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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Krispy2014] [ In reply to ]
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My spin down is 26.7 with an offset of 416.

My question is this... my SRM bounces around a lot. For a 10 minute interval set at 220.... I see numbers ranging from 190 to 210 or so.

Where do I set the KICKR screw... What numbers do you shoot for?

I assume you are now using the Wahooligan App.... Since you are using your SRM to control the KICKR. If you have done the adjustment, what don't you just use the KICKR "normally"?
Last edited by: Donzo98: Feb 15, 15 20:43
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Donzo98] [ In reply to ]
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Donzo, no this procedure does not use the Wahooligan app and does not set the Kickr to follow the SRM. This procedure will allow you to calibrate your Kickr to closely match your external power meter.

In TrainerRoad, when you deselect "use power from electronic trainer" you are not telling the Kickr to adjust its resistance based on the external power meter. Your Kickr and TrainerRoad do not at this time have that functionality whether you're using the beta software or not.

I believe there is some confusion about this issue. To clarify, when you select "use power from electronic trainer" the only change that occurs is that TrainerRoad will display and record the power from the Kickr instead of your power meter and the target power and actual power will always be the same.

When using an external power meter with a Kickr, though, the default and correct setting is to DESELECT "use power from electronic trainer." In this mode, TrainerRoad will display and record power from your power meter if it is connected. If your power meter and Kickr are calibrated using my instructions (or you were lucky enough to receive a properly calibrated unit from the factory), your target power and actual power will closely match during a workout. If, however, your power meter and Kickr are reading power differently, the actual power and target power will be different to the degree that they don't match. The "actual power" field displays your power meter's output and the "target power" is what TrainerRoad wants you to achieve (and in-turn, also what the Kickr's own power meter reports as the wattage).

There is no setting in TrainerRoad at this time that will allow a Kickr to be controlled by an external power meter. Display and record from a power meter, yes. Control, no. This will only happen when Wahoo publicly release the firmware to enable this AND TrainerRoad also update their software to work with the new functionality.

The location of the belt tension screw and recommended starting spindown numbers are described in my instructions.

Hope that helps!
Last edited by: Krispy2014: Feb 15, 15 22:32
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Donzo98] [ In reply to ]
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I don't believe Krispy is using the W app. In theory TR has always had the capability for what the W app does. It's the 'Use Power from Electronic Trainer' option on the Profiles tab. If this is unchecked TR will display the power/cadence from your PM and control the Kickr in ERG mode to match. I tried this many times unsuccessfully and worked with TR support. The Kickr always lagged almost a minute behind in adjusting resistance, so basically useless. Assuming this will now work once the new firmware is released.

Until then I suggest Wahoo's marketing team rename the product the Wahoo Ankr.

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Non-Swimming Duathlete
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Krispy2014] [ In reply to ]
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Cross posted. Interesting on the functioning of the power source check box.

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Non-Swimming Duathlete
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Krispy2014] [ In reply to ]
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So... In order for TR to record my SRM data... I would need to go back to using ANT+ dongle I assume.

Currently using BT only to display KICKR data on TR screen.

You are using the KICKR to control TR... and displaying SRM data on the TR screen. I'm not seeing the benefit of that... I'm using my PC7 to display SRM data.

I clearly see the benefit of your fix though.... once the numbers match, that's really all that matters... no matter where you wish to display them.
Last edited by: Donzo98: Feb 15, 15 21:43
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Donzo98] [ In reply to ]
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Donzo, yes, you will need the ANT stick to use an ANT power meter such as the SRM. The benefit is that TrainerRoad will record and display the ACTUAL power from your power meter. You will also get a visual indication as to how well calibrated the Kickr is. If your target power and actual power closely match when "use power from electronic trainer" is DESELECTED (the correct setting when using an external power meter) your Kickr is properly calibrated.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [rbrnut] [ In reply to ]
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Rbnut, as I posted above, I believe you are confused as to the functionality of the "use power from electronic trainer" option in TrainerRoad. Unchecking this does not and was never intended to make a Kickr be controlled by an external power meter in erg mode. This is clearly stated by TrainerRoad in their support section at their site.

Deselecting "use power from electronic trainer" is the correct setting when using a Kickr with an external power meter. It allows TrainerRoad to record the power from an external power meter and display its power in the "actual power" field. But that's it.

Having TrainerRoad record, display AND control a Kickr from an external power meter will only come when Wahoo makes their upgraded firmware publicly available AND TrainerRoad updates their software to work with it.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Krispy2014] [ In reply to ]
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Krispy2014 wrote:
Having TrainerRoad record, display AND control a Kickr from an external power meter will only come when Wahoo makes their upgraded firmware publicly available AND TrainerRoad updates their software to work with it.

Agreed on the need for Wahoo to make the firmware publicly available, but I'm not sure what work TR needs to do. I'm using the beta app v.26, and best I can tell TR is successfully recording, displaying, and controlling my Kickr from my Quarq. At the very least, I can say that there used to be a 10-15w disparity between my Kickr and my Quarq, and that's gone using the beta app. And I know that I'm pushing the power level from my Quarq (because I'm recording that independently and separately from the Kickr). If the power level was from my Kickr, the disparity would presumably still be there (i.e., the Quarq would be reading lower than the Kickr).
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [proftri] [ In reply to ]
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proftri, I've had the same experience and a notable change once I initiated the Wahooligan app with the Kickr firmware update at that time, which I think was the .22. The Kickr now has .26, but I did not notice a difference with it applied. I have compared data in a few different ways before and after. Before the beta applied, WKO's MFRA all tests between the Quarq's output and the Kickr's output in segment analysis showed a consistent 14 to 15 watt difference. After the applied toggle and assigning the Quarq's sensor number within the Wahooligan app reflected that the data and Kickr control was indeed coming from the Quarq. The data recorded in TrainerRoad does appear to be a smoothed line just about right down the middle of the Quarq's variable power recorded on a Garmin Edge.

The posts by Krispy were a bit confusing to me to read this morning, but I may be misunderstanding some of the posts. I am pretty sure in my setup the Quarq is now in control of the Kickr in ERG. Perhaps the data being recorded in TrainerRoad is still coming from the Kickr and why it may appear to be smoothed, but either way at the end of each workout all things seemed to be in line. I should note that since applying the beta I am no longer doing spindowns on the Kickr and I never adjusted the belt for fear of messing up what I feel is a good thing now. I may be wrong about the spindowns, but it seems to me that if the Quarq is in control and I zero the offset of the Quarq at the beginning of the workout that is all that matters. Even if the Kickr does drift as it warms up the Quarq's output to TrainerRoad will adjust the resistance as needed.

In summary and crude form I admit, perceived effort for various duration and intensity of intervals seem to be on par. Things are now going well indoors and are reflected in a positive way based on what is being achieved out on the road.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Felt_Rider] [ In reply to ]
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Felt.... Krispy is not using the Wahooligan App. His KICKR is controlling TR... but the data being recorded by TR is coming from his SRM.

I think :)
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Donzo98] [ In reply to ]
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Donzo98 wrote:
Felt.... Krispy is not using the Wahooligan App. His KICKR is controlling TR... but the data being recorded by TR is coming from his SRM.

I think :)

That's what I was thinking as well, but wasn't sure. I don't know? I am probably confused as usual. :-)
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Felt_Rider] [ In reply to ]
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Felt_Rider wrote:
Donzo98 wrote:
Felt.... Krispy is not using the Wahooligan App. His KICKR is controlling TR... but the data being recorded by TR is coming from his SRM.

I think :)

That's what I was thinking as well, but wasn't sure. I don't know? I am probably confused as usual. :-)

I guess the benefit is that you can clearly see how off the KICKR is onscreen, in real time ....prior to and after his belt tensioning fix.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Felt_Rider] [ In reply to ]
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my mind asplode

Felt_Rider wrote:
Donzo98 wrote:
Felt.... Krispy is not using the Wahooligan App. His KICKR is controlling TR... but the data being recorded by TR is coming from his SRM.

I think :)


That's what I was thinking as well, but wasn't sure. I don't know? I am probably confused as usual. :-)

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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Krispy2014] [ In reply to ]
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Krispy2014 wrote:
Deselecting "use power from electronic trainer" is the correct setting when using a Kickr with an external power meter. It allows TrainerRoad to record the power from an external power meter and display its power in the "actual power" field. But that's it.

this makes sense to me, but they state the opposite on the website...

"To use the power from your power meter, choose the "Use power from electronic trainer" option"

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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Donzo98] [ In reply to ]
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That is correct. I am not using the Wahoologan App. My Kickr is controlling TrainerRoad and the data being displayed and recorded is from my SRM.

My instructions allow you to calibrate your Kickr to match your power meter. Basically, you get a Kickr that measures power correctly. It's what was promised by Wahoo. No new firmware or Wahooligan app required.

I know my posts have been long-winded and perhaps confusing, but I didn't want people to mess up their Kickrs by skipping a step. I really recommend following my previous instructions closely, but very simply this is how the process calibrates your Kickr:

SIMPLE EXPLANATION OF HOW MY CALIBRATION INSTRUCTIONS WORK:

If your power meter reads lower than your Kickr, then your Kickr is not creating enough resistance. By tensioning the belt, more resistance will be created and your power meter will read higher. Using my instructions, you can use this fact to get your Kickr and power meter to very closely match.

Please use the full instructions, though, as it's important to loosen the tension before you start the calibration to prevent the belt from getting too tight after the calibration. It's also important to not do another spindown calibration after using the belt-tensioning calibration, as that will bring the Kickr back to its original state.

Additionally, I've mentioned that I don't believe it's now possible to control TrainerRoad using the current beta app without the Wahooligan app running as this was clearly stated by a Wahoo rep on this forum. He stated that you might get TrainerRoad to work with the beta tempoorarily, but that it would not be permanent and that the Wahoologan app always would always need to be running. The rep stated that this would change with the finished version of the firmware AND when TrainerRoad integrates the functionality in an update version of their TR software. Perhaps others have found a workaround, but I'm skeptical as there are reports from people in this forum that are achieving functionality that Wahoo and TrainerRoad say just isn't possible at this time.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [ericM40-44] [ In reply to ]
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ericM40-44 wrote:
Krispy2014 wrote:

Deselecting "use power from electronic trainer" is the correct setting when using a Kickr with an external power meter. It allows TrainerRoad to record the power from an external power meter and display its power in the "actual power" field. But that's it.


this makes sense to me, but they state the opposite on the website...

"To use the power from your power meter, choose the "Use power from electronic trainer" option"


Hm, I just checked and you're correct that the site says the opposite of what I wrote as far as the checkbox. Strange, as I'm definitely showing and recording power from my SRM with it unchecked. Confusing label. I'll have to experiement with the setting, but as I wrote before all is working well for me with the box unchecked and my SRM and Kickr connected under "devices."
Last edited by: Krispy2014: Feb 16, 15 7:53
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Krispy2014] [ In reply to ]
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Krispy2014 wrote:
That is correct. I am not using the Wahoologan App. My Kickr is controlling TrainerRoad and the data being displayed and recorded is from my SRM.

My instructions allow you to calibrate your Kickr to match your power meter. Basically, you get a Kickr that measures power correctly. It's what was promised by Wahoo. No new firmware or Wahooligan app required.

I know my posts have been long-winded and perhaps confusing, but I didn't want people to mess up their Kickrs by skipping a step. I really recommend following my previous instructions closely, but very simply this is how the process calibrates your Kickr:

SIMPLE EXPLANATION OF HOW MY CALIBRATION INSTRUCTIONS WORK:

If your power meter reads lower than your Kickr, then your Kickr is not creating enough resistance. By tensioning the belt, more resistance will be created and your power meter will read higher. Using my instructions, you can use this fact to get your Kickr and power meter to very closely match.

Please use the full instructions, though, as it's important to loosen the tension before you start the calibration to prevent the belt from getting too tight after the calibration. It's also important to not do another spindown calibration after using the belt-tensioning calibration, as that will bring the Kickr back to its original state.

Additionally, I've mentioned that I don't believe it's now possible to control TrainerRoad using the current beta app without the Wahooligan app running as this was clearly stated by a Wahoo rep on this forum. He stated that you might get TrainerRoad to work with the beta tempoorarily, but that it would not be permanent and that the Wahoologan app always would always need to be running. The rep stated that this would change with the finished version of the firmware AND when TrainerRoad integrates the functionality in an update version of their TR software. Perhaps others have found a workaround, but I'm skeptical as there are reports from people in this forum that are achieving functionality that Wahoo and TrainerRoad say just isn't possible at this time.


I think Krispy's plan is the BEST...

The way I see it is this:

1. Make SURE that your SRM or external power meter is calibrated properly.
2. Use Krispy's plan to "FIX" the KICKR.
3. Record power on TR any way you want... either from external PM or KICKR. After his fix... we won't even need another PM (which is the way it should be in the first place).

After it's working properly you can ride whatever bike you want on your KICKR (without an external PM)... and be sure the resistance is correct... as long as we don't do another spindown :) Then... all BETS ARE OFF!!
Last edited by: Donzo98: Feb 16, 15 8:01
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Krispy2014] [ In reply to ]
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Krispy2014 wrote:
ericM40-44 wrote:
Krispy2014 wrote:

Deselecting "use power from electronic trainer" is the correct setting when using a Kickr with an external power meter. It allows TrainerRoad to record the power from an external power meter and display its power in the "actual power" field. But that's it.


this makes sense to me, but they state the opposite on the website...

"To use the power from your power meter, choose the "Use power from electronic trainer" option"


Hm, I just checked and you're correct that the site says the opposite of what I wrote as far as the checkbox. Strange, as I'm definitely showing and recording power from my SRM with it unchecked. Confusing label. I'll have to experiement with the setting, but as I wrote before all is working well for me with the box unchecked and my SRM and Kickr connected under "devices."

Hence my post earlier regarding the TR setting. The TR website explanation is reversed and I pointed this out to them a few times. In speaking with them the theory is that with the option unchecked TR displays the power/cadence from your PM not the Kickr. Further working this with them the Kickr is supposed to function in ERG mode in this setting based on the readings from the PM. So just as a bike w/o PM, TR will adjust the Kickr in ERG mode based on the workout, but using the PM reading. Again this is from them through support emails etc.

--------------------------------------------------
Non-Swimming Duathlete
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Donzo98] [ In reply to ]
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My head really hurts now........ I have an SRM. So I deselected the box in TR (I have been wondering about this since the onscreen instructions in TR clearly say to check it). So now according to Krispy, TR is displaying the watts from my SRM. But my Kickr is controlling TR. So if in ERG mode and with the Kickr controlling TR (meaning the Kickr is paired to TR and is adjusting its (the Kickr) watts (resistance) to correspond with the required watts for the prescribed workout in TR, and if there is a difference of lets say 30 watts between the Kickr and my SRM, then how can the displayed watts be coming from my SRM???? It makes no sense to say TR is being controlled by the Kickr watts but displaying the SRM watts. How does that work if there is a large difference between the SRM display watts and the Kickr control watts? In ERG the Kickr watts will always be forced to the prescribed workouts watts. The SRM watts will still be different.
The whole point of all of this is that the Kickr watts must be the same (or within an acceptable range) to external PM's. The problem is the Kickr watts are not even close in many cases to the external PM's watts for many people.. One would think that there would be a way to adjust the kickr to match the PM. But doing spindowns, calibrations, etc is not working (maybe the belt option does). Another way to do it would be to have the ability to introduce the PM into the loop (so not just Kickr - TR but PM-Kickr-TR) with the PM watt readings replacing the kickr watts so that the PM watts are used to match the prescribed TR workout. But this would only help people who have an external PM. And this does not solve the question/issue of why are the kickr watts so off? There is obviously something very wrong with many of the kickr's and the watts generated or Wahoo would have fixed it by now. We don't see 30 watt differences between other/various external PM"s. The watts being generated by many of the Kickr's are just wrong and there appears to be no way to fix it. Wahoo is just scrambling to find a band aide but they can't...yet.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [ccassidy] [ In reply to ]
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ccassidy wrote:
My head really hurts now........ I have an SRM. So I deselected the box in TR (I have been wondering about this since the onscreen instructions in TR clearly say to check it). So now according to Krispy, TR is displaying the watts from my SRM. But my Kickr is controlling TR. So if in ERG mode and with the Kickr controlling TR (meaning the Kickr is paired to TR and is adjusting its (the Kickr) watts (resistance) to correspond with the required watts for the prescribed workout in TR, and if there is a difference of lets say 30 watts between the Kickr and my SRM, then how can the displayed watts be coming from my SRM???? It makes no sense to say TR is being controlled by the Kickr watts but displaying the SRM watts. How does that work if there is a large difference between the SRM display watts and the Kickr control watts? In ERG the Kickr watts will always be forced to the prescribed workouts watts. The SRM watts will still be different.
The whole point of all of this is that the Kickr watts must be the same (or within an acceptable range) to external PM's. The problem is the Kickr watts are not even close in many cases to the external PM's watts for many people.. One would think that there would be a way to adjust the kickr to match the PM. But doing spindowns, calibrations, etc is not working (maybe the belt option does). Another way to do it would be to have the ability to introduce the PM into the loop (so not just Kickr - TR but PM-Kickr-TR) with the PM watt readings replacing the kickr watts so that the PM watts are used to match the prescribed TR workout. But this would only help people who have an external PM. And this does not solve the question/issue of why are the kickr watts so off? There is obviously something very wrong with many of the kickr's and the watts generated or Wahoo would have fixed it by now. We don't see 30 watt differences between other/various external PM"s. The watts being generated by many of the Kickr's are just wrong and there appears to be no way to fix it. Wahoo is just scrambling to find a band aide but they can't...yet.


We know :) You basically just re-described the entire issue.

Question... when you switch off select/deselect the box in TR, do you see the watts change as expected (assuming your KICKR is over-reporting like mine is)?
Last edited by: Donzo98: Feb 16, 15 10:43
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [ccassidy] [ In reply to ]
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ccassidy wrote:
My head really hurts now........ I have an SRM. So I deselected the box in TR (I have been wondering about this since the onscreen instructions in TR clearly say to check it). So now according to Krispy, TR is displaying the watts from my SRM. But my Kickr is controlling TR. So if in ERG mode and with the Kickr controlling TR (meaning the Kickr is paired to TR and is adjusting its (the Kickr) watts (resistance) to correspond with the required watts for the prescribed workout in TR, and if there is a difference of lets say 30 watts between the Kickr and my SRM, then how can the displayed watts be coming from my SRM???? It makes no sense to say TR is being controlled by the Kickr watts but displaying the SRM watts. How does that work if there is a large difference between the SRM display watts and the Kickr control watts? In ERG the Kickr watts will always be forced to the prescribed workouts watts. The SRM watts will still be different.
The whole point of all of this is that the Kickr watts must be the same (or within an acceptable range) to external PM's. The problem is the Kickr watts are not even close in many cases to the external PM's watts for many people.. One would think that there would be a way to adjust the kickr to match the PM. But doing spindowns, calibrations, etc is not working (maybe the belt option does). Another way to do it would be to have the ability to introduce the PM into the loop (so not just Kickr - TR but PM-Kickr-TR) with the PM watt readings replacing the kickr watts so that the PM watts are used to match the prescribed TR workout. But this would only help people who have an external PM. And this does not solve the question/issue of why are the kickr watts so off? There is obviously something very wrong with many of the kickr's and the watts generated or Wahoo would have fixed it by now. We don't see 30 watt differences between other/various external PM"s. The watts being generated by many of the Kickr's are just wrong and there appears to be no way to fix it. Wahoo is just scrambling to find a band aide but they can't...yet.

It makes sense if you calibrate your Kickr according to my instructions. The Kickr will then read power very closely to your power meter, so having TR control the Kickr while reading/recording power from your power meter will work well. Once calibrated you could then use the Kickr without the power meter, but I would keep it connected to verify the Kickr's accuracy (your target and actual power should be close) and to make sure you're recording the most accurate power possible.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Donzo98] [ In reply to ]
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The belt retensioning works, I have done it to my brand new kickr (25w+ reading) and it works good.
There is a slight drift of about 3-4w after 90mins but that is fine.

The problem with the kickr is that basically when it expects the erg unit to put a resistance of Xwatts,
less electronic resistance than Xwatts is being produced and/or the power reading part of it is reading incorrectly.
The lost resistance could be lost in belt tension resistance and causing the bad data.

All of the electronics are in the lower section, not the upper cassette hub wheel. It might have been a better
idea to put the power measuring part in the cassette hub similar to a powertap, that would eliminate belt tension
losses from the power reading.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Krispy2014] [ In reply to ]
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Krispy - you used a fairly low power level to set the belt tension but do you know if the new tension means power readings are close at much higher power levels as well? I have an early Kickr and its generally very close to my Quarq, although the variance between the 2 units is not linear - the difference is actually smaller at high power levels than at recovery/endurance levels. I'm thinking a change in belt tension will give a linear change across all power levels?
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Bigpikle] [ In reply to ]
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Bigpikle wrote:
Krispy - you used a fairly low power level to set the belt tension but do you know if the new tension means power readings are close at much higher power levels as well? I have an early Kickr and its generally very close to my Quarq, although the variance between the 2 units is not linear - the difference is actually smaller at high power levels than at recovery/endurance levels. I'm thinking a change in belt tension will give a linear change across all power levels?

I'm getting great results with watts in the mid to higher levels which for me, is 200-500 watts. The SRM and Kickr are within 5% of each other and more than close enough to use the Kickr effectively for training. There is a greater discrepancy in the <150 watt range, but that's just recovery zone so not too concerning. So no, after calibration my Kickr does not measure power EXACTLY the same as my SRM, but as DC Rainmaker correctly pointed out, this will never be possible with two power meters. It is very close, though and as I'm measuring the actual power from my power meter, the data I collect is accurate for my training plans. Working out with TrainerRoad I get an almost perfect resistance to reach the target power. I would suggest calibrating your Kickr using my instructions with a focus on the wattage range 75-120% of your ftp.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Krispy2014] [ In reply to ]
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Ditto. My post belt tensioning kickr has continued to be stable and matching my quarq and matches well over the normal range of wattages that I care about (haven't tried 1000 watts due to inability to do that!). For me it was the equivalent of setting the kickr's "offset". I wish I could have done that with SW instead of tweaking the belt tension, but in the end I'm happy.

Regarding the setting in TR. I'm continuing to use an ANT dongle and have TR display the power from my quarq. At this point I'm pretty confident that my kickr is right enough that I probably don't need to use that setting anymore and would be comfortable using the kickr without a second power meter. In fact, over the weekend I did some workouts where my quarq was reading off of the kickr and realized it was a need to recalibrate my quarq because the workout room was much colder than usual. My quarq calibrated from -260 to -230 and they matched again. I guess my quarq and my kickr have different temperature responses (no surprise); just one more failure mode to consider and correct for...
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