I race triathlon. My last race was Cactus Man in Tempe...want my race time? Broke my collar bone in May while training for...you had it...triathlon.

I just see a massive difference between drafting than taking PEDs or course cutting.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

I think in IM though you have two very different sets of people taking part. You have those 'racing', say the top 25-50 in each age group, and in that category I can well believe the 10% figure - in fact I can imagine that it could be significantly higher.

However, when we're talking about all those people just trying to get round in under 17 hours - the one and done athletes - who make up the majority of the field I wouldn't have thought that the figure comes anywhere close to 10%. Am I still being naive?

I think the point Strobro is trying to make, and I'm not convinced I agree though I can see his argument, is better expressed through an analogy to basketball:

If you make contact with a player whilst he is shooting, you have committed a penalty, and a penalty shot is awarded. Although that contact is not allowed it is viewed as a strategic part of the game, and certainly isn't considered to be cheating. However, grab hold of the player whilst he is shooting and push him over whilst he is shooting and you are ejected from the court (for cheating?). I think Strobro is saying that since we punish drafting with a penalty of 5 mins, not ejection/DQ/etc then drafting is analogous to making contact with a player whilst shooting. Is that cheating - I think that's a moral call that everyone is entitled to make their own decision on.

Pretty much where my line of thinking is.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

My problem is that triathlon isn't a sport that can "fairly" officiate itself. So if your saying that it's only a penalty if you get caught, that's part of the issue. Or to "use" the rules for your advantage- IE- take advantage of not enough officials to draft your way for to a 20 min advantage in the exchange that you may or may not even get caught....that's a fucked up process. So it's the whole "dont hate the player, hate the game".


Now of course the answer isn't to have no officials, because we know that the cat is out of the bag. So what I'm suggesting is that, triathlon is too easily gamed. And it's not getting better. So whatever that means, it is what it is.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Quote straight out the dictionary...

cheat
tʃiːt/
verb
gerund or present participle: cheating

1. 
   1.
   act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage.
   

And no I don't need your times...

I don't think he's saying it's to do with whether you get caught that is the issue, it's that when you do get caught the punishment is only small.

I just see a massive difference between drafting than taking PEDs or course cutting.

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The actual race time benefits likely are closer than you think, but I know what your saying. One is a "calculated" premeditated event while the other is more on the fly type of event, just an "penalty", where as the other one is a measured way to "cheat".

But you take an IM, you could probaly gain as much time in drafting then if you did an "honest" race on EPO (IE- no drafting, followed race day rules). The time would probaly be pretty damn close to each other.

Which is kinda why if your applying your logic of just using the rules to your advantage, you would "draft until you get caught" every race and simply serve your penalty 10000x over taking drugs.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

This is probably an unpopular opinion on this forum, but i just don't care if those 14, 15+ hour finishers are taking t, etc as prescribed by their doctor. Most probably don't know the doping rules and if they're not winning awards then it just doesn't matter.

Sure and i'm not saying they don't work; all i'm saying is that it would be nice to see some better quantification of the drugs' effects.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

IIRC, he's in your AG; did you do that race??? Did you beat the dirty rotten doper???

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

There was that article a few years back where athletes were anonymously polled after an Ironman event. I know it was in Europe, Germany maybe, and the number that admitted doping was 1/6 or 1/7. Sorry I don't remember the exact details and don't feel like searching for it.

That's over in Europe where T clinics and usage are nowhere near as prevalent as in the USA.

Maybe I'm with Herbert that it's 10% across the entire AG field, maybe it's less, but it's probably higher in the M35+ AGs and the pointy end of those AGs is very suspect, IMO.

40% drafting. I don't think it's anywhere close to that. I'm talking willful and blatant drafting. Not the I was in someone's draft zone for a bit too long at some point in the race. Then it would be 100%. :-)

5% cheating otherwise. I don't think it's that close either.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

I did do that race but he got me by 90 seconds or so. He started several minutes behind me and due to the rolling start, I never saw him or knew he was coming. He ran the fastest marathon of the day and ran me down in the last 2 miles or so.

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blog

yellow with a pinkish tint

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USAT Level II- Ironman U Certified Coach

It is really meant as a discussion point as I often hear this question. And I have no data to back this up but this seems fairly reasonable

With social media there seems to be even more need to impress

There is a difference between drafting and doping, but they're both breaking the rules.

The main difference is the LENGTH of the time penalty: for one it's couple minutes, for the other it's years.

In both cases, it's only if you get caught though. So they're not different in that aspect.

In both cases, it's still breaking the rules.

Breaking the rules is cheating. Simple as that.

Saying drafting is not cheating is kind of like saying a white lie is not a lie because it's about something perceived as minor. It's still a lie.

Doesn't matter if you're drafting, or doped to the gills, you are breaking the rules. Both are cheating at their fundamental basis.

The amount of punishment doesn't matter. It's the fact you broke the rules.

Saying that because the punishment is smaller means its not cheating is silly. And might be cheating on a small scale, but it's still cheating.

If one guy robbed a 7-Eleven and gets away with 50 bucks, and a different dude robs a Bank and gets away with 50000, they're still both thieves. The scale of the crime may be different, but it's still a crime.

What is the point of this post?

I could say the same to you

Accolades + sustained competitiveness + increased virility meets expendable income?

Who’da thunk it?

40+, I think your first figure is low (for the top %-age of the AG. I just don’t see how some of the physiques and performances I see are natural. I think your number might be right for the overall, but low for the top 25% of some (at least male) AGs.

In basketball though the scores are pretty much, what, 75 to 85 or even 95 to 103. Factor in shooting percentages and you get into the combo of the two teams having 240 shots at 75%.

So, if both teams reach the bonus in both halves that's 40 fouls combined for teams per game. 40/240 is 16%. Looked it up, my guess was darn close, average NCAA team gets 18.x fouls per game.

Meaning with that many shots on goal, you have the chance to directly affect your competitor frequently in the game. And any unfair advantage normally assigned as cheating isn't so, as your competitor is right there.

The reason it's cheating in something like triathlon is that all the other competitors leave the water at different times. Not everyone gets to play the same drafting game. Because of that, it's a cheat instead of a strategy.

Your analogy works better with "blocking" in track cycling than it does to drafting in triathlon.

I wouldn't be able to guess, and your guess is as good as mine :)

With that said, I don't race against any of you, even when I race. I race against myself. I'm not looking for a podium finish or Kona slot. I'm looking forward to challenging my mind and body to do what seems impossible. I'm a mid pack racer (goals of sub 12hr), and there's no need for me to take any type of item that would risk my health to gain a few minutes on the course. This is for bragging rights 30 years from now when I'm 75, not for Thanksgiving / Christmas bragging rights with extended family / friends in 2018.

As it relates to drafting.... 40% seems high, but as a swimmer who exits mid pack, the first 20 miles is busy, and causes course congestion. Do "I" draft? No, not intentionally. Are there people within 30 feet of each other? Yes, it's impossible (I think) to string out separation of 30 feet between people during the 1st portion of the race for those exiting mid-pack swimming. I was recently in a race where somebody latched onto my rear tire for 10 miles, and that was not the norm, and after a couple of warnings for him to back off, I held out my hand to the next moped / course marshal to capture his race #. Again, not normal, and hope to think that it's far less than 40%. But, even it if is, I can only control MY race and MY actions. At the end of the day (end of the race), I don't care if they beat me by 10 minutes or more. And, unless you're at the point where you're looking for Kona slot or some podium, I'm not sure why others care when others beat them by a few minutes.

Ironman is bigger than a race against people. For me, it's a race against myself and my own demons, limitations, abilities, and skills.

(Note: I fully understand that others might have serious disagreements with my post. That's fine. We're all doing this for different reasons, and I'm willing to share my motivations for doing this as a mid-pack middle-aged guy trying to live a little longer and a little healthier than if I were to be watching football, drinking beer, and talking about my high school glory days)

Jhanley wrote:
What is the point of this post?
I could say the same to you


Sorry?

It's Herbert...

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

I hold a similar opinion although I certainly don't object to the casual dopers getting suspended if for some reason they are caught. I would guess that some MOP/BOP athletes are doping inadvertently (i.e., they think a Dr's prescription makes it OK), and others might simply be trying to buy some free speed. But here's the deal: if an athlete is MOP/BOP because they are unwilling to invest as much time training as the top guys/gals in their AG, and they aren't willing to lose the extra 20-30 lbs they are carrying, then all the PEDs in the world are not going to move them up significantly.

That is why the focus needs to be on the podium, and in particular, outlier performances that are a full standard deviation above the rest of their near peers. Looking at results, I think 10% is probably as good a guess as any, but I would not be surprised in the least to learn it was higher.