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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:

I’m curious to know why that was treated like a high threat level stop from the outset. I haven’t read much into the case yet.

He waited around 1 mile until he found a well lit area to pull over. I know, totally justified in approaching with guns drawn. This is unjustifiable policing and the victim shaming is completely unnecessary.
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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [TimeIsUp] [ In reply to ]
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TimeIsUp wrote:
sphere wrote:

I’m curious to know why that was treated like a high threat level stop from the outset. I haven’t read much into the case yet.


He waited around 1 mile until he found a well lit area to pull over. I know, totally justified in approaching with guns drawn. This is unjustifiable policing and the victim shaming is completely unnecessary.

Nobody is shaming the victim.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [TimeIsUp] [ In reply to ]
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Again, yes, bad policing.

Also:

“Officer, here are my hands, my door is locked so I can’t open it from the outside. I can reach inside to open it if you’re comfortable with that. What would you like me to do sir?”

But maybe not:

“I’m not getting out, I haven’t done anything wrong”

I’m not blaming the driver for bad policing. That’s on the police. I’m saying it’s not the right way to handle an interaction with law enforcement. I don’t believe that should be a controversial opinion.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
I went back to the video. The cop was overly aggressive, for sure. The driver took over thirty seconds to simply put his hands outside of the window, then told the officer directly that he’s not getting out of the vehicle because he didn’t do anything wrong. Wrong answer.

The officer had a duty and opportunity to de escalate, and he didn’t. When the driver told him, calmly and with both hands visible that he was afraid, a good officer could and should have taken that opportunity to lower the volume and temperature. Shitty police work for sure, in my view. But the driver has an obligation to comply with their direction and refused, multiple times.

I’m curious to know why that was treated like a high threat level stop from the outset. I haven’t read much into the case yet.

I tend to agree with you.
Although the victim looks calm and composed (almost passive aggressive) in that incident, others in the same situation could also be frozen in fear.

The senior cop was very obviously on a power trip to show off in front of the kid.

Not sure, but given the locale and situation I would likely have been the adult, complied and exited the vehicle.

There are no winners in a situation like that when guns are drawn. The one without one ‘loses’ by default.
.

.
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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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I may be among the minority here who believe that the collective benefit of professional policing conveys on us the obligation to work cooperatively in good faith with officers performing their duties. That duty exists regardless of how we feel about their attention being trained on us.

I appreciate that not everyone shares that perspective.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
Again, yes, bad policing.

Also:

“Officer, here are my hands, my door is locked so I can’t open it from the outside. I can reach inside to open it if you’re comfortable with that. What would you like me to do sir?”

But maybe not:

“I’m not getting out, I haven’t done anything wrong”

I’m not blaming the driver for bad policing. That’s on the police. I’m saying it’s not the right way to handle an interaction with law enforcement. I don’t believe that should be a controversial opinion.

The guy is scared shitless because of reckless behavior by the good guy holding the weapons. I’m going to refrain from blaming him for not doing something. That shouldn’t be a controversial opinion.
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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [TimeIsUp] [ In reply to ]
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Ok.

Do you think it’s reasonable for even well trained officers to be fearful in situations where a nighttime driver continues for another mile after being flagged, refuses to show his hands after repeated instruction, refuses to exit the vehicle?

I’m not defending the cop or blaming the driver for anything beyond what they are immediately responsible for. If either party were a friend or family member and we had a conversation about it, my advice would be the same. You know better, do better. Everything about that interaction was wrong.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
TimeIsUp wrote:
sphere wrote:

I’m curious to know why that was treated like a high threat level stop from the outset. I haven’t read much into the case yet.


He waited around 1 mile until he found a well lit area to pull over. I know, totally justified in approaching with guns drawn. This is unjustifiable policing and the victim shaming is completely unnecessary.


Nobody is shaming the victim.

You are correct. In my head I was thinking victim blaming.
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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
I may be among the minority here who believe that the collective benefit of professional policing conveys on us the obligation to work cooperatively in good faith with officers performing their duties. That duty exists regardless of how we feel about their attention being trained on us.

I appreciate that not everyone shares that perspective.


I'm not black or any minority. But even as a white person, l've had enough bad interactions to highly doubt the good faith of most police. Interestingly, every time this has happened, l have been on foot or on a bike.

And based on the experiences that have been shared with me by law abiding African Americans, l imagine that if l was black, my doubt would easily be 100 times greater. And rightfully so.

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
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Last edited by: DarkSpeedWorks: Apr 10, 21 19:43
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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
sphere wrote:
I may be among the minority here who believe that the collective benefit of professional policing conveys on us the obligation to work cooperatively in good faith with officers performing their duties. That duty exists regardless of how we feel about their attention being trained on us.

I appreciate that not everyone shares that perspective.


I'm not black or any minority. But even as a white person, l've had enough bad interactions to highly doubt the good faith of most police. Interestingly, every time this has happened, l have been on foot or on a bike.

And based on the experiences that have been shared with me by law abiding African Americans, l imagine that if l was black, my doubt would easily be 100 times greater.

Assuming this view, are you better off complying or arguing with the police officer?

Whether you trust the police or not, the outcome is pretty much 100% going to be worse if you don’t comply politely and quickly.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
sphere wrote:
I may be among the minority here who believe that the collective benefit of professional policing conveys on us the obligation to work cooperatively in good faith with officers performing their duties. That duty exists regardless of how we feel about their attention being trained on us.

I appreciate that not everyone shares that perspective.


I'm not black or any minority. But even as a white person, l've had enough bad interactions to highly doubt the good faith of most police. Interestingly, every time this has happened, l have been on foot or on a bike.

And based on the experiences that have been shared with me by law abiding African Americans, l imagine that if l was black, my doubt would easily be 100 times greater.

Assuming this view, are you better off complying or arguing with the police officer?

Whether you trust the police or not, the outcome is pretty much 100% going to be worse if you don’t comply politely and quickly.

It is easy to answer this question in theory.

But the real answer is what one would actually do in a similar situation with a loaded gun actually pointed directly at one's head. In those situations, not everyone is 100% rational or logical.

But the guy holding the gun still should be (if he can't be, he needs to get a different job). But most often, the guys holding the guns are nowhere near professional or rational. See video.

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
sphere wrote:
I may be among the minority here who believe that the collective benefit of professional policing conveys on us the obligation to work cooperatively in good faith with officers performing their duties. That duty exists regardless of how we feel about their attention being trained on us.

I appreciate that not everyone shares that perspective.


I'm not black or any minority. But even as a white person, l've had enough bad interactions to highly doubt the good faith of most police. Interestingly, every time this has happened, l have been on foot or on a bike.

And based on the experiences that have been shared with me by law abiding African Americans, l imagine that if l was black, my doubt would easily be 100 times greater.


Assuming this view, are you better off complying or arguing with the police officer?

Whether you trust the police or not, the outcome is pretty much 100% going to be worse if you don’t comply politely and quickly.

Agreed. And the race element of this is also being over-played. I've watched enough COPS to know that it goes south when white guys don't comply with lawful instructions.
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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
slowguy wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
sphere wrote:
I may be among the minority here who believe that the collective benefit of professional policing conveys on us the obligation to work cooperatively in good faith with officers performing their duties. That duty exists regardless of how we feel about their attention being trained on us.

I appreciate that not everyone shares that perspective.


I'm not black or any minority. But even as a white person, l've had enough bad interactions to highly doubt the good faith of most police. Interestingly, every time this has happened, l have been on foot or on a bike.

And based on the experiences that have been shared with me by law abiding African Americans, l imagine that if l was black, my doubt would easily be 100 times greater.

Assuming this view, are you better off complying or arguing with the police officer?

Whether you trust the police or not, the outcome is pretty much 100% going to be worse if you don’t comply politely and quickly.

It is easy to answer this question in theory.

But the real answer is what one would actually do in a similar situation with a loaded gun actually pointed directly at one's head. In those situations, not everyone is 100% rational or logical.

But the guy holding the gun still should be (if he can't be, he needs to get a different job). But most often, the guys holding the guns are nowhere near professional or rational. See video.

I don’t think you ultimately disagree with me, then. It is not logical or rational to refuse to comply with police, because we know, with relative certainty, that it will only escalate tensions and the likelihood of a physical confrontation.

I think we agree on that. It’s not the best available option. But it’s what some people do nonetheless. Acknowledging this doesn’t constitute victim blaming or shaming, as though “they got what they deserved.” What they got was a reasonably predictable response: physical force.

I don’t think it’s fair to say “most often” unless you’re referring only to the egregious cases that make national news. The reality is that the majority of police officers likely would have handled this situation differently, and the fact that we don’t see dozens of videos like this emerging daily is essentially evidence of that. We only see the gross deviations (and I admit that we don’t see 100% of those deviations, either).

The officer should, and I suspect will, be disciplined for his conduct. But I don’t think it’s helpful to dismiss the driver’s behavior as benign or noncontributory or acceptable in this situation, because normalizing noncompliance with police officers making a traffic stop, which are inherently dangerous interactions for a variety of reasons, will only perpetuate this problem, and the consequences of noncompliance and resistance are easily predictable.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
I'm not black or any minority. But even as a white person, l've had enough bad interactions to highly doubt the good faith of most police. Interestingly, every time this has happened, l have been on foot or on a bike.

And based on the experiences that have been shared with me by law abiding African Americans, l imagine that if l was black, my doubt would easily be 100 times greater. And rightfully so.

Your distrust is understandable, however the point is this: refusing to comply with the LEO's instructions is certainly not a path to improving those bad interactions.

Outcomes only become worse, not better by that course of action.
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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [davearm] [ In reply to ]
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davearm wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
I'm not black or any minority. But even as a white person, l've had enough bad interactions to highly doubt the good faith of most police. Interestingly, every time this has happened, l have been on foot or on a bike.

And based on the experiences that have been shared with me by law abiding African Americans, l imagine that if l was black, my doubt would easily be 100 times greater. And rightfully so.

Your distrust is understandable, however the point is this: refusing to comply with the LEO's instructions is certainly not a path to improving those bad interactions.

Outcomes only become worse, not better by that course of action.

Did you even read the article? The dude wanted to comply but was being given conflicting instructions so they pepper sprayed him.

There are plenty of examples of people either complying or not even given an opportunity to comply when they are assaulted by an officer. And it appears this happens more often with POCs.

I truly believe LEOs as a whole are good people but that there are WAY too many that are in the service that shouldn’t be. And THEY are the reason LEOs as an entity continue to be labeled as they are, and frankly rightly so.
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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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Again, the problem is this:

1) complying is difficult when the civilian is being given a rapidfire stream of conflicting orders from one or more screaming and non rational cops.

2) complying becomes triply difficult when, in addition to the above, the civilian is thinking that this is very possibly going to be his last moment on planet earth because a non rational cop or cops is/are pointing loaded guns at his head. This difficulty in compliance and/or decision making is very difficult to appreciate unless you yourself have been in this exact situation. Unless it is something that you encounter frequently in one's life, the stress of imminent death tends to produce unexpected responses in otherwise quite rational civiliians. This is a known and much studied stress response. And trained cops should account for it when dealing with civilians that they are pointing guns at. But, the problem is (among many problems), cops nearly never do.

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
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Last edited by: DarkSpeedWorks: Apr 11, 21 6:40
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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [davearm] [ In reply to ]
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davearm wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
I'm not black or any minority. But even as a white person, l've had enough bad interactions to highly doubt the good faith of most police. Interestingly, every time this has happened, l have been on foot or on a bike.

And based on the experiences that have been shared with me by law abiding African Americans, l imagine that if l was black, my doubt would easily be 100 times greater. And rightfully so.

Your distrust is understandable, however the point is this: refusing to comply with the LEO's instructions is certainly not a path to improving those bad interactions.

Outcomes only become worse, not better by that course of action.

Yes, but please see my response to sphere here:
https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=7492013#p7492013

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook

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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
Ok.

Do you think it’s reasonable for even well trained officers to be fearful in situations where a nighttime driver continues for another mile after being flagged, refuses to show his hands after repeated instruction, refuses to exit the vehicle?

I’m not defending the cop or blaming the driver for anything beyond what they are immediately responsible for. If either party were a friend or family member and we had a conversation about it, my advice would be the same. You know better, do better. Everything about that interaction was wrong.

The driver continued to a well-lit gas station. What is it at that point that the cop has to fear? Did he think the driver wanted more light in order to shoot the cops?

Do you remember that incident in which the guy was crawling down the hallway, following the cops' orders to the best of his ability, and he was killed because he tried to pull up his pants? Do you think that this driver doesn't remember all these incidents, and maybe thinks he's in a no-win situation with a cop who is already pre-disposed to shoot? He likely thought he had just as much chance of surviving by staying in the car (or not making *any* movement that, despite being his best effort at compliance, would cause the cop to shoot).

As for the delay in putting his hands out the window: was he not getting out his phone and putting it on the dashboard?

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
The driver continued to a well-lit gas station. What is it at that point that the cop has to fear? Did he think the driver wanted more light in order to shoot the cops?

Do you remember that incident in which the guy was crawling down the hallway, following the cops' orders to the best of his ability, and he was killed because he tried to pull up his pants? Do you think that this driver doesn't remember all these incidents, and maybe thinks he's in a no-win situation with a cop who is already pre-disposed to shoot? He likely thought he had just as much chance of surviving by staying in the car (or not making *any* movement that, despite being his best effort at compliance, would cause the cop to shoot).

BINGO.

I couldn't have said it any better.

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook

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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
I'm not black or any minority. But even as a white person, l've had enough bad interactions to highly doubt the good faith of most police. Interestingly, every time this has happened, l have been on foot or on a bike.

And based on the experiences that have been shared with me by law abiding African Americans, l imagine that if l was black, my doubt would easily be 100 times greater. And rightfully so.


I don't think it takes a particular skin color to be completely terrified by cops aiming guns at you during a traffic stop.

However, "I'm not getting out. I haven't done anything wrong." is not a typical reaction spawned of fear. Maybe it was some form of bravery. To my reading somehow this person felt they had more important objectives to pursue than saving their own life.
Last edited by: SH: Apr 11, 21 6:44
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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
sphere wrote:
Ok.

Do you think it’s reasonable for even well trained officers to be fearful in situations where a nighttime driver continues for another mile after being flagged, refuses to show his hands after repeated instruction, refuses to exit the vehicle?

I’m not defending the cop or blaming the driver for anything beyond what they are immediately responsible for. If either party were a friend or family member and we had a conversation about it, my advice would be the same. You know better, do better. Everything about that interaction was wrong.


The driver continued to a well-lit gas station. What is it at that point that the cop has to fear? Did he think the driver wanted more light in order to shoot the cops?

Do you remember that incident in which the guy was crawling down the hallway, following the cops' orders to the best of his ability, and he was killed because he tried to pull up his pants? Do you think that this driver doesn't remember all these incidents, and maybe thinks he's in a no-win situation with a cop who is already pre-disposed to shoot? He likely thought he had just as much chance of surviving by staying in the car (or not making *any* movement that, despite being his best effort at compliance, would cause the cop to shoot).

As for the delay in putting his hands out the window: was he not getting out his phone and putting it on the dashboard?

Do you remember that incident in Feb in New Mexico where a cop was shot to death during a traffic stop in broad daylight next to the side of the road? I'm certainly not going to claim these cops in this incident acted correctly; they certainly seem to have acted very poorly. However, when talking about what it is that a cop has to fear, whether people want to admit it or not, these traffic stops can go fatally wrong for cops in an instant, and they have to repeatedly go out and perform them anyway.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [crowny2] [ In reply to ]
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crowny2 wrote:
davearm wrote:

Your distrust is understandable, however the point is this: refusing to comply with the LEO's instructions is certainly not a path to improving those bad interactions.

Outcomes only become worse, not better by that course of action.


Did you even read the article? The dude wanted to comply but was being given conflicting instructions so they pepper sprayed him.

I watched the video. I just watched it again just now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=XbktWRjzy7Q&feature=emb_title

Between 1:45 and 3:55, the driver was instructed to get out of the car 32 times before the officer pepper sprayed him. Approximately once every 4 seconds, for two minutes.

I'm not condoning the older LEO's actions, but it takes an unfathomable amount of mental gymnastics to believe the officers' instructions were not crystal clear.
Last edited by: davearm: Apr 11, 21 8:19
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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
1) complying is difficult when the civilian is being given a rapidfire stream of conflicting orders from one or more screaming and non rational cops.

From what I heard in the video, he was given very clear instructions to show his hands, for roughly a minute or so, maybe less, before he complied. No conflict there. He was then asked to exit the car, multiple times, and he did not. At some point he said he would not exit the vehicle. I'm sure there was a point where they were ordering him to show his hands and exit the vehicle, but to paint a picture of constant chaotic orders is misleading. It just didn't happen that way, chronologically.

Quote:
2) complying becomes triply difficult when, in addition to the above, the civilian is thinking that this is very possibly going to be his last moment on planet earth because a non rational cop or cops is/are pointing loaded guns at his head. This difficulty in compliance and/or decision making is very difficult to appreciate unless you yourself have been in this exact situation. Unless it is something that you encounter frequently in one's life, the stress of imminent death tends to produce unexpected responses in otherwise quite rational civiliians. This is a known and much studied stress response. And trained cops should account for it when dealing with civilians that they are pointing guns at. But, the problem is (among many problems), cops nearly never do.

The reason why I routinely emphasize the point about the need to comply even when no offense has been committed, and to not reflexively overstate the danger the police pose to the average citizen, black or otherwise, is to try to mitigate and reverse the seemingly increasingly irrational fear of dealing with police officers in general, and especially when clearly complying. If this driver was in fear for his life, and I believe he was, don't think for a second that media narrative didn't play into and exacerbate his fear. I've been harping on this since forever, and this is *exactly* why. If he wasn't acting on irrational fear, he would have complied and we wouldn't have known the traffic stop ever happened.

Another poster asked the question about what the cops had to fear. The answer is, for their lives, for their families, all the same things that the driver did, I'd imagine. They're people, like you and me and the driver. I don't know if it's customary to drive a relatively long time before pulling over in a well lit place, and if police expect that. My suspicion is that it's not typical, and when I get pulled over, typically on the freeway, I head for the first exit. I never stop on the side of the highway, but I've pointed to the exit sign so they know my intention. I always, at every step, signal my intention. Then I show my hands without being told, and whatever they ask of me, I do, respectfully. And I'm certain that the difference between life and death for me in those instances has zero to do with my skin color.

Had a cop lit me up at night, and I drove a mile or so before pulling over, then took a long time to show my hands, then refused to get out of the vehicle, you can be sure I'd be prepared for pepper spray. Doesn't matter what my reasons were or what a dick the cop was; it's a reasonable expectation given the series of events.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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well reasoned response

If Joe Bob the local deputy dog pulls me over here--I'm driving to a safe spot before I pull off. I'm keeping both hands up on the steering wheel

i am certainly not fucking around with the center consol or reaching into my waist band

and I'm a white boy. I really cannot imagine how fraught with peril this is for black men?

It's not right. It's just where we're at right now--and things need to change.

Steve
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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
Triocd wrote:
Wow, that is a shocking video.

Edit to add I’m still bothered that they started the interaction with guns pulled. I wouldn’t get out either and I’m white


I’m not defending the officers here, but black or white, if I see an officer needlessly escalating a situation, with or without another officer present, I’m doing *exactly* what he or she says, immediately, with hands up, yes sir/yes ma’am, and showing every physical and verbal sign I can muster of full compliance.

Think about this rationally. How does staying in your vehicle make you any safer? It’s as far a decision from good sense as one could muster. At best you’re getting physically dragged from the vehicle. It can only get worse from there.

Guns drawn isn’t the time to make your case about what a good upstanding citizen you are and what you do or don’t deserve. The fact that this continues to happen just baffles me.

I had a weird police interaction over the winter. I was driving on a long, straight highway, and was slightly speeding. 10kph over the limit in cruise control. When I was pulled over the office talked to me with the same tone and aggression as the officer of the bodycam footage. Came up to my window barking "I caught you doing 25 over the limit, hand me your license immediately". It totally took me off guard. I paused as I just didn't know how to respond and said "I wasn't going nearly that fast but let me grab my license" and he immediately upped up the aggression. Within 15 seconds of him approaching my window we were shouting at each other. He was shouting at me for my license, I was shouting over him that I was getting my license. It was chaotic and in that stressful moment I felt like I didn't know how to react, I was giving pause which probably looked to him like hesitation or suspicion, I don't know. I finally put my hands up defensively and said "Sir, sir, I'm handing you my license now. Please just give me my ticket and I will challenge it in court, not here on the side of the road. I know I wasn't doing what you said I was doing".

Luckily that diffused the situation but the situation and how quickly it got out of hand really shocked me. At the conclusion of the stop the officer said "You know, when an officer asks you to do something, you should do it immediately and we could have avoided this situation". What he didn't realize is that, right off the bat he accused me of doing something I wasn't doing and then shouted an order at me. It caused me to question what he said, which caused him to escalate further.

He went on to say that he treated me aggressively because he didn't know if I was dangerous, if I had outstanding warrants, if I was going to run or something. I thought how is that possible. You scan my plates before approaching the car, so you know I have no warrants or criminal record or even outstanding parking tickets. You see a baby seat in the back of the car. You see I'm alone. I turned my vehicle off so I'm clearly not going to try to speed away. This guy was just looking to be a bully.

The way some of these cops behave is shameful.

Long Chile was a silly place.
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