be done for 160 cranks, or 155 cranks too. AND there's room to move in the future if you want to reduce your pad drop from 87 to 82 or 77, etc.

Lastly, about seat angle - your body angle is the real issue and not so much where the seat is - and you've spoken to that with the mention of your hip flexor being shut off. The shorter cranks will help with that but you should probably be riding steeper. The saddle, its comfort, and where you sit on it is so critical. If you're at 77 degrees but the saddle is on the long side and you're perched way off the nose of it - okay, fine. But if the saddle's short and you're sitting in the middle of it (or, heaven forbid, at the rear) then there's no way this fit optimal. This then makes me think that if you move forward in terms of hip over bottom bracket then you're gonna want to move the arm pads and extensions forward and both bikes as prescribed here have lots of room to go forward.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Ian,

That was such awesome information! Thank you SO very much!

Super grateful!

crujones#33,

487 is pretty long, is this to the back of the pad or the middle of the pad? I'm gonna proceed as if it's to the back but be sure to get back to me if it's to the center.

For the PRfive..... the best bet is a 52 with a 90mm stem in the -17deg position. The stem should be slammed and with only 5mm of pedestal under the arm pad. Then push the pads 100% out as far as they will go. The result is 622/486. If you went with the same size bike (52) and the 110 stem (again slammed with 5mm of pedestal) and then you pick your arm pad hole to result in either 484 or 491. With the 110 stem you can still elongate or shorten the cockpit but with the 90mm stem you are maxed on cockpit distance.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Hi Ian,

I'm currently riding a 2013 CD01 Medium.
I'm a hair below of 5'9" and around 160lbs.

Measured by current bike's Pad X and Pad Y:
Pad X: 475
Pad Y: 665
Crank Arm: 165
ISM PN 3.1(if this matters)

I'm looking at getting a PRFive frameset (was originally thinking a size 52).
I have a Profile Deisgn Aris stem (90mm / +-7 deg) and a Profile Design Pro Svet base bar.
Thinking of eventually getting a TriRig Alpha or a 51Speedship Mono Riser.

But on to the frame for now. Is 52 the right size for me? Given the current cockpit that I have.

Thanks

Hi Ian,

My height is 180cm, (however one leg is 2ish cm shorter so I never know if that's my actual height or if when standing shoeless I drop off to my shorter side appearing shorter)
my inseam is 84cm,
my saddle height on my road bike is 793mm.
my saddle tip to hoods is 750mm. (if this helps)

Apologies for the lack of data!

Tommy

jeyps11_c,
Your Pad of 475 is exactly what I'd expect for you based on the info you provided. The Pad Y of 665 however is higher than expected - I'd think 620-630 far more logical and that's the number that's keeping you out of consideration of a 52.

If you had to live with these number (665 & 475) then the bike is a 54cm with a 90mm stem in the -17deg position, 20mm of spacer under that stem and 15mm of aerobar pedestal, and the pads mounted 1 hole forward of center.

If you have more questions please get back to me here.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Hi Ian,

addition I should have made to my original post, I currently use draft legal tri bars on my road bike for a tri position, and although the position is far from perfect (restrictions with draft legal etc.), if it may help gain a picture of where I am as well as the aforementioned height, inseam, saddle height etc I thought I should add it here.

cheers,
Tommy

Tommy,
Let me just check in on two things...1) you're 180cm tall, your inseam is 84cm, and your saddle height is 793? This is a moderately unusual combination of numbers and I want to confirm before I proceed. 2) You are looking to acquire a Quintana Roo Tri Bike - are you thinking a PRsix or a PRfour/PRfive?

I'll get back to you quickly.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Hi Ian,

Thanks for your response!
I’m definitely 180 (give or take 1cm) tall,
And my saddle height from centre of bottom bracket to top of middle of saddle on my road bike is definitely 793mm. My inseam will be the least accurate of these but I just measured it again at 85cm... I’ve always considered my body to be oddly proportioned!

   

TommyBTri,

Okay, no worries, you have long legs, that 's fine, I can work with that .... I think your real triathlon position should exist around the Pad Y around 635 and your Pad X is roughly 480. I say "real" triathlon position because you're basically on a road bike now with DL aerobars and your non-draft position will be very different from where you are now.

Quintana Roo PRsix size 52 with a 90mm stem, the base bar held with mid clamp (this refers to 2 halves of a clam shell within the stem, put one atop the base bar and one below), 25mm of arm pad pedestal, and the arm pad bracket set rearward and the arm pad itself mounted in the rearward hole.

Don't freak out about the "size 52" the sizing makes way more sense than any of us can imagine (the frame stack is 52cm - so logical). With this prescription you can go lower 25mm or higher 55mm with just change in pedestal. Also, you can go 60mm shorter or 2mm longer with this 90mm stem by simply flipping the bracket and using different arm pad screw holes.

You can make 635/480 work on the 54 too but no much room to drop. It can work on the 50 as well but you're nearly painted into a corner on that bike too - the 52 is the choice.

Get back to me here with questions, Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Ooh sorry forgot to say PR6 was what I was looking at, think crossed threads here?

Holy Mother of God !! May we please never speak of this error! see my edited post. And to add more obfuscation on this to enhance the cover up I'll just stay that "crossing threads" is terrible and that's why I keep a few common sized taps and dies on hand to clean them up ;)

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Thanks Ian!

Hi Ian

Thanks for the time and energy helping

My fit coordinates

Stack 61.5
Reach 42
Saddle height 75 (160mm cranks)
Saddle setback 7.5

If possible would like handlebar stack to around 56 and reach around 74

Thanks

Iverma,
I want to make certain that I'm guiding you towards the right bike and to that I end I need to clarify a few things.
1) Stack and Reach are terms that measure to the top of the head tube on bike frame. I think you mean Pad Y (could, if we had to, be called Pad Stack but let's reduce confusion so.. Pad Y) and Pad X (could, if we were forced to.. with a gun to our head call it Pad Reach but we're not yet living in that society so...Pad X). Please confirm.
2) Are these numbers taken off of an existing tri bike upon which you feel comfortable, feel powerful, feel aero or some other set up or some other feeling?
3) What type of saddle is setback 75mm and are you sitting on the back of it, middle of it or nose of it?
4) Do you want me to prescribe the PRsix (super bike) or PRfive/four (mortal bike) or both?

Let me know, I'll get back to you here right away.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Hi Ian

Yes I should have clarified, the coordinates are back of Pad X/Y and yes they are taken of a current set-up.
The saddle is a Fizik Mystica and I sit generally in the middle.

Looking at PRSix .

Thanks!

LV

I would think that you would want to be sitting on the front of a Mistica saddle.

LV,

Okay, great here we go...for a QR PRsix with a Pad Y of 615 and Pad X of 420...

I think the 48 is a best bet, more range to adjust up/down/fore/aft if need be in the future.

Size 48, 90mm stem with the stem bar clamp in the mid position (it's a clam shell... so for the "mid" put one half atop the base bar and the other half below). 45mm of arm pad pedestal, place the arm pad bracket in the rearward position and use the middle arm pad hole.

48 sounds like a tiny bike but that's not really an accurate assessment. QR uses the stack of the frame to define the size which is crazy smart. If you simply had to go with a size 50 here's the script: 110 stem with the stem bar clamp in the mid position, place the arm pad bracket in the rearward position and use the front arm pad hole. You can fit on a 52 as well but you'll be painted into a pretty extreme corner with little room to move.

Get back to me if you have more questions.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Ian

The 48 rec is a bit of a surprise as I was thinking. between a 50-52, so I will have to try it out .

Why do you rec a longer stem with the 50 and a shorter with the 48?

LV

LV,
Some super bikes were made with just one stem, some with just two stems - QR made three, which is nice. It gives options. If you're okay with 5mm variance plus or minus in reach - I okay with that, many can put up with that because elbows slight off the pad or slightly towards the center of the pad and that range can be as much as 6-7mm. Anyway, if you can deal with 5mm then there's several ways to get a 50 to fit you - to the point of redundancy. Here are 3 of I think 7 ways you can build it.
1) The one I prescribed above: 110 stem with the stem bar clamp in the mid position, place the arm pad bracket in the rearward position and use the front arm pad hole
2) 90mm stem with the clamp in the low position, bracket rearward, arm pad in hole "mid-front" and 35mm of pedestal (this give you Pad Y of 615 Pad X 42.5
3) 75mm stem, mid clamp, bracket rearward, arm rest hole middle, 25mm pedestal
I like the 110 stem as it that combined with the pad position would optimize the stability of the set up - but the 90mm would be great too, I'm sure.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Hi ian,

After consulting with my fitter and also QR, I got myself a 52 PRSix.

I am currently using a Pro Svet on my CD01 and I was wondering if you have any suggestions on the base bar to use?
Do I keep my existing Pro Svet or change to something else? If I change it, what would be a good alternative that works with a 52 PRSix?

Jeyps11_c,
There are a few things to consider here. I'm just gonna lay 'em out and you can marinate on the ones that matter to you...
1) Them bar clamp on that stem is 31.8 so there are no limits on your options as that's a standard size.
2) The ProSvet is a "winged" bar, not round so you can't really rotate the hand position for perfection without effecting how the wide, flat bit gets into the wind. If your hand position needed changing for greater comfort you'd consider a round bar.
3) The ProSvet kinda shoulders off and by that I mean the hand grip area sits lower (below) the center of the bar clamp (23mm). So if you're using a lot of arm pad pedestal (like 30+) then braking position sits even lower than that due to that fall-away of the bar. Euro pro roadies don't care about the elevation difference between their arm pads and their "pursuit" position but triathletes seem to do better when their arm pads and their braking position are not so far apart.
4) The ProSvet adds some reach to the position but not a tone: center of clamp to tip of pursuit is 153mm and it can't be cut down due to curve in grip. Something to consider if you wanted that position longer or shorter and you were looking for a new base bar to help in that.
5) Color - I've only seen the ProSvet in white and for those trying to get all stealthy, that might be an issue.
6) Money - base bars can run from $100 to $300+ If you like your current bar I'd rather you get several massages.
7) Carbon vs Aluminum - I'm not a huge fan of clamping carbon and your base bar will be clamped in three places. Carbon base bars are typically lighter than their alum brethren if that matters to you.

Hope this helps, Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Hi Ian,

Thank you for doing this.

I've been on a road bike my whole life and have finally decided on acting upon my Ironman ambition. I've only done a bike fit once, and it was AFTER I bought the bike, unfortunately. It is a small-sized Giant Propel Advanced 2 (2016). I was wondering if it would be necessary to see a fitter again before deciding on a size this time, or if you will be able to help me out here. I have an accompanying fit report for the Propel and was wondering if you would be able to derive a reasonable conclusion from it.

My height is 175cm. No idea what my inseam measurement is. Apologies.

Thanks very much!


Best regards,
Caleb

Thank you so much for your amazing work, Ian! I was hoping for a Quintana Roo recommendation, though!

Unfortunately, I do not live in the U.S, but in Singapore. Would you like to take a look at some of the photos taken at different riding positions, with angles labelled? Will that be helpful?

What is your take on a Retul 3D bike fit, as compared to one using the bikefitting.com system? Trying to find out which fitter I should go to. The one using the Retul is exorbitantly expensive!

Caleb,

Sorry for the mix up. Here we go...
I think you're Pad Y is around 615 and your Pad X is roughly 420.

If you wanted the QR PRsix, the superbike, the size would be the 48, with the 90mm stem set up with the "mid" clamp (the stem has 2 clam shell pieces and you would position one half on top of the base bar and the other on the bottom of the base bar). Then use 45mm of pedestal and install the arm bracket rearward and mount the arm rest hole in the middle. This is great is great because you still have so much room to move: up 40mm, down 55mm, out 55mm or in 30mm.

If you wanted the QR PRfive (or four) the best size would the 50cm bike with 90mm stem in the -17 degree position, 20mm of spacer under the stem and 5mm of pedestal. Then arm rest mounted dead center. Still lots of room to move longer/lower/short/longer.

Get back to me with questions, Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Caleb,

One more thing... you cannot judge a bike fit by the brand. Dan Empfield, the owner of this site and a true leader in bike fit has a great quote that I have altered over time: "no one comes to the office on Monday saying 'I went to the best Fender guitar concert last night' they say 'I heard Mark Knopfler play last night and he's amazing". This is to say - the artist is the element that matters not the brand or the tooling. Call 'em all ask lots of questions about how many tri fits they do a month and then speak to people who've been fit there and listen to their experience.

Ian

---

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Please offer QR PR4 disc size for


Pad Stack: 750
Pad Reach: 500

Thanks

nmurray,
I think it polite of me to answer questions as asked so let me start there: the right QR PRfour for Pad Y of 750 and Pad X of 500 is a 58.5 with a 90mm stem positioned as +17 with 20mm of spacer under the stem and the pads all the way forward. The result is 751x499. Bam! That's pretty close! There's some room to move in this prescription with this stem you can go up to 760 or down as low as 732. You can also come back as much as 428 but you can't go much longer (unless you switch to a 110 stem - and it's a mortal bike so that switch is quick and easy).

Now, I hope you'll let me expand on this..... A Pad Y of 750 is a big number and, perhaps, justified....but, I also worry that this number came from a misleading place... like a road bike with cilp-ons or a fitting that was done on some saddle that didn't allow our pelvis to rotate forward or something else. If you care to expand on this - I'm here for you and we can talk it through. I'm eager and happy to help.

Ian

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Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

So I'm 6'4" and more legs than torso. I just got a dynamic fitting. Seemed to go well - came to a position that felt good and the fitter was happy with. Provided those pad stack and pad reach numbers. Also gave me stack 594 and reach 414 as "standard frame geometry."

As I looked over the results, my pad stack and pad reach seemed an outlier to me based on looking at the various fit graphs of slowtwich users and pro's I've seen on the site (I do recognize that this is a subset of a subset of tri riders). Plus the fitter said I wouldn't be able to fit most of the bikes I was interested in - including not fitting on a QR.

More advise would be appreciated.

nmurray,

well.... a leggy 6'4".... that explains a lot. You're gonna have a taller Pad Y than most and when seeking out the bikes that meet you at that metric. The QR will do it though in both the PRfour and PRfive as prescribed above. The 58.5 is the right bike and with that 90mm stem you will hit your numbers beautifully. My response had hesitation only because I didn't know how you came to those numbers but with a fitting done and one you feel good about - go forward with confidence.

Ian

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Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

In light of the email I got today from Slowman regarding the QR sale and my first IM scheduled for next year, I’m in the market for a tri bike.

I think the PR5-105 looks perfect. My problem is a fit - I’ve been trying for the last 4 months to get fitted, but between covid and scheduling issues, I haven’t been able to get in at my local FIST fitter.

I’m about 5’10.5, 175. 31” inseam. Ride a 56 Allez Sprint very comfortably. Looks like I’m in between a 52 and 54 per the QR website.

Any advice on which size? Or am I better off really waiting until I can finally get a fit and hope to find a good price (and bike?) in a couple months?

AB2814,
No doubt! Now is an excellent time to buy.
I think you're Pad Y is in the neighborhood of 622 and your Pad X is around 480. For the PRfive the bike is a 52 with a 110 stem set in the -17deg position, slammed and 5mm under the aerobars. If you mount the arm cups one hole closer to you from center you'll have a Pad X of 476 and if you go to two holes closer than center you're at 484. With this bike and this stem you've got some room to move. If the Y of 622 is too low you can go up incrementally as much as 40mm. And you can go out 20mm or back 50mm to find the perfect cockpit distance.

You can make Pad X of 480 work on the 54 but the lowest that bike'll go is 636 and I just think you can ride comfortably if you're down in the 620 range - especially if you run a 165 crank which you should try and get them to install before they ship.

Get back to me here with questions if/when you have 'em.

Ian

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Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Thanks a ton - now the hard part.... trying to decide which color scheme I like the best...

Blue! Blue! Blue! Blue!

I really like blue.

Hi Ian,

I am considering purchasing a PRSIX2 Disc and would love to get some feedback from you on sizing/fit. I currently ride a 54cm Cannondale Slice, I am 5'7" tall, more legs than torso. I have a 30 inch inseam. My pad X is 395mm and pad Y is 620mm, my saddle height is 735mm.Thanks for your assistance! Kim Ruble

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Kim Ruble

Kim,
All perfect info, thank you!
For a Quintana Roo PRsix2... your position can happen on two different sizes, the 48 and the 50. I'm gonna detail both so you have all the info you need and I'd like to share my opinion.

Size 48 with the 75mm stem, the base bar clamped in the high position (this just puts the two clam shell pieces under the base bar in the clamp) + 40mm of pedestal. The arm cup bracket will need to be mounted rearward and then the arm cup itself will be mounted in the mid-front hole. All this yields a Pad Y of 620 and a Pad X of 390. If you move the arm cup to mount in the middle then it's 405.

Size 50 with the 75mm stem, the base bar clamped in the high position + 20mm of pedestal. The arm cup bracket will need to be mounted rearward and the arm cup screwed in using the mid-front hole. The result is Pad Y of 620 and Pad X of 400

Now for the Op-ed: If you had just written in with your height, inseam, seat height... I would have suspected your Pad Y to be 605 (so we're very close there) and your Pad X to be much longer at 430ish. There could be many reason why we have disparity. My initial thoughts would about the saddle - where it's mounted on the rails (it's back, I'd like is slid forward). It could be where you're sitting on that saddle (you're back, I'd like you forward). It could be comfort of that saddle (your back for comfort, we need a saddle that allows you to sit near or on the nose of it and be comfy there). It could be about crank length (you're on something longer than 160 and I want them to be 160 or 155). My point of this is if you move into a position that I suspect would be better (more comfort or the same comfort - and/or more power or the same power - and/or slipperier through the wind) both of these bikes will allow you to progress your numbers in the direction I'm thinkin with all the same hardware.

Get back to me where with questions or comments.

Ian

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Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Ian,

Wow, you know your stuff! Yes, my saddle is back just about as far as it can go. I will have to experiment with a more forward position. Unless, I did my Pad x measurement wrong, how does being more forward change the pad x? I used the BB to center of arm pad horizontally for my 395. Changing the seat doesn't change this, no? My nose to extension is 760mm, that number would definitely change. I tried to include a photo of me on the bike, but can't get the resolution low enough to include it.

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Kim Ruble

 

Kim,
Sorry about the duplicated sentence in quotes up there... there must be something wrong with the editing software on the site :)

Okay, this is GREAT!!! When (not if, but when) you slide your saddle forward on the rails it'll take your whole body position forward on the bike. So the entire front end will need to move forward- the arm pads will need to go forward, the aerobars will need to go forward. There's one thing you could do to your current bike that will move everything all at once and that would be a longer stem. You're riding a 54...it's a mortal bike.. stems are aplenty and pretty inexpensive for that bike - if you move your seat forward, put on a stem that was 20mm loner and then tweaked the pads/extension out a bit you'd probably find the position I'm talking about. AND THERE'S ANOTHER THING...when you move forward like we're talking about you can very often go lower at the same time and still be comfortable (always top priority to me), still be powerful (maybe even more), and you'll be out of the wind a bit more.

All of this is just chatter about altering the position on your current bike - you're clearly ready for a new bike so don't put too much time and effort into changing this position - rather - order the new QR as prescribed in previous post. Set the seat height at 735, position the saddle farther forward that were you have it now and then move the pads and aero extensions farther out by 20mm minimum and maybe a bit more. The prescription I wrote will make this easy, the bike will go there - it'll just be a matter of screwing the arm cups in a more forward hole, sliding the extensions out a bit.

Lastly, QR has shown the ability to install cranks of the length you want when ordering. Ask for 155s. If they balk then get 160s - if you have to settle at 165s okay but nothing longer.

Ian

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Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Hi Ian...

I just had a fitting done. I was hoping to get a sense of the ideal QR tri bike type and size

Stack: 574mm from BB to head tube top
Reach: 450 from BB to back of pad
Saddle height 771 mm
Seat Tube angle 79 deg

180 cm tall
inseam about 84 cm.

I have a pile of other extraneous numbers, so let me know if you need anything else

thanks!!
HS

HS,
The critical numbers for me (or anyone really) to prescribe a bike is Pad X (Pad Reach) and you've given that here with 450mm to the back of the pad. I'd like Pad Y (aka Pad Stack) and I'm betting that number is in the neighborhood of 635-660. It's measured from the BB to the top of the pad.

If you can get me that I'll get back to you right away.

Ian

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Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Hi Ian,

It comes in at a 648 on my current bike, which I'm very comfortable with.
Thanks for getting back to me, I really appreciate it.

HS

 

HS,
If you went with the QR PRsix (the super bike) your position could be achieved on several sizes but the 52 is the best. On the 52 you'd use a 90mm stem and the base bar captured in "mid clamp" (it's a clam shell, this means one half atop the base bar, one half below). 35mm of arm pad pedestal, the arm bracket oriented rearward and the arm cup mounted in the middle. This would put the pads at 645-450, if you preferred 650-450 then you'd do 40mm of pedestal rather than 35. With this size bike and hardware (90mm stem) you'd have room to move up-down-fore-aft quite a bit to find you're ultimate spot.

If you wanted the QR PRfive or four (the mortal bikes) the 'script would be...I like the 54cm bike better on this one: 90mm stem set in the -17deg position, 10mm of spacer under the stem and 5mm of pedestal. Then the arm cups mounted one hole closer to you than center. The result of that is 647-453 and you have lots of room to tweak up-down-fore-aft to find the perfect spot.

On it's face a 52/54 sounds a bit odd for someone your height but the method that QR uses to measure their bikes (the exact Stack of the frame) is the smartest, it just feels weird. If they called the 54 a "medium" and a 52 the "sm-med" we'd all be good with it in a sec.

Get back to me here if you have more questions.

Ian

PS. QR's pretty good about swapping out bits so take the order opportunity to get the crank length you want/need (165 max)

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Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan