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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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dcrainmaker wrote:
mcmetal wrote:
First of all, it's only the first 12 minutes. I've never had any significant drift (more than a difference of 5) after I calibrated any of my CTs at 12 minutes. Secondly, the kicker doesn't use a tire contact. Of course a tire will warm up and change the calibration. The kicker without a tire should be comparable to a Velotron. Now on my Velotron, I get 0 drift from minute 1 to however long I'm on my workout. So I would turn this question back at you and ask, why should the kicker have any drift at all EVER, when it doesn't use a tire based contact point? The Velotron doesn't.


It's not the first 12 minutes (on CT). I used to think I'd be good after about 10-15, but I've seen/have pretty of files where it's taking more like 15-20 minutes to stabilize fully.

As for the KICKR and warm-up, I don't know - that's a question for Wahoo. I've said since my original review I always calibrate about 10-20 mins in on it.

Just some thoughts

My KICKR reads about 13 watts less than my Vectors at 300 watts without any warmup (I do leave mine plugged in all the time), at the end of an hour it might read 18 watts lower than my Vectors so a 5 watt drift. (I know use the Beta firmware and it works perfectly - just some background info)

My Question - do people seeing this LARGE drift what gear ratio are you using? I always use 39X21, this keeps my chain running pretty straight, but more importantly it makes the system run slower (IE the flywheel or belt or whatever internals are in the KICKR) than the 53X12,13,14,21 XX. I believe using a climbing gear ie 39X21 you will have less drift and a more responsive KICKR and could even possibly extend the life of the KICKR.

I have no proof what so ever of the above, just some food for thought, sure my avg speed at 300watts for an hour might only be 21KPH but who the hell cares. If your using speed as a metric on your trainer you're doing it wrong anyways.

I've worked with 6 KICKRS and none have had this drift issue (Sure some are +-10 watts compared to my Vectors at 300 watts) but don't seem to be having the major issues reported here.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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dcrainmaker wrote:
mcmetal wrote:
First of all, it's only the first 12 minutes. I've never had any significant drift (more than a difference of 5) after I calibrated any of my CTs at 12 minutes. Secondly, the kicker doesn't use a tire contact. Of course a tire will warm up and change the calibration. The kicker without a tire should be comparable to a Velotron. Now on my Velotron, I get 0 drift from minute 1 to however long I'm on my workout. So I would turn this question back at you and ask, why should the kicker have any drift at all EVER, when it doesn't use a tire based contact point? The Velotron doesn't.


It's not the first 12 minutes (on CT). I used to think I'd be good after about 10-15, but I've seen/have pretty of files where it's taking more like 15-20 minutes to stabilize fully.

As for the KICKR and warm-up, I don't know - that's a question for Wahoo. I've said since my original review I always calibrate about 10-20 mins in on it.

It probably depends on the tires you use. I only use my CT with Zwift now, but I always had stable calibrations after 9-10 minutes. I'd recalibrate every 5 minutes during my 20 minute warmup and it would only vary by 1 or 2 between the 10 minute mark and the 20 minute point.

Conceptually, I like the Kicker. Eliminate the tire (and wires) and (theoretically) eliminate the need for calibration at a reasonable price.

All I can say is I really do like the Velotron. I just get on and it works correctly (consistent power readings) from the beginning to the end. It's just too bad that they haven't opened up the API yet so that Zwift and Traineroad could support it.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [jmuise] [ In reply to ]
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jmuise wrote:

My Question - do people seeing this LARGE drift what gear ratio are you using? I always use 39X21, this keeps my chain running pretty straight, but more importantly it makes the system run slower

Same here. Still get the drift - my workout this morning was on ~39x21. No 100%, but definitely small ring and mid-size rear sprocket.

Warm up is about more than leaving the Kickr plugged in. It's also related to heating up the electronic resistance unit, and that only occurs as you start to put serious work into it. It also means the drift will depend upon the intensity of your workout, with the most recent work (eg last 5 mins) having the greatest effect.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [marting] [ In reply to ]
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marting wrote:
jmuise wrote:


My Question - do people seeing this LARGE drift what gear ratio are you using? I always use 39X21, this keeps my chain running pretty straight, but more importantly it makes the system run slower


Same here. Still get the drift - my workout this morning was on ~39x21. No 100%, but definitely small ring and mid-size rear sprocket.

Warm up is about more than leaving the Kickr plugged in. It's also related to heating up the electronic resistance unit, and that only occurs as you start to put serious work into it. It also means the drift will depend upon the intensity of your workout, with the most recent work (eg last 5 mins) having the greatest effect.

It sounds to me like they should introduce a temperature curve similar to what Quarq has done. Put each unit through a power test as they fluctuate the temperature and then they can have a customized temperature curve for each unit and it would probably eliminate the drift.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [jmuise] [ In reply to ]
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jmuise wrote:
dcrainmaker wrote:
mcmetal wrote:
First of all, it's only the first 12 minutes. I've never had any significant drift (more than a difference of 5) after I calibrated any of my CTs at 12 minutes. Secondly, the kicker doesn't use a tire contact. Of course a tire will warm up and change the calibration. The kicker without a tire should be comparable to a Velotron. Now on my Velotron, I get 0 drift from minute 1 to however long I'm on my workout. So I would turn this question back at you and ask, why should the kicker have any drift at all EVER, when it doesn't use a tire based contact point? The Velotron doesn't.


It's not the first 12 minutes (on CT). I used to think I'd be good after about 10-15, but I've seen/have pretty of files where it's taking more like 15-20 minutes to stabilize fully.

As for the KICKR and warm-up, I don't know - that's a question for Wahoo. I've said since my original review I always calibrate about 10-20 mins in on it.


Just some thoughts

My KICKR reads about 13 watts less than my Vectors at 300 watts without any warmup (I do leave mine plugged in all the time), at the end of an hour it might read 18 watts lower than my Vectors so a 5 watt drift. (I know use the Beta firmware and it works perfectly - just some background info)

My Question - do people seeing this LARGE drift what gear ratio are you using? I always use 39X21, this keeps my chain running pretty straight, but more importantly it makes the system run slower (IE the flywheel or belt or whatever internals are in the KICKR) than the 53X12,13,14,21 XX. I believe using a climbing gear ie 39X21 you will have less drift and a more responsive KICKR and could even possibly extend the life of the KICKR.

I have no proof what so ever of the above, just some food for thought, sure my avg speed at 300watts for an hour might only be 21KPH but who the hell cares. If your using speed as a metric on your trainer you're doing it wrong anyways.

I've worked with 6 KICKRS and none have had this drift issue (Sure some are +-10 watts compared to my Vectors at 300 watts) but don't seem to be having the major issues reported here.


I also use the small ring... middle of the cassette. I leave mine plugged in all the time too... and I never move it.

I get no drift... but KICKR is consistently high compared to my calibrated SRM.
Last edited by: Donzo98: Feb 10, 15 7:37
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Donzo98] [ In reply to ]
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Donzo, you're the first instance I've seen of Kickrs reading LESS than another power meter. Anyone else have this?
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [marting] [ In reply to ]
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I am now, after a couple months of 35-40 watt high readings like everyone else, getting low readings at certain times.

when I first start the KICKR is 5 watts lower than my SRM. At the end of a 2hr workout or during long intervals when the unit heats up (my assumption) I get the KICKR at 5 watts higher than my SRM.

If you assume that a hub-based unit should read 5 watts lower than a crank-based unit, then that means that my KICKR is accurate at the start of the workout and then loses 10 watts due to temperature drift.

Eric

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [marting] [ In reply to ]
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marting wrote:
Donzo, you're the first instance I've seen of Kickrs reading LESS than another power meter. Anyone else have this?


Not me... my KICKR is high!!

jmulse's KICKR reads low...




Last edited by: Donzo98: Feb 10, 15 8:24
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [ericM40-44] [ In reply to ]
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I got a reply back from Wahoo. I asked that they chime in to this thread, since they did once already before the meat and potatoes got served up. I got this reply back, and i'm deliberately leaving the support tech's name off of the text -

"I'm sorry you're still experiencing this issue. We've seen across the board that not all power meters are in agreement. That is why we're putting the finishing touches on the new KICKR feature that will allow it to trail/match an external power meter.

We are not going to respond to another forum as we already have several means for providing support on our website(chat, email and phones).

The reason changing the calibration data on the KICKR is not a solution is because it will then change the calibration to match your power meter but then the majority of the users power will now be off. We see a wide discrepancy in power meters and they do not all agree.

Please let me know if you have any other questions."

You know how I read this? They are sorry, probably so, new product isn't working for someone, no one wants that. They are making an app so we can have the Kickr, which has it's own power meter mind you, trail another power meter (if you're fortunate enough to have one of course), so it'll work like the power meter you already own.

As per the calibration data comment, no idea where that came from, no one thinks that every power meter is the same, we just need OUR OWN to function correctly.

So, this sums up my experience with the Kickr, as well as the support. They are missing the point entirely, and the app (band-aid) is, in my eyes, going to be marketed as a "tool that lets you train exactly as your race bike power meter, for ultimate training potential." They can use that as a slogan if they'd like, free of charge.

As soon as my RMA comes this thing is gone like the wind. I've never asked for ACCURACY, i've asked for CONSISTENCY of the readings. I don't care if it tells me I have a 700 FTP, if I adjust percentages accordingly with my advanced math skills, and train, then everything is the same. Don't care about speed, distance, none of it, it's all time, power, and to a lesser extent, heart rate.
Last edited by: 10kman: Feb 10, 15 8:30
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [10kman] [ In reply to ]
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That is disappointing.

They're dodging the issue of poor accuracy - it's notable that while Garmin, SRM, Powertap, Stages etc all publish accuracy specs (+/-2% or better), Wahoo does not. I surmise this is because they can't deliver it.

Wahoo, you should be ashamed.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [marting] [ In reply to ]
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I'm actually bummed they can't chime in here. They can spend a day reading, pass some ideas around a table, get some action items, and post back, and more importantly, deliver upon their promises.

Even a one time post, something for us.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [marting] [ In reply to ]
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I'm betting they outsource the PM aspect of the KICKR and are only really concerned with the ANT+ and BT and 3rd party app capabilities of the unit. This is starting to sound like Tacx all over again.

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“You are experiencing a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [mcmetal] [ In reply to ]
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mcmetal wrote:
dcrainmaker wrote:
mcmetal wrote:
First of all, it's only the first 12 minutes. I've never had any significant drift (more than a difference of 5) after I calibrated any of my CTs at 12 minutes. Secondly, the kicker doesn't use a tire contact. Of course a tire will warm up and change the calibration. The kicker without a tire should be comparable to a Velotron. Now on my Velotron, I get 0 drift from minute 1 to however long I'm on my workout. So I would turn this question back at you and ask, why should the kicker have any drift at all EVER, when it doesn't use a tire based contact point? The Velotron doesn't.


It's not the first 12 minutes (on CT). I used to think I'd be good after about 10-15, but I've seen/have pretty of files where it's taking more like 15-20 minutes to stabilize fully.

As for the KICKR and warm-up, I don't know - that's a question for Wahoo. I've said since my original review I always calibrate about 10-20 mins in on it.


It probably depends on the tires you use. I only use my CT with Zwift now, but I always had stable calibrations after 9-10 minutes. I'd recalibrate every 5 minutes during my 20 minute warmup and it would only vary by 1 or 2 between the 10 minute mark and the 20 minute point.

Conceptually, I like the Kicker. Eliminate the tire (and wires) and (theoretically) eliminate the need for calibration at a reasonable price.

All I can say is I really do like the Velotron. I just get on and it works correctly (consistent power readings) from the beginning to the end. It's just too bad that they haven't opened up the API yet so that Zwift and Traineroad could support it.

Yep, same reason I love the Veltron. I get on and ride, from the first second to the last, never worrying about issues.

So you really think racermate is just sitting around doing nothing? :)

.

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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [10kman] [ In reply to ]
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10kman wrote:
I got a reply back from Wahoo. I asked that they chime in to this thread, since they did once already before the meat and potatoes got served up. I got this reply back, and i'm deliberately leaving the support tech's name off of the text -

"I'm sorry you're still experiencing this issue. We've seen across the board that not all power meters are in agreement. That is why we're putting the finishing touches on the new KICKR feature that will allow it to trail/match an external power meter.

We are not going to respond to another forum as we already have several means for providing support on our website(chat, email and phones).

The reason changing the calibration data on the KICKR is not a solution is because it will then change the calibration to match your power meter but then the majority of the users power will now be off. We see a wide discrepancy in power meters and they do not all agree.

Please let me know if you have any other questions."

You know how I read this? They are sorry, probably so, new product isn't working for someone, no one wants that. They are making an app so we can have the Kickr, which has it's own power meter mind you, trail another power meter (if you're fortunate enough to have one of course), so it'll work like the power meter you already own.

As per the calibration data comment, no idea where that came from, no one thinks that every power meter is the same, we just need OUR OWN to function correctly.

So, this sums up my experience with the Kickr, as well as the support. They are missing the point entirely, and the app (band-aid) is, in my eyes, going to be marketed as a "tool that lets you train exactly as your race bike power meter, for ultimate training potential." They can use that as a slogan if they'd like, free of charge.

As soon as my RMA comes this thing is gone like the wind. I've never asked for ACCURACY, i've asked for CONSISTENCY of the readings. I don't care if it tells me I have a 700 FTP, if I adjust percentages accordingly with my advanced math skills, and train, then everything is the same. Don't care about speed, distance, none of it, it's all time, power, and to a lesser extent, heart rate.

That's genuinely a very disappointing response - but about on par with my interactions with customer support.

I think they're missing a trick here, they've got a group of enthusiastic and well informed users here who could really help iron out some wrinkles. Shame they've not decided to interact in the fantastic way theat Quarq and TR choose to.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
mcmetal wrote:
dcrainmaker wrote:
mcmetal wrote:
First of all, it's only the first 12 minutes. I've never had any significant drift (more than a difference of 5) after I calibrated any of my CTs at 12 minutes. Secondly, the kicker doesn't use a tire contact. Of course a tire will warm up and change the calibration. The kicker without a tire should be comparable to a Velotron. Now on my Velotron, I get 0 drift from minute 1 to however long I'm on my workout. So I would turn this question back at you and ask, why should the kicker have any drift at all EVER, when it doesn't use a tire based contact point? The Velotron doesn't.


It's not the first 12 minutes (on CT). I used to think I'd be good after about 10-15, but I've seen/have pretty of files where it's taking more like 15-20 minutes to stabilize fully.

As for the KICKR and warm-up, I don't know - that's a question for Wahoo. I've said since my original review I always calibrate about 10-20 mins in on it.


It probably depends on the tires you use. I only use my CT with Zwift now, but I always had stable calibrations after 9-10 minutes. I'd recalibrate every 5 minutes during my 20 minute warmup and it would only vary by 1 or 2 between the 10 minute mark and the 20 minute point.

Conceptually, I like the Kicker. Eliminate the tire (and wires) and (theoretically) eliminate the need for calibration at a reasonable price.

All I can say is I really do like the Velotron. I just get on and it works correctly (consistent power readings) from the beginning to the end. It's just too bad that they haven't opened up the API yet so that Zwift and Traineroad could support it.


Yep, same reason I love the Veltron. I get on and ride, from the first second to the last, never worrying about issues.

So you really think racermate is just sitting around doing nothing? :)

.

What is your purpose in posting to this thread?

Do you have anything to contribute regarding the Wahoo Kickr and its infrequently reported delta between various powermeters?
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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Equally important question. Why doesn't he just ride with a 200$ trainer for his constant effort rides? Doesn't train with power and doesn't do structured workouts. Why bother discussing precision equipment when you don't even use the features available?
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [ In reply to ]
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This is a general question about the Kickr. If mine is constantly reading 30-40 watts higher in erg/resistance/slope mode, when I ride a course on PerfPro, is the gradient then off as well?

I just sent my SRM in for battery/recalibration, so once i get it back i'm interested to see where the numbers are.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [ericM40-44] [ In reply to ]
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That could very well be the main reason for their problems with getting a resolution.


ericM40-44 wrote:
I'm betting they outsource the PM aspect of the KICKR and are only really concerned with the ANT+ and BT and 3rd party app capabilities of the unit. This is starting to sound like Tacx all over again.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [yatyas] [ In reply to ]
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yatyas wrote:
This is a general question about the Kickr. If mine is constantly reading 30-40 watts higher in erg/resistance/slope mode, when I ride a course on PerfPro, is the gradient then off as well?

I just sent my SRM in for battery/recalibration, so once i get it back i'm interested to see where the numbers are.

Trust me... Unfortunately it will still be off.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Donzo98] [ In reply to ]
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Are you referring to the SRM or the gradient?
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [yatyas] [ In reply to ]
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On the plus side we should all clean up on Zwift with our nice 30 - 50W Kickr edoping advantage.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Sausagetail] [ In reply to ]
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Well that's certainly not going to entice Wahoo to chime in........
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [yatyas] [ In reply to ]
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yatyas wrote:
Are you referring to the SRM or the gradient?

SRM...I just calibrated mine hoping it would be better. Maybe a touch better. Still off a lot though.
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