Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Cheating in IRONMAN estimations
Quote | Reply
Someone earlier today asked me how much cheating there is in IRONMAN racing and I suggested the following numbers.

- At least 10% of all age groupers in IRONMAN dope
- At least 40% of all age groupers in IRONMAN draft willingly regularly
- At least 5% of all age groupers in IRONMAN cheat otherwise

These numbers however are not mutually exclusive.

What say you?
Last edited by: Herbert: Aug 25, 18 20:24
Quote Reply
Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I honestly have no idea about the 10% doping but that would surprise me purely based off the idea that I would guess 99% of dopers are doing it to stand on podiums, and only about 3-4?% of age groupers will ever be good enough to podium at an IM brand race even if they are doping. As a very tip of the spear age grouper that isn't doping, I'm already one against.

I also think 40% drafting is high as well. I've seen it occasionally but 40%? That has to be a slowtwitch skewed number after threads like IM texas. I think those numbers are due to a negativity bias more than anything else.

Benjamin Deal - Rookie Pro - Instagram - Andy Potts Racing
Deals on Wheels - Race reports, pictures, sponsors, and more!
Most recent blog post: St. George 70.3 Race Report
Most recent video: How I built a race ready triathlon bike on a budget
Quote Reply
Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
10% dope?! I would have guessed about 1%. I really hope you’re wrong!
Quote Reply
Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I think doping is more rife in triathlon and other sports than we would like to know. And it is not just front of the pack folks. And not all hard core stuff. But a very slippery slope.

As for drafting, maybe you are right that Texas skewed my view, but it is high. Look at videos from today's 70.3 in OZ. It is a very sad thing.
Quote Reply
Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
At least 90% of the people who beat me :-)
Quote Reply
Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
If any of your estimations are correct, I quit. Why bother?
Depressing thread :(

Team Zoot/Canyon So Cal
Quote Reply
Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [laughingfarmer] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
laughingfarmer wrote:
At least 90% of the people who beat me :-)

No response will be better than this one, close thread!
Quote Reply
Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I get that we triathletes are a delusional bunch, but seriously who would be dumb enough to spend money on something that certainly wont help your body in the long run for nothing more than say, dropping from 5:10 to 3:55 in a 70.3. Of course there are some people that will but no way it amounts to more than .1% of triathletes. Ill say that the other .9% are the pointy tippers getting the edge.

Also to clarify, by doping, I mean real advantageous drugs, not some supplement that is technically banned but not doing anything.

Benjamin Deal - Rookie Pro - Instagram - Andy Potts Racing
Deals on Wheels - Race reports, pictures, sponsors, and more!
Most recent blog post: St. George 70.3 Race Report
Most recent video: How I built a race ready triathlon bike on a budget
Quote Reply
Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
As much as I would like to think the drug use number is less but those numbers sound about ball park of or real world to me. Not sure people would want the thread shut down? I'm over the pro bashing threads...
Quote Reply
Post deleted by windschatten [ In reply to ]
Last edited by: windschatten: Aug 25, 18 21:31
Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
realbdeal wrote:
I get that we triathletes are a delusional bunch, but seriously who would be dumb enough to spend money on something that certainly wont help your body in the long run for nothing more than say, dropping from 5:10 to 3:55 in a 70.3. Of course there are some people that will but no way it amounts to more than .1% of triathletes. Ill say that the other .9% are the pointy tippers getting the edge.

Also to clarify, by doping, I mean real advantageous drugs, not some supplement that is technically banned but not doing anything.

Do you really think this large drop would occur with the best drugs??? That seems huge to me, i have always thought EPO or the like might take a person from say 4:30 to 4:05 but that is as big of a drop as i can imagine.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
Quote Reply
Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
No I just threw random numbers out there that are in the range of not being close to podium but might be some small time barrier someone might be trying to break.

Benjamin Deal - Rookie Pro - Instagram - Andy Potts Racing
Deals on Wheels - Race reports, pictures, sponsors, and more!
Most recent blog post: St. George 70.3 Race Report
Most recent video: How I built a race ready triathlon bike on a budget
Quote Reply
Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Herbert wrote:
Someone earlier today asked me how much cheating there is in IRONMAN racing and I suggested the following numbers.

- At least 10% of all age groupers in IRONMAN dope
- At least 40% of all age groupers in IRONMAN draft willingly regularly
- At least 5% of all age groupers in IRONMAN cheat otherwise

These numbers however are not mutually exclusive.

What say you?

- At least 90% of all age groupers in IRONMAN piss on the bike willingly regularly (saving time)
Quote Reply
Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ericmulk wrote:
realbdeal wrote:
I get that we triathletes are a delusional bunch, but seriously who would be dumb enough to spend money on something that certainly wont help your body in the long run
for nothing more than say, dropping from 5:10 to 3:55 in a 70.3. Of course there are some people that will but no way it amounts to more than .1% of triathletes. Ill say that the other .9% are the pointy tippers getting the edge.

Also to clarify, by doping, I mean real advantageous drugs, not some supplement that is technically banned but not doing anything.


Do you really think this large drop would occur with the best drugs??? That seems huge to me, i have always thought EPO or the like might take a person from say 4:30 to 4:05 but that is as big of a drop as i can imagine.


you should read this article:

https://www.outsideonline.com/1924306/drug-test


the upshot is that good drugs don't just give you a little edge. they put you in a different ballpark altogether.

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
Quote Reply
Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Herbert wrote:
- At least 10% of all age groupers in IRONMAN dope
I would guess at least 10% of Kona Qualifiers dope. But of all people doing Ironman across the world, I think that number would be closer to 1%

Herbert wrote:
- At least 40% of all age groupers in IRONMAN draft willingly regularly
At least 40% of all age groupers have illegally drafted. But I would say less than 10% do it willingly (and regularly). The others simply get caught up in the packs and don't make enough effort to get out of the draft.

Herbert wrote:
- At least 5% of all age groupers in IRONMAN cheat otherwise
Ignoring offences like urinating on the bike, I would think this number is well below 1%. There are over 1,000 competitors in any big race and I don't believe there are as many as 10 cheats in these races (ie. course cutting).

Unless you are referring to things like littering, receiving nutrition from friends, having a friend ride beside you while you run. While they are breaking the rules, if someone who beat me did that, I would not feel as though he/she cheated to beat me.
Quote Reply
Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
i think i've posted on this before, but i'm not sure why people continue to take shots in the dark at this.

there's actual peer-reviewed data on this, and a variety of teams have used a variety of methods to calculate doping prevalence among age-groupers.

(it's higher than 1%.)

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
Quote Reply
Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [iron_mike] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I'd have thought that the majority who are technically doping are probably doing it through things that they could get TUE for but think that they don't really apply to someone who will never get close to the pointy end of the race.
Quote Reply
Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
No way 10% dope and probably "only" testosterone for the one who do. I have won a few IM events clean and I am not a genetic freak by any measure. My competitors doping is not something I worry about. Nobody is doing EPO.

Drafting is higher than 40% at most races. Kona is the worst if you count borderline legal drafting. Lange drafted the whole race AGers in Kona draft a lot like the pros in Kona.
Quote Reply
Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [RobInOz] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
RobInOz wrote:
Ignoring offences like urinating on the bike

I thought you were supposed to pee on the bike? Pink (or is it?)

https://www.strava.com/athletes/23685202
Quote Reply
Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [DBF] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
DBF wrote:
No way 10% dope and probably "only" testosterone for the one who do. I have won a few IM events clean and I am not a genetic freak by any measure. My competitors doping is not something I worry about. Nobody is doing EPO.

Drafting is higher than 40% at most races. Kona is the worst if you count borderline legal drafting. Lange drafted the whole race AGers in Kona draft a lot like the pros in Kona.

again, you don't have to guess at this stuff. it's been studied and routinely comes back in the 10-15% neighborhood.

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
Quote Reply
Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
realbdeal wrote:
I get that we triathletes are a delusional bunch, but seriously who would be dumb enough to spend money on something that certainly wont help your body in the long run for nothing more than say, dropping from 5:10 to 3:55 in a 70.3.

In a sport where people routinely drop thousands or tens of thousands on wheels, superbikes, aero helmets, ceramic bearings, etc to shave seconds or minutes off their time, what makes you think that a significant percentage wouldn't spend money on doping that offers potentially greater gains? Given that there's practically no chance of getting caught as an AGer?
Quote Reply
Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [iron_mike] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
IF it’s really 10-15%, then those people are wasting their $ buying crappy drugs, because they don’t seem to be helping them much.

I’ve only encountered 1-2x over the years where somebody got a LOT faster in a fairly short period of time that made me go hmmm?
But maybe they just trained a lot harder?
No proof, so it’s just speculation on my part.
And even if so, the one guy at his new best wasn’t really much better than me at my best, so his performances weren’t “out of this world”.

Now drafting?
Nowadays it’s hard to find people who don’t. It’s an epidemic.
Even see it at my local club sprint race, makes me SMH.

The course cutters (who get caught) seem to get a lot of attention, making it seem like it’s happening more than it probably actually is.
I’d say that’s in the 1-2% range, if that.


float , hammer , and jog

Quote Reply
Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
cartsman wrote:
realbdeal wrote:
I get that we triathletes are a delusional bunch, but seriously who would be dumb enough to spend money on something that certainly wont help your body in the long run for nothing more than say, dropping from 5:10 to 3:55 in a 70.3.


In a sport where people routinely drop thousands or tens of thousands on wheels, superbikes, aero helmets, ceramic bearings, etc to shave seconds or minutes off their time, what makes you think that a significant percentage wouldn't spend money on doping that offers potentially greater gains? Given that there's practically no chance of getting caught as an AGer?

Because a lot of us AG'ers dropping that money do so because it is a fun, healthy hobby. Its not always about saving time, but rather fun to use nice equipment. Life is too short to ride on crap.... :)
Quote Reply
Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [T3_Beer] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
T3_Beer wrote:
laughingfarmer wrote:
At least 90% of the people who beat me :-)

No response will be better than this one, close thread!

Not me, posts like this inspire me more to train harder to beat the cheaters!! Rise above it all!!
Quote Reply
Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Herbert wrote:
Someone earlier today asked me how much cheating there is in IRONMAN racing and I suggested the following numbers.

- At least 10% of all age groupers in IRONMAN dope
- At least 40% of all age groupers in IRONMAN draft willingly regularly
- At least 5% of all age groupers in IRONMAN cheat otherwise

These numbers however are not mutually exclusive.

What say you?


- At least 10% of all age groupers in IRONMAN dope
If this were accurate, I too think it includes products that people don't even know are illegal and/or make very little difference. I also agree with those that say EPO is -not- common among AG'ers. It is not -that- easy to get, it is very expensive, it is dangerous if stored incorrectly, it is dangerous if too much used. I find it very hard to believe that even 1% of AG'ers use it. Yes I know there have been 'studies', but correct me if I'm wrong, those 'studies' are based on volunteer responses from a sample of people, hardly scientific.

- At least 40% of all age groupers in IRONMAN draft willingly regularly
I think this is only accurate if you truly measure the drafting strictly by the rules, X amount of meters. Probably lots of us are in the 'draft' zone sometimes without even realizing it or for a bit longer than we should be. Do I always know that I am say 14m behind someone vs 10m?? But if it is being implied that 40% are purposely riding inches from someones wheel like in a road race, I think that number is way high.

- At least 5% of all age groupers in IRONMAN cheat otherwise
As mentioned, if this -doesn't- include peeing, then I too think it is high. But maybe I am missing other ways that people cheat? I don't think many people try to, or are able to, cut course. Littering maybe? Accepting handouts (food or otherwise) from family members?
Quote Reply

Prev Next