Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [iSam] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
iSam wrote:
That's pretty much my setup. Older SRM on the tri-bike which lives on the trainer at the moment and DA9070 on the roadie. Only silly thing is that I've ended up with the rolls royce set up on my roadie which I only really train on. My tri-bike with an older SRM and Ultegra 10 speed is what I use for events.

I'm even more crazy than you... My only "events" are group rides and occasional organized centuries. I don't even need a power meter :)
Quote Reply
Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [iSam] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
SRM's use a different message structure than all the other power meters. It's sort of grandfathered/shoehorned into the ANT+ standard, since it was released before the ANT+ profile was written. SRM loaned us one so we can test it in house before sending it out as a beta. We're working on it now.
Quote Reply
Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [chippyhawkeye] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Heh, interesting. Thanks
Quote Reply
Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [chippyhawkeye] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
chippyhawkeye wrote:
SRM's use a different message structure than all the other power meters
I had gotten the impression this was due to the SRM having a built in cadence sensor so the cadence data gets piggy backed in the same message stream.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Quote Reply
Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [larssr] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Did first workout with my retensioned kickr as per Krispy's instructions earlier.

I set trainerroad to display power from my quarq,
it appeared that the tension I set initially may have been a little too much as it was about 8w above,
after a couple mins I loosened a 1/4 turn and proceeded, it was pretty close about 3-4w consistently below now.

There is still some drift over time, my natural cadence for the first few intervals is around 98-102
I had to make a constant effort to get target wattage and last two intervals show this by higher cadence 104-106.

The drift on the last interval was probably 3-4w.
Quote Reply
Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [lennyk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I'm a little confused how cadence matters if doing w/o in erg mode ?



lennyk wrote:
Did first workout with my retensioned kickr as per Krispy's instructions earlier.

I set trainerroad to display power from my quarq,
it appeared that the tension I set initially may have been a little too much as it was about 8w above,
after a couple mins I loosened a 1/4 turn and proceeded, it was pretty close about 3-4w consistently below now.

There is still some drift over time, my natural cadence for the first few intervals is around 98-102
I had to make a constant effort to get target wattage and last two intervals show this by higher cadence 104-106.

The drift on the last interval was probably 3-4w.
Quote Reply
Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [gormleyflyer] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Because of lower erg power you end up chasing the power figure which results in higher cadence but in the long run it probably doesn't matter as you indicated.
Quote Reply
Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [lennyk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Were you using ERG mode for that ride? Seems really bouncy, like resistance mode.
Quote Reply
Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [lennyk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
lennyk wrote:
Because of lower erg power you end up chasing the power figure which results in higher cadence but in the long run it probably doesn't matter as you indicated.

Huh? Cadence doesn't matter at all in erg mode as far as the power numbers are concerned.

Favorite Gear: Dimond | TriRig | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
Quote Reply
Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [3Aims] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
3Aims wrote:
Were you using ERG mode for that ride? Seems really bouncy, like resistance mode.
Lets not forget that raw power data tends to be extremely stochastic, so if the Kickr is being controlled by a powermeter, then that would seem like a nice steady graph considering the Kickr is setting resistance levels while calculating rolling averages on milliseconds of data derived from an external source.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Quote Reply
Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [ms6073] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I did a three hour session last night using the beta. Initially I had TrainerRoad showing the power from my Kickr while I had my Garmin picking up my Power2Max. About 45 minutes in, I changed the setting in TrainerRoad to display the power from my Power2Max. The setting seemed to make no difference in how well the Kickr adjusted to hit the target wattage. Overall the beta is a genius solution - though a little crummy for everyone who doesn't own a power meter. Then again, my Kickr was perfect until I got a power meter! Ignorance is bliss I guess! Most of the time, the Kickr adjusts such that my Power2Max averages within a couple watts of the target. Every so often, an interval will be 5+ watts off (See Tempo 3 and Tempo 6 below). While still perfectly acceptable to me, I do find this behavior very odd since it does so well the rest of the time. Anyway - it's a beta firmware that was never supposed to be leaked. Maybe this will be improved prior to the official release.




ms6073 wrote:
Lets not forget that raw power data tends to be extremely stochastic

^This. Not to mention power measured at the cranks is probably a lot noisier than power measured downstream of the drivetrain. I could be mistaken, but I imagine the 13lb flywheel does a lot to smooth the power reading from the Kickr.
Last edited by: cmeeks: Jan 20, 15 7:46
Quote Reply
Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [GMAN19030] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In the steady state cadence doesn't matter in erg mode, but what do you think happens when you go from one cadence to another? In order to do a higher cadence, you briefly pedal harder, so for a short period you have higher power than the erg mode is set to. Similarly, when you slow your cadence you will briefly lower your power. I see this all the time as I stand periodically to relieve saddle pressure and use a lower cadence while standing. The average power for the interval drops by a couple watts when I initially stand and slow the cadence and then gets raised again when I have to do a hard micro-burst to get back to my higher cadence while seated. So while I've never tried it, I guess one way to try to "hit a number" over an interval is to slowly chase higher and higher cadences.
Quote Reply
Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [jbank] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jbank wrote:
In the steady state cadence doesn't matter in erg mode, but what do you think happens when you go from one cadence to another? In order to do a higher cadence, you briefly pedal harder, so for a short period you have higher power than the erg mode is set to. Similarly, when you slow your cadence you will briefly lower your power. I see this all the time as I stand periodically to relieve saddle pressure and use a lower cadence while standing. The average power for the interval drops by a couple watts when I initially stand and slow the cadence and then gets raised again when I have to do a hard micro-burst to get back to my higher cadence while seated. So while I've never tried it, I guess one way to try to "hit a number" over an interval is to slowly chase higher and higher cadences.

It seems kind of silly to inflate the Erg mode a few watts by increasing your cadence to "hit" a number, zones are overlapped I wouldn't worry if I am 5 watts above or below "that" target.
Quote Reply
Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [jmuise] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jmuise wrote:
jbank wrote:
In the steady state cadence doesn't matter in erg mode, but what do you think happens when you go from one cadence to another? In order to do a higher cadence, you briefly pedal harder, so for a short period you have higher power than the erg mode is set to. Similarly, when you slow your cadence you will briefly lower your power. I see this all the time as I stand periodically to relieve saddle pressure and use a lower cadence while standing. The average power for the interval drops by a couple watts when I initially stand and slow the cadence and then gets raised again when I have to do a hard micro-burst to get back to my higher cadence while seated. So while I've never tried it, I guess one way to try to "hit a number" over an interval is to slowly chase higher and higher cadences.


It seems kind of silly to inflate the Erg mode a few watts by increasing your cadence to "hit" a number, zones are overlapped I wouldn't worry if I am 5 watts above or below "that" target.

I'm not arguing that it is a good idea and not silly, but someone questioned that cadence has any impact in Erg mode. I was simply addressing that question. Erg mode is super cool and can seem a bit magical at first (at least for me it did), but a little thought about what it means to change cadence in erg mode leads you to what I said. The flip side of increasing cadence yielding higher power is the depressing spiral toward 0 cadence when you are unable to maintain the set erg power.
Quote Reply
Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [jbank] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jbank wrote:
jmuise wrote:
jbank wrote:
In the steady state cadence doesn't matter in erg mode, but what do you think happens when you go from one cadence to another? In order to do a higher cadence, you briefly pedal harder, so for a short period you have higher power than the erg mode is set to. Similarly, when you slow your cadence you will briefly lower your power. I see this all the time as I stand periodically to relieve saddle pressure and use a lower cadence while standing. The average power for the interval drops by a couple watts when I initially stand and slow the cadence and then gets raised again when I have to do a hard micro-burst to get back to my higher cadence while seated. So while I've never tried it, I guess one way to try to "hit a number" over an interval is to slowly chase higher and higher cadences.


It seems kind of silly to inflate the Erg mode a few watts by increasing your cadence to "hit" a number, zones are overlapped I wouldn't worry if I am 5 watts above or below "that" target.


I'm not arguing that it is a good idea and not silly, but someone questioned that cadence has any impact in Erg mode. I was simply addressing that question. Erg mode is super cool and can seem a bit magical at first (at least for me it did), but a little thought about what it means to change cadence in erg mode leads you to what I said. The flip side of increasing cadence yielding higher power is the depressing spiral toward 0 cadence when you are unable to maintain the set erg power.

+1 on the spiral to 0 cadence,

thanks for the laugh and good point.
Quote Reply
Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [jmuise] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jmuise wrote:
jbank wrote:
jmuise wrote:
jbank wrote:
In the steady state cadence doesn't matter in erg mode, but what do you think happens when you go from one cadence to another? In order to do a higher cadence, you briefly pedal harder, so for a short period you have higher power than the erg mode is set to. Similarly, when you slow your cadence you will briefly lower your power. I see this all the time as I stand periodically to relieve saddle pressure and use a lower cadence while standing. The average power for the interval drops by a couple watts when I initially stand and slow the cadence and then gets raised again when I have to do a hard micro-burst to get back to my higher cadence while seated. So while I've never tried it, I guess one way to try to "hit a number" over an interval is to slowly chase higher and higher cadences.


It seems kind of silly to inflate the Erg mode a few watts by increasing your cadence to "hit" a number, zones are overlapped I wouldn't worry if I am 5 watts above or below "that" target.


I'm not arguing that it is a good idea and not silly, but someone questioned that cadence has any impact in Erg mode. I was simply addressing that question. Erg mode is super cool and can seem a bit magical at first (at least for me it did), but a little thought about what it means to change cadence in erg mode leads you to what I said. The flip side of increasing cadence yielding higher power is the depressing spiral toward 0 cadence when you are unable to maintain the set erg power.


+1 on the spiral to 0 cadence,

thanks for the laugh and good point.

that sad moment when the pedals stop moving... :(

The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev
Quote Reply
Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [3Aims] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I had trainerroad set to display the power reported by quarq.
Quote Reply
Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Krispy2014] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Dude, thanks so much for the detailed info on the tensioning hack. Here is my brief report I sent a friend experiencing similar issues with his kickr on giving it a try and having what seems like some nice initial success:

On my off day, I took off the little plastic cover (couple of screws on each side) to reveal the belt and make it easy to see the two screws involved in retensioning the belt. The larger screw on the side loosens to allow you to make an adjustment to the screw in back (retightening after each adjustment). Clockwise makes the kickr harder (raises watts compared to quarq) counter-clockwise makes it easier. You set it easy first, do a spindown and then never spindown again. You then adjust till it matches. I confirmed on Monday that adjusting things indeed changed the way the kickr read, but didn't try to dial it in (I was just holding 150 watts to test).

Last night I setup a longer ride (picked quasi-randomly from TR for ~90 minutes Z2), with TR showing my quarq wattage. The first long interval the kickr was 10ish watts low (previously was more like 25 watts), so during the short rest, I got off, adjusted the tension by 1/2 turn and got back on (~30 seconds). The next long interval read ~4 watts low, so same story at the end of the interval adjusted another 1/4 turn. The next interval read 1 watt low (!!), so I adjusted another smidge and the last interval the power seemed to line up perfectly. So at this point I'm cautiously optimistic and very happy to at least have some ability to adjust things if/when they get out of whack. The next test will be to see if the settings stay stable across multiple days of workouts.

Here was what the TR ride looked like. You can see the yellow line (the quarq reading) getting closer to the green (kickr target wattage) in each interval.

http://www.trainerroad.com/...es/1521716-Holt-Hill
Quote Reply
Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [jbank] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jbank wrote:
Dude, thanks so much for the detailed info on the tensioning hack. Here is my brief report I sent a friend experiencing similar issues with his kickr on giving it a try and having what seems like some nice initial success:

Here was what the TR ride looked like. You can see the yellow line (the quarq reading) getting closer to the green (kickr target wattage) in each interval.

http://www.trainerroad.com/...es/1521716-Holt-Hill

Looks like a good move, have you checked the change in spin down time since the tension change?

One thing I noticed is the cadence is still crowding 100rpm. Is this your preference or higher than you'd like to spin?
Quote Reply
Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [SpeedyChix] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I didn't check the spindown at the end since the original directions basically said "don't spindown!" When I first played with it though I did a baseline spindown, adjusted the tension looser and did a second spindown that took a little longer. Given how easy it was to dial in, I'm tempted to try a spindown now just to see where it is at with the expectation that I would need to redo the same adjustment process. There is probably no need to do 15-20 min intervals to see how far off you are; I just happened to be doing that sort of workout and built it in to my workout for the day.

Regarding cadence, 100 rpm is my preference. During the intervals I tried to keep it relatively steady to avoid adding another variable that might impact the measurement. In the last interval I sped up to ~120 in the last minute or so, which is what resulted in a slight bump in power at the end. The power through the rest of the interval was spot on. TR has a nice little "ball" showing where the current avg power is and that ball hovered right on top of the target power during the last interval.
Quote Reply
Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [jbank] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jbank wrote:
I didn't check the spindown at the end since the original directions basically said "don't spindown!" When I first played with it though I did a baseline spindown, adjusted the tension looser and did a second spindown that took a little longer. Given how easy it was to dial in, I'm tempted to try a spindown now just to see where it is at with the expectation that I would need to redo the same adjustment process. There is probably no need to do 15-20 min intervals to see how far off you are; I just happened to be doing that sort of workout and built it in to my workout for the day.

Regarding cadence, 100 rpm is my preference. During the intervals I tried to keep it relatively steady to avoid adding another variable that might impact the measurement. In the last interval I sped up to ~120 in the last minute or so, which is what resulted in a slight bump in power at the end. The power through the rest of the interval was spot on. TR has a nice little "ball" showing where the current avg power is and that ball hovered right on top of the target power during the last interval.

Thanks much for the reply.
Quote Reply
Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [SpeedyChix] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Version 24 of the firmware was available this morning, with SRM support. I did a quick check, and I now see the green dot. My Kickr and SRM have always been very close, but I'm happy to see how this works.
Quote Reply
Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [PSJoyce] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
PSJoyce wrote:
Version 24 of the firmware was available this morning, with SRM support. I did a quick check, and I now see the green dot. My Kickr and SRM have always been very close, but I'm happy to see how this works.


Did you note anything else for this release, I am not able to see the release notes until I get home. Would be nice if if it was closer to actually working rather than just adding false hopes to SRM users!

On the internet, you can be anything you want. It is a pity so many people choose to be stupid.
Last edited by: chrisbint: Jan 21, 15 6:28
Quote Reply
Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [PSJoyce] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Firmware 24 w/ SRM Support - tell us more, are there Wahoo instructions? Is this a Beta? what instructions did u follow? Do you have to use the Wahooligan app?
Quote Reply
Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [chrisbint] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I didn't have time to do more than update the firmware and look for the green dot this morning. The release note did say that this version added SRM support.
Quote Reply

Prev Next