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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [LastMile] [ In reply to ]
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no clockwise,
if trainerroad is displaying power from the kickr and is showing higher than what your quarq is reading then you need to tighten the belt with the procedure described on the first page.
with about 2 turns tightened after 24sec spindown my kickr is now reading 3-6w lower than my quarq which I can live with.

LastMile wrote:
My Kickr is reading high by 15 watts compared to my Quarq Elsa RS. E.g. Garmin synced to the Quarq gives 310 watts, TrainerRoad controlling the Kickr shows 325 watts at the same time. I take it from the above instructions that I want to turn the 2.5mm screw counter-clockwise to lower the Kickr reading compared to the Quarq?

I'm looking forward to the public release of the firmware update, but I'd also like my Kickr to give a reasonably consistent readout compared to my Quarq so I can ride a non-Quarq bike if need be and get the same workout and consistent power readouts.

I might wait until Tour of Sufflerlandria is over and play with the belt tension a bit and see what results I get.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [lennyk] [ In reply to ]
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Gave software version .26 a try for the first time tonight on my Vector/Kickr/TR setup.

Used the Ebbetts workout. TSS and IF matched exactly with those prescribed by TR at the end of the workout. Tracking was very good, the only place it struggled was the 5 second high wattage sprints during the sweet spot intervals. No surprises there, would expect a feedback loop to struggle with keeping up with short very high intensity efforts. Overall, good so far.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Jon208] [ In reply to ]
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how are we updating our firmware? Mine never asks me to and always says I have the current version.

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [ericM40-44] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe I am missing something here but no matter what the Kickr and the Stages or the Vector or whatever PM you might have shows in terms of watt there will practically always be a discrepancy between them.

Hence, if you are in possession of a PM which you are intending to use for your racing (and outdoors training) why wouldn't you always make sure that the watts that you are reading on your Garmin are the watts that you are producing on your PM.

I think what I am trying to say is that it is somewhat irrelevant for people with a PM AND a Kickr that they read differently as long as the Kickr is ultimately controlled by the PM. Hence, as soon as the app is released it should be standard to control the Kickr with and external PM, right?

This should not be a sensitive issue for Wahoo as it is perfectly normal to have any given PM to read different (aside from drifting issues, if applicable)

Million dollar question is: When is this app released?
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Financier] [ In reply to ]
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Financier wrote:
I think what I am trying to say is that it is somewhat irrelevant for people with a PM AND a Kickr that they read differently as long as the Kickr is ultimately controlled by the PM. Hence, as soon as the app is released it should be standard to control the Kickr with and external PM, right?

Million dollar question is: When is this app released?

Yes if you posess both a PM and Kickr the Kickr should be controlled by the PM. Why this capability and other key ones (like temperature compensation) have been missing seems to be the issue. It wouldn't be a big deal if we weren't seeing huge drifts and discrepancies between the PM and Kickr. So yes the very under communicated fix/app they are to be releasing should solve the problem. And for those without PMs or multiple bikes it would be nice to know that the Kickr was maintaining the power levels specified in the training software (when not being controlled by a PM).

--------------------------------------------------
Non-Swimming Duathlete
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Financier] [ In reply to ]
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Financier wrote:
Maybe I am missing something here but no matter what the Kickr and the Stages or the Vector or whatever PM you might have shows in terms of watt there will practically always be a discrepancy between them.

Hence, if you are in possession of a PM which you are intending to use for your racing (and outdoors training) why wouldn't you always make sure that the watts that you are reading on your Garmin are the watts that you are producing on your PM.

I think what I am trying to say is that it is somewhat irrelevant for people with a PM AND a Kickr that they read differently as long as the Kickr is ultimately controlled by the PM. Hence, as soon as the app is released it should be standard to control the Kickr with and external PM, right?

This should not be a sensitive issue for Wahoo as it is perfectly normal to have any given PM to read different (aside from drifting issues, if applicable)

Million dollar question is: When is this app released?

I think the issue is that for a $1000.00 piece of equipment... the power numbers should be closer than 30 watts difference. I just bought a 10 speed SRM to use on my trainer bike to insure the watts I THINK I am doing are actually the watts I AM DOING. I also splurged for a 20kg calibrated weight to make sure my SRM slope is properly calibrated. I also have the KICKR calibration kit to make sure that is calibrated properly.

I spoke to Wahoo yesterday and asked specifically when the Wahooligan will be ready... they couldn't say for sure, but put me on a notifications list.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Donzo98] [ In reply to ]
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How did you get the calibration Kit? Can I borrow it?

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [ericM40-44] [ In reply to ]
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ericM40-44 wrote:
How did you get the calibration Kit? Can I borrow it?

I bought it... you can most certainly borrow it.

Sent you a PM.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [gabbiev] [ In reply to ]
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Making matters worse is that Wahoo service has gone in the toilet. It's taking them many days to respond to inquiries (my experience).
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Max Daddy] [ In reply to ]
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Thought I'd give an update of my experience after quite a few TR rides on the .26 beta. I'm using a pair or Vectors as the PM and TR to drive the workout.

Mostly I'm seeing reasonable results. Actual (Vector) power mostly tracks closely with the target power but can go through phases of being either too low or too high. I've found it struggles a bit with ramps such as those found in Keeler Needle, I suppose this is unsurprising as it will take a while for the feedback loop to adjust. Despite all this TSS at the end of a workout is always very close to the target value.

Three times it has completely dropped the ball and turned into a mid workout disaster, but I suppose this is to be expected of beta software.

How are othe unofficial beta testers getting on?
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Max Daddy] [ In reply to ]
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same experience here ...
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Jon208] [ In reply to ]
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Question for those that downloaded the .26 beta update. Did you download it before or after Wahoo pulled it?

I downloaded the .26 update for mine and it's still reading the way off (25w-35w) like it was before the update even though my firmware on the kickr reads v1.3.26. Last night i did intervals of 4x10mins at 95% and had to adjust the Kickr to 115% in order to get the watts I needed. The good thing is I have little to no power drift after the first 10-15mins

After speaking with Wahoo today they have zero calibration kits in stock but did say that the firmware is due to be released "right around the corner" as per the Wahoo tech.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [yatyas] [ In reply to ]
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I have an SRM and it does not work with .26. The Kickr still reads about 14 watts below the SRM. There is no evidence that the SRM is controlling the Kickr
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [ccassidy] [ In reply to ]
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I left that detail out of my previous post.

I also have an SRM and would probably explain why i haven't noticed any difference.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [yatyas] [ In reply to ]
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Yes I got .26 and importantly the Wahooligan app before the app vanished. As far as I am aware having the software alone is not enough. You also need the Wahooloigan app and the password to activate the feature/pair the Kickr with your PM.

It'd be really nice if Wahoo could come on here and give us some sort of a progress update.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Jon208] [ In reply to ]
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Jon208 wrote:
Thought I'd give an update of my experience after quite a few TR rides on the .26 beta. I'm using a pair or Vectors as the PM and TR to drive the workout.

Mostly I'm seeing reasonable results. Actual (Vector) power mostly tracks closely with the target power but can go through phases of being either too low or too high. I've found it struggles a bit with ramps such as those found in Keeler Needle, I suppose this is unsurprising as it will take a while for the feedback loop to adjust. Despite all this TSS at the end of a workout is always very close to the target value.

Three times it has completely dropped the ball and turned into a mid workout disaster, but I suppose this is to be expected of beta software.

How are othe unofficial beta testers getting on?

It is mostly working for me. It varies with different TR workouts, so I'm starting to question whether there's some elemts to how the particular TR workout was created that affects behavior. For instance, on Pettit, the first segment has the Kickr reading higher than the Quarq (i.e., as if the Quarq is not controlling it), but the next two segments are spot on. This behavior is consistent on that particular workout. Interestingly, the discrepancy also returns if I got over around 110 rpm.

Other workouts behave differently, but consistently unto themselves. That's why I'm thinking there's a subtlety to TR's control of the erg that I'm not aware of.

Ian
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Jon208] [ In reply to ]
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I have the same set-up. Wahooligan app, .26, and Vectors. Knock on everything it has been working fantastic with TR.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [cwool] [ In reply to ]
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I have been following this thread very closely, I'm on my 2nd Kickr and unfortunately, after a test ride last night, I'm still suffering from out of whack numbers.

Short version of story -

Got Kickr around October of 2014. Fired it up, rode a couple easy Zone 2 rides on it to get the hang of it and make sure app/connections were good. I went right to ERG mode and was cruising around 230w. Felt a little soft, but figured maybe I was used to the herky jerky feeling of a typical fluid trainer, where your numbers aren't exactly smooth by any means. My absolute giveaway was that my heart rate was well under, probably about 20 beats. Thought that was odd.

Tried increasing my ERG number, finally had to settle in around 300w to get the same heart rate range/perceived feeling as my powertap/kk setup.

To confirm again, I did a threshold workout, and tried setting my ERG to 320w. My heart rate was barely scraping 141 at max. That's how I knew it was way off.

I went through countless emails with their support, calibrated, uninstalled/reinstalled, paired, tried 4 different devices to control it, etc. Nothing helped.

Due to Wahoo's slowing support, I grew frustrated and for one of the very few times in my life, returned the item because I was tired of dealing with it. Got a refund.

Went back to the KK with Powertap. Everything was back to feeling how it should to me when I worked out. I couldn't give up on this ERG mode option though, it's that important to me to be able to set it and pedal, rather than constantly be watching my average power, making sure I'm not drifting, etc. I took the full refund that I had set aside, and bought another, from another shop. No loss really financially, I already saved up and spent the money once.

Got the new one, it was in a totally different box (mostly blue, the other one was mostly white), and inside, the new Kickr has a power dongle that sticks out off of the frame, the old one was more or less just a port to plug the power into, so the new one was easier to plug in. I was excited, figured I had a new one and all of the kinks were worked out.

Did a spindown, and fired it up. Felt okay for about 2 minutes, then went right back to feeling soft. Let it get super warmed up, then did another spindown. Same thing. Feels soft. Did a workout on it, 2 x 25 @320 watts, and heart rate is about 140 the whole time. The only thing that got my heart rate up was thinking about how much this ticks me off.

Shower up, hit the internet, and find this thread, along with a few others filled with stories just like this. Unfortunately, the Wahooligan app seems to have vanished. I'm assuming this is because they are done beta testing and are going to release it, but this is an assumption.

What I did manage to do was put on Beta firmware .26 last night, but this was after my workout and wasn't about to fire up another ride at 9pm. I'm anxiously awaiting to go home and do this again, but having not had the chance to calibrate the unit with another power meter, I'm not expecting much.

If anyone wants to get my hopes up more and say that they only updated the firmware and had good results, I'd be happy to read that. What I'm desperately hoping for is that I'm able to get accurate TSS numbers so I don't end up with 1200 TSS points for a week that is normally 500, thus skewing all of my data without my manipulating it.

Will be following this thread until we're fixed, and I will post back what successes I have with just a firmware update.

Thanks all,

10k
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [10kman] [ In reply to ]
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10kman wrote:

What I did manage to do was put on Beta firmware .26 last night, but this was after my workout and wasn't about to fire up another ride at 9pm. I'm anxiously awaiting to go home and do this again, but having not had the chance to calibrate the unit with another power meter, I'm not expecting much.

If anyone wants to get my hopes up more and say that they only updated the firmware and had good results, I'd be happy to read that. What I'm desperately hoping for is that I'm able to get accurate TSS numbers so I don't end up with 1200 TSS points for a week that is normally 500, thus skewing all of my data without my manipulating it.

TBH, I don't think you're going to benefit much from the new firmware - the power meter as it currently stands just doesn't appear to be accurate enough to do the job. I'm desperately waiting for an update that uses external (accurate, temperature compensated, well proven) power meters (eg vector, quarq, SRM, stages etc).
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [ In reply to ]
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I am still getting good results with the Wahooligan and Firmware .26. Just to be cautious I am still recording the Quarq to the Edge, but I now feel confident to use the Quarq / TrainerRoad data as my WKO log as well. What I see on the Edge display compared to the TrainerRoad display I would have guessed that totals would be off at the end of a workout, but the NP, AP, TSS/d are all just about on the money. The raw Quarq data on the Edge shows its variability typically higher than what is displayed on the TR laptop display, but now that I see the totals being near equal I am content.

Going by perceived effort the intervals certainly feel (difficult) like they should feel for a given intensity and duration. My CTL sure isn't rising as fast as it did when I was using the Kickr's power.
Delusion of Grandeur busted, reality sinks back in. :-)
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Felt_Rider] [ In reply to ]
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Felt_Rider wrote:
I am still getting good results with the Wahooligan and Firmware .26. Just to be cautious I am still recording the Quarq to the Edge, but I now feel confident to use the Quarq / TrainerRoad data as my WKO log as well. What I see on the Edge display compared to the TrainerRoad display I would have guessed that totals would be off at the end of a workout, but the NP, AP, TSS/d are all just about on the money. The raw Quarq data on the Edge shows its variability typically higher than what is displayed on the TR laptop display, but now that I see the totals being near equal I am content.

Going by perceived effort the intervals certainly feel (difficult) like they should feel for a given intensity and duration. My CTL sure isn't rising as fast as it did when I was using the Kickr's power.
Delusion of Grandeur busted, reality sinks back in. :-)

I am also seeing good results on .26 with the Wahooligan app, (again you don't need the IOS device or App once you tell the KICKR what PM ID to use - set it and forget it). The only thing I notice is that sometimes it takes 20-30 seconds for the KICKR to sync with the Vectors, and during some intervals the numbers are 100% on, but the totals almost always bang on the money. For example I did revolver @ 95% on TR last night and TR called for power at 372, once the KICKR ramped up my Edge was displaying 3s power at and around 390, when I look at the data after the fact on TR and Edg510, the AVG interval Power is within a watt or 2 to 372 on both TR and the Edge 510..
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [marting] [ In reply to ]
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I forgot to mention too, I did all of the Wahoo troubleshooting tips including belt tightening, cleaning the speed sensor, etc. etc.

I did ask them to define "tight" for me regarding the belt, and they never answered that one for me. Did anyone else get a good idea of what tight means for that item? I didn't do anything ridiculous, it was snug, but I didn't think it was slipping in the first place either, so picked a happy medium from where it was originally (maybe a half turn of the adjustment screw).

I'm mildly bummed that I'll have to run another 1000 dollar power meter with this ONE power meter to get accurate data. I'm fortunate to have another to use for the task if that app ever gets released, but it's really a deal breaker.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [10kman] [ In reply to ]
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I'm happy this works - BUT

i never seem to have to open or use the Wahooligan App after initial sync with PM.

do get the odd interval that's over/under by a few watts. Seems to be harder as session gets near end. :-)

But yeh.......I bought a Kickr so i wouldn't have to use my freaking PM on trainer bike. I could live with the watts +/- offset but the drift was making me mental.

i use Imobile App when using phone and PerfPro as well. Both work well
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [gormleyflyer] [ In reply to ]
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I think we are all getting a bad deal with this, in the UK we have a body called Trading Standards its all to do with consumer protection, I am going to contact them tomorrow to see where we stand regarding all of these issues. Basically most of us have spent a whole load of money on a product that does not do what its advertised to do, and what we as cyclists expect and want it to do. I personally have spent a lot of money on a trainer that does not work, when I use T/R not only is the power 20 ish % out I get consistent lower and higher power spikes, along with zero wattage for periods of time, when I use the wahoo app I need too pedal what feels like a sprint from Cavendish to reach the speed to perform the spin down calibration, all in all this trainer has to many problems and is not fit for sale. Why should I need to use this trainer along side a power metre that might cost more than I spent on the trainer to make it work properly !!
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