Damn there is some serious head in the sand going on here about AG doping

USA cycling is banning 1 person per month with their anti doping program.

USAT triathlon doesn't give a rats ass about age group doping.
ITU doesn't give a rats ass about doping
WTC does some testing at Kona and 70.3 Worlds. Almost every year there is an athlete at Kona who refuses to take their drug test.

FFS people pull your head out of your ass

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

I think you are very low on the first two, probably about right on the last one. After hearing what some coaches have been doing over the years, I figure more like 25% of AG'ers would not pass a pro drug test. Now if you just narrow it down to like 6 drugs, probably 20%.

And virtually all of them would"NOT" get a TUE for their T supplements(or others), which would be the most sought after drug. A lot more would be doing asthma drugs, but many could switch to ones that are either legal, or they could get a TUE if bad enough. And dont kid yourselves, there are plenty doing EPO and steroids.

And the funny thing is that most of them are not competitive, just folks doing drugs because their coach told them it was ok if the doctor prescribed it. There are some pre meditated cheaters, and all over the competitive spectrum. It is not just about winning races, people want to look better to their peers and have a better story. IT doesnt take much ego to cross over to the dark side, so I really do think Herbert's guess is low.

As for drafting, it is low too. You have outliers like Texas where maybe it was 90%, and we have proof of that. Perhaps there are races where it is much harder and the number is 20%, but by and large since most tough races are closing and faster, flatter ones are taking their place, that number is probably closer to 60%.

And to all the other offenses, most have been laid out, didn't see running the finish with your kid or friend. That probably happens more than we know and gets looked past..

Nobody?

AG triathlete that qualified for kona 2018. Was tested the day before his qualifying race.
https://www.usada.org/...ves-doping-sanction/

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blog

I would guess the 10% number is a bit high for younger age groups, but a bit low for the older men. I would guess it is about right overall.

+1 on the above, I think desert dude nailed it. When you get to Kona podiums (or any other major world level point of the spear), if you were a fly on the wall watching these folks as the invisible man day in & day out--you may find that number is higher yet.

Herbert, you forgot to mention that statistically (historically), 63.7% of of all statistics are made up. (Add your own pink where applicable.)

It should be mentioned that there are a decent amount of people that are “doping” and don’t even know it. How many have taken Claritin D right before a race? Gotten an IV to “re-hydrate”? Take testosterone because their PCP said their T levels are low? The list goes on...

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blog

This is wrong to me and folks that look at it like this are exactly the problem. There are rules, and if you break them there are consequences. Drafting is against the rules, and “against the rules” does mean cheating. And therefore deserves a penalty. I can’t think of anything that is against the rules yet not cheating. Those are the same thing to me.

Your supporting arguments from other sports only serve to bolster an opinion that those that look to circumvent rules as long and as often as they can get away with it can therefore still feel like they are within the bounds of doing the right thing, which unfortunately is an opinion others obviously share (hence the numbers Herbert threw out for discussion).

There ar no drafters in Heaven. (Quote from Carl Bonner)

Cheers,

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thechromedome
http://www.favoritefinishlines.blogspot.com
http://www.cupcakecartel.org
My 20% off code for 2018 FS Series races: tricred18
"there are no drafters in heaven" - C Bonner

Based on TheStroBro's argument I guess doping is not cheating either - because there is a penalty. WTF

You started a thread about cheating in Ironman and then said the biggest portion was drafting, which is not cheating per the rule book but a time penalty.


Isn't the time penalty for cheating?

So this is the issue with triathlon and officiating/rules. We want triathlon to be like golf where "integrity" and "call your own fouls" is the norm, but then we add the officials to officiate the event like an college football game...in that you're only in a penalty if you are caught. How many times have athletes turned themselves "in" for a drafting penalty when the official was 8 miles away on the course?

But we want you to race according to the rules whether an official is there or not, and we hope you do, but then we sorta lost this whole "faith" in each other to do the "right thing".


Where I think Strobro is wrong is, he's incorrect about what is "cheating". "Cheating" isn't an outcome, it actually is an act that is irregardless of the outcome. You can "cheat" by drafting and not get caught. Doesn't mean you didn't cheat. It means you broke the rules but weren't held accountable for it. In actuality that's the whole issue. We lost integrity in our sport, at some point. I have no clue when it became this draftfest type of mindset? Over crowded courses, IE $$ greed? So I'm not blaming anyone, I just think the sport lost it's way.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I think what strobro is getting at is that whether or not you are drafting within the rules can sometimes be a judgement call, ie you judge you are outside of the draft zone but you aren't. Blatant riding on someone's wheel is something different. When you apply the issue of judgement to other areas of 'cheating' it is much less murky. ie you either complete the course or you've cut it.

You're not aware then that DHEA is on wada's banned list? (In addition to being illegal in Canada)
https://www.wada-ama.org/...imes/anabolic-agents

You can buy it in various forms at GNC for like $20 a bottle. There's lots of people out there that use it (correctly or incorrectly) as a "wellness" supplement.

THC is also a banned substance, but lots of people enjoy smoking a bleezy or popping a gummy bear/macaroon. It's easy to get in your local corner store or dispensary in Canada and several states in the US, or from the usual friend of a friend method.

I have not read the thread but I think your 40% estimate of intentional drafting is waaaayyy too high. I see very little purposeful drafting. I see people who are too lazy to do what's required to avoid an unintentional I fraction but I don't see many trying to cheat. Just a few. I've seen none this year in St. George, IM Boulder or IM 70.3 Boulder.

As for doping who knows but I think a higher percentage of cheaters are MOP men on testosterone so they can feel young again, not because they want to go to Kona.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

That's definitely part of it.

My point here overall is that cheating leads to banishment/suspension.

In rugby which I lean on all the time, but same you can look at other sports as well. We have the Laws of the Game/Rules. Laws talk about what is allowed during those 80 minutes of play.

Then you have the regulations. Regulations talk about a variety of things, PEDs is one of them. Another is qualification for your international team by residence, ancestry, or birthright etc.

Usage of PEDs/EPO, altering others equipment would lead to banishment.

Referees/Race Officials apply the laws of the game/rules of the race and you receive a penalty, serve penalty and continue.

Judicial Panels rule on violations of the regulations.

Making Triathlon like golf, does the WTC have hotline we can call so that we give bib numbers of those drafting?

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Are you referring to testosterone only? Or do you think AG’ers are actually doing EPO?

Those original numbers are interesting. Where did they come from?
I do love this conversation-it needs to be had.



the sad thing is that the 'establishment' doesn't care about the violation of the rules
and since it's expensive, and costly to the IM brand (and others) to risk calling out the 'cheats', they will not pursue it aggressively

I'd certainly piss in any cup they wanted to hand me to prove I'm clean, but I'd bet if you even gave 10 people consecutively cups to piss in, there would be several who'd refuse.

The comment about losing accountability seems true to me.



Can you link any studies? You know, since it's been done before and 'routinely comes back 10-15%'...


And for the record, I think there is a HUGE difference between 'cheating' and breaking the rules. I'm quite certain many have done the latter, without even realizing it. Like taking a drink from their wife, staying in the draft zone for a few minutes behind a pelaton, riding on the left for a long time and blocking, screaming at someone who won't stay right, throwing away the bottle in the wrong place (outside assistance, drafting, blocking, code of conduct violation, abandonment).

http://www.ironman.com/~/media/0325ab36a43f4803a47938cb16db1ec8/2018%20ironman%20competition%20rules%20%20english%20version%2017april2018%20%20%20clean%20final.pdf

Putting EPO in oneself, purposely taking steroid derrivatives or T to be able to train/recover better-well, that's cheating to me, and beyond reproach.

Dale

*edited to add:
and I'm not even talking about normal, appropriate meds which many athletes are on but don't bother getting a TUE as they are not competitive.
Advair, Albuterol, Diuretics, Pseudofed, Cannibus, Glucocorticoids, Beta blockers (lots of athlete's with AFIB, just sayin' )

Not sure if these all apply to triathlon specifically but they are on the WADA list
https://www.wada-ama.org/...t/what-is-prohibited

I was there. Pitiful. Somebody snitched on him for sure. But that is one dude in about 15,000 partucipants in IM in The USA and he was a wannabe pro whose job he felt depended on his success.
Obviously I don’t know but I can’t imagine many people are doing that. It’s expensive dangerous, not available, and unlike other methods it is completely impossible to justify. Idiots might think testosterone from a doc is justified, or that everybody is else drafting, but EPO? I don’t see it.

I’ve experienced a local middle of the pack age grouper admit to me he bought EPO with the intent to race while using it. He claims he didn’t, but at that point he was already using testosterone, asthma inhalers and a bunch of other crap I had never heard of, according to what he felt comfortable telling me.

It’s out there and very available with little effort, sadly.

Cheers,

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thechromedome
http://www.favoritefinishlines.blogspot.com
http://www.cupcakecartel.org
My 20% off code for 2018 FS Series races: tricred18
"there are no drafters in heaven" - C Bonner

My point here overall is that cheating leads to banishment/suspension.

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I feel like your point is more that it's only cheating if you are caught yes? So someone could cut the course, finish and if not caught, they didn't cheat right?

Which is why I think your using a more outcome pov while I'm saying cheating is cheating regardless of the outcome. Especially in a sport like triathlon that should have much more "fair" play than what we currently have. There is no way in hell we can officiate this event properly.


Your a rugby guy. It would be like only having officials in the middle of the field and the goal lines have no one watching, so if you "cheat" and feel ok about doing that, you can. Or an NFL game where you only officiated 5 yards of the line of scrimmage and then went downfield every 8th play, so the other 7 plays, it's up to each individual to do the "right thing". Or NBA to officiate where inside the paint wasn't officiated except every 8th possession, and that's where all the fouls occur. It would make no sense to have an sport officiated that way. But that's how triathlon is officiated. It's an impossible sport to officiate.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Get out of our thread as you have no idea. Have I drafted yes. I prefer to call it flouting with the drafting zone as I don't blatantly wheel suck but know I am maybe within the zone at times. I know I am cheating but I get caught up when a pack with blatantly drafting/cheating comes passed me at the end of the Ironman and I am cooked. They and me are cheating and the very few people you see who don't get caught up in it are not cheating. If you cheat you drafting you get a short time penalty, if you cheat doping you get a long time penalty. Why are you even trawling the Slowtwitch forum if you don't even do the sport and have no idea?

We just have different viewpoints. There is a dramatic difference between doping and drafting.

I had a long post just written, but it probably won't explain how the vast majority of people look at what is a penalty vs what is cheating.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Just in my small town, a friend showed me his Low T results, knowing I am vocal against dopers, and told me he has to start taking it to be normal again. Said he got tested because he was weak. No, you are weak because you don't train and you want to be fast. He is suppose to do Louisville this year. Not sure since I got so pissed, told him he can't race and stopped talking to him after he continued to train coming into IM Louisville. He will be lucky to break 15 hours. Stupid. A lady got popped for T and served her ban, another male friend put on 25 pounds of pure muscle and has to take 'a lot of stuff' to stay normal. Not sure what a lot of stuff means and I didn't want to ask. He is a 14 hour IM finisher. Finally, a guy I trained with last year told me he doped, but stopped after testicle cancer. I have a feeling he still does though and I stopped training with him as well. People are dopes for thinking it is rare. Knowing what I know now I would say doping won't make people great athletes. I think it's misunderstood by most people that want a magic pill. It's a shame because 3 of these were close friends. My wife shakes her head when I tell her I am not talking to them anymore. She thinks I am an asshole, lol.

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http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com

If your buddy has low T and is taking Test specifically because of triathlon that's hilarious. Getting back to normal levels via legal prescription has massive benefits. Granted...he may have low T because he may have other issues. I had low T because of sleep apnea.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Ephedrine would be another banned substance that can be bought at GNC and/or many GNC-like stores.

Hello Herbert and All,

Is it in God we trust and all others bring data?

Or trust but try to verify?

Or just guess?

If the Triathlon Community is really concerned about the integrity of the sport .... how much more officiating and drug testing is appropriate? .... are we willing to pay? ...... and how would the increased costs affect Ironman Race sales?

Ironman Races are a business after all.

In the near term new technology is on the side of cheaper .... faster ..... less invasive drug testing ... and could mitigate the WAG suspicions of drug use.

https://www.news-medical.net/...g-test-athletes.aspx

Excerpt:

It will now be easier, faster and cheaper to catch athletes who take performance-enhancing drugs.

"A new way of testing blood and urine developed by University of Waterloo [Canada] researchers cuts down the time required to analyze samples from 30 minutes to 55 seconds. They're working to reduce it even further to 10 seconds per sample by using a fully automated workflow.

"That's fast enough to screen every Olympic athlete every day," said Dr. Germán Augusto Gómez-Ríos, a postdoctoral fellow with Waterloo's Pawliszyn Research Group.

When it comes to large-scale drug screening, the cost is also a factor. The group is working with industry to reduce the cost from an average of between $20 to $100 to just a few dollars per sample."



Drafting on the other hand is related to the number of riders on the course (also initially affected by mass swim start vs. sequenced swim start) ...... and I suspect that the number of riders is just going to keep increasing at Ironman Races if that model is profitable. I visualize a spectrum of one rider on the course and no drafting ........ to so many riders on the course that everybody is drafting ..... and an in between number of riders that allows for no drafting for each course. Courses with many loops would exacerbate the crowding since there is less overall real estate for each rider.

I suppose in a perfect world sensors on race bicycles could aggregate the cyclist time in the draft zone (minus allowed passing time) and using a clever algorithm (that also included a penalty tme for the run) ..... add an appropriate amount of time to the drafting cyclist's overall race time as a penalty .... with disqualiification for excessive drafting.

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Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster