IDK about jackass cops in VA

I do have a "ride the lighting" story tho

We'd parachuted into Camp Blanding, Fla---literally, from Panama. And, our job was to evaluate the Fla Army National Guard on their summer Annual Training. So sort of a big commitment on our part and a annual and predictable commitment on the part of the Fla Guardsmen

Middle of this giant exercise my counterpart announces he "has to go to work this weekend." I am like "What the fuck dude---this is AT and you're here for the duration of the exercise. Buckle down and see it thru."

Guys response was classic. "you don't understand. I am the State Executioner for the State of Fla and we're electrocuting someone up in Stark tonight. It's my job and I have to do it."

well............. Ok then. GL and see you tomorrow?

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Steve

"Until people like this are immediately removed from LE, there will always be valid concerns. These mentalities should have no home in their line of employment."


Forgive me for snipping, but wanted to address this. My wife works at a VA long term care facility. She is very conscientious and hard working, so it bothers her to see other workers who don't show up on time, or sit around on their phone at times when she asks for help turning someone.

Basically it comes down to the fact that they just can't get enough good workers, so they realize that they have to settle with some who give it about 60% instead of 90-100%. I think that law enforcement is like that, and is probably getting worse as more officers decide that they don't want to work in the current LE environment.

We need to find some way to change conditions so that we have more qualified officers so that we can get rid of the dumb bubbas.

Wow, that is a shocking video.

Edit to add I’m still bothered that they started the interaction with guns pulled. I wouldn’t get out either and I’m white

What you all seek is a professional relationship between someone who has lethal authority and the citizens they come from

Samuel Huntington explored this very question years ago in "The Soldier and The State."

https://www.hup.harvard.edu/...p?isbn=9780674817364

it is the seminal work on the subject

Seek out Huntington's definition of what constitutes a "profession"

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Steve

I’d argue the continued employment of unstable and/or morally corrupt LEO’s is exactly what is causing the situation that makes the environment unappealing to the qualified. I do agree it isn’t a simple fix though.

You may want to add a direct link to the video:

https://m.youtube.com/...mp;feature=emb_title

Ah, america the beautiful ...

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Shocking?? Not at all.

I have yet to talk any african american males who don'thave MULTIPLE stories of personal experiences in police interactions that are far worse than this.

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Assume you were kept in the dark on his one? Seeing as executions are scheduled years in advance I sure would hope the superiors were aware of the leave. I’m envious of your memory btw. I wish I remembered a tenth of my past with half as much detail. When experts talk about witnesses having bad memories, they are specifically talking about me.

as we all known "executions" are often challenged, put off, delayed, and challenged

that was the point of this guy. they finally had a clear path to execute someone. that night. and it was his job to see it done

I'm not championing it. In fact, I've my reservations about 'state sanctioned execution'

I was just relating a "ride the lightening" story i thought relevant.

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Steve

Same.

What's shocking is that there are still white people shocked about this. Don't know what planet those folks are living on. Maybe one without black people?

Let me clarify the shock...well lit area (gas station) with multiple cameras (body cam and likely gas station cameras), a service member in fatigues, yet they still proceeded to act the way they did. I wouldn’t be shocked if this was some dark roadside with no cameras and witnesses. This would be documented by cameras and witnesses yet the officers still proceeded with unabashed jack assery.

I have no doubt this sort of incident happens all the time, but with so much video running it didn’t seem to alter their behavior in the least.

I don't think those people should be given guns. Let alone the ability to pull people over.

What has happened in the past that would cause them to change their behavior? State agents have perpetrated, encouraged and supported violence against black people since the inception of the country and there has been no meaningful record of them being punished in any way for it at any time.

They do it out in the open because they know they can get away with it. And they are right.

I THOUGHT cameras would help to change behavior. Maybe it does for some and not for others

I’m not defending the officers here, but black or white, if I see an officer needlessly escalating a situation, with or without another officer present, I’m doing *exactly* what he or she says, immediately, with hands up, yes sir/yes ma’am, and showing every physical and verbal sign I can muster of full compliance.

Think about this rationally. How does staying in your vehicle make you any safer? It’s as far a decision from good sense as one could muster. At best you’re getting physically dragged from the vehicle. It can only get worse from there.

Guns drawn isn’t the time to make your case about what a good upstanding citizen you are and what you do or don’t deserve. The fact that this continues to happen just baffles me.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

Bullshit. Of course you're defending them. And you, like plenty of "good, decent upstanding LR folks" are going to keep excusing this egregious police conduct by focusing on the most minor of behaviors from a law abiding citizen.

Fear and irrational decisionmaking secondary to it has been used as a justification for all manner of shootings the police have committed. But a normal, law abiding black person couldn't possibly react in an irrational way out of fear? Why is the standard different?

Cut the bullshit act and just cop to what you believe. You and anybody that agree with this devils advocate game can go fuck yourselves as your indifference to this treatment is why it will persist. But look in the mirror and tell yourself you're not part of the problem.

The blacks will suffer in this manner as long as enough of the whites think their suffering is acceptable/necessary.

You need to take a step back and get hold of yourself. You’ve been a real dick to a couple of posters recently because you can’t control your temper.

Like it or not, it’s possible for multiple people to be wrong in a single situation. It’s entirely possible for the cops to have done the wrong thing, and this officer to have also not responded in the smartest way.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

I'm thinking the guy was thinking. Execution scheduled thursday night. Nine time out of ten it is cancelled so I can double book. Not defending the situation but it is what it is.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Take a valium and read what Sphere wrote again. He said nothing whatsoever in defense of the cops. If you read his post, you will see that it was intended as advice to keep rogue cops from shooting you. It is good advice and will result in a much better outcome than what you're likely to experience if you show the same attitude to cops that you show here.

You really need to get the burr out of your ass with respect to your hatred for cops. It makes you act completely irrational towards anyone who doesn't hate cops with the same vehemence that you do.

I was actually speaking in a general sense, and not commenting specifically on the details of this case, of which I know very little. Generally, though, you’d be wise to heed slowguy’s advice and take a deep breath, and actually listen to what people are saying.

When guns are pointed in your direction, black or white, that isn’t the time to not do what’s being asked of you, no matter how you feel about it. Period. In fact, it’s the worst imaginable time to push back, ask questions, protest, or refuse to comply. I won’t apologize for acknowledging that obvious truth, or tolerate charges of bigotry because you can’t accept that as true absent an accompanying condemnation of the police officer’s behavior. At that moment, it truly doesn’t matter if the cop is dead right or dead wrong—it’s about the person on the business end of the barrel not winding up dead. And the best way to improve those odds starts with “Yes sir” and visible hands.

There’s really no argument to be had about that, unless you just want to argue, and frankly I have no interest.

For the record, I wasn’t even commenting on what this driver did directly. I was responding to another poster who said he wouldn’t get out of the vehicle if a cop had a gun pointed at him. I think most people would agree that’s all but guaranteed to raise the threat level even further.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

I don’t know man, you get pulled over for doing absolutely nothing wrong and 2 cops are agitated and screaming at you with guns drawn, I would be frozen in fear with my hands up or out the window. I would be worried opening the door would be mistaken for getting a weapon or something

I think we’ve seen this play out enough times by now to know that when things go south, it’s because the officers seem to be acting out of fear. I understand why some people, younger black men in particular, may let fear ultimately dictate their immediate response to the situation, so I get that, but from all that we know about the situations, the obvious smart move is to fully comply at every step, keep your hands visible, and de-escalate the situation in all the obvious ways. Be respectful, compliant, ask for permission before reaching for something, tell them how you’re going to do what they’ve asked you to do (roll down window, open from the outside so your hands are visible, etc.).

Very often in those cases, the person being detained has a strong motivator to avoid detention, like outstanding warrants, contraband in the vehicle constituting parole violation, etc. I’m coming at it from the perspective of someone with nothing to hide and everything to gain by minimizing the risk of escalation. Refusing to comply completely doesn’t even register as an option in my universe. All risk, no gain.

If I’m pulled over for doing nothing wrong, I’m assuming that I match the description of someone who did, and that their high alert/anxiety is directly related to that, so I’m taking the initiative to raise my chances of driving home safely after the traffic stop. Putting the officers at ease is something I can do, and in fact it’s the only thing in that immediate moment that I have some measure of control over.

From what we can see, yes, the officers could have and should have handled that differently. That also seems true of the driver. I’ll put the odds at 99.999% that had he put his hands up, complied with their direction and exited the vehicle, showed them the requisite paperwork, he’d have driven home a few minutes later with a bruised ego and maybe a legitimate complaint to the department leadership, or a strong civil suit. He didn’t do that, and to the surprise of absolutely no one, it turned into a completely avoidable physical confrontation.

I’ll never blame a pedestrian for being struck by a car running a red light, but I’ll continue to tell my kids to always look both ways before crossing the road because being right doesn’t mean you’ll live to press charges.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

I went back to the video. The cop was overly aggressive, for sure. The driver took over thirty seconds to simply put his hands outside of the window, then told the officer directly that he’s not getting out of the vehicle because he didn’t do anything wrong. Wrong answer.

The officer had a duty and opportunity to de escalate, and he didn’t. When the driver told him, calmly and with both hands visible that he was afraid, a good officer could and should have taken that opportunity to lower the volume and temperature. Shitty police work for sure, in my view. But the driver has an obligation to comply with their direction and refused, multiple times.

I’m curious to know why that was treated like a high threat level stop from the outset. I haven’t read much into the case yet.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

Did you watch the video? This driver was in a fucked situation because of horrific policing. He was simultaneously being told to keep his hands out of the window and get out of the car. You see later the doors are locked so there was no way to open it from the outside. Yes, we’ve seen this play out before. One wrong move with this type of officer and they are dead no matter what they do. Let’s not go looking for reasons to pin this on the victim.

He waited around 1 mile until he found a well lit area to pull over. I know, totally justified in approaching with guns drawn. This is unjustifiable policing and the victim shaming is completely unnecessary.

Nobody is shaming the victim.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Again, yes, bad policing.

Also:

“Officer, here are my hands, my door is locked so I can’t open it from the outside. I can reach inside to open it if you’re comfortable with that. What would you like me to do sir?”

But maybe not:

“I’m not getting out, I haven’t done anything wrong”

I’m not blaming the driver for bad policing. That’s on the police. I’m saying it’s not the right way to handle an interaction with law enforcement. I don’t believe that should be a controversial opinion.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

I tend to agree with you.
Although the victim looks calm and composed (almost passive aggressive) in that incident, others in the same situation could also be frozen in fear.

The senior cop was very obviously on a power trip to show off in front of the kid.

Not sure, but given the locale and situation I would likely have been the adult, complied and exited the vehicle.

There are no winners in a situation like that when guns are drawn. The one without one ‘loses’ by default.
.

.

I may be among the minority here who believe that the collective benefit of professional policing conveys on us the obligation to work cooperatively in good faith with officers performing their duties. That duty exists regardless of how we feel about their attention being trained on us.

I appreciate that not everyone shares that perspective.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

The guy is scared shitless because of reckless behavior by the good guy holding the weapons. I’m going to refrain from blaming him for not doing something. That shouldn’t be a controversial opinion.

Ok.

Do you think it’s reasonable for even well trained officers to be fearful in situations where a nighttime driver continues for another mile after being flagged, refuses to show his hands after repeated instruction, refuses to exit the vehicle?

I’m not defending the cop or blaming the driver for anything beyond what they are immediately responsible for. If either party were a friend or family member and we had a conversation about it, my advice would be the same. You know better, do better. Everything about that interaction was wrong.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

You are correct. In my head I was thinking victim blaming.

I'm not black or any minority. But even as a white person, l've had enough bad interactions to highly doubt the good faith of most police. Interestingly, every time this has happened, l have been on foot or on a bike.

And based on the experiences that have been shared with me by law abiding African Americans, l imagine that if l was black, my doubt would easily be 100 times greater. And rightfully so.

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Assuming this view, are you better off complying or arguing with the police officer?

Whether you trust the police or not, the outcome is pretty much 100% going to be worse if you don’t comply politely and quickly.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

It is easy to answer this question in theory.

But the real answer is what one would actually do in a similar situation with a loaded gun actually pointed directly at one's head. In those situations, not everyone is 100% rational or logical.

But the guy holding the gun still should be (if he can't be, he needs to get a different job). But most often, the guys holding the guns are nowhere near professional or rational. See video.

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Agreed. And the race element of this is also being over-played. I've watched enough COPS to know that it goes south when white guys don't comply with lawful instructions.

I don’t think you ultimately disagree with me, then. It is not logical or rational to refuse to comply with police, because we know, with relative certainty, that it will only escalate tensions and the likelihood of a physical confrontation.

I think we agree on that. It’s not the best available option. But it’s what some people do nonetheless. Acknowledging this doesn’t constitute victim blaming or shaming, as though “they got what they deserved.” What they got was a reasonably predictable response: physical force.

I don’t think it’s fair to say “most often” unless you’re referring only to the egregious cases that make national news. The reality is that the majority of police officers likely would have handled this situation differently, and the fact that we don’t see dozens of videos like this emerging daily is essentially evidence of that. We only see the gross deviations (and I admit that we don’t see 100% of those deviations, either).

The officer should, and I suspect will, be disciplined for his conduct. But I don’t think it’s helpful to dismiss the driver’s behavior as benign or noncontributory or acceptable in this situation, because normalizing noncompliance with police officers making a traffic stop, which are inherently dangerous interactions for a variety of reasons, will only perpetuate this problem, and the consequences of noncompliance and resistance are easily predictable.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

Your distrust is understandable, however the point is this: refusing to comply with the LEO's instructions is certainly not a path to improving those bad interactions.

Outcomes only become worse, not better by that course of action.

Did you even read the article? The dude wanted to comply but was being given conflicting instructions so they pepper sprayed him.

There are plenty of examples of people either complying or not even given an opportunity to comply when they are assaulted by an officer. And it appears this happens more often with POCs.

I truly believe LEOs as a whole are good people but that there are WAY too many that are in the service that shouldn’t be. And THEY are the reason LEOs as an entity continue to be labeled as they are, and frankly rightly so.

Again, the problem is this:

1) complying is difficult when the civilian is being given a rapidfire stream of conflicting orders from one or more screaming and non rational cops.

2) complying becomes triply difficult when, in addition to the above, the civilian is thinking that this is very possibly going to be his last moment on planet earth because a non rational cop or cops is/are pointing loaded guns at his head. This difficulty in compliance and/or decision making is very difficult to appreciate unless you yourself have been in this exact situation. Unless it is something that you encounter frequently in one's life, the stress of imminent death tends to produce unexpected responses in otherwise quite rational civiliians. This is a known and much studied stress response. And trained cops should account for it when dealing with civilians that they are pointing guns at. But, the problem is (among many problems), cops nearly never do.

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Yes, but please see my response to sphere here:
https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=7492013#p7492013

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The driver continued to a well-lit gas station. What is it at that point that the cop has to fear? Did he think the driver wanted more light in order to shoot the cops?

Do you remember that incident in which the guy was crawling down the hallway, following the cops' orders to the best of his ability, and he was killed because he tried to pull up his pants? Do you think that this driver doesn't remember all these incidents, and maybe thinks he's in a no-win situation with a cop who is already pre-disposed to shoot? He likely thought he had just as much chance of surviving by staying in the car (or not making *any* movement that, despite being his best effort at compliance, would cause the cop to shoot).

As for the delay in putting his hands out the window: was he not getting out his phone and putting it on the dashboard?

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----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

BINGO.

I couldn't have said it any better.

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I don't think it takes a particular skin color to be completely terrified by cops aiming guns at you during a traffic stop.

However, "I'm not getting out. I haven't done anything wrong." is not a typical reaction spawned of fear. Maybe it was some form of bravery. To my reading somehow this person felt they had more important objectives to pursue than saving their own life.

Do you remember that incident in Feb in New Mexico where a cop was shot to death during a traffic stop in broad daylight next to the side of the road? I'm certainly not going to claim these cops in this incident acted correctly; they certainly seem to have acted very poorly. However, when talking about what it is that a cop has to fear, whether people want to admit it or not, these traffic stops can go fatally wrong for cops in an instant, and they have to repeatedly go out and perform them anyway.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

I watched the video. I just watched it again just now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=XbktWRjzy7Q&feature=emb_title

Between 1:45 and 3:55, the driver was instructed to get out of the car 32 times before the officer pepper sprayed him. Approximately once every 4 seconds, for two minutes.

I'm not condoning the older LEO's actions, but it takes an unfathomable amount of mental gymnastics to believe the officers' instructions were not crystal clear.

From what I heard in the video, he was given very clear instructions to show his hands, for roughly a minute or so, maybe less, before he complied. No conflict there. He was then asked to exit the car, multiple times, and he did not. At some point he said he would not exit the vehicle. I'm sure there was a point where they were ordering him to show his hands and exit the vehicle, but to paint a picture of constant chaotic orders is misleading. It just didn't happen that way, chronologically.


The reason why I routinely emphasize the point about the need to comply even when no offense has been committed, and to not reflexively overstate the danger the police pose to the average citizen, black or otherwise, is to try to mitigate and reverse the seemingly increasingly irrational fear of dealing with police officers in general, and especially when clearly complying. If this driver was in fear for his life, and I believe he was, don't think for a second that media narrative didn't play into and exacerbate his fear. I've been harping on this since forever, and this is *exactly* why. If he wasn't acting on irrational fear, he would have complied and we wouldn't have known the traffic stop ever happened.

Another poster asked the question about what the cops had to fear. The answer is, for their lives, for their families, all the same things that the driver did, I'd imagine. They're people, like you and me and the driver. I don't know if it's customary to drive a relatively long time before pulling over in a well lit place, and if police expect that. My suspicion is that it's not typical, and when I get pulled over, typically on the freeway, I head for the first exit. I never stop on the side of the highway, but I've pointed to the exit sign so they know my intention. I always, at every step, signal my intention. Then I show my hands without being told, and whatever they ask of me, I do, respectfully. And I'm certain that the difference between life and death for me in those instances has zero to do with my skin color.

Had a cop lit me up at night, and I drove a mile or so before pulling over, then took a long time to show my hands, then refused to get out of the vehicle, you can be sure I'd be prepared for pepper spray. Doesn't matter what my reasons were or what a dick the cop was; it's a reasonable expectation given the series of events.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

well reasoned response

If Joe Bob the local deputy dog pulls me over here--I'm driving to a safe spot before I pull off. I'm keeping both hands up on the steering wheel

i am certainly not fucking around with the center consol or reaching into my waist band

and I'm a white boy. I really cannot imagine how fraught with peril this is for black men?

It's not right. It's just where we're at right now--and things need to change.

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Steve

I had a weird police interaction over the winter. I was driving on a long, straight highway, and was slightly speeding. 10kph over the limit in cruise control. When I was pulled over the office talked to me with the same tone and aggression as the officer of the bodycam footage. Came up to my window barking "I caught you doing 25 over the limit, hand me your license immediately". It totally took me off guard. I paused as I just didn't know how to respond and said "I wasn't going nearly that fast but let me grab my license" and he immediately upped up the aggression. Within 15 seconds of him approaching my window we were shouting at each other. He was shouting at me for my license, I was shouting over him that I was getting my license. It was chaotic and in that stressful moment I felt like I didn't know how to react, I was giving pause which probably looked to him like hesitation or suspicion, I don't know. I finally put my hands up defensively and said "Sir, sir, I'm handing you my license now. Please just give me my ticket and I will challenge it in court, not here on the side of the road. I know I wasn't doing what you said I was doing".

Luckily that diffused the situation but the situation and how quickly it got out of hand really shocked me. At the conclusion of the stop the officer said "You know, when an officer asks you to do something, you should do it immediately and we could have avoided this situation". What he didn't realize is that, right off the bat he accused me of doing something I wasn't doing and then shouted an order at me. It caused me to question what he said, which caused him to escalate further.

He went on to say that he treated me aggressively because he didn't know if I was dangerous, if I had outstanding warrants, if I was going to run or something. I thought how is that possible. You scan my plates before approaching the car, so you know I have no warrants or criminal record or even outstanding parking tickets. You see a baby seat in the back of the car. You see I'm alone. I turned my vehicle off so I'm clearly not going to try to speed away. This guy was just looking to be a bully.

The way some of these cops behave is shameful.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

Did you challenge it in court? Do mounties have body cams?

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I miss YaHey

He was trying to pin me with "excessive speeding" which is, I think, an immediate road side suspension of your license, impounding of your car for 24 hrs and hefty fine.

He eventually came down to "just giving me a regular speeding ticket" which I accepted as, I was speeding a bit. He worded it like "I really should drop the hammer on you and give you this... But because I'm a nice guy I'll give you the lighter fine".

He claimed he had me on radar doing 25 over... But he was driving at the time. I don't know of any radar that works that way...

I don't think he was wearing a body cam. Not sure if RCMP wear them.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

Neil Peart's "Ghost Rider" starts out with a similar circumstance. He'd recently lost both his daughter; and then his wife---so he just wanted to ride. But Dudley Do Right (RCMP) was right there with his radar detector.

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Steve

I wonder if aggression is not taught to the officers. I have seen policemen if they are challenged, will get in you face over minor stuff. For instance an officer who was a parent on my daughter's soccer team, and was watching from the wrong side of the field where the rules were clearly said parents have to be on opposite of the field. The other teams coach told him he needed to be on the other side and he was in his face in an instant. I suspect aggression works for most people. They comply quicker. With all the talk about de-escalation, i googled the topic and it seams it is unclear it works. Outcomes may be worse or better, but it is not clear de-escalation is always the best choice.

I can't speak specifically to police training, but for sure, when doing training in the military for security or law enforcement type duties, the training I went through could have been viewed as focused more towards aggression than the other way. Most of my training was conducted by Coast Guard, who has a primarily law enforcement role, and we were certainly taught to speak loudly and forcefully, giving commands, demanding the focus and attention of the person we're talking to. We weren't asking you to get down on the ground, or to put your hands behind your head, we were demanding immediate compliance with our instructions. The reasons were varied, but basically, if we're in that position, it's because something bad could be happening, and quite frankly, we're ok with hurting your feelings if it either prevents you from hurting someone or yourself, or prevents us from having to hurt you. We needed to get control of the situation as quickly as possible, and soft spoken polite request for compliance just don't do the trick.

That's not to say that yelling at someone is always the right answer, or that it never goes wrong, or that a soft spoken approach is never the right answer. But to answer your question, I feel like it's very likely (if their training is anything like what I've seen) that police are trained to be aggressive in gaining control of the situation as rapidly as possible, and then allowing for deescalation once things are firmly controlled by the officers.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

It definitely wasn’t taught to me in the academy. Cadets are taught to control the situation and the best way to do that is to have command presence (professional, calm, confident, etc.).

It sounds like BC may have just encountered a dickhead having a bad day.

Wow, this is a an interesting take, but not in a good way.

Do you ever talk to black men who live or have lived in US urban areas? I haven't done a scientific study, and its not a big sample, but EVERY SINGLE law abiding black male that l have spoken to about this topic can share multiple cases of blatant harrassment and/or outright unjustified violence to them from police. You should do a poll of African Americans that you know or work with.

What I'm trying to say here, is this is not a "media narrative", it is the actual experience of many many many many black males in America.

Also, while the Army LT was perhaps acting irrationally, he WAS responding to a fully logical and very, very rational fear: being shot in the head by an out of control cop. That fear was clearly based on reality, as there were two loaded guns aimed at the LT's brain ... and unfortunately, it is just a fact of life, not every civilian will be cool as cucumber when staring down the barrel of gun held by a screaming idiot.

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Do Canadian cops apologize as they beat you?

Hahaha, “sooorry”

meanwhile, what does fixin to ride the lightning mean?

taser? or worse

Originally, it referred to the electric chair. Now, yeah, in this situation it means you’re going to get tasered.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Taser. Once the trigger is pulled, the recipient will “ride the lightning” for a full five seconds.

It’s very unpleasant.

Why would aggression by the cop improve the situation? I would think if anything it would make him more likely to get shot by someone who is on the edge. I don't get it.

I'd think the best strategy would always be to keep the situation calm.

Replying to last.

We can debate all day whether their actions were appropriate, whether he could have complied differently, his motivation to behave the way he did, and so on.

What we can't debate is the fact that the cops lied their asses off in the incident report.

My bet is that the department will be writing a check to that motorist and the cops will be disciplined.

If the driver just complied from the beginning then the cops wouldn’t have to had to lie in the police report /pink

I find it interesting that every analysis done on instances of horrible policing, even those with tragic endings, always get sidetracked into what the victim should have done differently.

I think, as has been noted before, that’s because there’s not actually any disagreement in the forum about the actions of the cops. Sure, we could all stand around nodding our heads and agreeing that the cops acted wrongly, but that makes for boring discussion.

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Something can be 100% the fault of another person, yet it would still be wise to take steps to mitigate the harm or avoid the situation in the first place. Some people get riled up whenever the latter is talked about.

Frankly, I find discussions about what LEOs can do to better the situation much more intriguing than we should do everything they tell us to do. That’s a boring discussion.

I think it is their way of getting control over the situation. They use force and aggression to dominate.

Most of the time, when a cop pulls me over for something (which has only happened 4-5 times in my 2 decades of driving), they are quite calm. License, sir. Do you know what I stopped you, sir. That sort of thing. This was the first time I've had someone come out guns blazing like that. It was really bizarre.

The problem with coming in hot like that, is it leaves you with no other option but escalation to get compliance. And because you're starting the confrontation out at a 6/10 intensity, your next step is some kind of physical response. You can't start out yelling, then back down or it gives control of the situation away from the cop. If the cop starts out calmly, they have a higher chance of cooperation, and they have more options at your disposal for dealing with the person.

---

Long Chile was a silly place.

I'd think that some form of discipline or discontinued employment will be in order for the two LEOs here.

I think the lieutenant was remarkably calm in a bad situation. Let's not forget that the young man is only 22-23 years old, so his life experiences are nowhere near what most of us on this board have. The tension is high and his adrenaline is pumping because two dudes are pointing guns at him and screaming contradictory orders. In his mind, he's thinking, "I've done nothing wrong, but I've seen this kind of stop before and it doesn't always end well". Based on what he says and does, the lieutenant believes he is not required to exit the vehicle for only a traffic stop, and that clearly contributes to how he reacts to the situation.

The fat boy cop, who obviously has a LOT more life experiences than either the lieutenant or his own partner, should have deescalated the situation the second he saw the license plate, the young man's hands out the window, or once he realized the driver was a military officer (which he did early on). While I normally give the police officers wide latitude, this situation is way out of line. That fat cop was clearly channeling some of his own personal issues on the victim, his attitude was unprofessional, and he was working hard to demean the lieutenant during the cop's little power trip. I hope the turd is shown a permanent desk job or another line of work.

x1,000

---

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But the way US police depts work, he'll likely be given a promotion.

Because we don't have a "bad apple" problem in the usa, we have a "rotten to the core" problem with the way most police departments work, which encompasses most police officers. The police departments themselves CREATE and then reward and promote the bad apples, so they make more bad apples by the thousands. And other cops just look the other way. If you don't believe this, just listen to this short episode, and you will never look at the institution of US policing through the same eyes again. And fyi, this stuff (in episode) is still going on full speed ahead today:
https://www.thisamericanlife.org/...ain-silent/act-two-0

---

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You, sir, are dreaming ...

---

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Does anyone have the vehicle camera from the start of lights on to when the rookie cop got out of his vehicle? Curious of the timeline.

I'm curious why they said it was Felony stop at about 1 min in.

I'm in the mood for calling out horseshit tonight.

Why do you post horseshit like this? It's inflammatory, it's not helpful, and you know full well it isn't true.

There's plenty of reason to pile on this asshole cop, but to claim that he'll likely get a promotion, and then to generalize to all US police departments, is horseshit, pure and simple.

See audio link in the post you replied to, it looks like you missed it.

Listen to audio piece where actual honest cops explain what really happens behind the scenes (for example, police harass, alienate, and cite 100% innocent people, wasting massive resources and our tax dollars, but these same police happily let serial rapists have a rape and crime spree -- and l am dead f*cking serious about all of this).

THEN you come back and tell me it's horsesh*it.

(Because its not, its all f*cking true.)

Knowledge is power, baby ...

---

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Court records show it’s 1:40 or so after he gets lit up before he stops at the gas station.

Cops are humans.
Sometimes they are in a bad place.
People at a bad mental place shouldn’t be allowed to make life/death decisions.

I really don’t understand there’s no continuous briefing/debriefing or psych assessment in law enforcement.
And there should be no ‘wiggle room’ on how policies and procedures (quite arbitrary as of now) have to be implemented.*

Just shows how little we as a society value social justice.
We’d rather get rid of those who keep us ‘social accountable’.
Quite ironically, isn’t it?

And:
Dark tinted front windows should be illegal, and drivers in such vehicles should always be considered high-risk stops.
They’re by definition ‘shady characters’.
.

* The arbitrary interpretation what constitutes ‘come to a full stop’ at stop sign is a prime example.

I think
I covered all my grievances of today.
.

One of them has already been fired.

This incident happened last December. Since then, disciplinary action was already taken, additional training instituted, the police department indicated that policy was not followed, and Officer Gutierrez was terminated.

If he’s dreaming, he’s dreaming about stuff that already happened. But don’t let reality get in the way of your opportunity to rant.

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

So you're sticking with your story, that he'll "likely be promoted". None of your follow-up supports your assertion.

Why do you feel the need to double down on horseshit?

It is odd how we hold random people off the street to a higher standard than the "professionals" that are supposedly trained and that we pay their salaries and also give them guns.

We don't. We hold those trained professionals to a standard commensurate with their position and expertise, and simultaneously hold random people off the street to a standard commensurate with common sense.

As difficult as it is for internet discussion board participants to grasp, everyone has responsibility for their choices and actions, not just whoever we view as the "bad guy" this week.

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Another criminal fleeing an arrest warrant is shot dead in Minneapolis.
And everybody is crying murder again.

Should we just let criminals go about their ‘business’? Or what’s the right way to hold them accountable?
Because criminals are aware of the confusion and take ample advantage of it.

I don’t see the current jurisdictional system being able to keep them from committing crimes, and don’t see Police having any choice other than rolling over or choosing deadly force to apprehend them.

We are so screwed.....

All the disciplinary action and retraining has already taken place. The only reason this is in the news now is a smart plan by his lawyer to drop the lawsuit and make a lot of public noise in the middle of the Chauvin trial. Expect a settlement soon if it hasn’t already happened.

So Officer Gutierrez was fired. The press release about his termination was yesterday.

The press release says an investigation started immediately after the 12/5 incident. My initial thoughts are that Officer Gutierrez was fired yesterday after the incident made national news. If that's the case, what took so long? Anyone know specifically when he was fired?

Press release

Don't we have the highest proportion of our population incarcerated of any country in the developed world?

They must be doing something "right".

Are you frightened of learning things (real accounts from police officers) that will upend your worldview? Most people are. But you're tougher than most people, l think you can handle learning the truth.

If this little Virginia cop story wasn't videoed and publicized, most certainly these f*ckwit cops would have been promoted. Note how "conveniently" all of the consequences to the cops came only because the story hit the press.

Because you think there would have been a Chauvin trial if it wasn't for the public posting of the video of Chauvin coldly killing George Floyd in broad daylight? If you do, well, ... then l have a bridge that l want to sell you ...

Until you listen to the audio piece, you simply have no idea how real US police departments operate.

---

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There is an easy answer:

It is a case of C.Y.A. regarding the police dept.

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Nope. We have the greatest no. incarcerated relative to our population in THE ENTIRE world.

We even beat baddies like Russia, China, and N.Korea.

We're truly, ... uh, ... no. 1 ... what an honor ...

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Yup.

This thread was started *after* the story was videoed, publicized, and hit the press. In fact if wouldn't even exist if those things hadn't already happened.

So you had all that information at your disposal at the time you issued your prediction that these officers would be promoted.

You seem to have a hard time admitting/acknowledging when you're wrong. It was a ridiculous statement when you made it, and has since been proven to be 100% opposite of reality.

Curious about this. They lied how? I haven't seen the incident report.

My suspicion is, these alleged "lies" boil down to a he said/she said situation. Obviously the officers and the driver are going to have very different accounts of what took place that night. Neither one is automatically lying if/when the stories don't sound the same.

True, but the video probably gives some indication.

Exactly. So I'm curious to know what the officers stated in their incident report that the video shows to be a lie.

Maybe they did lie, I'm not claiming it didn't happen. Just curious to hear the details.

How does the response to the video disprove Dark’s prediction about what would have happened with no video?

Being screamed at with guns drawn, when you haven't done anything wrong, leads people not to make the best decisions.

Reaching in the car to unlock the door, to you, sounds like a great idea because you don't actually think you're going to get shot for it. He did, and reasonably so.

---

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
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I have no problem admitting I am/was wrong. I didn't follow every single detail of the timeline of this story, so I have no idea what happened exactly when. I made an off the cuff prediction based on my knowledge of the f*cked up shit that happens within US police departments. Regarding my off the cuff predictions, sure, sometimes I am right, sometimes I am wrong. But life goes on. I won't cry if you won't cry.

But I DO know that police depts in the usa typically reward stupid f*ckwittery like this (i.e., shit police work, where cops treat innocent people in the community like garbage or worse, and then deliberately look the other way while actual vicious violent criminals go on unabated crime sprees). And, even better, police depts harm, retaliate against, and demote decent good honest cops, it is just part of how police depts operate. And if you don't believe a word I am saying, then at least listen to (short audio piece) WHAT ACTUAL CAREER COPS SAY

(well, if you're brave enough, because I will tell you in advance it ain't pretty).

---

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Dark didn't predict what would happen with no video.

He predicted these officers would be promoted *after he had seen the video*.

What was the arrest warrant for?

The incident report says Nazario assaulted the officer by striking him in the hand as he reached to unlock the door. Video shows that it didn't happen, per CNN reporting.

Incident report also says the officer warned Nazario repeatedly that he would be pepper sprayed. There is no warning in the video.

Thanks.

"I'm honestly afraid to get out."

"You should be."



Interesting way to get someone to comply.

---

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

“Reaching in the car to unlock the door, to you, sounds like a great idea because you don't actually think you're going to get shot for it. He did, and reasonably so.”

Generally speaking, when a police officer is pointing a gun at you and telling you to do something, the act of doing the opposite of what he tells you is what’s likely to get you hurt, not doing the thing that he’s asking you to do. Sorry, that’s not a reasonable believe on his part, or yours.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

Put yourself in that vehicle. The lights come on behind you, you’re a mile from a well lit place, they don’t know if you’re white or black or other. What do you do in that instance, anything different, or everything exactly the same?

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

Fleeing from officers last June in Minneapolis.

Perfectly reasonable reason to use lethal force

More applicable in this case, generally speaking, when a screaming police officer is pointing a gun at your head and telling you to do two different things at once that conflict with one another, most people will either freeze up, or do something completely random and unexpected.

In this case, the f*ckwit officers were telling the LT to show his two hands AND they were telling him to get out of the car. Which, due to the fact that the LT (1) had only 2 hands and that (2) he had locked car doors and that (3) he had a seat belt on, the LT simply could not do simultaneously.

But the screaming cops were so irrational and stupid, they were clueless about this.

---

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Agree. Sounds like a good use of the no trial death sentence to me.

But it will be chaos if the cops can't shoot a guy with a warrant who runs from them.

I believe you could look at the bigger picture of what the role of the officer should be vs is today. Pulled over for a tag violation is extremely minor. Why pull over in the first place? Policing for the purpose of citation issue vs policing to protect and serve. I believe you could look at the policing in the US overall and redefine what their purpose is and where their focus should be placed. Is time better spend on traffic enforcement or some other police activity that potentially provides a greater benefit to society. Is this protect and serve or something else. Not saying that the US should be like other countries but I've seen other countries police forces focus on other things besides code/traffic enforcement. Not decided if it's better or not but worth a thought.

Certainly there was no reason he was fleeing Police in the first place.
And maybe he tried to run over the officer, or brandished a gun when they tried to stop him?

I guess it’s only ok to make ass-umptions when they fit the ‘authorities are bad’, ‘freedom is good’ agenda.

As the same people have no hesitation to herald someone who kills (executes) someone who is breaking into their garage or takes their TV.
.

What were you saying about making ass-sumptions? I responded directly to the currently known charge of fleeing. You are mentally ill if you think that gives the right for LEO to shoot and kill someone. If more information comes to light, we can then re-assess.

Yeah, no thoughts again, just assing it.
Mental illness defining our collective reactions is spot on.
.

What is the context? Am I a white guy sitting in my desk chair from the comfort of my home typing what I think I should do in a situation where I don't really think a cop would actually kill me?

Or am I black guy with two cops screaming at me with guns pointed at my face, my heart racing with fear, and thinking that if I put my hand into the car where they can't see it, that they might actually shoot me? Or that if I get out of the car, the cops are going to beat me up? Especially the one who said, "You should be afraid."

Look at how irrational and pissed off those cops were. And they were the ones with the training and the guns. Why is the expectation that black citizens minding their own business and not breaking any laws are supposed to be flawless?

---

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure.
Criminals not stopped on their way to a crime results in someone innocent getting killed.
Most civilized nations heavily rely on crime prevention and immediate sanctions for smaller offenses (theft/larceny). And Citizen engagement is supported and encouraged. Non of that ‘none of your/my business’ garbage.

That’s one of the major reasons why they have less felony crime and their jails aren’t overcrowded. It’s not the guns.
.

i think there are two sets of rules: the set of rules that the cops impose on the citizenry, and the set of rules that black people have for not getting shot. when we see these videos, one after another, what sticks out to me is that you're not instantly "safe" when you simply obey the orders. perhaps the cops need one more class: how it is black people tend to act in order to not get shot. maybe cops should be trained to not automatically assume someone is fleeing justice, or has something to hide, if that person continues on for a mile (or even two) in order to get to a well lit (and perhaps more populated) area (where there may tend to be witnesses).

were it me, i'd have gotten out of the car. were it me, i'd have pulled over right away, damned the lighting. but then i'm white. twice as many whites get shot by cops as do blacks in the US, but there is 5x the number of white people in the US versus black people.

there are 4 things we know about this case:

1. there was only one calm person during this transaction;
2. that person didn't even get cited;
3. the supremely agitated cop (the one with the gun pointed at the guy who had no gun) got fired; and most importantly...
4. say what you will about what the black guy should have done, he is still alive.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Nope, not in the usa. Instead, innocent citizens are turned into enemies of the police, as cops endlessly harass citizens for non-crimes. Just so cops can reach their quotas of citations and arrests, all to, ... uh, "pay the rent". Don't believe me about this, the police themselves (the decent and honest officers) lay it out for all of us to see.

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i think the cop(s) were universally at fault here. i don't see the black lieutenant at fault one iota, even tho that guy didn't behave the way i would have. but i don't think your comments are helpful. you were just flat wrong about what would happen to this cop. i think way over half the cops in this country are good people. good at their jobs. do not intend to escalate. where i live - which is racially mixed - we have had our share of bad cops. but the vast majority are good cops, and community policing is encouraged and policies are in place to foster this. we still have a long way to go, but i don't think we'll get there by just throwing shade on cops. your words brought to mind trump's escalator speech about mexicans. "and i assume some are good people."

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Guns? Why would you bring up guns?

Other civilized nations don’t have overcrowded jails and prisons, but it has absolutely nothing to do with making more traffic stops. That’s a comical assertion. But since you are open to looking at other civilized nations for guidance, maybe we should look at how they police, how they conduct their war on drugs, and overall minimum sentencing guidelines. I mean, if you really care about felony crime and overcrowded prisons.

Do you ever find fault in anything LEO does? You are sounding like a back the blue at all costs kind of thinker.

Agreed. Police is not part of the People, it’s the enemy of the People.
Because the only interaction with the People occurs when things have gone pear-shaped and they get out of the cocoon of their cruisers in battle mode.
And then the pick-and choosing starts.
.

First, you and I both know that if this incident was not publicized, neither cop would have lost his job. I guarantee it.

Second, I throw zero shade on honest and decent cops, except on clearly incompetent ones. However, I throw MASSIVE shade on police departments and those in the system that look the other way. And unfortunately there are lots of those folks.

But, about all of my comments, if you got a couple of minutes, listen to this (it will be worth every single second):
https://www.thisamericanlife.org/...ain-silent/act-two-0

And then come back tell me how off base I am. Note that what is being described in this audio is still happening today throughout the United States. Nothing has changed.

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Can you show your work please?

Crimes like car theft, burglary, and others the US is very similar to other advanced economies. Yet, their prisons are not over crowded and their police shoot way less of their citizens than other countries.

This is not correct. Interaction with People also often starts when said 'person' has actually done NOTHING wrong. NOTHING.
See:
https://www.thisamericanlife.org/...ain-silent/act-two-0

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It’s easy to write out the perfect script from your keyboard on how to act when cops draw their guns on you for no obvious reason.

Quite a bit different in the heat of the moment. I have a hard time blaming the victim here when the cops walk up guns drawn and tell him he should be scared for his life.

How are we supposed to expect regular folks to act rational when cops pull guns on them, if the cops (who have been professionally trained) are incapable of acting rationally?

For what it's worth... my drivers ed teacher was an ex-cop... and he ingrained in us the importance of pulling over in a well lit safe place. He said he'd let many people out of speeding tickets if they had just pulled over in a reasonable place rather than the side of the road. Nobody wants to write speeding tickets when they are at risk of being rear ended at high speed. 1 mile is like 1-2 minutes. And to pull over at a well lit spot, at least to me, is what I've been told to do by trained driving instructors.

As for the hands thing. No way in hell I'm getting out of my car. The physical impossibility of getting out without reaching to unhook my seat belt means I'm keeping my hands where they can see them. No sudden movements and under no circumstances can you give a cop on a power trip any cover for the famous "he was reaching for something" defense. Hands out, calm, cool and patient. But I'm going to make them drag me out of my vehicle before I reach for the seat belt or door lock. I'll sit there all day if I have to, or at least until the situation calms down.

It may be that I'm just incredibly intelligent, composed, and insightful, but if I made the decision to not pull over for a long period of time, if that's what indeed happened, I'm assuming I'm adding another level of anxiety to the interaction because I didn't pull over immediately. I don't know how police perceive that, but I looks like it wasn't well received by the detaining officer. As I said before, the two times I can remember not pulling over immediately and making my hands immediately visible (one via sunroof, one via driver side window), I signaled to the officer that I was looking for an exit so we wouldn't be sitting a few inches from 70+ mph traffic. I have to imagine that show of concern, both with my signal and my hand visibility without being directed, put them at ease.

Putting myself in the shoes of that driver, had I made the decision to continue driving after they lit me up, I'd be overcompensating with compliance because my assumption would be that they were on edge because my response to being pulled over was not, from my perspective, normal or viewed as compliance. Window down, both hands visible, yes sir/no sir, everything as instructed, when instructed, with an apology for not pulling over sooner, but wanting them to feel more comfortable off the road and in a well lit space. Maybe that's unnecessary, or should be unnecessary, but that's the viewpoint I see these entirely avoidable disasters from.

You'll never convince me that this approach will increase, and not decrease, my risk of harm.

That does not suggest in any form that the officer acted reasonably. He did not, in my estimation, and he was deservedly fired. He mismanaged his end from the very beginning and only made things worse from there. He should not be working in law enforcement. It is notable, though, that despite having his gun in hand, he didn't fire it. He verbally instructed the driver dozens of times and was rebuffed. He then tried to physically remove him from the vehicle, the driver did not comply. He then used pepper spray to disable him to remove him from the vehicle. Best I can tell, he followed a reasonable escalation of force required for detention: multiple voice commands, attempted physical restraint, then non-lethal adjunct to physical restraint, pepper spray. He did not strike, taser, or shoot the non-compliant driver.

But too little too late, and the driver's verbal and nonverbal cues, setting aside his noncompliance, should have helped deescalate that situation with a reasonable officer. I suspect the result was a combination of the officer's disposition, the driver's non-compliance to pull over immediately, and the non-compliance to show his hands for a full minute, that dialed up the officer's anxiety to 11, from which he (the cop) was unable to dial back.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

That's good to know. I've known many cops over my ten years in 911 EMS, and I didn't (don't) know that's the consensus with regard to delaying the stop for a safer place. Unfortunately my attempts to make their jobs safer were not met with that kind of grace, as both resulted in speeding tickets.

No, I would never reach for my seatbelt following a command to exit the vehicle, for the same reasons. But as I said previously, I understand why that's a difficult command to follow and I'd ask the officer if I can reach for my seatbelt in order to comply with the order, just so there's no confusion. Honestly, I think we've hit a level of paranoia when it comes to this stuff because of the extreme outlier occurrences when it goes bad, that we tend to adopt as the rule and not the exception.

If a cop pulled you over for doing 45 in a 35 and asked you to exit the vehicle, are you really going to refuse because your seat belt is on? You're going to make him drag you out of the car, with or without pepper spray? That's the reasonable best option in that situation? I don't think you really believe that.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

If one was doing 45 in a 35 zone, why in the world would there be 2 guns in your face when you pulled over in a well lit place?

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Doesn't matter, I was addressing another poster's point about never undoing a seatbelt for fear of being mistaken for reaching for a weapon. It is possible to do that without getting shot or making the officer think you're up to no good and making him/her drag you out through the window.

Or, maybe one's car resembles one used in commission of a crime and your speeding suggests you're trying to get the vehicle off the road ASAP. I don't know, but it is possible that people are stopped in cases of mistaken identity.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

I don't know if it's an actual consensus on exactly where the best place to pull over is- closer vs. further and safer. I do think it's good advice to slow down, signal, and try not to freak out before pulling over at as safe a place as possible. But it seems entirely reasonable for this guy to have pulled over where he did.

I have always been told to keep my hands on the wheel when the officer approaches the vehicle. And only to move them if they say so.... but I really have no idea what I would do if being held at gunpoint. I am likely to announce every movement, and reach for the seatbelt after announcing that's what I'm going to do. But given how absolutely jacked up this particular officer was, there's a good chance I would just sit with my hands on the wheel to try to calm things down. The "he was reaching for something" is a defense we hear ALL the time from officers. In some cases, the twitch to start reaching for something is all that is needed to pour even more gas on the situation.

At 1:05 into the video post in the OP, one of the officers says into the radio “speed zero eighteen, car changing lanes”. So the driver pulls to the right lane and eases along until the gas station. I’d like some more info on this...do cops generally want us pulling over somewhere safe a minute up the road or in a dark or dangerous place right away?

.......and white and typing on a keyboard without people yelling at you with guns pointed at your face.


Lots of black people, in general, are terrified of the police, and it's not because the media are making them scared. They don't learn about police brutality through the media. That's where white people learn about it. They learn about it from personal experience, or through the stories shared by their family members.

A friend of mine several years ago yes sirred and no sirred the cops when being detained for minding his own business while being black. He got beat up, anyway. I'm guessing that everyone of his family members knows this story.

I think Trevor Noah said it once: every time an innocent black guy gets shot or beat up by the cops, "well he should have done this." Until the next incident when I guy did that. "Well he should have done something else."

I get what you are saying. I just don't think it's as simple as you want to be. As Slowman put it, this guy is still alive. Maybe if he had put his hand inside the car and unlocked his door, he wouldn't have been maced. Or maybe he would have been shot.

The sad reality is, the only way to guarantee that you won't get shot is to keep your hands out of the window.

---

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Your point is that blacks can be justifiably terrified when the statistics seem to reveal enough bias. Can cops do the same?

Whites kill 1.5 times as many cops as blacks do, but there is 5x the number of white people in the US versus black people.*
So, cops are getting killed by blacks in an even more lopsided manner than blacks are getting killed by cops.



*Source

That's not a guarantee...

To me the worst part is after the all the madness the cop says it can go one of two ways. He can pursue the issue and they will wreck his career or he can 'let it go' and nothing will happen. The cop knew he went too far and he was threatening the LT to keep quiet.

I’ve had several interactions with LEO over the years. All of them but one were overly cordial. That one got me at 4:30am on a downhill as it changed to 45 from 55. He was camped out on the other side and u-turned after I had passed by. Didn’t light me up for another half mile or so. He came up super aggressive demanding to know why I didn’t pull over as soon as he made a u-turn. It froze me. I honestly didn’t know what to say. So I did the worst thing possible and matched his aggressiveness and asked him how I was supposed to read his mind that I was getting pulled over. He didn’t like that, but I shut it down on my end. Finally I just said give me the ticket or let me go, I don’t care. I had an exercise competition to get to.

Yes, they are allowed to be terrified when they see a black guy. But they aren't allowed to scream at him with a gun pointed at his face for a routine traffic stop.



Keep in mind, you're comparing a scared black man holding his hands out of a window and not reaching in side of his car for fear of getting shot, to two allegedly trained police officers pulling guns on him, screaming at him, threatening him, and macing him because they were scared of a black man in a military uniform with his hands stuck out of a window.

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Again - it’s easy to say you’d have acted perfectly in that situation from the comfort of your keyboard.

But imagine you’re a black guy, getting pulled over, telling the cops you’re afraid for your life, the cops saying “you should be”, guns drawn over a traffic stop, scared for your life.

Until you’ve walked a mile in their shoes, it’s foolish at best to say he should have acted different. There are plenty of situations where guys escalated the situation, but this isn’t it.

This is a textbook example of why our black brothers and sisters think our society is racist and the cops crooked.

It’s scary to think this is how they behave when they know the cameras are on. It’s damn frightening to imagine how they do when they know they’re off.

I understand that acting irrationally is more likely to occur under duress. That doesn't mean we shouldn't aim for a rational response or suggest that it's the best way to handle those situations. I've never suggested he "got what he deserved" or anything of the sort.


The cop should never have said that, clearly. But remember, he didn't say that until after the driver had refused to show his hands, and then refused to exit the vehicle. It didn't come out of the clear blue sky.

Continued refusal to do what an officer directs you to do is de facto escalation, even absent hostility. That does not mean the escalation conferred escalated threat to the officer, and had he half a functional brain in that moment he'd have recognized that the driver was genuinely fearful and being as calm as he could possibly be. From the safety of my keyboard, the driver appeared to be threat level zero. Any good cop would have picked up on that and de-escalated appropriately.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

Only thing I can think of is they had indicated the driver was “eluding”, but that’s only a felony in certain circumstances.

By why did he say that. Is there something we don't know yet? I would think if it was a felony stop police might come in with guns drawn.

Criticism I've heard about the case spoke to both sides of that. Paraphrasing, one, it wasn't a felony stop, and two, if it were, they handled it like it wasn't.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

There is another video that has the start of the rookie cop getting out of his car, he hardly hits the ground and is calling it a felony stop and draws his gun. I haven't seen anything that indicates that. If the guy drove for 10 minutes, then hey have your guns drawn. If the guy drove a minute at a reasonable speed, didn't pass any other well let gas stations as this one, well come on now rookie, you really screwed this up from the get go. Then Barney Fife comes roaring in with "lightning".

If it was, a felony stop what did they say was done wrong?

Well, what did you think? Do see now that (to quote the Bard) 'something is rotten in the state of Denmark' ?

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Eh? What I see is a cop that didn't get promoted. So you were flat wrong, as multiple people have pointed out to you.

Sure, of course when things like this get public, CYA takes over and the police reactively fire the cop. But if this event never got publicized, the cops would have faced zero consequences and would likely have gotten promoted. And I say this because this is standard operating procedure, that is what my audio link so clearly showed. Because corruption and evil goes right to the very top. Again, if you actually want to hear what cops say about this, ya gotta be willing to open your mind and learn (the audio link I posted).

But most people (maybe you too?) don't wanna learn what really goes on behind the scenes in most police depts ... it is far too scary for most gentle little civilians to face reality. It is far more interesting for them to argue on the interwebs with others about who is "right" and who is "wrong" than to actually learn the truth.

Ya see, it's all about "paying the rent" ...

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It's telling that you added the bolded to modify your original claim, which was demonstrably false as so many pointed out to you.

Now you just have a hypothetical statement that you can promote infinitely, despite its obvious absurdity to any reasonable person.

Doubling down on horseshit is just ... more horseshit. But you do you, I'm out.

Correct. That kid (fresh out of academy?) is literary shaking, dear in the headlights look and behavior.
I would fear for my life too.
There are many of these Jünglings on the force that have no business policing.
Witness it around here too. They maybe smart and well adjusted, but may not be cut out for high stress, high emotional situations, even with all the best training.

And then senior shows up and without debrief shows the kid how it’s done.
Training and character testing on the job with citizens being the test subjects.

Goes ok most of the time, but now and then they make potentially grave and deadly mistakes (taser vs gun).
.

Odd that you want to reply to me (a clearly "wrong" poster on the interwebs), but you still don't want to hear what actual urban cops say about what goes on behind the scenes in their jobs ... like who gets promoted and who doesn't. But, no worries, not everyone can handle it. Because, I hear you, most everyone says "they're out" when shit gets real.

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It seems hard to believe that the guy not immediately pulling over and driving to a well lit gas station would engender that sort of fear. I would think things of that sort would be somewhat routine.

Oh, it certainly wasn’t fear alone (if, he wouldn’t have pulled him over).
But sure many other emotions caused by a high stress situation.

Not sure how it works, but from video it sure looked like his ‘supervisor/trainer‘, was keeping an eye on him (driving up in the unmarked BMW and being quickly on the scene....) .

.

No. I didn't compare anything. I just put out a statistic.

And I wouldn't use that statistic to defend these cops. I think the cops were terrible, and suggested they should be disciplined or fired in an earlier post. I would use that statistic to argue that as I judge the cops (and I'm not a cop) so will I be judging the any other citizen (regardless of color).

Slowman writes that he's white so he can't say too much about what a black man might best do with respect to the police. He wishes to express that this is a data driven opinion because of his statistic about blacks being killed by cops. I'm just pointing out that it's not a data driven opinion anymore than someone telling you that you can't judge cops reactions to black people because of a statistic about cops killed by blacks. I think that's all baloney, and thought it would be obvious when people saw it applied to the police just as much as it applied to black americans.

In the end I'll keep from hypocrisy by moving away from identity politics for everyone, not by trying to get the cops included too.

Nor I, but thought to dive in a bit given that policing in VA, and police reform nationally, is becoming more topical here in our LR.

First, having read this thread top to bottom I saw little input on context and detail. A wapo story provides

https://www.washingtonpost.com/...b14aeb9e4_story.html

Residents, of which there are 2,700 in the city of Windsor, called for a town meeting to discuss this jackass embarrassment . Dozens (or a dozen) were riled up enough to attend. The city police force (there are 7 of them) were not represented but the elected county sheriff did sit in. Media was well represented. The local (if Va Beach can be considered local) BLM rep attended (one in four residents are Black). Interviews of residents runs the gamut from shame, with comments on racism here as being mostly under the surface but now surfacing, to the view that the city police are preoccupied with enforcing the speed limit on through passers with speed trap zones on the 2 town intersecting state highways which are otherwise patrolled by county sheriffs (they number 42 patrol officers for a county of 27,000, less the populations of the independently policed towns of Windsor and Smithfield (yes, home of the Smithfield Hams) and the Va State Police. The county is rich in 1600's english settlement history.

The city of Windsor sits in the rural south of the county Isle of Wight which is mostly rural and a bedroom community for the Hampton Roads military complex and shipyards.

The rookie hometown grown cop fresh out of the army was not fired, the veteran jackass was. Basically there is little crime to speak of in this sleepy hollow. In the month of Dec 2020 the police force of Windsor made one felony arrest, 10 misdemeanor arrests and 177 traffic stops. In the year 2020 they collected $120,000 in fines, which is one sixth of the town's budget. The police force payroll is over half of the city budget.

The city has promised to improve it's police force but complained that they are limited in the quality of their recruit pool as they are in competition (offering less salary) with Norfolk city, Smithfield city, Franklin city, Hampton Roads city, Suffolk city, the local county Sheriff's force and the VA State police. So yeah, it is akin to Mayberry and the Barney Fife recruit.

My take on Police reform here? Quietly fold the city cops up into the county sheriff's team and set up speed cameras to replace the manned cruisers on the side of the road. Yes,an actual police defund effort. That young rookie probably will find a job beyond his old hometown as a building guard (I hear the U.S. Capitol Police are hiring) and that old jackass veteran would have been given a desk and phone assignment.

RICHMOND, Va. (AP) — A town in Virginia has agreed to independent reviews of misconduct allegations against its police force to settle a lawsuit filed after a Black and Latino Army lieutenant was pepper sprayed during a traffic stop.

The town of Windsor also agreed to more officer training as part of a settlement agreement signed Thursday. In exchange, the state Attorney General’s Office will drop its argument that Windsor police broke a new law by depriving Caron Nazario of his rights.

Windsor agreed to keep working toward accreditation by the Virginia Law Enforcement Professional Standards Commission. Police also will hold officer training exercises twice a year and submit to the Isle of Wight Commonwealth’s Attorney reviewing any allegations of excessive force or misconduct against its officers.

The Attorney General’s Office said its investigation found that while about 22% of Windsor’s population is Black, they accounted for about 42% of the department’s traffic stops between July 1, 2020, and Sept. 30, 2021. The department also searched more vehicles driven by Black motorists than by white drivers.

Nazario sued the two officers involved in his encounter for $1 million in damages. But in January, a jury in Richmond mostly sided with the officers and awarded the soldier a total of $3,685.

https://apnews.com/...3fe63dd665ccb1736cd4

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W