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Cheating in IRONMAN estimations
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Someone earlier today asked me how much cheating there is in IRONMAN racing and I suggested the following numbers.

- At least 10% of all age groupers in IRONMAN dope
- At least 40% of all age groupers in IRONMAN draft willingly regularly
- At least 5% of all age groupers in IRONMAN cheat otherwise

These numbers however are not mutually exclusive.

What say you?
Last edited by: Herbert: Aug 25, 18 20:24
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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I honestly have no idea about the 10% doping but that would surprise me purely based off the idea that I would guess 99% of dopers are doing it to stand on podiums, and only about 3-4?% of age groupers will ever be good enough to podium at an IM brand race even if they are doping. As a very tip of the spear age grouper that isn't doping, I'm already one against.

I also think 40% drafting is high as well. I've seen it occasionally but 40%? That has to be a slowtwitch skewed number after threads like IM texas. I think those numbers are due to a negativity bias more than anything else.

Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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10% dope?! I would have guessed about 1%. I really hope you’re wrong!
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]
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I think doping is more rife in triathlon and other sports than we would like to know. And it is not just front of the pack folks. And not all hard core stuff. But a very slippery slope.

As for drafting, maybe you are right that Texas skewed my view, but it is high. Look at videos from today's 70.3 in OZ. It is a very sad thing.
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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At least 90% of the people who beat me :-)
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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If any of your estimations are correct, I quit. Why bother?
Depressing thread :(

Team Zoot So Cal
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [laughingfarmer] [ In reply to ]
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laughingfarmer wrote:
At least 90% of the people who beat me :-)

No response will be better than this one, close thread!
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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I get that we triathletes are a delusional bunch, but seriously who would be dumb enough to spend money on something that certainly wont help your body in the long run for nothing more than say, dropping from 5:10 to 3:55 in a 70.3. Of course there are some people that will but no way it amounts to more than .1% of triathletes. Ill say that the other .9% are the pointy tippers getting the edge.

Also to clarify, by doping, I mean real advantageous drugs, not some supplement that is technically banned but not doing anything.

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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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As much as I would like to think the drug use number is less but those numbers sound about ball park of or real world to me. Not sure people would want the thread shut down? I'm over the pro bashing threads...
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Last edited by: windschatten: Aug 25, 18 21:31
Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]
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realbdeal wrote:
I get that we triathletes are a delusional bunch, but seriously who would be dumb enough to spend money on something that certainly wont help your body in the long run for nothing more than say, dropping from 5:10 to 3:55 in a 70.3. Of course there are some people that will but no way it amounts to more than .1% of triathletes. Ill say that the other .9% are the pointy tippers getting the edge.

Also to clarify, by doping, I mean real advantageous drugs, not some supplement that is technically banned but not doing anything.

Do you really think this large drop would occur with the best drugs??? That seems huge to me, i have always thought EPO or the like might take a person from say 4:30 to 4:05 but that is as big of a drop as i can imagine.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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No I just threw random numbers out there that are in the range of not being close to podium but might be some small time barrier someone might be trying to break.

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Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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Herbert wrote:
Someone earlier today asked me how much cheating there is in IRONMAN racing and I suggested the following numbers.

- At least 10% of all age groupers in IRONMAN dope
- At least 40% of all age groupers in IRONMAN draft willingly regularly
- At least 5% of all age groupers in IRONMAN cheat otherwise

These numbers however are not mutually exclusive.

What say you?

- At least 90% of all age groupers in IRONMAN piss on the bike willingly regularly (saving time)
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
realbdeal wrote:
I get that we triathletes are a delusional bunch, but seriously who would be dumb enough to spend money on something that certainly wont help your body in the long run
for nothing more than say, dropping from 5:10 to 3:55 in a 70.3. Of course there are some people that will but no way it amounts to more than .1% of triathletes. Ill say that the other .9% are the pointy tippers getting the edge.

Also to clarify, by doping, I mean real advantageous drugs, not some supplement that is technically banned but not doing anything.


Do you really think this large drop would occur with the best drugs??? That seems huge to me, i have always thought EPO or the like might take a person from say 4:30 to 4:05 but that is as big of a drop as i can imagine.


you should read this article:

https://www.outsideonline.com/1924306/drug-test


the upshot is that good drugs don't just give you a little edge. they put you in a different ballpark altogether.

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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Herbert wrote:
- At least 10% of all age groupers in IRONMAN dope
I would guess at least 10% of Kona Qualifiers dope. But of all people doing Ironman across the world, I think that number would be closer to 1%

Herbert wrote:
- At least 40% of all age groupers in IRONMAN draft willingly regularly
At least 40% of all age groupers have illegally drafted. But I would say less than 10% do it willingly (and regularly). The others simply get caught up in the packs and don't make enough effort to get out of the draft.

Herbert wrote:
- At least 5% of all age groupers in IRONMAN cheat otherwise
Ignoring offences like urinating on the bike, I would think this number is well below 1%. There are over 1,000 competitors in any big race and I don't believe there are as many as 10 cheats in these races (ie. course cutting).

Unless you are referring to things like littering, receiving nutrition from friends, having a friend ride beside you while you run. While they are breaking the rules, if someone who beat me did that, I would not feel as though he/she cheated to beat me.
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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i think i've posted on this before, but i'm not sure why people continue to take shots in the dark at this.

there's actual peer-reviewed data on this, and a variety of teams have used a variety of methods to calculate doping prevalence among age-groupers.

(it's higher than 1%.)

____________________________________
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http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [iron_mike] [ In reply to ]
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I'd have thought that the majority who are technically doping are probably doing it through things that they could get TUE for but think that they don't really apply to someone who will never get close to the pointy end of the race.
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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No way 10% dope and probably "only" testosterone for the one who do. I have won a few IM events clean and I am not a genetic freak by any measure. My competitors doping is not something I worry about. Nobody is doing EPO.

Drafting is higher than 40% at most races. Kona is the worst if you count borderline legal drafting. Lange drafted the whole race AGers in Kona draft a lot like the pros in Kona.
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [RobInOz] [ In reply to ]
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RobInOz wrote:
Ignoring offences like urinating on the bike

I thought you were supposed to pee on the bike? Pink (or is it?)

https://www.strava.com/athletes/23685202
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [DBF] [ In reply to ]
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DBF wrote:
No way 10% dope and probably "only" testosterone for the one who do. I have won a few IM events clean and I am not a genetic freak by any measure. My competitors doping is not something I worry about. Nobody is doing EPO.

Drafting is higher than 40% at most races. Kona is the worst if you count borderline legal drafting. Lange drafted the whole race AGers in Kona draft a lot like the pros in Kona.

again, you don't have to guess at this stuff. it's been studied and routinely comes back in the 10-15% neighborhood.

____________________________________
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http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]
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realbdeal wrote:
I get that we triathletes are a delusional bunch, but seriously who would be dumb enough to spend money on something that certainly wont help your body in the long run for nothing more than say, dropping from 5:10 to 3:55 in a 70.3.

In a sport where people routinely drop thousands or tens of thousands on wheels, superbikes, aero helmets, ceramic bearings, etc to shave seconds or minutes off their time, what makes you think that a significant percentage wouldn't spend money on doping that offers potentially greater gains? Given that there's practically no chance of getting caught as an AGer?
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [iron_mike] [ In reply to ]
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IF it’s really 10-15%, then those people are wasting their $ buying crappy drugs, because they don’t seem to be helping them much.

I’ve only encountered 1-2x over the years where somebody got a LOT faster in a fairly short period of time that made me go hmmm?
But maybe they just trained a lot harder?
No proof, so it’s just speculation on my part.
And even if so, the one guy at his new best wasn’t really much better than me at my best, so his performances weren’t “out of this world”.

Now drafting?
Nowadays it’s hard to find people who don’t. It’s an epidemic.
Even see it at my local club sprint race, makes me SMH.

The course cutters (who get caught) seem to get a lot of attention, making it seem like it’s happening more than it probably actually is.
I’d say that’s in the 1-2% range, if that.


float , hammer , and jog

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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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cartsman wrote:
realbdeal wrote:
I get that we triathletes are a delusional bunch, but seriously who would be dumb enough to spend money on something that certainly wont help your body in the long run for nothing more than say, dropping from 5:10 to 3:55 in a 70.3.


In a sport where people routinely drop thousands or tens of thousands on wheels, superbikes, aero helmets, ceramic bearings, etc to shave seconds or minutes off their time, what makes you think that a significant percentage wouldn't spend money on doping that offers potentially greater gains? Given that there's practically no chance of getting caught as an AGer?

Because a lot of us AG'ers dropping that money do so because it is a fun, healthy hobby. Its not always about saving time, but rather fun to use nice equipment. Life is too short to ride on crap.... :)
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [T3_Beer] [ In reply to ]
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T3_Beer wrote:
laughingfarmer wrote:
At least 90% of the people who beat me :-)

No response will be better than this one, close thread!

Not me, posts like this inspire me more to train harder to beat the cheaters!! Rise above it all!!
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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Herbert wrote:
Someone earlier today asked me how much cheating there is in IRONMAN racing and I suggested the following numbers.

- At least 10% of all age groupers in IRONMAN dope
- At least 40% of all age groupers in IRONMAN draft willingly regularly
- At least 5% of all age groupers in IRONMAN cheat otherwise

These numbers however are not mutually exclusive.

What say you?


- At least 10% of all age groupers in IRONMAN dope
If this were accurate, I too think it includes products that people don't even know are illegal and/or make very little difference. I also agree with those that say EPO is -not- common among AG'ers. It is not -that- easy to get, it is very expensive, it is dangerous if stored incorrectly, it is dangerous if too much used. I find it very hard to believe that even 1% of AG'ers use it. Yes I know there have been 'studies', but correct me if I'm wrong, those 'studies' are based on volunteer responses from a sample of people, hardly scientific.

- At least 40% of all age groupers in IRONMAN draft willingly regularly
I think this is only accurate if you truly measure the drafting strictly by the rules, X amount of meters. Probably lots of us are in the 'draft' zone sometimes without even realizing it or for a bit longer than we should be. Do I always know that I am say 14m behind someone vs 10m?? But if it is being implied that 40% are purposely riding inches from someones wheel like in a road race, I think that number is way high.

- At least 5% of all age groupers in IRONMAN cheat otherwise
As mentioned, if this -doesn't- include peeing, then I too think it is high. But maybe I am missing other ways that people cheat? I don't think many people try to, or are able to, cut course. Littering maybe? Accepting handouts (food or otherwise) from family members?
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [windschatten] [ In reply to ]
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windschatten wrote:
T3_Beer wrote:
laughingfarmer wrote:
At least 90% of the people who beat me :-)


No response will be better than this one, close thread!


These two responses are just childish nonsense...

10% doping is actually low IMO, if you look at how many AGs "supplement" with "health" products most Pros won't touch.
Hormone precursors and all the gym-rat variety of supplements of unknown quality that do providing noticeable "gain".
So maybe 10% KNOW they take something that may pop them if they are not careful.
And probably another 10% that had been "crossing" over from strength/body-building/fitness scene, where supplements are considered part of the culture.

40% drafting sounds about ballpark...Not happening for all or at the same time, but half of the field drafting during an IM race at one time point or another is a reasonable number.

The 5% cheating otherwise not sure...I think that may be on the high side.
Given the great logistics of Ironman(R) races with plenty of timing mats.....still need whistle blowers, though.

.

Looks like your sarcasm meter is broken.....
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]
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It includes course cutting (including swimming inside corner buoys), motors, blocking others, illegal assistance as in feeding by friends and pacing, and other items we can't think of.

But as I said, I was asked to estimate :-)

SBRcanuck wrote:
- At least 5% of all age groupers in IRONMAN cheat otherwise
As mentioned, if this -doesn't- include peeing, then I too think it is high. But maybe I am missing other ways that people cheat? I don't think many people try to, or are able to, cut course. Littering maybe? Accepting handouts (food or otherwise) from family members?
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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Herbert wrote:
Someone earlier today asked me how much cheating there is in IRONMAN racing and I suggested the following numbers.

- At least 10% of all age groupers in IRONMAN dope
- At least 40% of all age groupers in IRONMAN draft willingly regularly
- At least 5% of all age groupers in IRONMAN cheat otherwise

These numbers however are not mutually exclusive.

What say you?

Herbert, I have not done an IM race in 3 years, but watched a few.

Let's start with willingly drafting.

I think the answer to this is <10%. It may visually look like a lot, but it's not almost half of the field. There would be 30% more who would situationally be drafting out of T1, but after a while they try to ride clean.

In terms of doping, it's a "don't care". Sure 10% may dope with stuff like T to look better and have more sex, but since only 3 get on the podium, it only matters if those dopers end up in the top 10. Largely we can't control what hobby athletes do to cheat themselves.

5% who cheat otherwise may be a bit high, but may not. Marc Roy at one point said they DQ around 20 people in most IM's that we never hear about. That's 1%, but those are the people getting caught. You may be bang on that 4% more get away with it.

Dev
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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I think far more would cheat if they knew they wouldn't get caught.

If you took away drug tests, eliminated Marshalls and had no one with cell phones or cameras, there would be far more trying to break the rules to improve their time.
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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If I really spent the time to train right I could probably break 9:00.


(get it, I'm cheating in my....estimation?)
Last edited by: trail: Aug 26, 18 7:35
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [DBF] [ In reply to ]
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DBF wrote:
. Nobody is doing EPO.

Someone was popped for EPO at the 2017 IM Florida

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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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Herbert wrote:
Someone earlier today asked me how much cheating there is in IRONMAN racing and I suggested the following numbers.

- At least 10% of all age groupers in IRONMAN dope
- At least 40% of all age groupers in IRONMAN draft willingly regularly
- At least 5% of all age groupers in IRONMAN cheat otherwise

These numbers however are not mutually exclusive.

What say you?

Does "doping" include people who take banned substances for improving performance AND people who take legally/morally prescribed medications for medical conditions that also happen to be banned? I would think separating these two groups would lower the numbers of the doping for speed category substantially.
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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Herbert, these numbers are #fakenews. They're way, way inflated.

For the total number of all athletes who have ever completed an Ironman, a fraction of less than 1% have doped. For the total number of athletes who are Top Ager's it's likelt higher, but I believe it's still a very low single percentage number.

For drafting the numbers are obviously going to be higher. But from my on-course experience of doing 5 Ironmans, all in North America, again it's a very low single percentage of athletes that are purposefully drafting all race as a strategy. This is based off seeing Top Ag'ers on out & back course, and seeing regular MOP'ers all around me.

Man by Nature is Good. The triathlete who purposefully dopes/drafts/cheats is the outlier.
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [BT_DreamChaser] [ In reply to ]
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Purposely drafting does not only mean arriving at the venue with the plan to draft, it also includes all who see a peloton or group coming by and then deciding to also jump on.

As for doping that includes inhalers not properly prescribed and various pills from GNC to seek an edge. Be it actually helpful or not
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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What are these wonder pills from GNC that people speak of? I've been around awhile, and other than caffeine/niacin/B12, I'm not aware of any over-the-counter GNC type pills that would give anyone, anything more than a stomach ache. I've been racing since the 70's, and if there was such a thing, folks would have their pockets stuffed with them, at the races. I just haven't seen it. Links to products and brand names would be helpful. What about the pre-workout muscle pump stuff, the bodybuilders use?

Athlinks / Strava
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [BT_DreamChaser] [ In reply to ]
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BT_DreamChaser wrote:
Herbert, these numbers are #fakenews. They're way, way inflated.

For the total number of all athletes who have ever completed an Ironman, a fraction of less than 1% have doped. For the total number of athletes who are Top Ager's it's likelt higher, but I believe it's still a very low single percentage number.


you're entitled to your own opinion, but you sound awfully certain - what's this based on?

again, the research that's been done supports the 10-15% range for age groupers at ironman.

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http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [windschatten] [ In reply to ]
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How long is a piece of rope?
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]
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SBRcanuck wrote:


- At least 10% of all age groupers in IRONMAN dope
If this were accurate, I too think it includes products that people don't even know are illegal and/or make very little difference. I also agree with those that say EPO is -not- common among AG'ers. It is not -that- easy to get, it is very expensive, it is dangerous if stored incorrectly, it is dangerous if too much used. I find it very hard to believe that even 1% of AG'ers use it. Yes I know there have been 'studies', but correct me if I'm wrong, those 'studies' are based on volunteer responses from a sample of people, hardly scientific.

what makes the studies "hardly scientific?" they used well-validated methods and were peer-reviewed.

if EPO is too expensive and dangerous, what about testosterone, HGH, anabolics, cortisone, puffers, andro, etc. . .

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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Herbert wrote:
Someone earlier today asked me how much cheating there is in IRONMAN racing and I suggested the following numbers.

- At least 10% of all age groupers in IRONMAN dope
- At least 40% of all age groupers in IRONMAN draft willingly regularly
- At least 5% of all age groupers in IRONMAN cheat otherwise

These numbers however are not mutually exclusive.

What say you?

Let's break this down...10% on doping seems low to me. Everytime there's a trophy someone is going to cheat.

The drafting bit is a throw-away comment. Drafting is a penalty, therefore no cheating. Think a technical foul in Basketball or a yellow card in rugby. In fact anything you get a time penalty for is not cheating, it's what we call a penalty.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [iron_mike] [ In reply to ]
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iron_mike wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
realbdeal wrote:
I get that we triathletes are a delusional bunch, but seriously who would be dumb enough to spend money on something that certainly wont help your body in the long run
for nothing more than say, dropping from 5:10 to 3:55 in a 70.3. Of course there are some people that will but no way it amounts to more than .1% of triathletes. Ill say that the other .9% are the pointy tippers getting the edge.

Also to clarify, by doping, I mean real advantageous drugs, not some supplement that is technically banned but not doing anything.


Do you really think this large drop would occur with the best drugs??? That seems huge to me, i have always thought EPO or the like might take a person from say 4:30 to 4:05 but that is as big of a drop as i can imagine.


you should read this article:

https://www.outsideonline.com/1924306/drug-test


the upshot is that good drugs don't just give you a little edge. they put you in a different ballpark altogether.

Actually, i have read that article before but hads forgotten about it. It seems to me that the problem with that article is that the author did not really quantify his gains. If he had done say a 100 mi TT before the drugs and then after, we'd have a much better feel for his gains. Not sure why he did not do a more quantitative test.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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The penalties are not properly applied, nor are they tough enough. It is well known that drafting a long time in a race is easily faster even with a penalty tent session. Plus the legs are fresher. It is cheating.

TheStroBro wrote:
Herbert wrote:
Someone earlier today asked me how much cheating there is in IRONMAN racing and I suggested the following numbers.

- At least 10% of all age groupers in IRONMAN dope
- At least 40% of all age groupers in IRONMAN draft willingly regularly
- At least 5% of all age groupers in IRONMAN cheat otherwise

These numbers however are not mutually exclusive.

What say you?

Let's break this down...10% on doping seems low to me. Everytime there's a trophy someone is going to cheat.

The drafting bit is a throw-away comment. Drafting is a penalty, therefore no cheating. Think a technical foul in Basketball or a yellow card in rugby. In fact anything you get a time penalty for is not cheating, it's what we call a penalty.
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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he stopped wearing eyeglasses. old scars healed. without lifting, in his late 40s, he gained 12 pounds of muscle while cutting fat. he comes alive during the second 100 of a double century, and then rolls out of bed the next morning ready to do it again.

the drugs work!

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
Last edited by: iron_mike: Aug 26, 18 11:05
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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Herbert wrote:
The penalties are not properly applied, nor are they tough enough. It is well known that drafting a long time in a race is easily faster even with a penalty tent session. Plus the legs are fresher. It is cheating.


No, that's an opinion. That's not a fact. Anything you get a time penalty for is a penalty. If you have an issue with the application of the laws you need to start calling out race directors and officials more often for allowing it.

PEDs/Doping, course cutting, sabotaging competitor equipment is cheating.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
Last edited by: TheStroBro: Aug 26, 18 10:54
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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You may be the first one admitting to drafting and whitewashing it. Wow :-)
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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Never done an Ironman, so I've never drafted.

You started a thread about cheating in Ironman and then said the biggest portion was drafting, which is not cheating per the rule book but a time penalty. Unless courses are one loop, we've seen that it is almost impossible to not draft...and that Kona is a draft fest.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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>50% of people who do an Ironman are participants and not competitive. I would guess a significant number of them break the rules, but does anyone really care?
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [TriRugby] [ In reply to ]
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I thought peeing on the bike was the answer to drafting?! ( pink- ish)
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [BT_DreamChaser] [ In reply to ]
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Herbert, these numbers are #fakenews. They're way, way inflated.

For the total number of all athletes who have ever completed an Ironman, a fraction of less than 1% have doped.

A fraction of less than 1%? You seem certain so where did you get that figure from?
Last edited by: Sanuk: Aug 26, 18 12:11
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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I think this is a pretty good guesstimate. I think the other cheating is higher though. It amazes me what you see people do when they think no one is watching. You know there are a few wealthy, wealthy individuals that have a motor or magnetic wheel.

So if it’s this high for AGers, how high is it for pros!?

https://twitter.com/mungub
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [ In reply to ]
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Damn there is some serious head in the sand going on here about AG doping

USA cycling is banning 1 person per month with their anti doping program.

USAT triathlon doesn't give a rats ass about age group doping.
ITU doesn't give a rats ass about doping
WTC does some testing at Kona and 70.3 Worlds. Almost every year there is an athlete at Kona who refuses to take their drug test.

FFS people pull your head out of your ass

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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I think you are very low on the first two, probably about right on the last one. After hearing what some coaches have been doing over the years, I figure more like 25% of AG'ers would not pass a pro drug test. Now if you just narrow it down to like 6 drugs, probably 20%.

And virtually all of them would"NOT" get a TUE for their T supplements(or others), which would be the most sought after drug. A lot more would be doing asthma drugs, but many could switch to ones that are either legal, or they could get a TUE if bad enough. And dont kid yourselves, there are plenty doing EPO and steroids.

And the funny thing is that most of them are not competitive, just folks doing drugs because their coach told them it was ok if the doctor prescribed it. There are some pre meditated cheaters, and all over the competitive spectrum. It is not just about winning races, people want to look better to their peers and have a better story. IT doesnt take much ego to cross over to the dark side, so I really do think Herbert's guess is low.

As for drafting, it is low too. You have outliers like Texas where maybe it was 90%, and we have proof of that. Perhaps there are races where it is much harder and the number is 20%, but by and large since most tough races are closing and faster, flatter ones are taking their place, that number is probably closer to 60%.

And to all the other offenses, most have been laid out, didn't see running the finish with your kid or friend. That probably happens more than we know and gets looked past..
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [DBF] [ In reply to ]
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DBF wrote:
No way 10% dope and probably "only" testosterone for the one who do. I have won a few IM events clean and I am not a genetic freak by any measure. My competitors doping is not something I worry about. Nobody is doing EPO.

Drafting is higher than 40% at most races. Kona is the worst if you count borderline legal drafting. Lange drafted the whole race AGers in Kona draft a lot like the pros in Kona.

Nobody?

AG triathlete that qualified for kona 2018. Was tested the day before his qualifying race.
https://www.usada.org/...ves-doping-sanction/

blog
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [friesen] [ In reply to ]
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friesen wrote:
10% dope?! I would have guessed about 1%. I really hope you’re wrong!

I would guess the 10% number is a bit high for younger age groups, but a bit low for the older men. I would guess it is about right overall.
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
Damn there is some serious head in the sand going on here about AG doping

USA cycling is banning 1 person per month with their anti doping program.

USAT triathlon doesn't give a rats ass about age group doping.
ITU doesn't give a rats ass about doping
WTC does some testing at Kona and 70.3 Worlds. Almost every year there is an athlete at Kona who refuses to take their drug test.

FFS people pull your head out of your ass

+1 on the above, I think desert dude nailed it. When you get to Kona podiums (or any other major world level point of the spear), if you were a fly on the wall watching these folks as the invisible man day in & day out--you may find that number is higher yet.

Herbert, you forgot to mention that statistically (historically), 63.7% of of all statistics are made up. (Add your own pink where applicable.)
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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It should be mentioned that there are a decent amount of people that are “doping” and don’t even know it. How many have taken Claritin D right before a race? Gotten an IV to “re-hydrate”? Take testosterone because their PCP said their T levels are low? The list goes on...

blog
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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This is wrong to me and folks that look at it like this are exactly the problem. There are rules, and if you break them there are consequences. Drafting is against the rules, and “against the rules” does mean cheating. And therefore deserves a penalty. I can’t think of anything that is against the rules yet not cheating. Those are the same thing to me.

Your supporting arguments from other sports only serve to bolster an opinion that those that look to circumvent rules as long and as often as they can get away with it can therefore still feel like they are within the bounds of doing the right thing, which unfortunately is an opinion others obviously share (hence the numbers Herbert threw out for discussion).

There ar no drafters in Heaven. (Quote from Carl Bonner)

Cheers,

thechromedome
http://www.favoritefinishlines.blogspot.com
http://www.cupcakecartel.org
My 20% off code for 2018 FS Series races: tricred18
"there are no drafters in heaven" - C Bonner
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [thechromedome] [ In reply to ]
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Based on TheStroBro's argument I guess doping is not cheating either - because there is a penalty. WTF
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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You started a thread about cheating in Ironman and then said the biggest portion was drafting, which is not cheating per the rule book but a time penalty.


Isn't the time penalty for cheating?
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [thechromedome] [ In reply to ]
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So this is the issue with triathlon and officiating/rules. We want triathlon to be like golf where "integrity" and "call your own fouls" is the norm, but then we add the officials to officiate the event like an college football game...in that you're only in a penalty if you are caught. How many times have athletes turned themselves "in" for a drafting penalty when the official was 8 miles away on the course?

But we want you to race according to the rules whether an official is there or not, and we hope you do, but then we sorta lost this whole "faith" in each other to do the "right thing".


Where I think Strobro is wrong is, he's incorrect about what is "cheating". "Cheating" isn't an outcome, it actually is an act that is irregardless of the outcome. You can "cheat" by drafting and not get caught. Doesn't mean you didn't cheat. It means you broke the rules but weren't held accountable for it. In actuality that's the whole issue. We lost integrity in our sport, at some point. I have no clue when it became this draftfest type of mindset? Over crowded courses, IE $$ greed? So I'm not blaming anyone, I just think the sport lost it's way.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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I think what strobro is getting at is that whether or not you are drafting within the rules can sometimes be a judgement call, ie you judge you are outside of the draft zone but you aren't. Blatant riding on someone's wheel is something different. When you apply the issue of judgement to other areas of 'cheating' it is much less murky. ie you either complete the course or you've cut it.
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Dean T] [ In reply to ]
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Dean T wrote:
What are these wonder pills from GNC that people speak of? I've been around awhile, and other than caffeine/niacin/B12, I'm not aware of any over-the-counter GNC type pills that would give anyone, anything more than a stomach ache. I've been racing since the 70's, and if there was such a thing, folks would have their pockets stuffed with them, at the races. I just haven't seen it. Links to products and brand names would be helpful. What about the pre-workout muscle pump stuff, the bodybuilders use?

You're not aware then that DHEA is on wada's banned list? (In addition to being illegal in Canada)
https://www.wada-ama.org/...imes/anabolic-agents

You can buy it in various forms at GNC for like $20 a bottle. There's lots of people out there that use it (correctly or incorrectly) as a "wellness" supplement.

THC is also a banned substance, but lots of people enjoy smoking a bleezy or popping a gummy bear/macaroon. It's easy to get in your local corner store or dispensary in Canada and several states in the US, or from the usual friend of a friend method.
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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I have not read the thread but I think your 40% estimate of intentional drafting is waaaayyy too high. I see very little purposeful drafting. I see people who are too lazy to do what's required to avoid an unintentional I fraction but I don't see many trying to cheat. Just a few. I've seen none this year in St. George, IM Boulder or IM 70.3 Boulder.

As for doping who knows but I think a higher percentage of cheaters are MOP men on testosterone so they can feel young again, not because they want to go to Kona.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [fulla] [ In reply to ]
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fulla wrote:
I think what strobro is getting at is that whether or not you are drafting within the rules can sometimes be a judgement call, ie you judge you are outside of the draft zone but you aren't. Blatant riding on someone's wheel is something different. When you apply the issue of judgement to other areas of 'cheating' it is much less murky. ie you either complete the course or you've cut it.

That's definitely part of it.

My point here overall is that cheating leads to banishment/suspension.

In rugby which I lean on all the time, but same you can look at other sports as well. We have the Laws of the Game/Rules. Laws talk about what is allowed during those 80 minutes of play.

Then you have the regulations. Regulations talk about a variety of things, PEDs is one of them. Another is qualification for your international team by residence, ancestry, or birthright etc.

Usage of PEDs/EPO, altering others equipment would lead to banishment.

Referees/Race Officials apply the laws of the game/rules of the race and you receive a penalty, serve penalty and continue.

Judicial Panels rule on violations of the regulations.

Making Triathlon like golf, does the WTC have hotline we can call so that we give bib numbers of those drafting?

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Are you referring to testosterone only? Or do you think AG’ers are actually doing EPO?
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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Herbert wrote:
Someone earlier today asked me how much cheating there is in IRONMAN racing and I suggested the following numbers.

- At least 10% of all age groupers in IRONMAN dope
- At least 40% of all age groupers in IRONMAN draft willingly regularly
- At least 5% of all age groupers in IRONMAN cheat otherwise

These numbers however are not mutually exclusive.

What say you?


Those original numbers are interesting. Where did they come from?
I do love this conversation-it needs to be had.

TheStroBro wrote:
fulla wrote:
I think what strobro is getting at is that whether or not you are drafting within the rules can sometimes be a judgement call, ie you judge you are outside of the draft zone but you aren't. Blatant riding on someone's wheel is something different. When you apply the issue of judgement to other areas of 'cheating' it is much less murky. ie you either complete the course or you've cut it.

That's definitely part of it.

My point here overall is that cheating leads to banishment/suspension.

In rugby which I lean on all the time, but same you can look at other sports as well. We have the Laws of the Game/Rules. Laws talk about what is allowed during those 80 minutes of play.

Then you have the regulations. Regulations talk about a variety of things, PEDs is one of them. Another is qualification for your international team by residence, ancestry, or birthright etc.

Usage of PEDs/EPO, altering others equipment would lead to banishment.

Referees/Race Officials apply the laws of the game/rules of the race and you receive a penalty, serve penalty and continue.

Judicial Panels rule on violations of the regulations.

Making Triathlon like golf, does the WTC have hotline we can call so that we give bib numbers of those drafting?


the sad thing is that the 'establishment' doesn't care about the violation of the rules
and since it's expensive, and costly to the IM brand (and others) to risk calling out the 'cheats', they will not pursue it aggressively

I'd certainly piss in any cup they wanted to hand me to prove I'm clean, but I'd bet if you even gave 10 people consecutively cups to piss in, there would be several who'd refuse.

The comment about losing accountability seems true to me.

iron_mike wrote:
DBF wrote:
No way 10% dope and probably "only" testosterone for the one who do. I have won a few IM events clean and I am not a genetic freak by any measure. My competitors doping is not something I worry about. Nobody is doing EPO.

Drafting is higher than 40% at most races. Kona is the worst if you count borderline legal drafting. Lange drafted the whole race AGers in Kona draft a lot like the pros in Kona.


again, you don't have to guess at this stuff. it's been studied and routinely comes back in the 10-15% neighborhood.


Can you link any studies? You know, since it's been done before and 'routinely comes back 10-15%'...


And for the record, I think there is a HUGE difference between 'cheating' and breaking the rules. I'm quite certain many have done the latter, without even realizing it. Like taking a drink from their wife, staying in the draft zone for a few minutes behind a pelaton, riding on the left for a long time and blocking, screaming at someone who won't stay right, throwing away the bottle in the wrong place (outside assistance, drafting, blocking, code of conduct violation, abandonment).

http://www.ironman.com/~/media/0325ab36a43f4803a47938cb16db1ec8/2018%20ironman%20competition%20rules%20%20english%20version%2017april2018%20%20%20clean%20final.pdf

Putting EPO in oneself, purposely taking steroid derrivatives or T to be able to train/recover better-well, that's cheating to me, and beyond reproach.

Dale

*edited to add:
and I'm not even talking about normal, appropriate meds which many athletes are on but don't bother getting a TUE as they are not competitive.
Advair, Albuterol, Diuretics, Pseudofed, Cannibus, Glucocorticoids, Beta blockers (lots of athlete's with AFIB, just sayin' )

Not sure if these all apply to triathlon specifically but they are on the WADA list
https://www.wada-ama.org/...t/what-is-prohibited
Last edited by: dtoce: Aug 26, 18 15:08
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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I was there. Pitiful. Somebody snitched on him for sure. But that is one dude in about 15,000 partucipants in IM in The USA and he was a wannabe pro whose job he felt depended on his success.
Obviously I don’t know but I can’t imagine many people are doing that. It’s expensive dangerous, not available, and unlike other methods it is completely impossible to justify. Idiots might think testosterone from a doc is justified, or that everybody is else drafting, but EPO? I don’t see it.
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [DBF] [ In reply to ]
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I’ve experienced a local middle of the pack age grouper admit to me he bought EPO with the intent to race while using it. He claims he didn’t, but at that point he was already using testosterone, asthma inhalers and a bunch of other crap I had never heard of, according to what he felt comfortable telling me.

It’s out there and very available with little effort, sadly.

Cheers,

thechromedome
http://www.favoritefinishlines.blogspot.com
http://www.cupcakecartel.org
My 20% off code for 2018 FS Series races: tricred18
"there are no drafters in heaven" - C Bonner
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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My point here overall is that cheating leads to banishment/suspension.

------

I feel like your point is more that it's only cheating if you are caught yes? So someone could cut the course, finish and if not caught, they didn't cheat right?

Which is why I think your using a more outcome pov while I'm saying cheating is cheating regardless of the outcome. Especially in a sport like triathlon that should have much more "fair" play than what we currently have. There is no way in hell we can officiate this event properly.


Your a rugby guy. It would be like only having officials in the middle of the field and the goal lines have no one watching, so if you "cheat" and feel ok about doing that, you can. Or an NFL game where you only officiated 5 yards of the line of scrimmage and then went downfield every 8th play, so the other 7 plays, it's up to each individual to do the "right thing". Or NBA to officiate where inside the paint wasn't officiated except every 8th possession, and that's where all the fouls occur. It would make no sense to have an sport officiated that way. But that's how triathlon is officiated. It's an impossible sport to officiate.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Aug 26, 18 15:23
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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TheStroBro wrote:
Herbert wrote:
The penalties are not properly applied, nor are they tough enough. It is well known that drafting a long time in a race is easily faster even with a penalty tent session. Plus the legs are fresher. It is cheating.


No, that's an opinion. That's not a fact. Anything you get a time penalty for is a penalty. If you have an issue with the application of the laws you need to start calling out race directors and officials more often for allowing it.

PEDs/Doping, course cutting, sabotaging competitor equipment is cheating.
Get out of our thread as you have no idea. Have I drafted yes. I prefer to call it flouting with the drafting zone as I don't blatantly wheel suck but know I am maybe within the zone at times. I know I am cheating but I get caught up when a pack with blatantly drafting/cheating comes passed me at the end of the Ironman and I am cooked. They and me are cheating and the very few people you see who don't get caught up in it are not cheating. If you cheat you drafting you get a short time penalty, if you cheat doping you get a long time penalty. Why are you even trawling the Slowtwitch forum if you don't even do the sport and have no idea?
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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We just have different viewpoints. There is a dramatic difference between doping and drafting.

I had a long post just written, but it probably won't explain how the vast majority of people look at what is a penalty vs what is cheating.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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Just in my small town, a friend showed me his Low T results, knowing I am vocal against dopers, and told me he has to start taking it to be normal again. Said he got tested because he was weak. No, you are weak because you don't train and you want to be fast. He is suppose to do Louisville this year. Not sure since I got so pissed, told him he can't race and stopped talking to him after he continued to train coming into IM Louisville. He will be lucky to break 15 hours. Stupid. A lady got popped for T and served her ban, another male friend put on 25 pounds of pure muscle and has to take 'a lot of stuff' to stay normal. Not sure what a lot of stuff means and I didn't want to ask. He is a 14 hour IM finisher. Finally, a guy I trained with last year told me he doped, but stopped after testicle cancer. I have a feeling he still does though and I stopped training with him as well. People are dopes for thinking it is rare. Knowing what I know now I would say doping won't make people great athletes. I think it's misunderstood by most people that want a magic pill. It's a shame because 3 of these were close friends. My wife shakes her head when I tell her I am not talking to them anymore. She thinks I am an asshole, lol.

http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [timr] [ In reply to ]
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If your buddy has low T and is taking Test specifically because of triathlon that's hilarious. Getting back to normal levels via legal prescription has massive benefits. Granted...he may have low T because he may have other issues. I had low T because of sleep apnea.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Sim] [ In reply to ]
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Sim wrote:
Dean T wrote:
What are these wonder pills from GNC that people speak of? I've been around awhile, and other than caffeine/niacin/B12, I'm not aware of any over-the-counter GNC type pills that would give anyone, anything more than a stomach ache. I've been racing since the 70's, and if there was such a thing, folks would have their pockets stuffed with them, at the races. I just haven't seen it. Links to products and brand names would be helpful. What about the pre-workout muscle pump stuff, the bodybuilders use?


You're not aware then that DHEA is on wada's banned list? (In addition to being illegal in Canada)
https://www.wada-ama.org/...imes/anabolic-agents

You can buy it in various forms at GNC for like $20 a bottle. There's lots of people out there that use it (correctly or incorrectly) as a "wellness" supplement.

THC is also a banned substance, but lots of people enjoy smoking a bleezy or popping a gummy bear/macaroon. It's easy to get in your local corner store or dispensary in Canada and several states in the US, or from the usual friend of a friend method.

Ephedrine would be another banned substance that can be bought at GNC and/or many GNC-like stores.
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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Hello Herbert and All,

Is it in God we trust and all others bring data?

Or trust but try to verify?

Or just guess?

If the Triathlon Community is really concerned about the integrity of the sport .... how much more officiating and drug testing is appropriate? .... are we willing to pay? ...... and how would the increased costs affect Ironman Race sales?

Ironman Races are a business after all.

In the near term new technology is on the side of cheaper .... faster ..... less invasive drug testing ... and could mitigate the WAG suspicions of drug use.

https://www.news-medical.net/...g-test-athletes.aspx

Excerpt:

It will now be easier, faster and cheaper to catch athletes who take performance-enhancing drugs.

"A new way of testing blood and urine developed by University of Waterloo [Canada] researchers cuts down the time required to analyze samples from 30 minutes to 55 seconds. They're working to reduce it even further to 10 seconds per sample by using a fully automated workflow.

"That's fast enough to screen every Olympic athlete every day," said Dr. Germán Augusto Gómez-Ríos, a postdoctoral fellow with Waterloo's Pawliszyn Research Group.

When it comes to large-scale drug screening, the cost is also a factor. The group is working with industry to reduce the cost from an average of between $20 to $100 to just a few dollars per sample."



Drafting on the other hand is related to the number of riders on the course (also initially affected by mass swim start vs. sequenced swim start) ...... and I suspect that the number of riders is just going to keep increasing at Ironman Races if that model is profitable. I visualize a spectrum of one rider on the course and no drafting ........ to so many riders on the course that everybody is drafting ..... and an in between number of riders that allows for no drafting for each course. Courses with many loops would exacerbate the crowding since there is less overall real estate for each rider.

I suppose in a perfect world sensors on race bicycles could aggregate the cyclist time in the draft zone (minus allowed passing time) and using a clever algorithm (that also included a penalty tme for the run) ..... add an appropriate amount of time to the drafting cyclist's overall race time as a penalty .... with disqualiification for excessive drafting.

Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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Shambolic wrote:
Get out of our thread as you have no idea. Have I drafted yes. I prefer to call it flouting with the drafting zone as I don't blatantly wheel suck but know I am maybe within the zone at times. I know I am cheating but I get caught up when a pack with blatantly drafting/cheating comes passed me at the end of the Ironman and I am cooked. They and me are cheating and the very few people you see who don't get caught up in it are not cheating. If you cheat you drafting you get a short time penalty, if you cheat doping you get a long time penalty. Why are you even trawling the Slowtwitch forum if you don't even do the sport and have no idea?

I race triathlon. My last race was Cactus Man in Tempe...want my race time? Broke my collar bone in May while training for...you had it...triathlon.

I just see a massive difference between drafting than taking PEDs or course cutting.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Damn there is some serious head in the sand going on here about AG doping
USA cycling is banning 1 person per month with their anti doping program.

USAT triathlon doesn't give a rats ass about age group doping.
ITU doesn't give a rats ass about doping
WTC does some testing at Kona and 70.3 Worlds. Almost every year there is an athlete at Kona who refuses to take their drug test.

FFS people pull your head out of your ass

I think in IM though you have two very different sets of people taking part. You have those 'racing', say the top 25-50 in each age group, and in that category I can well believe the 10% figure - in fact I can imagine that it could be significantly higher.

However, when we're talking about all those people just trying to get round in under 17 hours - the one and done athletes - who make up the majority of the field I wouldn't have thought that the figure comes anywhere close to 10%. Am I still being naive?
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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Herbert wrote:
Based on TheStroBro's argument I guess doping is not cheating either - because there is a penalty. WTF

I think the point Strobro is trying to make, and I'm not convinced I agree though I can see his argument, is better expressed through an analogy to basketball:

If you make contact with a player whilst he is shooting, you have committed a penalty, and a penalty shot is awarded. Although that contact is not allowed it is viewed as a strategic part of the game, and certainly isn't considered to be cheating. However, grab hold of the player whilst he is shooting and push him over whilst he is shooting and you are ejected from the court (for cheating?). I think Strobro is saying that since we punish drafting with a penalty of 5 mins, not ejection/DQ/etc then drafting is analogous to making contact with a player whilst shooting. Is that cheating - I think that's a moral call that everyone is entitled to make their own decision on.
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [rmt] [ In reply to ]
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Pretty much where my line of thinking is.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [rmt] [ In reply to ]
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My problem is that triathlon isn't a sport that can "fairly" officiate itself. So if your saying that it's only a penalty if you get caught, that's part of the issue. Or to "use" the rules for your advantage- IE- take advantage of not enough officials to draft your way for to a 20 min advantage in the exchange that you may or may not even get caught....that's a fucked up process. So it's the whole "dont hate the player, hate the game".


Now of course the answer isn't to have no officials, because we know that the cat is out of the bag. So what I'm suggesting is that, triathlon is too easily gamed. And it's not getting better. So whatever that means, it is what it is.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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TheStroBro wrote:
Shambolic wrote:

Get out of our thread as you have no idea. Have I drafted yes. I prefer to call it flouting with the drafting zone as I don't blatantly wheel suck but know I am maybe within the zone at times. I know I am cheating but I get caught up when a pack with blatantly drafting/cheating comes passed me at the end of the Ironman and I am cooked. They and me are cheating and the very few people you see who don't get caught up in it are not cheating. If you cheat you drafting you get a short time penalty, if you cheat doping you get a long time penalty. Why are you even trawling the Slowtwitch forum if you don't even do the sport and have no idea?


I race triathlon. My last race was Cactus Man in Tempe...want my race time? Broke my collar bone in May while training for...you had it...triathlon.

I just see a massive difference between drafting than taking PEDs or course cutting.

Quote straight out the dictionary...

cheat
tĘiËt/
verb
gerund or present participle: cheating

  1. 1.
    act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage.


And no I don't need your times...
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think he's saying it's to do with whether you get caught that is the issue, it's that when you do get caught the punishment is only small.
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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I just see a massive difference between drafting than taking PEDs or course cutting.

----------

The actual race time benefits likely are closer than you think, but I know what your saying. One is a "calculated" premeditated event while the other is more on the fly type of event, just an "penalty", where as the other one is a measured way to "cheat".

But you take an IM, you could probaly gain as much time in drafting then if you did an "honest" race on EPO (IE- no drafting, followed race day rules). The time would probaly be pretty damn close to each other.

Which is kinda why if your applying your logic of just using the rules to your advantage, you would "draft until you get caught" every race and simply serve your penalty 10000x over taking drugs.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [rmt] [ In reply to ]
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This is probably an unpopular opinion on this forum, but i just don't care if those 14, 15+ hour finishers are taking t, etc as prescribed by their doctor. Most probably don't know the doping rules and if they're not winning awards then it just doesn't matter.
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [iron_mike] [ In reply to ]
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iron_mike wrote:
he stopped wearing eyeglasses. old scars healed. without lifting, in his late 40s, he gained 12 pounds of muscle while cutting fat. he comes alive during the second 100 of a double century, and then rolls out of bed the next morning ready to do it again. the drugs work!

Sure and i'm not saying they don't work; all i'm saying is that it would be nice to see some better quantification of the drugs' effects.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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stevej wrote:
DBF wrote:
No way 10% dope and probably "only" testosterone for the one who do. I have won a few IM events clean and I am not a genetic freak by any measure. My competitors doping is not something I worry about. Nobody is doing EPO.
Drafting is higher than 40% at most races. Kona is the worst if you count borderline legal drafting. Lange drafted the whole race AGers in Kona draft a lot like the pros in Kona.


Nobody? AG triathlete that qualified for kona 2018. Was tested the day before his qualifying race. https://www.usada.org/...ves-doping-sanction/

IIRC, he's in your AG; did you do that race??? Did you beat the dirty rotten doper???


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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There was that article a few years back where athletes were anonymously polled after an Ironman event. I know it was in Europe, Germany maybe, and the number that admitted doping was 1/6 or 1/7. Sorry I don't remember the exact details and don't feel like searching for it.

That's over in Europe where T clinics and usage are nowhere near as prevalent as in the USA.

Maybe I'm with Herbert that it's 10% across the entire AG field, maybe it's less, but it's probably higher in the M35+ AGs and the pointy end of those AGs is very suspect, IMO.

40% drafting. I don't think it's anywhere close to that. I'm talking willful and blatant drafting. Not the I was in someone's draft zone for a bit too long at some point in the race. Then it would be 100%. :-)

5% cheating otherwise. I don't think it's that close either.

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
stevej wrote:
DBF wrote:
No way 10% dope and probably "only" testosterone for the one who do. I have won a few IM events clean and I am not a genetic freak by any measure. My competitors doping is not something I worry about. Nobody is doing EPO.
Drafting is higher than 40% at most races. Kona is the worst if you count borderline legal drafting. Lange drafted the whole race AGers in Kona draft a lot like the pros in Kona.


Nobody? AG triathlete that qualified for kona 2018. Was tested the day before his qualifying race. https://www.usada.org/...ves-doping-sanction/

IIRC, he's in your AG; did you do that race??? Did you beat the dirty rotten doper???

I did do that race but he got me by 90 seconds or so. He started several minutes behind me and due to the rolling start, I never saw him or knew he was coming. He ran the fastest marathon of the day and ran me down in the last 2 miles or so.

blog
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [TriRugby] [ In reply to ]
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TriRugby wrote:
RobInOz wrote:

Ignoring offences like urinating on the bike


I thought you were supposed to pee on the bike? Pink (or is it?)

yellow with a pinkish tint

USAT Level II- Ironman U Certified Coach
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]
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It is really meant as a discussion point as I often hear this question. And I have no data to back this up but this seems fairly reasonable

With social media there seems to be even more need to impress
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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TheStroBro wrote:
We just have different viewpoints. There is a dramatic difference between doping and drafting.

I had a long post just written, but it probably won't explain how the vast majority of people look at what is a penalty vs what is cheating.

There is a difference between drafting and doping, but they're both breaking the rules.

The main difference is the LENGTH of the time penalty: for one it's couple minutes, for the other it's years.

In both cases, it's only if you get caught though. So they're not different in that aspect.

In both cases, it's still breaking the rules.

Breaking the rules is cheating. Simple as that.

Saying drafting is not cheating is kind of like saying a white lie is not a lie because it's about something perceived as minor. It's still a lie.

Doesn't matter if you're drafting, or doped to the gills, you are breaking the rules. Both are cheating at their fundamental basis.
Quote Reply
Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [rmt] [ In reply to ]
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rmt wrote:
I don't think he's saying it's to do with whether you get caught that is the issue, it's that when you do get caught the punishment is only small.


The amount of punishment doesn't matter. It's the fact you broke the rules.

Saying that because the punishment is smaller means its not cheating is silly. And might be cheating on a small scale, but it's still cheating.

If one guy robbed a 7-Eleven and gets away with 50 bucks, and a different dude robs a Bank and gets away with 50000, they're still both thieves. The scale of the crime may be different, but it's still a crime.
Last edited by: davejustdave: Aug 27, 18 5:53
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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What is the point of this post?
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Jhanley] [ In reply to ]
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Jhanley wrote:
What is the point of this post?

I could say the same to you
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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Accolades + sustained competitiveness + increased virility meets expendable income?

Who’da thunk it?

40+, I think your first figure is low (for the top %-age of the AG. I just don’t see how some of the physiques and performances I see are natural. I think your number might be right for the overall, but low for the top 25% of some (at least male) AGs.
Last edited by: nc452010: Aug 27, 18 7:47
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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TheStroBro wrote:
Pretty much where my line of thinking is.

In basketball though the scores are pretty much, what, 75 to 85 or even 95 to 103. Factor in shooting percentages and you get into the combo of the two teams having 240 shots at 75%.

So, if both teams reach the bonus in both halves that's 40 fouls combined for teams per game. 40/240 is 16%. Looked it up, my guess was darn close, average NCAA team gets 18.x fouls per game.

Meaning with that many shots on goal, you have the chance to directly affect your competitor frequently in the game. And any unfair advantage normally assigned as cheating isn't so, as your competitor is right there.

The reason it's cheating in something like triathlon is that all the other competitors leave the water at different times. Not everyone gets to play the same drafting game. Because of that, it's a cheat instead of a strategy.

Your analogy works better with "blocking" in track cycling than it does to drafting in triathlon.
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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I wouldn't be able to guess, and your guess is as good as mine :)

With that said, I don't race against any of you, even when I race. I race against myself. I'm not looking for a podium finish or Kona slot. I'm looking forward to challenging my mind and body to do what seems impossible. I'm a mid pack racer (goals of sub 12hr), and there's no need for me to take any type of item that would risk my health to gain a few minutes on the course. This is for bragging rights 30 years from now when I'm 75, not for Thanksgiving / Christmas bragging rights with extended family / friends in 2018.

As it relates to drafting.... 40% seems high, but as a swimmer who exits mid pack, the first 20 miles is busy, and causes course congestion. Do "I" draft? No, not intentionally. Are there people within 30 feet of each other? Yes, it's impossible (I think) to string out separation of 30 feet between people during the 1st portion of the race for those exiting mid-pack swimming. I was recently in a race where somebody latched onto my rear tire for 10 miles, and that was not the norm, and after a couple of warnings for him to back off, I held out my hand to the next moped / course marshal to capture his race #. Again, not normal, and hope to think that it's far less than 40%. But, even it if is, I can only control MY race and MY actions. At the end of the day (end of the race), I don't care if they beat me by 10 minutes or more. And, unless you're at the point where you're looking for Kona slot or some podium, I'm not sure why others care when others beat them by a few minutes.

Ironman is bigger than a race against people. For me, it's a race against myself and my own demons, limitations, abilities, and skills.

(Note: I fully understand that others might have serious disagreements with my post. That's fine. We're all doing this for different reasons, and I'm willing to share my motivations for doing this as a mid-pack middle-aged guy trying to live a little longer and a little healthier than if I were to be watching football, drinking beer, and talking about my high school glory days)
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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Jhanley wrote:
What is the point of this post?
I could say the same to you


Sorry?
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Jhanley] [ In reply to ]
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It's Herbert...

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [imswimmer328] [ In reply to ]
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imswimmer328 wrote:
This is probably an unpopular opinion on this forum, but i just don't care if those 14, 15+ hour finishers are taking t, etc as prescribed by their doctor. Most probably don't know the doping rules and if they're not winning awards then it just doesn't matter.

I hold a similar opinion although I certainly don't object to the casual dopers getting suspended if for some reason they are caught. I would guess that some MOP/BOP athletes are doping inadvertently (i.e., they think a Dr's prescription makes it OK), and others might simply be trying to buy some free speed. But here's the deal: if an athlete is MOP/BOP because they are unwilling to invest as much time training as the top guys/gals in their AG, and they aren't willing to lose the extra 20-30 lbs they are carrying, then all the PEDs in the world are not going to move them up significantly.

That is why the focus needs to be on the podium, and in particular, outlier performances that are a full standard deviation above the rest of their near peers. Looking at results, I think 10% is probably as good a guess as any, but I would not be surprised in the least to learn it was higher.
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]
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The GMAN wrote:
There was that article a few years back where athletes were anonymously polled after an Ironman event. I know it was in Europe, Germany maybe, and the number that admitted doping was 1/6 or 1/7. Sorry I don't remember the exact details and don't feel like searching for it.


That's over in Europe where T clinics and usage are nowhere near as prevalent as in the USA.

Maybe I'm with Herbert that it's 10% across the entire AG field, maybe it's less, but it's probably higher in the M35+ AGs and the pointy end of those AGs is very suspect, IMO.

40% drafting. I don't think it's anywhere close to that. I'm talking willful and blatant drafting. Not the I was in someone's draft zone for a bit too long at some point in the race. Then it would be 100%. :-)

5% cheating otherwise. I don't think it's that close either.


The study had a wide definition of "doping" and distinguished between physical doping (which is pretty much what we are talking about in this thread) and mental doping (what???!!). The 13% figure is pretty close to Herbert's guess. The study was based on 2997 triathletes at IM Regensburg, IM Frankfurt, and IM70.3 Weisbaden. However, if only the IM Frankfurt European Championship results are considered, then physical doping was 20% meaning that the other 2 events were probably about 10% or less. We could also infer that a greater number of cheaters are at Kona than at non-championship venues.

13% admitted to physical doping; Steroids, EPO, Human growth hormone, etc
15% admitted to cognitive doping; antidepressants, beta-blockers, modafinil, methylphenidate, etc.
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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I would like to do an experiment, put a turnaround point on the run course of a triathlon course that says, "Legal Course-Cutting Turnaround Point" then 10 yards up put the "Legit Turnaround Point". I bet more than 50% would not take the latter, then tack on 2 minute penalty to all the cheaters.
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Terryh] [ In reply to ]
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That's actually a cool idea. But I think you've got to do 50 yards or even 100 yards to make it more interesting.
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Jhanley] [ In reply to ]
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What is the point of your post?

Jhanley wrote:
Jhanley wrote:
What is the point of this post?
I could say the same to you


Sorry?
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [TriathlonJoe] [ In reply to ]
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TriathlonJoe wrote:
That's actually a cool idea. But I think you've got to do 50 yards or even 100 yards to make it more interesting.

I think at 50-100 yards you may get closer to 60% cheaters. LOL.
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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The point of my post is that I'm curious what you are trying to get out of asking the question you did. Is there something to be gained by asking a question with no possible answer? Is it to make people feel good who didn't get there Kona slot this year but at least they didn't cheat? Or maybe you have some type of data you'll release that can give us an estimate on how many dopers there are out there and you're just getting a feel for what people think before you release the data.



Herbert wrote:
What is the point of your post?

Jhanley wrote:
Jhanley wrote:
What is the point of this post?
I could say the same to you


Sorry?
Quote Reply
Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Jhanley] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I said nothing about Kona - not did I point fingers. That question has often come to me and so I finally shared it
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [rmt] [ In reply to ]
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rmt wrote:
Herbert wrote:
Based on TheStroBro's argument I guess doping is not cheating either - because there is a penalty. WTF


I think the point Strobro is trying to make, and I'm not convinced I agree though I can see his argument, is better expressed through an analogy to basketball:

If you make contact with a player whilst he is shooting, you have committed a penalty, and a penalty shot is awarded. Although that contact is not allowed it is viewed as a strategic part of the game, and certainly isn't considered to be cheating. However, grab hold of the player whilst he is shooting and push him over whilst he is shooting and you are ejected from the court (for cheating?). I think Strobro is saying that since we punish drafting with a penalty of 5 mins, not ejection/DQ/etc then drafting is analogous to making contact with a player whilst shooting. Is that cheating - I think that's a moral call that everyone is entitled to make their own decision on.


I think the NHL and Ice Hockey break infractions down the best:

  • Minor penalties - Ironman equivalent of the yellow card, 30 seconds in the sin bin. Examples: Blocking, charging, obstruction, helmet not worn properly, and mounting the bike before the mount line.
  • Major penalties - Ironman equivalent of the blue card, 5 mins in the sin bin. Examples: The drafting violations on the bike.
  • Game misconduct penalties/ Misconduct penalties - Ironman equivalent of a red card or a minor penalty or disqualification. These are at the discretion of the officials sometimes and sometimes are a hard penalty. Examples: Course cutting, abuse of an official.
  • Match penalties/Gross misconduct penalty - Ironman equivalent of a DQ plus additional suspension. Examples: Tampering with someones bike equipment could lead to something like this as you are causing serious potential harm. Racing drunk.
  • Substance abuse violations/Suspension: Ironman equivalent is exactly reflective of what the NHL does, suspension: Examples: Doping, substance abuse.



We should look at each infraction on the level of what it is. I don't think worse of Sidney Crosby becasue he got a slashing minor or fighting major. I would think less of him if he got a game misconduct for boarding...depending on how it went down. If he received a match penalty for biting or received a gross misconduct penalty for showing up to a game drunk...I would be very disappointed in him. Substance abuse is a personal issue that I would hope he could find help for...doping, this is asterisk territory.


EDIT: USA Hockey Level 4 certified coach (Lifetime level)

Last edited by: LifeTri: Aug 27, 18 8:29
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [nc452010] [ In reply to ]
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nc452010 wrote:
Accolades + sustained competitiveness + increased virility meets expendable income?

Who’da thunk it?

40+, I think your first figure is low (for the top %-age of the AG. I just don’t see how some of the physiques and performances I see are natural. I think your number might be right for the overall, but low for the top 25% of some (at least male) AGs.

Gotta agree with your assessment. At 44, I'm shocked when I see guys in my age group somehow getting younger. I think that somewhere around my age is where a lot of dudes start taking testosterone, HGH, Etc. Not necessarily for Triathlon, just because they miss being 30.

Or maybe I'm just jealous because no matter how hard I flog myself, I don't look like that.
Quote Reply
Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Once-a-miler] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Once-a-miler wrote:
TriRugby wrote:
RobInOz wrote:

Ignoring offences like urinating on the bike


I thought you were supposed to pee on the bike? Pink (or is it?)

yellow with a pinkish tint

Beet juice'll do that
Quote Reply
Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Asker] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Asker wrote:
I wouldn't be able to guess, and your guess is as good as mine :)

With that said, I don't race against any of you, even when I race. I race against myself. I'm not looking for a podium finish or Kona slot. I'm looking forward to challenging my mind and body to do what seems impossible. I'm a mid pack racer (goals of sub 12hr), and there's no need for me to take any type of item that would risk my health to gain a few minutes on the course. This is for bragging rights 30 years from now when I'm 75, not for Thanksgiving / Christmas bragging rights with extended family / friends in 2018.

As it relates to drafting.... 40% seems high, but as a swimmer who exits mid pack, the first 20 miles is busy, and causes course congestion. Do "I" draft? No, not intentionally. Are there people within 30 feet of each other? Yes, it's impossible (I think) to string out separation of 30 feet between people during the 1st portion of the race for those exiting mid-pack swimming. I was recently in a race where somebody latched onto my rear tire for 10 miles, and that was not the norm, and after a couple of warnings for him to back off, I held out my hand to the next moped / course marshal to capture his race #. Again, not normal, and hope to think that it's far less than 40%. But, even it if is, I can only control MY race and MY actions. At the end of the day (end of the race), I don't care if they beat me by 10 minutes or more. And, unless you're at the point where you're looking for Kona slot or some podium, I'm not sure why others care when others beat them by a few minutes.

Ironman is bigger than a race against people. For me, it's a race against myself and my own demons, limitations, abilities, and skills.

(Note: I fully understand that others might have serious disagreements with my post. That's fine. We're all doing this for different reasons, and I'm willing to share my motivations for doing this as a mid-pack middle-aged guy trying to live a little longer and a little healthier than if I were to be watching football, drinking beer, and talking about my high school glory days)

That's cool you race against yourself. If I did that, I would always lose.

I'm over the hill. Old, getting older, which is better than dying I guess. However, I'm not ever going to be as fast as I was, so I have to race against others otherwise I'll always lose. Nobody likes losing all the time, right?

So I don't really feel like racing against other guys that aren't on the same clock as I am because they're doping
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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In a retail operations work environment we acknowledged* that about 10% of the workforce never stole from the stores. And a similar 10% figure of the work force always stole from the stores. The remaining 80% of the workforce stole when given an opportunity combined with a personal need. The same percentages also played out for vendor personnel and customers. In racing the opportunities would include lack of enforcement of thorough drug testing, drafting violations, inspecting race equipment (e-motors, 5+mm thick wetsuits, positive float non-wetsuit swim gear, etc.) for rule compliance, and what-not. The need could be money, prizes, self-esteem, acknowledgement from others, etc. RD's, race officials, sponsors, volunteers, and racers handle the levers of limiting opportunities of cheating by increasing enforcement at any race or increasing opportunities for cheating by ignoring with non-enforcement of rules or not doing anything. Racers control their own levels of needs. Though participants and others in the sport can greatly influence the culture of what we accept as opportunities and wants.

Racing is probably not too different in percentages than retail. Different opportunities and different need combinations will drive the 80% to race clean to the rules or cheat to their wants. The 10% of ideal of role models will not change much nor the 10% of non-role models. Probably doesn't change whether for full distance races or local sprints. The needs for the middle and how well the opportunities are managed or ignored will provide the majority 80% to choose which direction they want to go.

https://www.palmtreesahead.com/feed
https://www.palmtreesahead.com/tri-50-states

*never saw the study and its actual results. But we managed to it as urban legend...……….
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Terryh] [ In reply to ]
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Terryh wrote:
I would like to do an experiment, put a turnaround point on the run course of a triathlon course that says, "Legal Course-Cutting Turnaround Point" then 10 yards up put the "Legit Turnaround Point". I bet more than 50% would not take the latter, then tack on 2 minute penalty to all the cheaters.

If it's "Legal" it's not cheating though.


--Chris
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [davejustdave] [ In reply to ]
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davejustdave wrote:


That's cool you race against yourself. If I did that, I would always lose.

I'm over the hill. Old, getting older, which is better than dying I guess. However, I'm not ever going to be as fast as I was, so I have to race against others otherwise I'll always lose. Nobody likes losing all the time, right?

So I don't really feel like racing against other guys that aren't on the same clock as I am because they're doping

OK.... Interesting perspective. Not sure whether you podium or finish mid-pack. I understand people are driven different than I am, and I hope I never walk into the water any time in the future with a burning desire to beat X, Y, or Z. I'm surprised people care about others if you're mid-pack or finish off podium.... And I presume that many of 'us' are off podium athletes who still strive to be as fast as we can be.
Quote Reply
Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [stevej] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
stevej wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
stevej wrote:
DBF wrote:
No way 10% dope and probably "only" testosterone for the one who do. I have won a few IM events clean and I am not a genetic freak by any measure. My competitors doping is not something I worry about. Nobody is doing EPO.
Drafting is higher than 40% at most races. Kona is the worst if you count borderline legal drafting. Lange drafted the whole race AGers in Kona draft a lot like the pros in Kona.


Nobody? AG triathlete that qualified for kona 2018. Was tested the day before his qualifying race. https://www.usada.org/...ves-doping-sanction/


IIRC, he's in your AG; did you do that race??? Did you beat the dirty rotten doper???


I did do that race but he got me by 90 seconds or so. He started several minutes behind me and due to the rolling start, I never saw him or knew he was coming. He ran the fastest marathon of the day and ran me down in the last 2 miles or so.

Wow, in the last two miles...so i'll bet you were pretty happy when he got caught for the doping. How far ahead of him were you on the swim and bike??? Looking at the final results, i see that his name has disappeared but they did not elevate you from 8th to 7th OA and from 3rd to 2nd in your AG; i guess the computer programmers don't have an easy way to do this w/o having to manually update all of the roughly 3000 people below you in the results. In any case, very impressive race on your part!!!


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
Wow, in the last two miles...so i'll bet you were pretty happy when he got caught for the doping. How far ahead of him were you on the swim and bike??? Looking at the final results, i see that his name has disappeared but they did not elevate you from 8th to 7th OA and from 3rd to 2nd in your AG; i guess the computer programmers don't have an easy way to do this w/o having to manually update all of the roughly 3000 people below you in the results. In any case, very impressive race on your part!!!

I wouldn't say I was happy. More shocked, upset, angry, and confused than anything. Took me a few days to gather my thoughts on it. I do believe there is more to the story and to IMFL race specifically. I'll just leave it at that though.

He still shows up in the results on sportstats:

https://www.sportstats.ca/...s.xhtml?raceid=47309

Tri-excuse forthcoming: It didn't help that I stopped 4 times on the bike due to an issue with my FD. Cost me ~15 minutes or so on the bike.

blog
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [stevej] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
stevej wrote:
ericmulk wrote:

Wow, in the last two miles...so i'll bet you were pretty happy when he got caught for the doping. How far ahead of him were you on the swim and bike??? Looking at the final results, i see that his name has disappeared but they did not elevate you from 8th to 7th OA and from 3rd to 2nd in your AG; i guess the computer programmers don't have an easy way to do this w/o having to manually update all of the roughly 3000 people below you in the results. In any case, very impressive race on your part!!!


I wouldn't say I was happy. More shocked, upset, angry, and confused than anything. Took me a few days to gather my thoughts on it. I do believe there is more to the story and to IMFL race specifically. I'll just leave it at that though.
He still shows up in the results on sportstats:
https://www.sportstats.ca/...s.xhtml?raceid=47309
Tri-excuse forthcoming: It didn't help that I stopped 4 times on the bike due to an issue with my FD. Cost me ~15 minutes or so on the bike.

I hate mechanicals and flat tires on the bike, just hate them. You could've been 3rd OA if not for that 15 min. That's a real bummer.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Asker] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Asker wrote:
davejustdave wrote:


That's cool you race against yourself. If I did that, I would always lose.

I'm over the hill. Old, getting older, which is better than dying I guess. However, I'm not ever going to be as fast as I was, so I have to race against others otherwise I'll always lose. Nobody likes losing all the time, right?

So I don't really feel like racing against other guys that aren't on the same clock as I am because they're doping

OK.... Interesting perspective. Not sure whether you podium or finish mid-pack. I understand people are driven different than I am, and I hope I never walk into the water any time in the future with a burning desire to beat X, Y, or Z. I'm surprised people care about others if you're mid-pack or finish off podium.... And I presume that many of 'us' are off podium athletes who still strive to be as fast as we can be.

Me? Im one of those guys that can be the edge of the podium if I'm having a good day.. meaning that meaning that if my age group is small, I have a solid shot, if it's a sold out m-dot race, my chances go down. Typical race in my area is about a hundred in my AG which often lands me in 3rd-7th.

I see the same group of "fast" (for my age group) people at most every local race I go to, which is pretty cool, because it gives me a real metric of how I'm doing, and allows us to really race each other, even if we can't compete with the young studs who win the race overall.

On a level field, it's awesome to race. Guys doping ruin that. If there really are 10 plus percent of people doping, which I'm starting to believe is an underestimation for men in their 40s and up, it makes me not to want even bother to pay to race anymore. Might as well just go out with my friends on Sundays on group ride and we can flog each other up hills.
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [davejustdave] [ In reply to ]
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Might as well just go out with my friends on Sundays on group ride and we can flog each other up hills. //

I believe that at least 10% of your friends you train with are doping too, best to just ride your bike indoors on the trainer, and hope you dont get a pizza delivery guy who is into crossfit... (-;
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
Might as well just go out with my friends on Sundays on group ride and we can flog each other up hills. //

I believe that at least 10% of your friends you train with are doping too, best to just ride your bike indoors on the trainer, and hope you dont get a pizza delivery guy who is into crossfit... (-;

you joke but there's always some shady stuff at Saturday worlds

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
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“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
Might as well just go out with my friends on Sundays on group ride and we can flog each other up hills. //

I believe that at least 10% of your friends you train with are doping too, best to just ride your bike indoors on the trainer, and hope you dont get a pizza delivery guy who is into crossfit... (-;

it's even easier to 'dope' on zwift...re: training indoors.
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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I didn't read the study, because tbh I'm too lazy to look it up, but if it was just a voluntary exit poll as it's referenced as then the results aren't statistically significant and you can't draw conclusions based off it
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [imswimmer328] [ In reply to ]
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imswimmer328 wrote:
I didn't read the study, because tbh I'm too lazy to look it up, but if it was just a voluntary exit poll as it's referenced as then the results aren't statistically significant and you can't draw conclusions based off it

People tend to overstate positive things in such polls, and understate negative things about themselves. So while that poll is not great,

1. It is the best we have and,
2. Actual doping rates are likely higher.

After all, to be lower than in actual fact you would have to have more people saying they doped (who actually did not) than people who actually doped (but were not willing to admit it). That seems unlikely.
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [helo guy] [ In reply to ]
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Unless it was a proper random sample, which an exit poll isn't, you can't draw conclusions about it. The population sampled isn't representative of the population as a whole, therefore they could have had a higher percentage of people who dope. There's no way to know.
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [windschatten] [ In reply to ]
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windschatten wrote:
The mental acrobatics people on this thread go through to make up low numbers for the % of dopers (who knew there is “technical, moral, medical, inefficient etc. doping”) is silly but unfortunately just exactly a reflection of reality. Pathetic.

There is only one form of doping:
The illegal one. No IF and BUT.
.
This thread shows again that less and less Tri-sters care about a true athletic competition.

SAD.

I wish I lived in your black/white world. Possibly the rest of us understand that these issues are somewhat more complex. For instance, it's hard to justify that some random person competing in a triathlon has to meet Olympic level qualifications/testing when it comes to the medicines they take. Most athletes simply don't put that much time and studying into doing a race. They train a little and have fun. If the doctor prescribed meds that also happen to be banned it's easy for them to say that they aren't taking it for doping purposes, but just for health. Hence, in their mind, there is no issue. That isn't a totally invalid argument either. How many sports require such stringent testing to go out a do a weekend race? Triathlon and cycling is pretty much it.
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Ralph20] [ In reply to ]
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Ralph20 wrote:
windschatten wrote:
The mental acrobatics people on this thread go through to make up low numbers for the % of dopers (who knew there is “technical, moral, medical, inefficient etc. doping”) is silly but unfortunately just exactly a reflection of reality. Pathetic.

There is only one form of doping:
The illegal one. No IF and BUT.
.
This thread shows again that less and less Tri-sters care about a true athletic competition.

SAD.

I wish I lived in your black/white world. Possibly the rest of us understand that these issues are somewhat more complex. For instance, it's hard to justify that some random person competing in a triathlon has to meet Olympic level qualifications/testing when it comes to the medicines they take. Most athletes simply don't put that much time and studying into doing a race. They train a little and have fun. If the doctor prescribed meds that also happen to be banned it's easy for them to say that they aren't taking it for doping purposes, but just for health. Hence, in their mind, there is no issue. That isn't a totally invalid argument either. How many sports require such stringent testing to go out a do a weekend race? Triathlon and cycling is pretty much it.


They can train all they want. When they choose to race in a sanctioned event it does become black and white. It doesn’t matter what the intent is. If their taking a banned substance they’re cheating. If they still want to compete they can take up another sport without said rules.
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [ffmedic84] [ In reply to ]
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They can train all they want. When they choose to race in a sanctioned event it does become black and white.

-------

It actually is more basic. When you become an usat member, it's black and white. So the moment you become a santioned member, you have to follow WADA code, irregardless of you actually racing or not. Although I think they are changing some rules to relax some things, but it goes to the basic level of simply being a member requires you follow the WADA regulations.

Now of course you'll say those people won't get tested, but if your talking black/white, rules are rules, that's how basic it gets down too. And of course 99% of usat members are members to do races, likely very few are just "fans" of the sport buying the membership.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Good point and way more articulate.
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [ffmedic84] [ In reply to ]
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ffmedic84 wrote:
Ralph20 wrote:
windschatten wrote:
The mental acrobatics people on this thread go through to make up low numbers for the % of dopers (who knew there is “technical, moral, medical, inefficient etc. doping”) is silly but unfortunately just exactly a reflection of reality. Pathetic.

There is only one form of doping:
The illegal one. No IF and BUT.
.
This thread shows again that less and less Tri-sters care about a true athletic competition.

SAD.

I wish I lived in your black/white world. Possibly the rest of us understand that these issues are somewhat more complex. For instance, it's hard to justify that some random person competing in a triathlon has to meet Olympic level qualifications/testing when it comes to the medicines they take. Most athletes simply don't put that much time and studying into doing a race. They train a little and have fun. If the doctor prescribed meds that also happen to be banned it's easy for them to say that they aren't taking it for doping purposes, but just for health. Hence, in their mind, there is no issue. That isn't a totally invalid argument either. How many sports require such stringent testing to go out a do a weekend race? Triathlon and cycling is pretty much it.


They can train all they want. When they choose to race in a sanctioned event it does become black and white. It doesn’t matter what the intent is. If their taking a banned substance they’re cheating. If they still want to compete they can take up another sport without said rules.

These types aren’t going to train, pet bunnies and champion for more unicorn sanctuary on the down-low.

They’re gonna announce their results to the world via ALL of social media.
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Ralph20] [ In reply to ]
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I wish I lived in your black/white world. Possibly the rest of us understand that these issues are somewhat more complex. For instance, it's hard to justify that some random person competing in a triathlon has to meet Olympic level qualifications/testing when it comes to the medicines they take.


I agree with you that the tricky thing is, where do you draw the line? When does it go from a recreational hobby, to something more serious?

Do we care about the 16 hour IM athlete barely making the cut-off times?


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Do we care about the 16 hour IM athlete barely making the cut-off times?

--------

We have to or else the AG doping rules look stupid. Now of course we know that 16 hr person isn't going to get tested, so if they are on some drug that is illegal to WADA, they wont get caught. But that's my issue with AG doping. I think it's dumb as hell that some random mother of 4 has to check with WADA to make sure her cough medicine is WADA approved after getting a cold from her 4 year old son's best friend at school in order to race "clean" according to the rules. Because then you'll tell me that the mother of 4 just out there doing her best isn't going to get tested, that's kinda my point. Let's go beyond just AG testing. Let's create an system that narrows the scope of testing and lets the 54 year old guy who wants to take some pills so he still gets a stiffy, can and have no worry that he is technically in violation if he races. And I don't know the answer, I just know that a system where some random new comer to the sport has to worry about dealing with WADA when they visit the doc next is a very weird sport (eta: The thing about the rules, they don't even know they are suppose to look up WADA when they are new to the sport and go to the doctor, they have zero clues on the requirements...if you want to say they should, fine; but that's not the reality for overwhelming majority of newbies getting into this sport). But if your telling me they really don't need to worry cus they'll never be tested, then let's let them off the hook completely.

So let's find a way that creates an "competitive" vs "recreation" division. I'm on record as saying you want to KQ, pay for the test on the spot yourself. Or add $5 to usat fees, but I know you won't be able to add much more than that, or the natives will revolt.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Aug 28, 18 8:42
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Re: Cheating in IRONMAN estimations [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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My frame of reference: I am relatively new to the North American tri scene; have raced in Europe for the past 10+ years. Also, I am at the pointy end of the AG.

The numbers you suggest in the initial post seem high.

I have only seen one absolute blatant case of cheating - receiving assistance from a motorcycle while on the bike course.

Other than that, I have not seen obvious cheating. Potentially dipping in the 10meter draft zone (who can say for certain whether it was 9.5 or 10.5m) or going wide to avoid drafting (or blocking). I probably am guilty of such things as well. Have seen these things both in local races and international races (including Chattanooga 70.3 WC last year).

Hope this helps.
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