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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
Again, yes, bad policing.

Also:

“Officer, here are my hands, my door is locked so I can’t open it from the outside. I can reach inside to open it if you’re comfortable with that. What would you like me to do sir?”

But maybe not:

“I’m not getting out, I haven’t done anything wrong”

I’m not blaming the driver for bad policing. That’s on the police. I’m saying it’s not the right way to handle an interaction with law enforcement. I don’t believe that should be a controversial opinion.

It’s easy to write out the perfect script from your keyboard on how to act when cops draw their guns on you for no obvious reason.

Quite a bit different in the heat of the moment. I have a hard time blaming the victim here when the cops walk up guns drawn and tell him he should be scared for his life.

How are we supposed to expect regular folks to act rational when cops pull guns on them, if the cops (who have been professionally trained) are incapable of acting rationally?
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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
“Reaching in the car to unlock the door, to you, sounds like a great idea because you don't actually think you're going to get shot for it. He did, and reasonably so.”

Generally speaking, when a police officer is pointing a gun at you and telling you to do something, the act of doing the opposite of what he tells you is what’s likely to get you hurt, not doing the thing that he’s asking you to do. Sorry, that’s not a reasonable believe on his part, or yours.

For what it's worth... my drivers ed teacher was an ex-cop... and he ingrained in us the importance of pulling over in a well lit safe place. He said he'd let many people out of speeding tickets if they had just pulled over in a reasonable place rather than the side of the road. Nobody wants to write speeding tickets when they are at risk of being rear ended at high speed. 1 mile is like 1-2 minutes. And to pull over at a well lit spot, at least to me, is what I've been told to do by trained driving instructors.

As for the hands thing. No way in hell I'm getting out of my car. The physical impossibility of getting out without reaching to unhook my seat belt means I'm keeping my hands where they can see them. No sudden movements and under no circumstances can you give a cop on a power trip any cover for the famous "he was reaching for something" defense. Hands out, calm, cool and patient. But I'm going to make them drag me out of my vehicle before I reach for the seat belt or door lock. I'll sit there all day if I have to, or at least until the situation calms down.
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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [blueapplepaste] [ In reply to ]
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It may be that I'm just incredibly intelligent, composed, and insightful, but if I made the decision to not pull over for a long period of time, if that's what indeed happened, I'm assuming I'm adding another level of anxiety to the interaction because I didn't pull over immediately. I don't know how police perceive that, but I looks like it wasn't well received by the detaining officer. As I said before, the two times I can remember not pulling over immediately and making my hands immediately visible (one via sunroof, one via driver side window), I signaled to the officer that I was looking for an exit so we wouldn't be sitting a few inches from 70+ mph traffic. I have to imagine that show of concern, both with my signal and my hand visibility without being directed, put them at ease.

Putting myself in the shoes of that driver, had I made the decision to continue driving after they lit me up, I'd be overcompensating with compliance because my assumption would be that they were on edge because my response to being pulled over was not, from my perspective, normal or viewed as compliance. Window down, both hands visible, yes sir/no sir, everything as instructed, when instructed, with an apology for not pulling over sooner, but wanting them to feel more comfortable off the road and in a well lit space. Maybe that's unnecessary, or should be unnecessary, but that's the viewpoint I see these entirely avoidable disasters from.

You'll never convince me that this approach will increase, and not decrease, my risk of harm.

That does not suggest in any form that the officer acted reasonably. He did not, in my estimation, and he was deservedly fired. He mismanaged his end from the very beginning and only made things worse from there. He should not be working in law enforcement. It is notable, though, that despite having his gun in hand, he didn't fire it. He verbally instructed the driver dozens of times and was rebuffed. He then tried to physically remove him from the vehicle, the driver did not comply. He then used pepper spray to disable him to remove him from the vehicle. Best I can tell, he followed a reasonable escalation of force required for detention: multiple voice commands, attempted physical restraint, then non-lethal adjunct to physical restraint, pepper spray. He did not strike, taser, or shoot the non-compliant driver.

But too little too late, and the driver's verbal and nonverbal cues, setting aside his noncompliance, should have helped deescalate that situation with a reasonable officer. I suspect the result was a combination of the officer's disposition, the driver's non-compliance to pull over immediately, and the non-compliance to show his hands for a full minute, that dialed up the officer's anxiety to 11, from which he (the cop) was unable to dial back.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [JacobB1111] [ In reply to ]
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That's good to know. I've known many cops over my ten years in 911 EMS, and I didn't (don't) know that's the consensus with regard to delaying the stop for a safer place. Unfortunately my attempts to make their jobs safer were not met with that kind of grace, as both resulted in speeding tickets.

No, I would never reach for my seatbelt following a command to exit the vehicle, for the same reasons. But as I said previously, I understand why that's a difficult command to follow and I'd ask the officer if I can reach for my seatbelt in order to comply with the order, just so there's no confusion. Honestly, I think we've hit a level of paranoia when it comes to this stuff because of the extreme outlier occurrences when it goes bad, that we tend to adopt as the rule and not the exception.

If a cop pulled you over for doing 45 in a 35 and asked you to exit the vehicle, are you really going to refuse because your seat belt is on? You're going to make him drag you out of the car, with or without pepper spray? That's the reasonable best option in that situation? I don't think you really believe that.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
Last edited by: sphere: Apr 12, 21 12:37
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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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lf a cop pulled you over for doing 45 in a 35 and asked you to exit the vehicle, are you really going to refuse because your seat belt is on? You're going to make him drag you out of the car, with or without pepper spray? That's the reasonable best option in that situation? I don't think you really believe that.

If one was doing 45 in a 35 zone, why in the world would there be 2 guns in your face when you pulled over in a well lit place?

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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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Doesn't matter, I was addressing another poster's point about never undoing a seatbelt for fear of being mistaken for reaching for a weapon. It is possible to do that without getting shot or making the officer think you're up to no good and making him/her drag you out through the window.

Or, maybe one's car resembles one used in commission of a crime and your speeding suggests you're trying to get the vehicle off the road ASAP. I don't know, but it is possible that people are stopped in cases of mistaken identity.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
Doesn't matter, I was addressing another poster's point about never undoing a seatbelt for fear of being mistaken for reaching for a weapon. It is possible to do that without getting shot or making the officer think you're up to no good and making him/her drag you out through the window.

Or, maybe one's car resembles one used in commission of a crime and your speeding suggests you're trying to get the vehicle off the road ASAP. I don't know, but it is possible that people are stopped in cases of mistaken identity.

I don't know if it's an actual consensus on exactly where the best place to pull over is- closer vs. further and safer. I do think it's good advice to slow down, signal, and try not to freak out before pulling over at as safe a place as possible. But it seems entirely reasonable for this guy to have pulled over where he did.

I have always been told to keep my hands on the wheel when the officer approaches the vehicle. And only to move them if they say so.... but I really have no idea what I would do if being held at gunpoint. I am likely to announce every movement, and reach for the seatbelt after announcing that's what I'm going to do. But given how absolutely jacked up this particular officer was, there's a good chance I would just sit with my hands on the wheel to try to calm things down. The "he was reaching for something" is a defense we hear ALL the time from officers. In some cases, the twitch to start reaching for something is all that is needed to pour even more gas on the situation.
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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [JacobB1111] [ In reply to ]
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JacobB1111 wrote:
sphere wrote:
“Reaching in the car to unlock the door, to you, sounds like a great idea because you don't actually think you're going to get shot for it. He did, and reasonably so.”

Generally speaking, when a police officer is pointing a gun at you and telling you to do something, the act of doing the opposite of what he tells you is what’s likely to get you hurt, not doing the thing that he’s asking you to do. Sorry, that’s not a reasonable believe on his part, or yours.


For what it's worth... my drivers ed teacher was an ex-cop... and he ingrained in us the importance of pulling over in a well lit safe place. He said he'd let many people out of speeding tickets if they had just pulled over in a reasonable place rather than the side of the road. Nobody wants to write speeding tickets when they are at risk of being rear ended at high speed. 1 mile is like 1-2 minutes. And to pull over at a well lit spot, at least to me, is what I've been told to do by trained driving instructors.

As for the hands thing. No way in hell I'm getting out of my car. The physical impossibility of getting out without reaching to unhook my seat belt means I'm keeping my hands where they can see them. No sudden movements and under no circumstances can you give a cop on a power trip any cover for the famous "he was reaching for something" defense. Hands out, calm, cool and patient. But I'm going to make them drag me out of my vehicle before I reach for the seat belt or door lock. I'll sit there all day if I have to, or at least until the situation calms down.

At 1:05 into the video post in the OP, one of the officers says into the radio “speed zero eighteen, car changing lanes”. So the driver pulls to the right lane and eases along until the gas station. I’d like some more info on this...do cops generally want us pulling over somewhere safe a minute up the road or in a dark or dangerous place right away?
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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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It may be that I'm just incredibly intelligent, composed, and insightful,........


.......and white and typing on a keyboard without people yelling at you with guns pointed at your face.


Lots of black people, in general, are terrified of the police, and it's not because the media are making them scared. They don't learn about police brutality through the media. That's where white people learn about it. They learn about it from personal experience, or through the stories shared by their family members.

A friend of mine several years ago yes sirred and no sirred the cops when being detained for minding his own business while being black. He got beat up, anyway. I'm guessing that everyone of his family members knows this story.

I think Trevor Noah said it once: every time an innocent black guy gets shot or beat up by the cops, "well he should have done this." Until the next incident when I guy did that. "Well he should have done something else."

I get what you are saying. I just don't think it's as simple as you want to be. As Slowman put it, this guy is still alive. Maybe if he had put his hand inside the car and unlocked his door, he wouldn't have been maced. Or maybe he would have been shot.

The sad reality is, the only way to guarantee that you won't get shot is to keep your hands out of the window.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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...but then i'm white. twice as many whites get shot by cops as do blacks in the US, but there is 5x the number of white people in the US versus black people.


Your point is that blacks can be justifiably terrified when the statistics seem to reveal enough bias. Can cops do the same?

Whites kill 1.5 times as many cops as blacks do, but there is 5x the number of white people in the US versus black people.*
So, cops are getting killed by blacks in an even more lopsided manner than blacks are getting killed by cops.



*Source
Last edited by: SH: Apr 12, 21 14:48
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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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BarryP wrote:

The sad reality is, the only way to guarantee that you won't get shot is to keep your hands out of the window.

That's not a guarantee...

To me the worst part is after the all the madness the cop says it can go one of two ways. He can pursue the issue and they will wreck his career or he can 'let it go' and nothing will happen. The cop knew he went too far and he was threatening the LT to keep quiet.
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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [Triocd] [ In reply to ]
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Triocd wrote:
At 1:05 into the video post in the OP, one of the officers says into the radio “speed zero eighteen, car changing lanes”. So the driver pulls to the right lane and eases along until the gas station. I’d like some more info on this...do cops generally want us pulling over somewhere safe a minute up the road or in a dark or dangerous place right away?


I’ve had several interactions with LEO over the years. All of them but one were overly cordial. That one got me at 4:30am on a downhill as it changed to 45 from 55. He was camped out on the other side and u-turned after I had passed by. Didn’t light me up for another half mile or so. He came up super aggressive demanding to know why I didn’t pull over as soon as he made a u-turn. It froze me. I honestly didn’t know what to say. So I did the worst thing possible and matched his aggressiveness and asked him how I was supposed to read his mind that I was getting pulled over. He didn’t like that, but I shut it down on my end. Finally I just said give me the ticket or let me go, I don’t care. I had an exercise competition to get to.
Last edited by: TimeIsUp: Apr 12, 21 14:51
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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [SH] [ In reply to ]
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Your point is that blacks can be justifiably terrified when the statistics seem to reveal enough bias. Can cops do the same?


Yes, they are allowed to be terrified when they see a black guy. But they aren't allowed to scream at him with a gun pointed at his face for a routine traffic stop.



Keep in mind, you're comparing a scared black man holding his hands out of a window and not reaching in side of his car for fear of getting shot, to two allegedly trained police officers pulling guns on him, screaming at him, threatening him, and macing him because they were scared of a black man in a military uniform with his hands stuck out of a window.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
It may be that I'm just incredibly intelligent, composed, and insightful, but if I made the decision to not pull over for a long period of time, if that's what indeed happened, I'm assuming I'm adding another level of anxiety to the interaction because I didn't pull over immediately. I don't know how police perceive that, but I looks like it wasn't well received by the detaining officer. As I said before, the two times I can remember not pulling over immediately and making my hands immediately visible (one via sunroof, one via driver side window), I signaled to the officer that I was looking for an exit so we wouldn't be sitting a few inches from 70+ mph traffic. I have to imagine that show of concern, both with my signal and my hand visibility without being directed, put them at ease.

Putting myself in the shoes of that driver, had I made the decision to continue driving after they lit me up, I'd be overcompensating with compliance because my assumption would be that they were on edge because my response to being pulled over was not, from my perspective, normal or viewed as compliance. Window down, both hands visible, yes sir/no sir, everything as instructed, when instructed, with an apology for not pulling over sooner, but wanting them to feel more comfortable off the road and in a well lit space. Maybe that's unnecessary, or should be unnecessary, but that's the viewpoint I see these entirely avoidable disasters from.

You'll never convince me that this approach will increase, and not decrease, my risk of harm.

That does not suggest in any form that the officer acted reasonably. He did not, in my estimation, and he was deservedly fired. He mismanaged his end from the very beginning and only made things worse from there. He should not be working in law enforcement. It is notable, though, that despite having his gun in hand, he didn't fire it. He verbally instructed the driver dozens of times and was rebuffed. He then tried to physically remove him from the vehicle, the driver did not comply. He then used pepper spray to disable him to remove him from the vehicle. Best I can tell, he followed a reasonable escalation of force required for detention: multiple voice commands, attempted physical restraint, then non-lethal adjunct to physical restraint, pepper spray. He did not strike, taser, or shoot the non-compliant driver.

But too little too late, and the driver's verbal and nonverbal cues, setting aside his noncompliance, should have helped deescalate that situation with a reasonable officer. I suspect the result was a combination of the officer's disposition, the driver's non-compliance to pull over immediately, and the non-compliance to show his hands for a full minute, that dialed up the officer's anxiety to 11, from which he (the cop) was unable to dial back.

Again - it’s easy to say you’d have acted perfectly in that situation from the comfort of your keyboard.

But imagine you’re a black guy, getting pulled over, telling the cops you’re afraid for your life, the cops saying “you should be”, guns drawn over a traffic stop, scared for your life.

Until you’ve walked a mile in their shoes, it’s foolish at best to say he should have acted different. There are plenty of situations where guys escalated the situation, but this isn’t it.

This is a textbook example of why our black brothers and sisters think our society is racist and the cops crooked.

It’s scary to think this is how they behave when they know the cameras are on. It’s damn frightening to imagine how they do when they know they’re off.
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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [blueapplepaste] [ In reply to ]
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Again - it’s easy to say you’d have acted perfectly in that situation from the comfort of your keyboard.

I understand that acting irrationally is more likely to occur under duress. That doesn't mean we shouldn't aim for a rational response or suggest that it's the best way to handle those situations. I've never suggested he "got what he deserved" or anything of the sort.

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But imagine you’re a black guy, getting pulled over, telling the cops you’re afraid for your life, the cops saying “you should be”, guns drawn over a traffic stop, scared for your life.

The cop should never have said that, clearly. But remember, he didn't say that until after the driver had refused to show his hands, and then refused to exit the vehicle. It didn't come out of the clear blue sky.

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Until you’ve walked a mile in their shoes, it’s foolish at best to say he should have acted different. There are plenty of situations where guys escalated the situation, but this isn’t it.
Continued refusal to do what an officer directs you to do is de facto escalation, even absent hostility. That does not mean the escalation conferred escalated threat to the officer, and had he half a functional brain in that moment he'd have recognized that the driver was genuinely fearful and being as calm as he could possibly be. From the safety of my keyboard, the driver appeared to be threat level zero. Any good cop would have picked up on that and de-escalated appropriately.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [spudone] [ In reply to ]
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spudone wrote:
patf wrote:
shoff14 wrote:
Does anyone have the vehicle camera from the start of lights on to when the rookie cop got out of his vehicle? Curious of the timeline.

I'm curious why they said it was Felony stop at about 1 min in.


This.

Only thing I can think of is they had indicated the driver was “eluding”, but that’s only a felony in certain circumstances.
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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [spudone] [ In reply to ]
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spudone wrote:
patf wrote:
shoff14 wrote:
Does anyone have the vehicle camera from the start of lights on to when the rookie cop got out of his vehicle? Curious of the timeline.

I'm curious why they said it was Felony stop at about 1 min in.


This.

By why did he say that. Is there something we don't know yet? I would think if it was a felony stop police might come in with guns drawn.
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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [patf] [ In reply to ]
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Criticism I've heard about the case spoke to both sides of that. Paraphrasing, one, it wasn't a felony stop, and two, if it were, they handled it like it wasn't.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [patf] [ In reply to ]
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patf wrote:
spudone wrote:
patf wrote:
shoff14 wrote:
Does anyone have the vehicle camera from the start of lights on to when the rookie cop got out of his vehicle? Curious of the timeline.

I'm curious why they said it was Felony stop at about 1 min in.


This.


By why did he say that. Is there something we don't know yet? I would think if it was a felony stop police might come in with guns drawn.

There is another video that has the start of the rookie cop getting out of his car, he hardly hits the ground and is calling it a felony stop and draws his gun. I haven't seen anything that indicates that. If the guy drove for 10 minutes, then hey have your guns drawn. If the guy drove a minute at a reasonable speed, didn't pass any other well let gas stations as this one, well come on now rookie, you really screwed this up from the get go. Then Barney Fife comes roaring in with "lightning".
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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
Criticism I've heard about the case spoke to both sides of that. Paraphrasing, one, it wasn't a felony stop, and two, if it were, they handled it like it wasn't.
If it was, a felony stop what did they say was done wrong?
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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [eb] [ In reply to ]
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Well, what did you think? Do see now that (to quote the Bard) 'something is rotten in the state of Denmark' ?

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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Well, what did you think? Do see now that (to quote the Bard) 'something is rotten in the state of Denmark' ?

Eh? What I see is a cop that didn't get promoted. So you were flat wrong, as multiple people have pointed out to you.
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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [eb] [ In reply to ]
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eb wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Well, what did you think? Do see now that (to quote the Bard) 'something is rotten in the state of Denmark' ?


Eh? What I see is a cop that didn't get promoted. So you were flat wrong, as multiple people have pointed out to you.

Sure, of course when things like this get public, CYA takes over and the police reactively fire the cop. But if this event never got publicized, the cops would have faced zero consequences and would likely have gotten promoted. And I say this because this is standard operating procedure, that is what my audio link so clearly showed. Because corruption and evil goes right to the very top. Again, if you actually want to hear what cops say about this, ya gotta be willing to open your mind and learn (the audio link I posted).

But most people (maybe you too?) don't wanna learn what really goes on behind the scenes in most police depts ... it is far too scary for most gentle little civilians to face reality. It is far more interesting for them to argue on the interwebs with others about who is "right" and who is "wrong" than to actually learn the truth.

Ya see, it's all about "paying the rent" ...

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
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Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
... But if this event never got publicized, the cops would have faced zero consequences and would likely have gotten promoted. ...

It's telling that you added the bolded to modify your original claim, which was demonstrably false as so many pointed out to you.

Now you just have a hypothetical statement that you can promote infinitely, despite its obvious absurdity to any reasonable person.

Doubling down on horseshit is just ... more horseshit. But you do you, I'm out.
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