Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [ike] [ In reply to ]

Apr 12, 21 8:30

Post #101 of 157 (836 views)

ike wrote:

davearm wrote:

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

If this little Virginia cop story wasn't videoed and publicized, most certainly these f*ckwit cops would have been promoted. Note how "conveniently" all of the consequences to the cops came only because the story hit the press.

This thread was started *after* the story was videoed, publicized, and hit the press. In fact if wouldn't even exist if those things hadn't already happened.

So you had all that information at your disposal at the time you issued your prediction that these officers would be promoted.

You seem to have a hard time admitting/acknowledging when you're wrong. It was a ridiculous statement when you made it, and has since been proven to be 100% opposite of reality.

How does the response to the video disprove Dark’s prediction about what would have happened with no video?

Dark didn't predict what would happen with no video.

He predicted these officers would be promoted *after he had seen the video*.

Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [windschatten] [ In reply to ]

Apr 12, 21 8:35

Post #102 of 157 (828 views)

windschatten wrote:

Another criminal fleeing an arrest warrant is shot dead in Minneapolis.
And everybody is crying murder again.

Should we just let criminals go about their ‘business’? Or what’s the right way to hold them accountable?
Because criminals are aware of the confusion and take ample advantage of it.

I don’t see the current jurisdictional system being able to keep them from committing crimes, and don’t see Police having any choice other than rolling over or choosing deadly force to apprehend them.

We are so screwed.....

What was the arrest warrant for?

Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [davearm] [ In reply to ]

Apr 12, 21 8:38

Post #103 of 157 (827 views)

davearm wrote:

Exactly. So I'm curious to know what the officers stated in their incident report that the video shows to be a lie.

Maybe they did lie, I'm not claiming it didn't happen. Just curious to hear the details.

The incident report says Nazario assaulted the officer by striking him in the hand as he reached to unlock the door. Video shows that it didn't happen, per CNN reporting.

Incident report also says the officer warned Nazario repeatedly that he would be pepper sprayed. There is no warning in the video.

Last edited by: Thom: Apr 12, 21 8:43

Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [Thom] [ In reply to ]

Apr 12, 21 8:48

Post #104 of 157 (807 views)

Thanks.

Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [TimeIsUp] [ In reply to ]

Apr 12, 21 9:21

Post #105 of 157 (782 views)

"I'm honestly afraid to get out."

"You should be."

Interesting way to get someone to comply.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [BarryP] [ In reply to ]

Apr 12, 21 10:08

Post #106 of 157 (754 views)

“Reaching in the car to unlock the door, to you, sounds like a great idea because you don't actually think you're going to get shot for it. He did, and reasonably so.”

Generally speaking, when a police officer is pointing a gun at you and telling you to do something, the act of doing the opposite of what he tells you is what’s likely to get you hurt, not doing the thing that he’s asking you to do. Sorry, that’s not a reasonable believe on his part, or yours.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [BarryP] [ In reply to ]

Apr 12, 21 10:13

Post #107 of 157 (744 views)

Put yourself in that vehicle. The lights come on behind you, you’re a mile from a well lit place, they don’t know if you’re white or black or other. What do you do in that instance, anything different, or everything exactly the same?

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [TimeIsUp] [ In reply to ]

Apr 12, 21 10:18

Post #108 of 157 (735 views)

TimeIsUp wrote:

windschatten wrote:

Another criminal fleeing an arrest warrant is shot dead in Minneapolis.
And everybody is crying murder again.

Should we just let criminals go about their ‘business’? Or what’s the right way to hold them accountable?
Because criminals are aware of the confusion and take ample advantage of it.

I don’t see the current jurisdictional system being able to keep them from committing crimes, and don’t see Police having any choice other than rolling over or choosing deadly force to apprehend them.

We are so screwed.....

What was the arrest warrant for?

Fleeing from officers last June in Minneapolis.

Perfectly reasonable reason to use lethal force

Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [sphere] [ In reply to ]

Apr 12, 21 10:18

Post #109 of 157 (732 views)

Quote:

Generally speaking, when a police officer is pointing a gun at you and telling you to do something, the act of doing the opposite of what he tells you is what’s likely to get you hurt, not doing the thing that he’s asking you to do. Sorry, that’s not a reasonable believe on his part, or yours.

More applicable in this case, generally speaking, when a screaming police officer is pointing a gun at your head and telling you to do two different things at once that conflict with one another, most people will either freeze up, or do something completely random and unexpected.

In this case, the f*ckwit officers were telling the LT to show his two hands AND they were telling him to get out of the car. Which, due to the fact that the LT (1) had only 2 hands and that (2) he had locked car doors and that (3) he had a seat belt on, the LT simply could not do simultaneously.

But the screaming cops were so irrational and stupid, they were clueless about this.

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
--

Last edited by: DarkSpeedWorks: Apr 12, 21 12:24

Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [scorpio516] [ In reply to ]

Apr 12, 21 10:20

Post #110 of 157 (728 views)

scorpio516 wrote:

TimeIsUp wrote:

windschatten wrote:

Another criminal fleeing an arrest warrant is shot dead in Minneapolis.
And everybody is crying murder again.

Should we just let criminals go about their ‘business’? Or what’s the right way to hold them accountable?
Because criminals are aware of the confusion and take ample advantage of it.

I don’t see the current jurisdictional system being able to keep them from committing crimes, and don’t see Police having any choice other than rolling over or choosing deadly force to apprehend them.

We are so screwed.....

What was the arrest warrant for?

Fleeing from officers last June in Minneapolis.

Perfectly reasonable reason to use lethal force

Agree. Sounds like a good use of the no trial death sentence to me.

Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [TimeIsUp] [ In reply to ]

Apr 12, 21 10:29

Post #111 of 157 (714 views)

TimeIsUp wrote:

scorpio516 wrote:

TimeIsUp wrote:

windschatten wrote:

Another criminal fleeing an arrest warrant is shot dead in Minneapolis.
And everybody is crying murder again.

Should we just let criminals go about their ‘business’? Or what’s the right way to hold them accountable?
Because criminals are aware of the confusion and take ample advantage of it.

I don’t see the current jurisdictional system being able to keep them from committing crimes, and don’t see Police having any choice other than rolling over or choosing deadly force to apprehend them.

We are so screwed.....

What was the arrest warrant for?

Fleeing from officers last June in Minneapolis.

Perfectly reasonable reason to use lethal force

Agree. Sounds like a good use of the no trial death sentence to me.

But it will be chaos if the cops can't shoot a guy with a warrant who runs from them.

Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [slowguy] [ In reply to ]

Apr 12, 21 10:46

Post #112 of 157 (695 views)

slowguy wrote:

klehner wrote:

sphere wrote:

Ok.

Do you think it’s reasonable for even well trained officers to be fearful in situations where a nighttime driver continues for another mile after being flagged, refuses to show his hands after repeated instruction, refuses to exit the vehicle?

I’m not defending the cop or blaming the driver for anything beyond what they are immediately responsible for. If either party were a friend or family member and we had a conversation about it, my advice would be the same. You know better, do better. Everything about that interaction was wrong.

The driver continued to a well-lit gas station. What is it at that point that the cop has to fear? Did he think the driver wanted more light in order to shoot the cops?

Do you remember that incident in which the guy was crawling down the hallway, following the cops' orders to the best of his ability, and he was killed because he tried to pull up his pants? Do you think that this driver doesn't remember all these incidents, and maybe thinks he's in a no-win situation with a cop who is already pre-disposed to shoot? He likely thought he had just as much chance of surviving by staying in the car (or not making *any* movement that, despite being his best effort at compliance, would cause the cop to shoot).

As for the delay in putting his hands out the window: was he not getting out his phone and putting it on the dashboard?

Do you remember that incident in Feb in New Mexico where a cop was shot to death during a traffic stop in broad daylight next to the side of the road? I'm certainly not going to claim these cops in this incident acted correctly; they certainly seem to have acted very poorly. However, when talking about what it is that a cop has to fear, whether people want to admit it or not, these traffic stops can go fatally wrong for cops in an instant, and they have to repeatedly go out and perform them anyway.

I believe you could look at the bigger picture of what the role of the officer should be vs is today. Pulled over for a tag violation is extremely minor. Why pull over in the first place? Policing for the purpose of citation issue vs policing to protect and serve. I believe you could look at the policing in the US overall and redefine what their purpose is and where their focus should be placed. Is time better spend on traffic enforcement or some other police activity that potentially provides a greater benefit to society. Is this protect and serve or something else. Not saying that the US should be like other countries but I've seen other countries police forces focus on other things besides code/traffic enforcement. Not decided if it's better or not but worth a thought.

Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [TimeIsUp] [ In reply to ]

Apr 12, 21 10:48

Post #113 of 157 (694 views)

TimeIsUp wrote:

scorpio516 wrote:

TimeIsUp wrote:

windschatten wrote:

Another criminal fleeing an arrest warrant is shot dead in Minneapolis.
And everybody is crying murder again.

Should we just let criminals go about their ‘business’? Or what’s the right way to hold them accountable?
Because criminals are aware of the confusion and take ample advantage of it.

I don’t see the current jurisdictional system being able to keep them from committing crimes, and don’t see Police having any choice other than rolling over or choosing deadly force to apprehend them.

We are so screwed.....

What was the arrest warrant for?

Fleeing from officers last June in Minneapolis.

Perfectly reasonable reason to use lethal force

Agree. Sounds like a good use of the no trial death sentence to me.

Certainly there was no reason he was fleeing Police in the first place.
And maybe he tried to run over the officer, or brandished a gun when they tried to stop him?

I guess it’s only ok to make ass-umptions when they fit the ‘authorities are bad’, ‘freedom is good’ agenda.

As the same people have no hesitation to herald someone who kills (executes) someone who is breaking into their garage or takes their TV.
.

Last edited by: windschatten: Apr 12, 21 10:59

Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [windschatten] [ In reply to ]

Apr 12, 21 10:58

Post #114 of 157 (687 views)

windschatten wrote:

TimeIsUp wrote:

scorpio516 wrote:

TimeIsUp wrote:

windschatten wrote:

Another criminal fleeing an arrest warrant is shot dead in Minneapolis.
And everybody is crying murder again.

Should we just let criminals go about their ‘business’? Or what’s the right way to hold them accountable?
Because criminals are aware of the confusion and take ample advantage of it.

I don’t see the current jurisdictional system being able to keep them from committing crimes, and don’t see Police having any choice other than rolling over or choosing deadly force to apprehend them.

We are so screwed.....

What was the arrest warrant for?

Fleeing from officers last June in Minneapolis.

Perfectly reasonable reason to use lethal force

Agree. Sounds like a good use of the no trial death sentence to me.

Certainly there was no reason he was fleeing Police in the first place.
And maybe he tried to run over the officer, or brandished a gun when they tried to stop him?

I guess it’s only ok to make ass-umptions when they fit the ‘authorities are bad’, ‘freedom is good’ agenda.

As the same people have no hesitation to herald someone who kills (executes) someone who is breaking into their garage.
.

What were you saying about making ass-sumptions? I responded directly to the currently known charge of fleeing. You are mentally ill if you think that gives the right for LEO to shoot and kill someone. If more information comes to light, we can then re-assess.

Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [TimeIsUp] [ In reply to ]

Apr 12, 21 11:06

Post #115 of 157 (672 views)

TimeIsUp wrote:

windschatten wrote:

TimeIsUp wrote:

scorpio516 wrote:

TimeIsUp wrote:

windschatten wrote:

Another criminal fleeing an arrest warrant is shot dead in Minneapolis.
And everybody is crying murder again.

Should we just let criminals go about their ‘business’? Or what’s the right way to hold them accountable?
Because criminals are aware of the confusion and take ample advantage of it.

I don’t see the current jurisdictional system being able to keep them from committing crimes, and don’t see Police having any choice other than rolling over or choosing deadly force to apprehend them.

We are so screwed.....

What was the arrest warrant for?

Fleeing from officers last June in Minneapolis.

Perfectly reasonable reason to use lethal force

Agree. Sounds like a good use of the no trial death sentence to me.

Certainly there was no reason he was fleeing Police in the first place.
And maybe he tried to run over the officer, or brandished a gun when they tried to stop him?

I guess it’s only ok to make ass-umptions when they fit the ‘authorities are bad’, ‘freedom is good’ agenda.

As the same people have no hesitation to herald someone who kills (executes) someone who is breaking into their garage.
.

What were you saying about making ass-sumptions? I responded directly to the currently known charge of fleeing. You are mentally ill if you think that gives the right for LEO to shoot and kill someone. If more information comes to light, we can then re-assess.

Yeah, no thoughts again, just assing it.
Mental illness defining our collective reactions is spot on.
.

Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [sphere] [ In reply to ]

Apr 12, 21 11:13

Post #116 of 157 (664 views)

sphere wrote:

Put yourself in that vehicle. The lights come on behind you, you’re a mile from a well lit place, they don’t know if you’re white or black or other. What do you do in that instance, anything different, or everything exactly the same?

What is the context? Am I a white guy sitting in my desk chair from the comfort of my home typing what I think I should do in a situation where I don't really think a cop would actually kill me?

Or am I black guy with two cops screaming at me with guns pointed at my face, my heart racing with fear, and thinking that if I put my hand into the car where they can't see it, that they might actually shoot me? Or that if I get out of the car, the cops are going to beat me up? Especially the one who said, "You should be afraid."

Look at how irrational and pissed off those cops were. And they were the ones with the training and the guns. Why is the expectation that black citizens minding their own business and not breaking any laws are supposed to be flawless?

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [Tik] [ In reply to ]

Apr 12, 21 11:16

Post #117 of 157 (657 views)

Tik wrote:

slowguy wrote:

klehner wrote:

sphere wrote:

Ok.

Do you think it’s reasonable for even well trained officers to be fearful in situations where a nighttime driver continues for another mile after being flagged, refuses to show his hands after repeated instruction, refuses to exit the vehicle?

I’m not defending the cop or blaming the driver for anything beyond what they are immediately responsible for. If either party were a friend or family member and we had a conversation about it, my advice would be the same. You know better, do better. Everything about that interaction was wrong.

The driver continued to a well-lit gas station. What is it at that point that the cop has to fear? Did he think the driver wanted more light in order to shoot the cops?

Do you remember that incident in which the guy was crawling down the hallway, following the cops' orders to the best of his ability, and he was killed because he tried to pull up his pants? Do you think that this driver doesn't remember all these incidents, and maybe thinks he's in a no-win situation with a cop who is already pre-disposed to shoot? He likely thought he had just as much chance of surviving by staying in the car (or not making *any* movement that, despite being his best effort at compliance, would cause the cop to shoot).

As for the delay in putting his hands out the window: was he not getting out his phone and putting it on the dashboard?

Do you remember that incident in Feb in New Mexico where a cop was shot to death during a traffic stop in broad daylight next to the side of the road? I'm certainly not going to claim these cops in this incident acted correctly; they certainly seem to have acted very poorly. However, when talking about what it is that a cop has to fear, whether people want to admit it or not, these traffic stops can go fatally wrong for cops in an instant, and they have to repeatedly go out and perform them anyway.

I believe you could look at the bigger picture of what the role of the officer should be vs is today. Pulled over for a tag violation is extremely minor. Why pull over in the first place? Policing for the purpose of citation issue vs policing to protect and serve. I believe you could look at the policing in the US overall and redefine what their purpose is and where their focus should be placed. Is time better spend on traffic enforcement or some other police activity that potentially provides a greater benefit to society. Is this protect and serve or something else. Not saying that the US should be like other countries but I've seen other countries police forces focus on other things besides code/traffic enforcement. Not decided if it's better or not but worth a thought.

An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure.
Criminals not stopped on their way to a crime results in someone innocent getting killed.
Most civilized nations heavily rely on crime prevention and immediate sanctions for smaller offenses (theft/larceny). And Citizen engagement is supported and encouraged. Non of that ‘none of your/my business’ garbage.

That’s one of the major reasons why they have less felony crime and their jails aren’t overcrowded. It’s not the guns.
.

Last edited by: windschatten: Apr 12, 21 11:30

Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [BarryP] [ In reply to ]

Apr 12, 21 11:27

Post #118 of 157 (644 views)

BarryP wrote:

sphere wrote:

Again, yes, bad policing.

Also:

“Officer, here are my hands, my door is locked so I can’t open it from the outside. I can reach inside to open it if you’re comfortable with that. What would you like me to do sir?”

But maybe not:

“I’m not getting out, I haven’t done anything wrong”

I’m not blaming the driver for bad policing. That’s on the police. I’m saying it’s not the right way to handle an interaction with law enforcement. I don’t believe that should be a controversial opinion.

Being screamed at with guns drawn, when you haven't done anything wrong, leads people not to make the best decisions.

Reaching in the car to unlock the door, to you, sounds like a great idea because you don't actually think you're going to get shot for it. He did, and reasonably so.

i think there are two sets of rules: the set of rules that the cops impose on the citizenry, and the set of rules that black people have for not getting shot. when we see these videos, one after another, what sticks out to me is that you're not instantly "safe" when you simply obey the orders. perhaps the cops need one more class: how it is black people tend to act in order to not get shot. maybe cops should be trained to not automatically assume someone is fleeing justice, or has something to hide, if that person continues on for a mile (or even two) in order to get to a well lit (and perhaps more populated) area (where there may tend to be witnesses).

were it me, i'd have gotten out of the car. were it me, i'd have pulled over right away, damned the lighting. but then i'm white. twice as many whites get shot by cops as do blacks in the US, but there is 5x the number of white people in the US versus black people.

there are 4 things we know about this case:

1. there was only one calm person during this transaction;
2. that person didn't even get cited;
3. the supremely agitated cop (the one with the gun pointed at the guy who had no gun) got fired; and most importantly...
4. say what you will about what the black guy should have done, he is still alive.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Last edited by: Slowman: Apr 12, 21 11:29

Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [windschatten] [ In reply to ]

Apr 12, 21 11:28

Post #119 of 157 (641 views)

windschatten wrote:

Tik wrote:

slowguy wrote:

klehner wrote:

sphere wrote:

Ok.

Do you think it’s reasonable for even well trained officers to be fearful in situations where a nighttime driver continues for another mile after being flagged, refuses to show his hands after repeated instruction, refuses to exit the vehicle?

I’m not defending the cop or blaming the driver for anything beyond what they are immediately responsible for. If either party were a friend or family member and we had a conversation about it, my advice would be the same. You know better, do better. Everything about that interaction was wrong.

The driver continued to a well-lit gas station. What is it at that point that the cop has to fear? Did he think the driver wanted more light in order to shoot the cops?

Do you remember that incident in which the guy was crawling down the hallway, following the cops' orders to the best of his ability, and he was killed because he tried to pull up his pants? Do you think that this driver doesn't remember all these incidents, and maybe thinks he's in a no-win situation with a cop who is already pre-disposed to shoot? He likely thought he had just as much chance of surviving by staying in the car (or not making *any* movement that, despite being his best effort at compliance, would cause the cop to shoot).

As for the delay in putting his hands out the window: was he not getting out his phone and putting it on the dashboard?

Do you remember that incident in Feb in New Mexico where a cop was shot to death during a traffic stop in broad daylight next to the side of the road? I'm certainly not going to claim these cops in this incident acted correctly; they certainly seem to have acted very poorly. However, when talking about what it is that a cop has to fear, whether people want to admit it or not, these traffic stops can go fatally wrong for cops in an instant, and they have to repeatedly go out and perform them anyway.

I believe you could look at the bigger picture of what the role of the officer should be vs is today. Pulled over for a tag violation is extremely minor. Why pull over in the first place? Policing for the purpose of citation issue vs policing to protect and serve. I believe you could look at the policing in the US overall and redefine what their purpose is and where their focus should be placed. Is time better spend on traffic enforcement or some other police activity that potentially provides a greater benefit to society. Is this protect and serve or something else. Not saying that the US should be like other countries but I've seen other countries police forces focus on other things besides code/traffic enforcement. Not decided if it's better or not but worth a thought.

An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure. Criminals not stopped on their way to a crime results in someone innocent getting killed. Most civilized nations heavily rely on crime prevention and immediate sanctions for smaller offenses (theft/larceny). And Citizen engagement is supported and encouraged.

Nope, not in the usa. Instead, innocent citizens are turned into enemies of the police, as cops endlessly harass citizens for non-crimes. Just so cops can reach their quotas of citations and arrests, all to, ... uh, "pay the rent". Don't believe me about this, the police themselves (the decent and honest officers) lay it out for all of us to see.

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
--

Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]

Apr 12, 21 11:35

Post #120 of 157 (633 views)

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

windschatten wrote:

Tik wrote:

slowguy wrote:

klehner wrote:

sphere wrote:

Ok.

Do you think it’s reasonable for even well trained officers to be fearful in situations where a nighttime driver continues for another mile after being flagged, refuses to show his hands after repeated instruction, refuses to exit the vehicle?

I’m not defending the cop or blaming the driver for anything beyond what they are immediately responsible for. If either party were a friend or family member and we had a conversation about it, my advice would be the same. You know better, do better. Everything about that interaction was wrong.

The driver continued to a well-lit gas station. What is it at that point that the cop has to fear? Did he think the driver wanted more light in order to shoot the cops?

Do you remember that incident in which the guy was crawling down the hallway, following the cops' orders to the best of his ability, and he was killed because he tried to pull up his pants? Do you think that this driver doesn't remember all these incidents, and maybe thinks he's in a no-win situation with a cop who is already pre-disposed to shoot? He likely thought he had just as much chance of surviving by staying in the car (or not making *any* movement that, despite being his best effort at compliance, would cause the cop to shoot).

As for the delay in putting his hands out the window: was he not getting out his phone and putting it on the dashboard?

Do you remember that incident in Feb in New Mexico where a cop was shot to death during a traffic stop in broad daylight next to the side of the road? I'm certainly not going to claim these cops in this incident acted correctly; they certainly seem to have acted very poorly. However, when talking about what it is that a cop has to fear, whether people want to admit it or not, these traffic stops can go fatally wrong for cops in an instant, and they have to repeatedly go out and perform them anyway.

I believe you could look at the bigger picture of what the role of the officer should be vs is today. Pulled over for a tag violation is extremely minor. Why pull over in the first place? Policing for the purpose of citation issue vs policing to protect and serve. I believe you could look at the policing in the US overall and redefine what their purpose is and where their focus should be placed. Is time better spend on traffic enforcement or some other police activity that potentially provides a greater benefit to society. Is this protect and serve or something else. Not saying that the US should be like other countries but I've seen other countries police forces focus on other things besides code/traffic enforcement. Not decided if it's better or not but worth a thought.

An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure. Criminals not stopped on their way to a crime results in someone innocent getting killed. Most civilized nations heavily rely on crime prevention and immediate sanctions for smaller offenses (theft/larceny). And Citizen engagement is supported and encouraged.

Nope, not in the usa. Instead, innocent citizens are turned into enemies of the police, as cops endlessly harass citizens for non-crimes. Just so cops can reach their quotas of citations and arrests, all to, ... uh, "pay the rent". Don't believe me about this, the police themselves (the decent and honest officers) lay it out for all of us to see.

i think the cop(s) were universally at fault here. i don't see the black lieutenant at fault one iota, even tho that guy didn't behave the way i would have. but i don't think your comments are helpful. you were just flat wrong about what would happen to this cop. i think way over half the cops in this country are good people. good at their jobs. do not intend to escalate. where i live - which is racially mixed - we have had our share of bad cops. but the vast majority are good cops, and community policing is encouraged and policies are in place to foster this. we still have a long way to go, but i don't think we'll get there by just throwing shade on cops. your words brought to mind trump's escalator speech about mexicans. "and i assume some are good people."

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [windschatten] [ In reply to ]

Apr 12, 21 11:37

Post #121 of 157 (646 views)

windschatten wrote:

An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure.
Criminals not stopped on their way to a crime results in someone innocent getting killed.
Most civilized nations heavily rely on crime prevention and immediate sanctions for smaller offenses (theft/larceny). And Citizen engagement is supported and encouraged. Non of that ‘none of your/my business’ garbage.

That’s one of the major reasons why they have less felony crime and their jails aren’t overcrowded. It’s not the guns.
.

Guns? Why would you bring up guns?

Other civilized nations don’t have overcrowded jails and prisons, but it has absolutely nothing to do with making more traffic stops. That’s a comical assertion. But since you are open to looking at other civilized nations for guidance, maybe we should look at how they police, how they conduct their war on drugs, and overall minimum sentencing guidelines. I mean, if you really care about felony crime and overcrowded prisons.

Do you ever find fault in anything LEO does? You are sounding like a back the blue at all costs kind of thinker.

Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]

Apr 12, 21 11:39

Post #122 of 157 (640 views)

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

windschatten wrote:

Tik wrote:

slowguy wrote:

klehner wrote:

sphere wrote:

Ok.

Do you think it’s reasonable for even well trained officers to be fearful in situations where a nighttime driver continues for another mile after being flagged, refuses to show his hands after repeated instruction, refuses to exit the vehicle?

I’m not defending the cop or blaming the driver for anything beyond what they are immediately responsible for. If either party were a friend or family member and we had a conversation about it, my advice would be the same. You know better, do better. Everything about that interaction was wrong.

The driver continued to a well-lit gas station. What is it at that point that the cop has to fear? Did he think the driver wanted more light in order to shoot the cops?

Do you remember that incident in which the guy was crawling down the hallway, following the cops' orders to the best of his ability, and he was killed because he tried to pull up his pants? Do you think that this driver doesn't remember all these incidents, and maybe thinks he's in a no-win situation with a cop who is already pre-disposed to shoot? He likely thought he had just as much chance of surviving by staying in the car (or not making *any* movement that, despite being his best effort at compliance, would cause the cop to shoot).

As for the delay in putting his hands out the window: was he not getting out his phone and putting it on the dashboard?

Do you remember that incident in Feb in New Mexico where a cop was shot to death during a traffic stop in broad daylight next to the side of the road? I'm certainly not going to claim these cops in this incident acted correctly; they certainly seem to have acted very poorly. However, when talking about what it is that a cop has to fear, whether people want to admit it or not, these traffic stops can go fatally wrong for cops in an instant, and they have to repeatedly go out and perform them anyway.

I believe you could look at the bigger picture of what the role of the officer should be vs is today. Pulled over for a tag violation is extremely minor. Why pull over in the first place? Policing for the purpose of citation issue vs policing to protect and serve. I believe you could look at the policing in the US overall and redefine what their purpose is and where their focus should be placed. Is time better spend on traffic enforcement or some other police activity that potentially provides a greater benefit to society. Is this protect and serve or something else. Not saying that the US should be like other countries but I've seen other countries police forces focus on other things besides code/traffic enforcement. Not decided if it's better or not but worth a thought.

An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure. Criminals not stopped on their way to a crime results in someone innocent getting killed. Most civilized nations heavily rely on crime prevention and immediate sanctions for smaller offenses (theft/larceny). And Citizen engagement is supported and encouraged.

Nope, not in the usa. Instead, innocent citizens are turned into enemies of the police, as cops endlessly harass citizens for non-crimes. Just so cops can reach their quotas of citations and arrests, all to, ... uh, "pay the rent". Don't believe me about this, the police themselves (the decent and honest officers) lay it out for all of us to see.

Agreed. Police is not part of the People, it’s the enemy of the People.
Because the only interaction with the People occurs when things have gone pear-shaped and they get out of the cocoon of their cruisers in battle mode.
And then the pick-and choosing starts.
.

Last edited by: windschatten: Apr 12, 21 11:46

Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Apr 12, 21 11:46

Post #123 of 157 (632 views)

Slowman wrote:

i think the cop(s) were universally at fault here. i don't see the black lieutenant at fault one iota, even tho that guy didn't behave the way i would have. but i don't think your comments are helpful. you were just flat wrong about what would happen to this cop. i think way over half the cops in this country are good people. good at their jobs. do not intend to escalate. where i live - which is racially mixed - we have had our share of bad cops. but the vast majority are good cops, and community policing is encouraged and policies are in place to foster this. we still have a long way to go, but i don't think we'll get there by just throwing shade on cops. your words brought to mind trump's escalator speech about mexicans. "and i assume some are good people."

First, you and I both know that if this incident was not publicized, neither cop would have lost his job. I guarantee it.

Second, I throw zero shade on honest and decent cops, except on clearly incompetent ones. However, I throw MASSIVE shade on police departments and those in the system that look the other way. And unfortunately there are lots of those folks.

But, about all of my comments, if you got a couple of minutes, listen to this (it will be worth every single second):
https://www.thisamericanlife.org/...ain-silent/act-two-0

And then come back tell me how off base I am. Note that what is being described in this audio is still happening today throughout the United States. Nothing has changed.

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
--

Last edited by: DarkSpeedWorks: Apr 12, 21 12:36

Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [windschatten] [ In reply to ]

Apr 12, 21 11:47

Post #124 of 157 (629 views)

windschatten wrote:

Tik wrote:

slowguy wrote:

klehner wrote:

sphere wrote:

Ok.

Do you think it’s reasonable for even well trained officers to be fearful in situations where a nighttime driver continues for another mile after being flagged, refuses to show his hands after repeated instruction, refuses to exit the vehicle?

I’m not defending the cop or blaming the driver for anything beyond what they are immediately responsible for. If either party were a friend or family member and we had a conversation about it, my advice would be the same. You know better, do better. Everything about that interaction was wrong.

The driver continued to a well-lit gas station. What is it at that point that the cop has to fear? Did he think the driver wanted more light in order to shoot the cops?

Do you remember that incident in which the guy was crawling down the hallway, following the cops' orders to the best of his ability, and he was killed because he tried to pull up his pants? Do you think that this driver doesn't remember all these incidents, and maybe thinks he's in a no-win situation with a cop who is already pre-disposed to shoot? He likely thought he had just as much chance of surviving by staying in the car (or not making *any* movement that, despite being his best effort at compliance, would cause the cop to shoot).

As for the delay in putting his hands out the window: was he not getting out his phone and putting it on the dashboard?

Do you remember that incident in Feb in New Mexico where a cop was shot to death during a traffic stop in broad daylight next to the side of the road? I'm certainly not going to claim these cops in this incident acted correctly; they certainly seem to have acted very poorly. However, when talking about what it is that a cop has to fear, whether people want to admit it or not, these traffic stops can go fatally wrong for cops in an instant, and they have to repeatedly go out and perform them anyway.

I believe you could look at the bigger picture of what the role of the officer should be vs is today. Pulled over for a tag violation is extremely minor. Why pull over in the first place? Policing for the purpose of citation issue vs policing to protect and serve. I believe you could look at the policing in the US overall and redefine what their purpose is and where their focus should be placed. Is time better spend on traffic enforcement or some other police activity that potentially provides a greater benefit to society. Is this protect and serve or something else. Not saying that the US should be like other countries but I've seen other countries police forces focus on other things besides code/traffic enforcement. Not decided if it's better or not but worth a thought.

An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure.
Criminals not stopped on their way to a crime results in someone innocent getting killed.
Most civilized nations heavily rely on crime prevention and immediate sanctions for smaller offenses (theft/larceny). And Citizen engagement is supported and encouraged. Non of that ‘none of your/my business’ garbage.

That’s one of the major reasons why they have less felony crime and their jails aren’t overcrowded. It’s not the guns.
.

Can you show your work please?

Crimes like car theft, burglary, and others the US is very similar to other advanced economies. Yet, their prisons are not over crowded and their police shoot way less of their citizens than other countries.

Re: Fixin’ to ride the lightning [windschatten] [ In reply to ]

Apr 12, 21 11:48

Post #125 of 157 (628 views)

windschatten wrote:

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

windschatten wrote:

An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure. Criminals not stopped on their way to a crime results in someone innocent getting killed. Most civilized nations heavily rely on crime prevention and immediate sanctions for smaller offenses (theft/larceny). And Citizen engagement is supported and encouraged.

Nope, not in the usa. Instead, innocent citizens are turned into enemies of the police, as cops endlessly harass citizens for non-crimes. Just so cops can reach their quotas of citations and arrests, all to, ... uh, "pay the rent". Don't believe me about this, the police themselves (the decent and honest officers) lay it out for all of us to see.

Agreed. Police is not part of the People, it’s the enemy of the People.
Because the only interaction with the People occurs when things have gone pear-shaped and they get out of the cocoon of their cruisers in battle mode.
And then the pick-and choosing starts.

This is not correct. Interaction with People also often starts when said 'person' has actually done NOTHING wrong. NOTHING.
See:
https://www.thisamericanlife.org/...ain-silent/act-two-0

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
--

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