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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [proftri] [ In reply to ]
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proftri wrote:
SpeedyChix wrote:
Does turning the KICKR off loose the calibration and reset it to stock or is it stored in the unit?


Not sure if this was directed at me wrt the beta app. Assuming it was, the beta Wahooligan app has a toggle switch for reading power from an external power meter. Once you link it with a power meter, it appears to remember that connection unless you choose to turn it off.


Good to know for future (i'm using an SRM right now). Was curious if the stock / public firmware held calibration from last offset to next use if the unit is turned off between uses. Would be very helpful if it does.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [sp1ke] [ In reply to ]
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sp1ke wrote:
I think the issue is that it looks like the first generation of Kickrs were pretty decent, like in your case 2-3% difference which is acceptable.
The problem is the new ones are not only wildly inaccurate by 20-30 watts but they also drift. What's even more interesting is that even after they're calibrated with a weight and everything they're still off...

I'm not sure why they're not focusing on resolving what looks like a manufacturing issue. Put simply, the old kickrs are OK the new ones are crap.. What changed?

This is the million dollar question - i think your 100% correct and would love to know. Have a pal on my team, his Kickr is more or less 1-2% with zer drift compared to Quarq. He has older Kickr (at least plu in cord model)
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [gormleyflyer] [ In reply to ]
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I didn't know there were multiple hardware versions? How do identify which one is which?
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [gormleyflyer] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe we should compare serial numbers of those who have drift and those who don't, maybe offer back some info to Wahoo which units are affected. I'm sure they have some QA/QC data on those units and be able to check if there was a difference between the those units and the recent units with drift (if that's the case).

http://www.clperformancetraining.com
http://www.pillasport.ca
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [sp1ke] [ In reply to ]
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THIS. I know a couple people with early versions that are spot on. I asked the same thing of Wahoo when I started having my problem, what changed? They said nothing much has changed, but obviously something has. My guess, they are looking into in in the background in parallel. Regardless, if they do this feedback loop, use the PM power fix, it doesn't really matter as it makes the trainer operate exactly as I would want it to. Drive the effort levels that match my PM's power curve. Now for people without a PM, it really shouldn't matter if they are doing their FTP test on the wahoo too. It's like taking your FTP from the virtual power on a KK trainer, it's not the "true" number but you can still use it to gauge progress.


sp1ke wrote:
I think the issue is that it looks like the first generation of Kickrs were pretty decent, like in your case 2-3% difference which is acceptable.
The problem is the new ones are not only wildly inaccurate by 20-30 watts but they also drift. What's even more interesting is that even after they're calibrated with a weight and everything they're still off...

I'm not sure why they're not focusing on resolving what looks like a manufacturing issue. Put simply, the old kickrs are OK the new ones are crap.. What changed?
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [agreif] [ In reply to ]
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Had a fairly successful session tonight. TR Clark workout.

Kickr software .26
Vectors
Recording to Garmin Edge 1000


The TSS and IF recorded by the Garmin were identical to those recorded in TR, which were both on target with those prescribed by the workout.


The main difference I've made was to turn off any averaging in TR, this makes the graph look pretty messy during the workout due to power fluctuation and correction by the feedback loop but importantly the 10 second average displayed by the Garmin during each interval was right where it needed to be. As you can see/will know, at the end of the workout TR smooths things out a bit so the graph doesn't look as messy as it did in realtime. The other thing I did was to do a hot spindown at the end of yesterdays workout when the unit was nice and warm. I didn't spindown at the start of todays workout. You can see right at the beginning of the workout there was a period when the Kickr was setting the resistance too high. Not sure if this is to do with the feedback loop taking a while to establish or something to do with the unit warming up.

Happy to provide serial number if that will be of some use. My unit is around 3 months old, from the description given regarding the plug etc I'm sure this is a "newer" type of unit. It was 30 - 50W high before this software and had drift.


[/img]





Last edited by: Jon208: Feb 11, 15 13:26
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Jon208] [ In reply to ]
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Jon208 wrote:
Happy to provide serial number if that will be of some use. My unit is around 3 months old, from the description given regarding the plug etc I'm sure this is a "newer" type of unit. It was 30 - 50W high before this software and had drift.

So just to confirm, did the software update fix your problem, or was it that you are now syncing with your powermeter that fixed the issue? So if you don't use a bike with a powermeter on the trainer, are you still hosed?
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [nightfend] [ In reply to ]
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nightfend wrote:
Jon208 wrote:
Happy to provide serial number if that will be of some use. My unit is around 3 months old, from the description given regarding the plug etc I'm sure this is a "newer" type of unit. It was 30 - 50W high before this software and had drift.


So just to confirm, did the software update fix your problem, or was it that you are now syncing with your powermeter that fixed the issue? So if you don't use a bike with a powermeter on the trainer, are you still hosed?

With the .26 software (once activated by Wahooligan) my Vectors are controlling the Kickr so that the Kickr is adjusting the load according to the power reported by the Vectors.

Sadly, just having the software alone won't make a difference.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [nightfend] [ In reply to ]
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nightfend wrote:
So if you don't use a bike with a powermeter on the trainer, are you still hosed?


If you don't use a bike with a power meter, this will be a non issue for your training. Your FTP is your FTP if you do all your training on the same device. If you then go and get a power meter later though, you will want to test your FTP with that PM data so you can race to that PM FTP wattage and not the Kickr FTP Wattage. Exact same theory applies if you've only been training with virtual power on TR and then go and get a PM.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [agreif] [ In reply to ]
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agreif wrote:
If you don't use a bike with a power meter, this will be a non issue for your training. Your FTP is your FTP if you do all your training on the same device. If you then go and get a power meter later though, you will want to test your FTP with that PM data so you can race to that PM FTP wattage and not the Kickr FTP Wattage. Exact same theory applies if you've only been training with virtual power on TR and then go and get a PM.


Not really. Let's say you decide to do 2x20 minute threshold intervals on the Wahoo at 300watts on a bike with no powermeter. That second 20 minute interval could very well be at a wattage value lower than the first interval, even though the software tells you it is the same. This is the problem with the heat drift issue as it stands now.

Plenty of people use a dedicated trainer bike for indoor rides and don't want to deal with moving their race bike with the powermeter onto the Kickr every time they do an indoor ride. This issue pretty much forces people to do that, though.
Last edited by: nightfend: Feb 11, 15 13:55
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [nightfend] [ In reply to ]
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nightfend wrote:
Not really. Let's say you decide to do 2x20 minute threshold intervals on the Wahoo at 300watts on a bike with no powermeter. That second 20 minute interval could very well be at a wattage value lower than the first interval, even though the software tells you it is the same. This is the problem with the heat drift issue as it stands now.
Ok, I'll buy that. I thought even a KK varies in terms of effort after it warms up though, right? Does TR take that into account? Maybe your point is that the drift is much smaller. I can appreciate the issues that would cause.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [agreif] [ In reply to ]
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agreif wrote:
Ok, I'll buy that. I thought even a KK varies in terms of effort after it warms up though, right? Does TR take that into account? Maybe your point is that the drift is much smaller. I can appreciate the issues that would cause.

Kurt Kinetic trainers probably have this issue to a certain extent as the tire warms up, the resistance would change a little. Same reason you have to re-calibrate the Computrainer after 10 to 15 minutes to account for the warmed up tire. The issue with the Kickr is that there is no tire, so you'd assume they would have a far easier time accounting for drift. Unfortunately, that does not seem to be the case at the moment. Maybe it is something they can address in software.

I guess the best a person could do is to choose when they will test their FTP on the Kickr. If you test it every time from say the 10 minute mark to the 30 minute mark of using the trainer, then maybe you could create repeatability. Maybe.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [nightfend] [ In reply to ]
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The KK most likely, since it's fluid based, does warm up to some extent. BUT, the key here, is whatever power meter you're using, would automatically be compensating for such things and your numbers would adjust.

Example - PowerTap hub last night for my workout. Numbers held steady during the whole thing, and I do a calibration just before I start riding, like always. Heart rate stays consistent through whole workout, so the power meter must somehow be adapting to the room temp rising as things get going in there. My workout area is inside, so the temp is regulated, but you can feel a slight warm in the air if you leave, shower, then come back and clean up in the room. The PT probably figures itself out as you're riding, or else I'd see a drift situation with it.

My Kickr officially left my hands last night and is in transit back to original place of purchase. I doubt I'll be back, I'm not negative on the company, they're trying, I like the idea of the product if it works in standalone mode, but if I need another power meter to use theirs, I'm out. I do hope they sort it out, it was stable and easy to use in terms of control and such via a phone/tablet. Open source is nice, things advance quicker that way in terms of features.

They have some work to do though, and their support for me, has been lackluster at best. I feel they aren't addressing obvious issues, and they are slow to respond even via email.

If they go with a closed loop system, so everything gets calculated in real time, and adjusts accordingly, it's a good product. I found an alternative that I'm anxiously awaiting to hit my doorstep. It will be under the same scrutiny of course, I haven't read of any examples of it doing anything wrong and the company emailed me back answers to my questions in under 12 hours, so I'm amped.

For now though, PT and KK will hold me over just fine, my brain is my ERG.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Jon208] [ In reply to ]
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this is great insofar as it goes but if you don't have a PM you're out of luck. The reason why your numbers read the same is because, IMHO, the KICKR is merely rebroadcasting your PM's numbers to Trainer Road.

Jon208 wrote:
Had a fairly successful session tonight. TR Clark workout.

Kickr software .26
Vectors
Recording to Garmin Edge 1000


The TSS and IF recorded by the Garmin were identical to those recorded in TR, which were both on target with those prescribed by the workout.


The main difference I've made was to turn off any averaging in TR, this makes the graph look pretty messy during the workout due to power fluctuation and correction by the feedback loop but importantly the 10 second average displayed by the Garmin during each interval was right where it needed to be. As you can see/will know, at the end of the workout TR smooths things out a bit so the graph doesn't look as messy as it did in realtime. The other thing I did was to do a hot spindown at the end of yesterdays workout when the unit was nice and warm. I didn't spindown at the start of todays workout. You can see right at the beginning of the workout there was a period when the Kickr was setting the resistance too high. Not sure if this is to do with the feedback loop taking a while to establish or something to do with the unit warming up.

Happy to provide serial number if that will be of some use. My unit is around 3 months old, from the description given regarding the plug etc I'm sure this is a "newer" type of unit. It was 30 - 50W high before this software and had drift.


[/img]





Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [ericM40-44] [ In reply to ]
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ericM40-44 wrote:
this is great insofar as it goes but if you don't have a PM you're out of luck. The reason why your numbers read the same is because, IMHO, the KICKR is merely rebroadcasting your PM's numbers to Trainer Road.

I'm not so sure that this is exactly what is going on. Assuming the config that your PM is linked to TR via ANT+ and the Kickr paired to TR via Bluetooth, then the power display on TR is definitely coming from the Kickr, unless you have the 'Use Power from Electronic Trainer' option UNCHECKED in the TR profile tab.

In theory unchecking this option in TR should accomplish what the Wahooligans app is doing in that the TR display should be from our bike PM and it should force the Kickr to adjust resistance to maintain those same power levels. I've tested this numerous times and it is not working in my setup. The change in resistance lags almost 45s-1m behind. I purposely slow my cadence to a minimum and the power drops through the floor versus the target. I'm thinking whatever fix Wahoo releases (if we are still alive...) might also cure this problem too.

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Non-Swimming Duathlete
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [rbrnut] [ In reply to ]
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right, the data is coming from the KICKR to TR, but where is the KICKR getting the data from? The PM.

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [ericM40-44] [ In reply to ]
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ericM40-44 wrote:
right, the data is coming from the KICKR to TR, but where is the KICKR getting the data from? The PM.

But do we know that? When using a bike w/o a PM the Kickr broadcasts its power readings (and speed etc.) to any BT or ANT device. So it could be that in this case the Kickr is reading the PM and adjusting its resistance to match and is broadcasting its numbers just as above on a bike w/o a PM. I agree that would be difficult to imagine that the Kickr hits the exact or close numbers your PM has, so the rebroadcast sounds feasbile, but we really don't know the behavior of the Kickr. Maybe someone from Wahoo will chime in :-)

--------------------------------------------------
Non-Swimming Duathlete
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Felt_Rider] [ In reply to ]
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Felt_Rider wrote:
Why is Velotron continually being brought into this thread? (I know for humor sake) :-)

I can understand comparing the Kickr to the Computrainer, but a Velotron trainer that the website currently states as $9,950 with a frame is not an equal comparison to a $1,000 trainer. I will agree that for the $1K+ that I spent I don't feel as if I got all the qualities (yet) for what I paid. Most of the attributes of the Kickr are working well for me and I suspect for many. It has a great feel to it compared to other trainers I have used.

The reason is because the Kickr is a Velotron light. There is no wheel, therefore there should be no reason to need continual calibration. With a Velotron it's calibrated once at the factory and you never need to do any sort of zeroing or calibration.

The reason a trainer tire unit requires calibration is due to press on force. None of that should affect the Kickr.

I love the concept of the Kickr. Racermate should have at least made a CT without a tire contact. No wires, open API is all great. What is not good is DRIFT. It's one thing if the kicker is just wrong, but CONSISTENT. This way you test on the Kickr and just do your workouts. But the up and downward drift is a HUGE problem. If I want to do an interval at 300 Kickr watts, it should be 300 Kickr watts at 20 minutes, 30 minutes, etc. etc.

Until Wahoo can give an explanation for what is being reported, it is best to stay away... Well unless you have a 2nd power meter and want to use that with the Kickr.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [ericM40-44] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Eric,
I don't think that's quite right. In the TR settings I have "use power from electronic trainer" unselected. The power shown on the TR screen is definitely that from the Vectors, linked to the computer via ANT+. I was pleased to see that the 10 second power displayed by the Garmin held steady at the power target for the interval.

Jon
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Jon208] [ In reply to ]
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Jon208 wrote:
Hi Eric,
I don't think that's quite right. In the TR settings I have "use power from electronic trainer" unselected. The power shown on the TR screen is definitely that from the Vectors, linked to the computer via ANT+. I was pleased to see that the 10 second power displayed by the Garmin held steady at the power target for the interval.

Jon

Jon - why don't you just ship me your phone/tablet with the app on it so I can update my firmware on the Kickr? Promise I won't make any calls :-)

--------------------------------------------------
Non-Swimming Duathlete
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [rbrnut] [ In reply to ]
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No obvious flaws with that plan ;-)

I'm in Yorkshire, how much do you reckon the postage will be?!
Last edited by: Jon208: Feb 12, 15 14:09
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Jon208] [ In reply to ]
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Bringing this back up to the top....

Anyone have anything further to add??

If not... I assume we are waiting for the Wahooligan App to be released publicly again.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Donzo98] [ In reply to ]
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Donzo98 wrote:
Bringing this back up to the top....

Anyone have anything further to add??

If not... I assume we are waiting for the Wahooligan App to be released publicly again.

Yep all waiting for Wahoo to come clean and get their head out of their shell.

So seconds into my 3 hour workout today my Kickr is reading 1300 watts and increasing (in TR). Kill the workout, spin down in Wahoo utility (and TR) yielding an offset of 4091! Start up the workout and in 7-10 seconds the resistance hits full on, can't pedal and power hits zero. Try same steps and others - nothing. Launched a ticket into Wahoo and will see what they say. From others, seems to be needing a new top cap and sensor. Maybe they can send me one with the beta firmware loaded (assuming that's where it's stored).

--------------------------------------------------
Non-Swimming Duathlete
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [rbrnut] [ In reply to ]
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rbrnut wrote:
Donzo98 wrote:
Bringing this back up to the top....

Anyone have anything further to add??

If not... I assume we are waiting for the Wahooligan App to be released publicly again.

Yep all waiting for Wahoo to come clean and get their head out of their shell.

So seconds into my 3 hour workout today my Kickr is reading 1300 watts and increasing (in TR). Kill the workout, spin down in Wahoo utility (and TR) yielding an offset of 4091! Start up the workout and in 7-10 seconds the resistance hits full on, can't pedal and power hits zero. Try same steps and others - nothing. Launched a ticket into Wahoo and will see what they say. From others, seems to be needing a new top cap and sensor. Maybe they can send me one with the beta firmware loaded (assuming that's where it's stored).

BRUTAL... just so discouraging!
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [rbrnut] [ In reply to ]
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Several weeks ago I posted instructions for mechanically calibrating your KICKR to your external power meter once and for allno firmware or software updates required. I wanted to update that post at this time to state that this solution continues to work extremely well for me. My Kickr's power is well within a 2% margin from both my SRM and Stages power meters. Very little additional tweaking of the belt tension has been required.

To be clear, when doing a TrainerRoad workout, I deselect "use power from electronic trainer." The workout then records/displays the power from my external power meter (I mostly use my bike with the SRM) and with this setup, my Kickr is controlled very precisely to achieve the correct power.

So, at the risk of being reprimanded for repeating my post, I'm including the original instructions below. It's important to follow all the instructions carefully and in the correct order. Do not do another spindown for your Kickr after completing these instructions. If you need to tweak your calibration, simply turn the tension screw a tiny amount in the appropriate direction.

A lot of you are struggling with Kickrs that read +25-30 watts as I once was. Based on my experience I think you'll be very happy with the results. If, and when Wahoo comes out with software fix that gets integrated into TrainerRoad, your Kickr will still work with the new software after this calibration process. That may not be available until next winter season, though, so I think going this route at this time makes sense even with a potential software solution on the horizon.

Also, some of you have mentioned that you've been able to set your Kickrs to permanently follow your external power meters using the beta firmware without having to relaunch the Wahooligan app. This is contrary to how Wahoo has stated the functionality works. Therfore I'm not certain this is technically possible and I can't help but question whether or not you're really seeing what you think you're seeing.

At any rate... Original instructions (with minor clarification updates):

While we wait for the official software release from Kickr that will allow control from an external power meter (and developers to implement the SDK) I have a working fix for inaccurate Kickrs.

I've had my original Kickr replaced, purchased the calibration kit, done countless spindowns both cold and warmed-up and no matter what, my Kickr reads about 20 watts higher than reported from both my SRM and Stages power meters.

I've noticed that the discrepancy can be lessened by pedaling through the spindown to make it artificially longer, or by adding to the weight when using the calibration kit and app. Neither method has led to a reliable and accurate solution, but it did show me that there are ways to unofficially manipulate the Kickr to get it behave a bit better. In fact, it seemed obvious that either a mechanical or software based calibration dial could have been implemented by Wahoo to allow us to adjust the Kickr's wattage to match an external meter. If the Kickr consistenty reads 20 watts high, just turn the dial until it reads correctly. Why didn't Wahoo just give us something like this?!

Well, it turns out they did. It is possible to adjust the belt tension on your Kickr and that, in turn, will adjust a Kickr's reported wattage. Now, this is not how Wahoo intended us to use the belt tension adjustment and this is a workaround they probably wouldn't officially recommend. But if you've been struggling with this as much as I have and want a real solution to the problem, follow these instructions:

FOR A KICKR THAT REPORTS WATTAGE THAT IS TOO HIGH:

First, locate and familiarize yourself with the access hole for the belt tension adjustment screw. It is located on the rear of the Kickr on the plastic casing just above the top of the handle. If you have trouble locating the hole or understanding where the adjustment screw is, you can remove the plastic casing from the drive side of the Kickr. There are two hex bolts and one tiny Phillips screw that need to be removed.

Removing the cover isn't absolutely necessary, though, as you can access the adjustment screw through the access hole. Use a 2.5 mm hex driver. If you don't remove the cover, you might have to adjust the position of the hex driver to find the screw head. Try pointing a bit down if you keep missing it.

Once you find the adjustment screw and are comfortable with adjusting it, warm up your Kickr for 10-15 minutes and then do a spindown calibration. For our purposes, you want the spindown to be about 23-24 seconds (normally, without using this procedure you'd want it at about 15 seconds, but we'll get there). If it is shorter than this, turn the belt tension screw counter-clockwise. This will loosen the belt tension and allow the spindown to take more time. Keep adjusting the screw and performing spindowns until you get a number in the 23-24 second range. The reason you're doing this is that after you get your spindown in this range, you're going to tighten the tension. You don't want your tension too tight, so if you start in this range you'll most likely end up with a good result.

Once you've gotten your spindown in the 23-24 second range, say goodbye to future spindowns. This should be the last one you do from this point on and you will calibrate your Kickr to your power meter solely using the belt tension screw. If you do another spindown after the following calibration steps, you will bring your Kickr back to reading too high.

Next, use Trainer Road, the Wahoo app or whatever you're comfortable with to give you a steady wattage to help you calibrate. Choose a wattage that's not too easy, but something you can hold. Endurance to tempo pace is good.

Also, make sure your trusted power meter is functioning, zeroed-out and you have a way to read its output. You can do this with TrainerRoad or using a Garmin. In TrainerRoad, make sure your power meter is connected and DESELECT "use power from an electronic trainer" to display power from your trusted external power meter and not the Kickr.

Start riding at a steady 90 cadence and note the difference from your Kickr's target power and your trusted power meter's actual power. If the Kickr is reading high, get off the bike and turn the tension screw clockwise a couple of turns. Get back on the bike and you should now notice that your power meter is reading higher at the same target power. Your're working harder now, but the target power is same. Keep up with this adjustment process until the average power from your power meter matches the Kickr's target power. Note that the power will go up and down a bit (+/- 5 watts or so) as the Kickr cycles to maintain the target power, but once the average is about the same, your Kickr is now calibrated to your power meter.

At this point, make sure that your Kickr has not become louder or "screeechier" than before. This would indicate that the belt tension is too high. If so, start the process over again with your final spindown at a looser belt tension than what you started with for. Remember, once you have a calibration you are happy with, DO NOT ever do another spindown. Any future calibrations should be done only using the belt tension screw.

I haven't heard many reports of Kickrs reporting wattages that are too low, but the same process could be used to correct those errors. In that case, you'd want to start at a higher belt tension as calibration will require reducing tension after the final spindown.
Last edited by: Krispy2014: Feb 15, 15 22:45
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