In many areas, there are literally hundreds of applicants for every teaching position. Despite what teachers unions are going to try to tell you, there should be zero problem finding people (especially with tens of millions of unemployed) to fill these seats. And they don't need subs, if the teachers don't want to work and there are willing replacements, they should be hired.

I'm currently an unemployed engineer/data analyst and if I don't have a job in September, would gladly teach high school physics, math, chemistry, computer programming or history if that job was available.

Edit: I missed your question about subs, that is a good point, no matter who the teachers are, if they get sick they need to quarantine. That could be very expensive, unless they will probably have to be willing to provide "sick pay" for a substitute (if they get infected). But to my original point, I think there are plenty of teachers available, but managing potential disruptions with a lot more people out sick (and the potential for every absence to be 14 days) creates a logistical challenge. They will need a deep bench and they will probably have to be willing to pay substitutes a fair wage (people complain about teacher salaries, wait until they see what a sub makes).

Terminate their pensions boon for local government

This is exactly why teachers unions exist.

its going to be a shit show in the fall.

A lot of teachers are older (20% of teachers of 55+) . If you are 50 or 60+ and teaching, is it worth it for you to go in? If you have health problems, etc.? This is just baseline for teachers. Then you have the admin staff, with the same problems.

Subs are not going to be the problem. There are thousands of recent college grads without jobs.

There is no plan.

I hate saying this because I believe in person teaching is necessary, but I don't see how schools can open this fall. If I can't go to a restaurant, I don't see how kids can go to school. Note, when I say can't go to a restaurant, that is by choice. Until we have a vaccine or viable safe treatment, we shouldn't really re-open. If this lasts more than a year or looks like there will not be a viable vaccine, then we have to weigh the cost of herd immunity and that would cost way too many lives. This is a crappy situation but one that I think we may see several more times during my lifetime and I'm in my 50s. There are no good answers and this isn't something govt. can fix. Even if we do everything Kay always mentions, many will die and we are not solving the problem, just coping better than we are now.

https://www.theatlantic.com/...re-difficult/613861/

So they can break their contract and get paid still?

I am not sure what the solutions would be so kids can go to school. I think it would require a shit ton of testing, almost every teacher tested daily. Parents tested weekly, etc. A classroom has covid, it is closed for a week or so. Limit in-school interactions outside of classrooms (elementary school would be possible because no class shifting-middle/highschools much harder because they interact with so many more people).

Over the summer we were supposed to curb the number of cases to a manageable level. This hasnt happened. Things will flair up with vengeance one the weather gets cooler, its just how it happens with the flu.

I think the best case scenario for kids is going to be some of being in the classroom 1/4 of the time.

With that being said. I am thinking of sending my kids back to daycare in October/November. This will give me 3-4 months to see how schools opening in Texas in August play out. There has not been a shortage of daycare workers and they get paid like 12$ an hour with minimum benefits.

Huh?

Actually a colossal shit show. Newly married to a teacher, who is out of work. The burden of all the new Covid protocols/SOP's will fall right into the teachers area of responsibility. I can see many just saying "fuck it, not worth it...low pay, covid...oh yeah and still have to meet educational standards..."

Low pay? The average salary at my high school is 110K plus benefits the grade school is like 75K.

Ah yes. Teachers across the USA are know for their high paying jobs.

Yes-I have a friend who is a high school science teacher. Apparently our state redlined all lab requirements from the standards for next year. She has no idea if she is even allowed to do labs, if she can have kids in groups or pairs doing labs. If she can do the same pre-recorded online curriculum for days students are Not in class so she can focus on labs when they are in class etc. and she has three different class to prepare for yet she can’t really starts with no guidance. Plus what if her 2nd grader doesn’t have school or has to quarantine.

It’s crazy.

Seriously how is this going to work?

Lets say one high school student gets symptoms? Does every one in the school quarantine? Or just the 50% that goes on the same days at that student? But if it is just the 50%, what about the teachers, couldn't they then spread it to the other 50%?

If someone does show symptoms, how quickly can a test be turned around? Right now it taking 7 days in some areas to turn around tests that are not for critical cases (hospitals patients and staff). If students become priority to turn around tests for, then that just pushes more people further out. Is everyone going to quarantine while they wait the 7 days? Are they just going to test the person with symptom? If you test more, it just causes the test back log to get worse.

Do we even have enough test supplies ready for the increase in tests that this will cause, let alone be able to ramp up the rate we can process tests?

Are schools going to get extra funding to do cleanings every night so that infections don't spread from one class to the next?

Do schools have the budget to buy enough masks? Are we going to be taking the masks away from other essential services to open up schools?

Opening up schools in the fall seems like a disaster right now. We have not done what would be required to do it and there appears to be no real plan. It could pretty quickly break our already damaged testing capability.

I just relayed facts. Do with it what you will

WW...live in East, TN...known for super low cost of living...which is in part due to low paying teaching job. Here in Knoxville 15+ years in Public schools with a MS degree = @ $45-55k

I mean. Yes. Some teachers are paid well. Most are not.

Do you believe across the United States that teachers have high paying jobs? If your answer to this is no. Then what value is your comment?

Adjusted for COL probably middle class to upper middle class when benefits are taken into account.

This X 100. Wife teaches MS Science. Labs are a huge part of science ciriculum.

Teachers do not get paid upper middle class salaries

https://www.google.com/...report-says.amp.html

The average teachers salary in America is a shade over $60K but by all means continue on being a pedantic "canary."

I'd be more worried about 20% of the tax revenue for education not coming back.

My wife is a teacher who is currently on a maternity leave. We were going to switch in November prior to the pandemic since it worked for our travel schedule. Now its mostly about when she wants to go back to work and then I'll go off with our daughter for remainder of the leave.

We're in Ontario. The Government's current plan is to split the class into 2 cohorts and do Mon/Tues with one cohort, Wednesday clean the classroom, and Thursday/Friday with the other cohort, with 3 days of online learning for everyone.

Let's just say that she won't be heading back in September.

I taught HS physics and chemistry for 23 years after 20 years in the USAF. When I was starting to look into teaching, one of my friends who was teaching told me, "There are two things most people think they can do. Run a restaurant and teach school. But a lot of them can't do either." Absolutely true.

It's more than showing up at eight o'clock, tossing out some of your thoughts to a bunch of eager students who can't wait to listen to your scintillating lectures, and then heading home at four o'clock. It's a fact that there aren't "hundreds of applicants for every teaching position" here in west TX/eastern NM. It's especially difficult to find math and science teachers for high school. Throw in the additional squares you need to fill to become an "AP Teacher", and you'll really struggle to fill those positions.

But schools do need to bring students back to the classroom. Virtual learning isn't working for the students. There will need to be new procedures and precautions that everyone will have to follow. And if teachers don't want to work under these conditions, they'll need to be replaced. Here's hoping the schools can find replacements who have the required subject knowledge and who can apply their knowledge to teaching kids.

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"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.

What is the average tenure? What is starting pay?

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TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.

And that isn't middle class especially considering benefits?

where did you go to high school?

Eyeroll emoji

I'm not sure where you live but there are not literally hundreds of applicants for every teaching position. The idea that anyone can go into a classroom and teach is probably one of the stupidest things many Americans believe. One thing the quarantine proved was that parents in general had no clue on how to teach their children.

You sound like one of those, "anybody can be a teacher" people.

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TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.

Starting is mid 50's to 60's IIRC.... life, you don't leave

ETA that's basic bachelors no experience most have a minimum of masters and some experience...very hard to get a job at the HS.

Suburb of Chicago

What school? Are you seriously going to use Maine South or New Trier as examples?

By saying in this thread. Teachers on avg across the country make 60k.

I believe middle class now is around 70k across the country.

By that. Teachers are being paid less than the avg middle class, and certainly not upper middle class. If we (and the facts) are going to say teachers make lower middle class salaries, I agree

Why not use them or Lake Forest, Highland Park, Evanston, Stevenson, Hinsdale Central, Lyons Township, Oak Park River Forest Libertyville and probably more that aren't popping to mind? They aren't hypothetical, now are they?

Wisconsin has a definite shortage of teachers - easing licencing requirements, making it easier for retired teachers to come back, etc.
Teacher college enrollments way down.
The teacher shortage is nationwide - and likely to widen as wages and benifits decrease. (google 'teacher shortage')
WI teacher's unions are kaput - so it's not union's fault. Mostly due to too much paperwork, teaching to tests, and increasingly bad behavior among students.
Now some WI districts are letting their teachers know there will likely be dismisals sometime during the year - when reduction in budgets are known.

https://www.investopedia.com/...e-class-are-you.aspx

Solidly middle class. Next?

To be fair, who wants to live in WI?

You relayed the facts in your area, which is typical of your comments, not across the USA. As I've stated on here many times, my wife is a teacher, with a doctorate in early childhood education, has been teaching 27 years, is one of the highest paid teachers in her district, which is one of the higher paying districts in Western PA. The average teacher salary in the state of PA is $71,245.00.

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TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.

Which is solidly middle class and not that bad considering the benefits buddy. Your argument is what......?

You, for one. But you can't drive in snow.

The teachers in west TX/eastern NM are taking one for the team in order to keep the average at $60K given the teachers in Windy's HS with six-figure incomes.

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"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.

Bitch please. I can drive in snow. The issue is the complete lack of plowing and salting in a blizzard

“The 2018 piece from Pew reported that, in 2016, the median income for the upper-income class was $187,872. While for the middle class, it was $78,442, and for the lower class, it was $25,624 (in 2016 dollars; figures reflect a three-person household).“


Got it. So middle class in78k. Avg teacher pay around 60k. This is lower middle class.

And the cost of living in West Texas compared to here friend? Just do Midland Odessa to Chicago.

Sigh

This Pew classification means that the category of middle-income is made up of people making somewhere between $40,500 and $122,000.

ETA learn what median means

Keep it coming

You were earlier arguing that teachers were middle to upper middle class.

I was always arguing that teachers were lower middle class.

You are no agreeing with me. 60k is much closer to the 40k side of the scale. Below the median.

Many of the comments on here are regarding the middle and high school aged kids. It will be much worse for the elementary kids. Most aren't able to do the work on their own and parents giving the lessons is a joke.

My wife's school is talking about offsetting days with the kids so 100% of the student population is not showing up every day. I'm not sure how this will work with families and the daycare problems that arise. My wife's school has a very large population of lower class families without home computers and wi-fi. As someone said earlier, the newer requirements are all going to fall on the teachers and give them just another thing to do in their classrooms and we'll have people like windy bitching about how teachers are overpaid.

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TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.

110K average when 122K is the top end => some make more than 110K => having reviewed the salaries of teachers some made over 122k => middle to upper middle class. Next?

Where is data showing teachers on avg make 110?

I agree some teachers are upper class.

Publicly available Illinois department of Education or something like that. You really think I'm making up the number?

It's in Chicago, the averages across the rest of the US don't matter. Remember, the cost of living in NM and West Texas is lower so they should be paid less, and they are, but that doesn't fit into his argument.

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TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.

Yes? https://patch.com/...y-how-illinois-ranks

Here's how the states ranked:

New York: $83,585
California: $81,126
Massachusetts: $79,710
District of Columbia: $76,486
Connecticut: $73,113
New Jersey: $69,917
Maryland: $69,761
Alaska: $69,474
Pennsylvania: $67,398
Illinois: $66,778

I agree. Not accounting for the cost of living people in major cities typically make above the middle wage of the USA. I didn’t know that was the point you were trying to make.

Pfft suburbs I moved remember

Trump on Monday "SCHOOLS MUST REOPEN!"
Florida on Tuesday "All schools must reopen in-person in August".

So that answers part of the questions - in some states beholden to Trump they'll go back, COVID rates be damned.

Everywhere else it must be, and should be, calibrated to the situation on the ground. In NYC now I'm comfortable saying schools should go back. If bars are closed you sit at home. If my kid isn't in school for 1 week in 2 in September then, assuming the NYC situation remains stable, they'll be spending every other week at camp, or in the care of a neighbor with kids with whom we'll trade off. He will come home to me, who will likely have spent the day in an office in Manhattan which I'll likely reach via the subway. I don't see any incremental benefit from lowering capacity at schools in that reality and think the changes they're discussing will push the creaking NYC public school system over the edge.

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"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

I’m sure people are just as concerned about whether college professors will return to the classroom and how much they make!

I'd fire a shit ton of them personally

What about kids that require riding the bus to get to school? Are school buses going to be running? If one of the kids on bus tests positive, will all the kids that ride the bus be quarantined? Tested?

Will kids in the same family all go in the same day?

So much needs to figured out.

Well Michigan ain't one of your area's with Hundreds of applicants. Michigan has had a teacher shortage for a while. They actually let kids graduate early and start teaching if they find a full time job, because there is such a shortage?

So your just going to walk in and say, hey I can teach. Do you have your state's Teaching Certificate? What type of education / training have you had to be a teacher?

Sub pay varies GREATLY by district. Subs need far less training also.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

It is a stupid idea to suggest that anyone can go into a classroom, and I never suggested such. So you sound like one those, "I'm going to ignore what you said and create a strawman argument because I don't really know what I'm talking about."

But I can tell you that in the northeast united states, teachers salaries are relatively high and getting a job is very competitive. This is not universally true, but in NY, NJ, MA, CT, RI, NH I think it is quite accurate. I hear more complaints about teachers being layed off or having trouble getting a job than I do about a lack of teachers or that the pay is bad. And this is from two family members who are teachers.

I've worked for 20 years as a professional, including being qualified as a classroom instructor in two different companies, running the instructor training for a program that was eligible for two years of college credit, establishing and running a mentoring program at another company, and serving as a youth mentor in my community, but yes I would be completely unqualified to teach in a school. And I am probably some kind of exceptional human, there is no way anyone else like me exists that could possibly come and teach this fall if some teachers don't want to take the risk.

Actually yes. I have a masters degree (mechanical engineering), two undergraduate degrees (history, chemical engineering), several certificates in computer science and statistics and extensive teaching experience in the corporate sector (And can get references from corporate training managers to attest to my capabilities). I've also run a corporate mentoring program and served as a youth mentor in my community (including passing necessary background checks and going through an extensive training program to work with adolescents). So I believe I might be qualified to teach math, physics, chemistry, computer science, or history in a high school or middle school.

If a school system refused to give me a provisional teaching certificate, then I can't control union rules to exclude individuals who may be more objectively qualified than their members but lack a specific piece of paper (which they could complete while working on a provisional cert) is no basis to say someone is unqualified to teach.

And per an earlier post, I am aware that substitute teacher is low and remarked that they will probably need to increase it to attract the necessary talent. But my original point, which I fully stand by is that there are plenty of qualified individuals. And with respect to salaries, it is quite clear that where salaries are too low, there may be a lack of qualified applicants and where the pay is reasonable there is a large excess (which makes complete sense). In aggregate there are more than enough capable individuals, the problem is some communities don't want to pay and they get what you would expect, a local scarcity. That doesn't mean there is a lack of overall supply, there is a lack of incentive. #economics

A quick google showed average teacher pay in chicago is 61k. FWIW.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

That would be a 'yes'. Anything to derail another thread from what was the subject to whatever you feel you want to talk about. Good job.

This! These logistics are still unanswered. Bus monitors so the kids are 6 ft apart? No talking on the bus? Isolate them like prisoners?

Walking through the halls etc,

My wife is middle school math. The solutions (or lack thereof) are mind boggling. We pay the superintendent $250k/yr and they just put teams together last month to “figure out” the Fall...oh, and then they scrapped the committee.

They proposed the middle school kids bump up to the HS and each teacher’s class is split into two rooms that s/he has to bounce back and forth between during the same period. 2-3 days a week and then online.

Do parents now have to stay home when their kids are home? What about their jobs? What about more than one kid doing distance learning? How many computers do families have to buy? Because if a parent works from home then they presumably need a computer also. Some districts have chrome books, but this will be a nightmare.

If subbing or teaching is something you're interested in, you need to get in contact with your local district now and see what the requirements are. In Colorado subs need to be given a sub license by the state, and that can take... a while. It took them 3 months to process my initial applications after I graduated. Subbing is a thankless job. You're not teaching (unless you're a long term sub), you're babysitting. The pay isn't the only draw back, it's the substitute systems themselves. If you want to sub full time in most places that means driving all over the district to a different school every couple days. But that will probably change with all of this. With your background you would qualify for an alternative license to teach in CO and FL (the two states I am familiar with). That takes even more time and has lots of hoops to jump through. My experience with teachers that have alternative licenses are mixed. Some succeed and do very well. Most struggle. The hard part of teaching isn't the content. It's the classroom management and relationships. More difficult to get down without formal education in it, and even then that is the part most new teachers struggle with.

Speaking to the teacher pay discussion, I am in a suburb of Denver, and most starting pay is around $40k here. Average pay is definitely skewed by experienced teachers with advanced degrees, as well as higher paying (and high COL areas). I have a friend that lived in Prescott. Master degree, long time teacher. When she moved to Denver she doubled her pay up from the $20k range. Prescott isn't that cheap.

As far as plans in reopening- the districts are not bringing in teachers as part of the conversations from what I have seen from my own experiences, as well as my wife's, and friends that are teachers. They also did not consult teachers when switching to online education in the spring. Many districts adopted cookie cutter online programs that do little to boost student engagement and investment in education. We had policy dictated to us, and we're headed that way again for the fall. Not much has been said to teachers I know scattered around, and that makes us nervous. We are one month out, most states are seeing increases in cases, and we have no idea what the plan it. Fun stuff.

Sorry replied to the wrong post..

No you are not qualified to teach.. You are qualified in knowing the subject, I would guess you have little training in child psychology, classroom management, Crisis management. and whole host of other things.

I posted Sub pay in SE michigan above 75-125 and that is in a State with a teacher shortage. No sub pay has little to do with supply and demand, it has to do with district budgets and contracts. You might not like the union/management agreed to rules, but they are in place, and no a district can not just side step them, cause your so qualified.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Our district just sent out their survey to see how many kids are coming back and who is doing online, have not read the details of their back to work.

But really Teachers are the least vulnerable members of a functional school. The Janitors and Bus drivers are as a demographic older and in poor health than the teachers.

What happens when 20% of the bus drivers drop out? Or not enough Janitors to clean everything?

Lots of unkowns, glad mine are in college or just out. Of course the college scene is also in the air and a mess.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

So I believe I might be qualified to teach math, physics, chemistry, computer science, or history in a high school or middle school.

If a school system refused to give me a provisional teaching certificate, then I can't control union rules to exclude individuals who may be more objectively qualified than their members but lack a specific piece of paper (which they could complete while working on a provisional cert) is no basis to say someone is unqualified to teach
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This only goes to show that you have absolutely no idea what qualifies one to teach high school or middle school. And those qualifications are controlled by the state, not the teacher's union.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Still live in the suburbs

That hurts. I might be a lot of things but accusing me of that is uncalled for and low.

You live in a Chicago suburb, you say?

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Long Chile was a silly place.

Yeah not aurora

What happens when 20% of the bus drivers drop out? Or not enough Janitors to clean everything?

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I think transportation logistics are going to be a huge barrier. The current recommendation is for 1 child per seat and everyone in masks. When the old system had 2-3 kids per seat, there's a huge disconnect between the recommendation and the reality of the situation.

As for the janitors... I think the onus will be placed, once again, on the teachers to clean and sanitize their rooms on a regular basis. Someone likened it to being a pre-school teacher who basically wipes everything down during recess and again at the end of the day. I also have no idea how they're going to monitor or manage all of the safety precautions that are on the list. It seems unattainable at this moment.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

There's actually a teacher shortage. Now, you may be correct that there are "many areas" with "hundreds" of applicants for every teaching position (I'm only quoting for emphasis), but it certainly isn't in most areas.


FWIW, I'm going off of memory and the shortest of google searches, so please correct me if I'm mistaken.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

In my wife's school they have basically made everything wipe-able. She had flexible seating for 2nd graders since they each learn in differing methods. We had to go in and remove all of the seating she had put in place so they could go back to rows and desks, perfectly spaced. The open flexible seating concept she was using kept her classroom incidents to all time lows. Kids that have attention problems worked well when sitting in a position where they were more comfortable.

There are going to be a lot of changes and it will be taking one step forward and two steps back.

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TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.

see my earlier post. There are both excesses and shortages of teachers, because all schools are local. But pretty much any shortage of labor is usually just a simple case of an unwillingness to pay the right wages.

to the extent that communities pay reasonable salaries (most of the northeast for example) there is no shortage. to the extent that a some places have shitty pay, they can't find people.

Obviously COVID doesn't make teaching any more appealing, so the reality is, a lot of places will have even bigger shortages if they don't provide enough incentives. But with tens of millions out of work, there is a large labor supply. And no anyone off the street cannot walk in on day one and be a complete teacher, but to suggest there is no way to figure things out (train and mentor people) or that people who already have college degrees need to go back to school for five more years before we could let them near a classroom is a ridiculous position too.

I would say the odds of schools reopening in early/mid august, are about the same as a WTC race happening. There is so much confusion going on at the federal level, all the way down to the smallest county. Like someone said, a lot of teachers are not even in on this conversation right now, and it is just over a month away! We can see that major league sports have put their players in a bubble, test them every single day, they are adults, and they cannot control the spread. What the hell are a classroom of 5 to 15 year olds gonna do better than these guys?

And in the background the cases are spiking all around us, with no end in sight as far as I can see. And even when we do peak, it will level off for a very long time, and then a slow downward slide. Opening schools is going to supersize the virus, once again like the bars and other businesses that opened too early. But no doubt the idiots that fomented that paradigm, will just say that kids hardly get it, and they almost never get sick. You know, like now they are saying it is 20 to 40 year olds getting it, and nothing to see there either.

I know there are a lot of parents that are or will be back working, and school is the most elegant solution to the problem of what to do with them. But does anyone really think that every single school that opens, will not get positive cases almost immediately, and then what? Contact tracing only works when you have the numbers as close to 0 as possible, not 50k to 100k per day, and that multiplied by some big number that are not being captured.

And the real icing on this not happening, is the fact that trump is demanding it right now, along with his mini me in Florida. If there was ever a signal that schools are doomed to be closed again, this is it..And believe me, I want them back as bad as any of you, a 9 year old and twin 6 year olds are no picnic 27/7. But getting really sick, maybe dying or getting a lifelong ailment, well that is even less of a picnic, so I will find a way to make it work. Up until the time someone can get our country back and make it work again.

All good points.


Not to derail the thread, but as you know I used to be a HS teacher and can rant for hours about education. There are a lot of factors the lead to the teacher shortage, and pay isn't really one of them, though I certainly agree that pay will attract a lot more people (ie when I left, I more or less said, "I'm putting up with all of this crap for only $X a year." Had X been much higher, I might have stuck around).

I predicted the shortage about a decade before it happened, and truth be told, I pretty much suck at predicting the future, but I nailed that one. In a nutshell, the "fixes" for education that were put in place were increasing needless hoops that people would have to jump through to become teachers, make them give up a lot of their off time jumping through even more needless hoops, and micromanage their jobs. All without any increase in pay. They thought this was going to "make teachers better." What it ended up doing was making the job suck worse with no added benefits to the students (which = job satisfaction for the teachers) or the teachers (ie pay).

So in a nutshell, I'm with you on the point that they can fill those vacancies, but it'll be less about pay and more about just lowering the job requirements.



A bit of background if you're still reading: the final straw for me was moving to PA from MD and not having my certification transfer. I had to take more tests. One was a complete BS essay test where I had to guess what answers they wanted to hear even though the answers that they wanted were wrong. I passed that test with the minimum score as nothing in my college classes covered any of the information, and all of the answers were subjective. I later found out that there were books that you could buy from the same company that made the tests that pretty much gave you the answers to all of the questions. Some of the teachers' colleges taught directly out of these books.

So I was "this close" to failing a BS test (which was later subject to a lawsuit). Meanwhile I scored a 95% on the math test, only to find out that the passing score was 35%, and that half of the prospective math teachers fail it on the first try. Then, when I applied for certification, I found out that two tests that I had taken 5 years and one month earlier had expired by one month and despite having double the passing scores, I needed to take them again incase I forgot how to read and write in those 5.1 years.

To this day I can't even be a substitute teacher in PA because my GPA, which is largely engineering credits, is 0.01 points below the standard. I tried to explain to them that engineering classes are harder, and that the average GPAs are about .5 points lower than in education classes because engineering programs don't inflate the grades nearly as much, and I might have well been speaking a different language.

So I said fuck it! I don't need this shit for $32K a year.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

One of my kids has a snotty nose. Both of them were sent home for two weeks. Neither child has a cough or fever. The older one doesn’t even have the snotty nose. This is in July, show me a young kid who doesn’t have a snotty nose in fall/winter. My kids will probably be home more often than at school.

Some are planning a hybrid model where half of the students attend on Monday and Thursday, the other half on Tuesday and Friday. The days they don't attend are dedicated to "remote learning" AKA fuck off on TickTock all day.

If they really want remote learning to work, the teachers need to be in full class zoom meetings at least four hours per day. This shit where they meet one hour a week, give assignments and then turn them in at the end of the week is just independent study. The majority of kids can't do that responsibly.

But this would mean many more hours for teachers, and they just aren't going to do it. You can't fire them because of union and tenure laws. They could also just strike (unsafe working conditions, overtime not in their contracts, etc) and postpone things indefinitely.

It doesn't matter anyway, it's going to blow up bigly in the fall and teachers will start calling in, and they will have justification under the OSHA unsafe work environment laws if there is active infection in the district (and there will be).

I think we'll have about 6 month of carnage and then 3 or 4 vaccines will be approved and faculty and students will be required to take one or not be able to attend.

Our school is small so that probably works in our favor during this time.

The school has purchased some kind of sanitizing diffuser. The way I understand it the janitors simply spray the whole room, not wipe every surface. I have an aide and she has a 6 month old baby so you can bet we will be wiping regardless.

I should meet your wife. Same exact situation for me - teach 2nd grade, took all my flexible seating home and brought in desks. I had to remove all the extra shelves, reading corner, group tables etc to make room for the desks to be spaced apart. Even then the best I can do is 3 1/2 - 4 feet. Thank goodness I have a 14 year old boy to help me move all of this stuff back and forth.

Other issues I have tried to plan for that relate to decreasing the spread of germs (I'm sure no one really cares and will not actually read all of this but it's making me feel better to type it all out this morning for some reason):

I have divided all supplies into individual sets for each child.

I am hanging paper trays with zip ties under their chairs because there is not enough room for them to store all of this in these tiny desks but I had to remove all extra shelves to make room for the desks spaced apart so there is no extra room to store anything. I do not happen to have 20 paper trays so I will have to go buy more.

I have used Velcro to attach boxes of tissues to the side of the desks so they aren't all traveling around the room to the same spot for tissues.

I have attached a hook with a plastic grocery sack next to the tissue box because they will need a spot to throw the tissue away.

I bought them each a small pencil sharpener and travel sized bottles to fill with hand sanitizer to keep at their desk.

I have cataloged my entire classroom library onto an app so students can pick out books by looking through my library on the app instead of crowding at the bookshelf. I will probably pay the $100 fee upgrade to utilize electronic check out features of this app.

My salary is $39,000 a year. My sister and I are primary caretakers for my 79 year old mother. Local people are constantly complaining about the students being required to wear masks. Social distancing and wearing masks is not a priority for a lot of people where I live. It's just NOT a good situation from any side you look at it.

The thought of quitting has definitely crossed my mind.

We were joking that masks for little kids should be called snot pockets. They need tear offs on the inside like the motocross guys wear on their goggles for mud. Any 1st grade classroom I’ve seen is just a mess of snotty kids for most of the winter.

It was really interesting to read all of the modifications you are making. It’s so clear you care about your students. Thank you!

Every time I am at a loss for words to explain what a clueless doofus you are, I will refer back to this comment. The bubble you grew up in is not representative of the rest of the country. Ignorance truly is bliss.

It was a statement of fact. There are many school districts with comparable pay. It's just a giant fucking bubble then, right?

The plural of anecdote is not data.

Toggle between the options in the graphic in this article. If your high school's average salary is $110k it's an aberration - in Illinois and even more so nationally.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/...altrysxr4-story.html

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"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

I'm in central IL and don't even make $40,000 a year.

Can't get to article. I realize the school districts I live in are at the top end, why do you think I chose to move here and pay an obscene amount in property taxes (which is also at the top end)? Hint it isn't spelled skool. But it also is not a complete outlier. There are a lot of school districts that pay really well. Some pay a lot less. That's how averages work.

Which is the point. You're in a bubble. Some school districts pay the rates you're using as support for your view that teachers are reasonably well paid. Some pay a lot less. The latter vastly outnumber the former. So yes, when you take an average, your argument falls apart.

********


"The starting CPS teacher salary of $52,958 is the highest for unit school districts in Illinois. Just five Illinois districts out-pay CPS in starting salary, according to data from the Illinois State Board of Education, and they are all high school districts in wealthy suburbs: Glenbrook, Maine Township, Evanston, Lyons and New Trier [guessing one of these bubbles is you?]. When adjusted for cost of living, the starting salary at CPS is also higher than those at the country’s other large public school districts in New York, Los Angeles, Las Vegas and Miami, according to data compiled by the National Council on Teacher Quality."

"The midcareer salary for CPS teachers with 10 years of experience and a master’s degree is $82,630, considerably higher than in suburban unit districts such as Aurora-based Indian Prairie, which pays $67,329, and Plainfield District 202, which pays $55,833. Adjusted for cost of living, CPS teachers in this category earn roughly $10,000 more than teachers in New York, almost $20,000 more than teachers in Los Angeles and around $30,000 more than teachers in Miami, according to the National Council on Teacher Quality data."

"There are about 19,700 full-time employees of CPS who are identified as teachers in their job title, including regular teachers, bilingual teachers, special education teachers, speech pathologist teachers and citywide teachers. Of that group, the average salary is $78,211 and the average benefit cost is $27,146, according to a Tribune analysis of CPS employee data."

"By comparison, in Clark County, Nevada, home to the country’s fifth-largest school district with enrollment of around 325,000, median household income is $57,076. Teachers there earn a starting salary of $41,863 and top out at $93,018. The average teacher salary is $60,000, and the average benefit cost is $26,000, a district spokesman said."

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"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

Seriously, I was doing a lesson about COVID and the spread of germs right before the shut down happened. While I was in the middle of the lesson a student picked up her folder and wiped her nose with it. Funniest part was the tissue box was on a shelf right in front of her!

And your cost of living relatively speaking is higher or lower than here?

For sure, I was actually just going to add that comment.

Google "Average teacher pay in Chicago" and "Average teacher pay in Illinois". Both will show that they are in the $60k range.

Please quit digging.

I guess Coward Twump has answered your Q. Schools that don't reopen in September will lose federal funding.

No need to protect children from a hoax.

https://www.politico.com/...deral-funding-352311

You do realize that when you mention the cost of living in relation to teacher salaries, your "well paid" argument falls apart even more?

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_____
TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.

What argument am I making? That teachers earn middle class wages?

Literally 98% of the high schools in Illinois have an average teacher salary below 100k. But since 1% have a salary of 110k, we have to concede to windy that high school teachers are well paid, because 2% are.

Your missing a big fact. Their salary is for about 9 months.

So comparing them purely to other professions on annual salary is not quite apples to apples.

But that further supports the comment that they are paid well. (Not pro-athlete, attorney, accountant, doctor, but definitely very good)

And then add in the tutoring they do in the summer on a "cash basis" and its even better.

Please provide PROOF that the AVERAGE salary in your high school is $110k. I am very curious to see those salary ranges and the qualifications.

Again genius all I did was state facts of my school districts. At any point did I dispute the average figures?

There are a few that have an average salary in that range, google New Trier. But the fact is they are literally in the top 1% of average salaries in the state.

Using 1% of teachers for your argument, is not an argument to say teachers are well paid.

https://www.illinoisreportcard.com

What's my argument? Use direct quotes

Middle class is what I said

 
I haven't read through this thread yet (I will) but thought I'd chime in. My wife took a year long medical leave last year and is due to go back at the end of this month. We live in Florida and the governor issued an order to force everyone back to school by mid August (teachers go back July 31st). We are really stressed out about sending our two girls back to school and over whether my wife should just quit or not. There hasn't really been much communication to the teachers regarding concrete plans and the feedback we are seeing from many of my wife's colleagues are that they are also weighing the risks to themselves and their families vs the reward (low teacher pay). Some teachers have no choice - they cannot afford to not go back. We can afford for my wife not to go back but with two high school aged daughters having a second income and being able to save some for their future would be nice. To complicate our decision one of our daughters wants to go back to school, the other one wants to do virtual school. Virtual school is problematic because she has special needs (and an IEP) so if she stays home really my wife probably can't work. So we are faced with some tough decisions that we have to make with in the next week during a huge surge in Covid in a highly polarized environment where it feels like half the FL population insists that this is all a hoax and there is no damn way they are wearing mask (and therefore I would assume their children won't).

There are so many unanswered questions regarding logistics and safety that it is mind-blowing that Florida isn't even considering starting school later this year. Why not push the school start date to some time in September at least? I would be shocked if the schools aren't forced to shut down again within a few short weeks or that the teachers decide to go on strike.

Someone implied teachers in general had low pay. You said:

"Low pay? The average salary at my high school is 110K plus benefits the grade school is like 75K."

Even if that were true a lot of people have pointed out that that is an outlier. The overwhelming majority of teachers aren't paid close to that. To one of the first you sarcastically replied:

"There are many school districts with comparable pay. It's just a giant fucking bubble then, right?"

I then provided you actual data to show that even if you did know a handful of districts where the average salary is something comparable to $110k / $75k (and we're all just stipulating that at this point) then yes, those districts collectively would represent one giant fucking bubble. Predictably, you ignored that data.


Maybe time to get this thread back on track? Teachers aren't taking a pay cut between now and September even if you're convinced they should. The questions seem to be (1) should schools reopen? (2) if so, how? and (3) with trillions of dollars of federal stimulus sloshing around, are Trump and DeVos going to do anything creative to help that to happen apart from stamp their feet and turn this into yet another front on the culture wars?

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"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

Remember that list of HS above. Why not go to the report card and check out the salaries your 1% comment is false. Spoiler every one I spot checked 100K or higher. Carry on.

Hey guy see the post above. Not an outlier carry on.

In the state, 99% of the schools have lower salaries. Is that not true?

Hey guy, there are 13,500 school districts in the US. 5 is quite a lot less than 1% of that. So yes, calling them outliers when I've already shown that Illinois is a national outlier is 100% justified, absent any national data you want to present to the contrasry. I'll tell you what, I'll go easy on you. If you can get to 1% - if you can find a decent source that indicates at least 135 school districts in the US pay something comparable to $110k / $75k on average, I'll cede the point. There's a few in Westchester that's the only hot spot I know well but you could start there. I'll wait.

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"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

Than the list I provided? I would have to do the math and then I would have to check the average salary of each district. I'll give you at least 90% probably 95% without doing the work, fair?

We need to get this back on track.

Does trump think that covid-19 will vote for him? Because he sure seems to be on covid-19s side here.

He is tweeting that schools should not follow CDC guidance, because it is too tough. What the hell is going on here? He then says he will talk with the CDC to change their guidance. What does he know about this? Why is he going against the experts?

This is just go dangerous and is going to result in people dead. All because the president does not want to deal with a problem. He and his supporters are fine with people dying.

I'm talking IL with Chappy you intercede now with national? Like I said to him I'll grant it's on the right side of the distribution

Can you find the American Academy of Pediatrics statement cum guidelines? I couldn't yesterday. I'm curious since the radio News said they differed

You're original refutation of the argument that teachers had "Low pay" was directed to soyousallsay (sp?) who didn't appear to be talking about IL. Plenty of replies on the first page gave you the opportunity to refine your post and make clear you were talking about your self defined bubble of outlier Illinois suburbs but you dodged them all.

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"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

I countered with middle class to upper middle class. Refutation of my statement was attempted and found wanting

Get your colleagues organized and strike against unsafe working conditions. It's going to be the only solution if cases are in your area in August.

The median salary in New Trier Twp HSD 203 is higher than 99.01% of School District median salaries in Illinois.

Thank you. I don't know why these threads always get derailed by the salary topic. I'm not thinking about my salary when I'm prepping my room. It's the farthest thing from my mind. How am I going to keep the children safe, healthy, meet their emotional needs and fears of the mask, teach them to read/write/add/subtract in the midst of all of this chaos. That's what I'm thinking about!

Here's the AAP guidance:

https://services.aap.org/...ducation-in-schools/

They strongly recommend in-person teaching but, notably have a long list of recommendations for risk mitigation practices - explicitly acknowledging that these are not risk elimination strategies. Assumign you can get teachers over that hump the question quickly becomes, where's the money?

If Trump wants to have this guidance govern then the absolute bare minimum Republicans should be proposing is a local stimulus package earmarked to restore district budgets to 100 + X % of pre-pandemic levels (and yes, there's a lot of scope for local governments to game that, it would take some doing). My kids teachers, like teachers across the country (except Illinois I assume), buy their classes' supplies. Their budget got slashed already this year. Who is going to pay for the soap, and the plastic sheeting and the staff to effectively cohort classes etc. etc.?

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"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

Great since I listed something close to 10 school districts greater than 1% it is

Hat tip

You already know this is impossible in Illinois.

Thanks for shitting all over this thread with your dumb argument about teacher salaries. The majority of new teachers are fresh out of college, are very green and aren't paid jack shit. They won't be protected by tenure, and a lot of them this year probably didn't even get far enough to be licensed by the state. And that is what schools will be scraping the bottom of the barrel for "if 20% of teachers don't come back".

Interesting. I know where our school districts are getting their plans from. I think it's feasible to implement the 3 to 6 foot desk hygiene and masks. Cohort below HS is easy. Not overly daunting IMO.

Cite to a source please

Where do you think new teachers come from mister Sea-lion?

Now fuck off.

The majority of teachers are fresh out of college and unlicensed is what i'm calling BS on

Here’s why you will not see this. You have already stated your district is a top outlier on pay. So let’s say the 20% of teachers who quit are evenly distributed- but we know that’s not true - you will have less attrition due to the cost benefit analysis with top salaries already. But if it was evenly distributed- your 20% will be filled with experienced teachers from the next tier of schools and so on down. Leaving the bottom tier of schools trying to fill 40% + with whomever they can hire last minute to replace the teachers you hired away from them.

It will be great for those in the million dollar homes- as our US school system has pretty much become a wealth building tool for homeowners. As your schools get disproportionately better so will your house prices. You’ll throw a mill levy in and the US system that was designed to aid mobility in society will continue doing exactly the opposite of that. Reserving the best public education for those who have an extremely high housing budget and reinforcing income inequality.

So, you should be good!

And you can keep trying to shut down conversations about the real worries that a large portion of the country will face because that’s not how it looks from your McMansion.

From the bolded...and after that figure out how to plan; for science - set up or take down a lab; then grade; then go home and record the on line teaching video. Oh, then prep for the test.

I am telling you the teachers are going to get shit on so bad, that the coming shortage will be massive.

McMansion? Please. It's a normal house.

What you describe may happen but I actually don't think it will. Commutes plus union rules i.e. seniority utilization of leave of absence would mean the HS here would probably use subs if they needed bodies (or increase workload within union rules) and the number of permanent hires would be low.

I was talking to a school principle who was trying to figure out what to do. Her superintendent was in the middle of a two week vacation and she figured the district couldn't wait until they came back to start to figure things out. She is getting the administrators together to talk about options. It doesn't sound like they are getting any sort of guidance from the state or federal levels, so they are just talking about what they are hearing other schools are thinking of doing. It would be nice if they had some sort detailed guidance from experts or guidelines that they can work from.

On top of all that, they have no idea what the situation will be like a month from now.

American Academy of Pediatrics that someone graciously found for my dumbass would be a good start

Just wanted to chime in and say you're doing a great job, WW, keep it up!

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Thanks Barry. Validation from you means the world to me

Hang in there, Buckaroo! You got this!

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Well, just in case they didn't have enough to think about, our wonderfully eloquent POTUS just threatened to cut off funding if schools don't re-open. Oh, stop with the sweet talk you dirty dog you.








Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump


In Germany, Denmark, Norway, Sweden and many other countries, SCHOOLS ARE OPEN WITH NO PROBLEMS. The Dems think it would be bad for them politically if U.S. schools open before the November Election, but is important for the children & families. May cut off funding if not open!

NEW CASES PER DAY: (July 7)
Germany - 397
Denmark - 47
Norway - 35
Sweden - 57
United States - 60,000+

wants all the rewards with none of the work.

yeah, but what about per capita numbers? clearly those countries have stopped testing while we ramp up. our numbers are larger because of our less homogeneous demographics. OK, i'm out of snarky replies for a single post.

I just saw on the NYC news that teachers who don't feel safe when school re-opens will be allowed to teach on-line classes.

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''Sweeney - you can both crush your AG *and* cruise in dead last!! 😂 '' Murphy's Law

did they happen to discuss what happens when Trump cuts their funding for not holding in-person classes or is that threat too recent for serious consideration?

This just popped up in my news feed- using a 20% attrition number too.

https://time.com/...rus-teachers-school/

How does this trickle down to qualified adults in the classroom when school opens in a month? How much notice do teachers have to give?

Fairfax County VA, are making people choose by 10 July:

2 days at school with two other days work set but no tuition; or

4 days online;

Parents must choose by 10 July and its locked in for the 20/21 school year. Without any change in spread, behaviour or a vaccine, that's going to be tough on teachers, parents and kids.

All because a small part of the population won't stay home and the president won't do his job.

Our family made our decision last night. The school gave us 2 options. Attend school daily or attend school daily via internet. We reviewed and discussed their preventative steps but strongly felt they were inadequate.

We chose to attend via the internet. This election is for the entire year. 1st grade for my grandson. We (his parents and one set of grand parents) will all step up to facilitate his education. We will create a classroom, including desk, computer, etc. and have a dedicated time for his daily learning. This is not home schooling. I see it as a hybrid. Curriculum, daily interaction, testing, are set by the public school. We just do the implementing.

We all have made sacrifices to keep our family safe. None of us eat out, play sports (golf, soccer, run), or otherwise interact with non family. We do not allow others into our family isolation unit. We do not want him to go to school, contract the virus, and spread it to the rest of us in our family isolation unit.

Not that it comes as a surprise to anyone, but this is of course another blatant lie. Schools in Germany are operating at very limited capacity, allowing only small numbers of students in classrooms at any given time. Depending on municipality, different models have been implemented to achieve that; most students are schooled at home for much of the school week.
The situation in Denmark is similar (a little bit more relaxed, but also with strict hygiene measures in place), so also still far from normal. Even Sweden has restricted in-person teaching for highschool-level students, and they are not doing so great anyway.
Don't know about Norway, but they definitely have extremely low infection numbers.

Not specifically to you but why are schools in the United States held hostage to Federal Funding? Is that freedom? Everywhere else I am aware of schools are funded much more locally.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

I suspect private school enrollments might be up. At least among those who can afford to pay. Do people want their kids education to be held hostage by political infighting?

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

We made the same decision in May for daycare. I don’t remember exactly when they decided to open but we thought it was crazy. We hired a nanny for both the kids 1.5 and almost 4. It’s more than daycare by quite a bit but there really isn’t much of another option for us. That is my concern for next year though, our daughter would be starting kindergarten. If this is the same situation in a year. I don’t see that happening and she’ll do Online/home school with the nanny, who has an early childhood development degree anyways.

My father in law, has more health problems than I can count. Nothing self imposed he’s just 75. My dad has shockingly few health problems beyond being overweight, and he’s been doing an amazing job lately working out and that has made a big difference for him.

But if they were in daycare it effectively means we couldn’t see them. One outbreak in the daycare could end up killing either of them. It’s obviously still a risk to see them now. But given everything we’re doing to social distance it’s minimal.

Luckily my wife and I both have very good jobs and are working from home for the foreseeable future. Without that it would be a completely different situation.

not that unreasonable

Federal funding accounts for <10% in most cases. Many public schools are critically underfunded so 10% of not enough is still a lot of leverage but it's still fair to say that public schools are locally funded.

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"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

Federal funding accounts for <10% in most cases. Many public schools are critically underfunded so 10% of not enough is still a lot of leverage but it's still fair to say that public schools are locally funded. //

From what I'm hearing and seeing is that it is going to cost a lot more money to implement anti Covid strategies. And the governors are saying that the states are not only broke right now, but operating at severe deficits in some states. SO they are asking the federal govt, to finance this, since they are federal guidelines after all that have to be met. SO I would imagine that the normal 10% they provide is going to be a lot more in the coming semesters. The difference between being able to open safely(when case load permits) or not.

Likely the underfunded ones are the ones with the kids least equipped to do virtual learning. That is one of my beefs with virtual learning. Works okay with those that have the resources. I often wonder if it is better just to cancel school altogether vs exacerbate differences in outcomes. If at all possible I'd like to see kids go back to school. Not a great situation, obviously not helped by Trump. Sigh.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

I'm with you and I agree completely. 40% of the kids in my kids classes have not logged on to the school's attempted distance learning programs since this started. These are ESL kids without home internet, they're not riding in out in St. Barts. If reopening schools was a priority the Federal Government should put 80% of the debate about bailing out states on the shelf and bail out school systems specifically. You'd have to avoid gamesmanship by local authorities but it could be done. Basically:

"when you, appropriate local government (we're Republicans after all), determine that it's safe to reopen schools you will have the funds to take the measures you deem necessary to do that safely, capped at the difference between your budget last year + X% and your budget this year accounting for the impact of COIVD."

As always, this administration wants all of the positive outcomes without doing any of the work.

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"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

I was talking to my boss about this one day for the Denver area. They do give distance learning stuff I think they got everyone a computer or something. But what if you don’t have internet, or a place to even sit and work because you live in an apartment with no room. It would seem crazy for the vast majority of us to not have internet, but I’m sure there is a large percentage of people in low income Homes that don’t.

The distance learning is so variable for students. For a motivated focussed kid over the age of 7 it can work, but een our 7 year old just disengaged from it.

The 6 year old just hated it and wouldn't do it.

We bought a tutor 3 days a week. Online is an issue. That was us with two parents working, internet 4 computers. Can't imagine that it works too well in other house holds.

Agree that they should fund the delta required to make physical socially distant school work. If that means running school at 50 % capacity in two shifts, then get more teachers.

Don't want Windy to fall behind in his High School Learning, so get this done In Illinois first

And without owning the risk if the action results in failure. If schools open as the President demands, and then COVID cases increase, or kids get sick, or whatever, it will be the fault of the mayor, or governor, or teachers, or school boards, or Democrats, anyone other than the people who demanded the schools open.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

with how things are playing out due to states reopening so quickly, I'm finding it very difficult to imagine how cases wouldn't increase and kids wouldn't get sick. How would a school setting have different outcomes from a bar, church, choir, restaurant, etc? If anything, I'd argue it is worse.

Masks

i like your positive thinking

Basically if I'm wearing a mask my chance of catching it drops to 50% if we both are something like 90%. Throw in desks 3 to 6 feet away and I think it in theory should be fine. Kids want to be assholes and not wear masks detention then expulsion. Kid has dildo parents that don't believe in masks, homeschooling it is. This is not hard and discipline can enforce it.

For older students I agree. The problem is younger kids. My wife teaches 7th grade and half the kids can't walk and chew gum at the same time. Expecting students to be as vigilant with their masks and proper protocol while also trying to stay focused on work is going to be a herculean task. I don't see it working. To say nothing of students with special needs.

And currently their solution is HS students transition to complete distance learning while middle school and elementary schools spread out through the larger buildings. So the ones who can (should) be trusted more are the ones who will be home.

Basically if I'm wearing a mask my chance of catching it drops to 50% if we both are something like 90%. Throw in desks 3 to 6 feet away and I think it in theory should be fine.
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From the things I've read, the function of a mask is to slow the spread, not stop it. So if you have a group of people confined to a small space for several hours a day for mnny days in a row, and one of them is a spreader, your chances of catching the covid is going to be quite high, mask or not.


Kids want to be assholes and not wear masks detention then expulsion.
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This is nice to think about. It clearly won't happen in a school setting at any level. A school's ability to discipline students has been declining for years as legislation and policy continue to erode the power of the teachers and administrators. But still nice to think about nonetheless.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

First background, Mom was a Teacher ( grades 4-6 mostly) inlaws both teachers, 2 nieces who are teachers, daughter just grad with teaching degree. I have seen the transition of public schools. But I never give up hope.

I will leave special needs out of this cause well there special. But to your bold statement above. What would you wife do if a kid walked into class without pants on? or even without a shirt on? I believe / hope schools have not gotten so week that even that low expectation would be met with indifference. I would expect the student would be sent to the office to get the proper clothing on. I would expect no less of a mask. Detention or what ever form of punishment the school uses, would / should be triggered quickly for non-compliance to the mask policy. First offense trip the office, and a call home. 2nd office detention for a week, 3rd office 1 week expulsion. This should not be some wishy washy policy, it should be treated like it is a serious heath issue. If a kid starts pissing on everyone in the class, I am sure it would be dealt with swiftly and so should this. Kids love to push the envelope. On this teachers / staff / parents have to agree and the slight sign of pushing the edge, needs to be shutdown immediately. Those who's parents don't support the mask policy, well they will be the lucky ones to have to home school the kid.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Poor reading skills - 500,000 points ( i would bold NEW but it already was and you still missed it)

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

I call BS on this, at least how Michigan schools work. Because of the Union's you don't full credit for year of service if you transfer districts. (most give you up to 6yrs). What happens is teachers don't move. A co-workers wife was a teacher in a shitty district that had moderate pay. If she took a job in a better district with better pay, she would have taken a pay cut cause she would have lost many years of seniority. Its one of the hidden handcuff's the unions provide that actually helps the shitty schools and hurts teachers. If this ever gets changed, look out as you will then have mostly the good teachers at the better districts. But today that is not the case.

But yes, those who will retire are mostly going to be your older workers, who have more experience. But the new fresh out, will also be more flexible with technology and might do a better job with the online portions.

And Michigan has attempted to stop what you describe about wealthy districts and provide even funding for all. What has been discovered, big shocker, the money is one aspect, but parent involvement both directly and indirectly (supporting clubs / fund raisers etc) is probably the bigger factor in the "wealthier" schools doing better, than the money.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

In an ideal world, yes. I remember 7th grade, and I cant fathom how/why kids act the way she and her coworkers tells me they do.

She had a kid who didnt want to be there. Didnt care about school, just wanted to disrupt everything. Would walk around during tests or class assignments and annoy other kids. You can only send a kid to the office so many times. You cant yell at them, and “punishments” dont work. The districts have some really fucked up protections for kids with respect to punishments. It just doesnt happen much anymore. I used to fear what my parents would do to me if I got in trouble. If the parents dont care, the kids wont.

One problem is that we have a large population of adults who wont even wear a mask bc of “their rights.” A store has a policy “No Shoes, No Shirt, No Service” and its not an issue. No rights violated. But a mask is too much to ask. So yea, I really do think its going to be difficult to get kids to keep masks on when she cant even trust some classes to get their pencils out or bring their books to class. Even with repeated asking and hand holding.

Her accelerated classes are great. Inclusion classes, a lot to be desired. She has kids that walk around with piss stains and erections and are completely oblivious. She teaches 7th grade and has had more than a handful of students who still read at a 3rd grade level.

A lot of these issues are with the system and district. But the argument isnt about that now, its about can we realistically expect younger kids to wear masks and practice common sense when they cant even keep track of a pencil. It will vary district to district, but man they are not alone.

after a year of working in the education system i went back to school to get my teaching certificate. it was a complete waste of time. i'd put it on par with police academy education. everything they taught was as if the classroom and school settings were a vacuum. So much that should work in theory but wasn't applicable to the real world. Teaching isn't the hardest job in the world, but it's one I feel is most difficult to give advice on if you haven't done it. It's why, hands down, Trump's worst appointment has been DeVos.

In PA the pension is through the state and teachers can move to any district under the same contract without losing seniority in the union. Now, they will be giving up seniority to whatever school they move to but their years of service does not go away.

A perfect example would be my wife. As she has moved from one school to another she did not lose her years of service in regards to how her pension was affected but she did lose seniority within a specific district.

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TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.

Here's a little tale of what's to come. 3 teachers teaching summer school, using all precautions (masks, distancing, etc). All 3 get COVID and one of them dies.

https://www.usatoday.com/...teachers/5411122002/

Virtually teaching aka online....bit misleading OP, no?

That's a one-data point strong argument for not having three middle aged people spend all day in the same indoor space in Arizona. It's tragic, but it's not very useful beyond that.

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"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

One of many to come.

Here are a few more data points, for the outdoors and kids:




https://people.com/...V3PVKry0yVGihABs4FfM

That's a one-data point strong argument for not having three middle aged people spend all day in the same indoor space in Arizona. It's tragic, but it's not very useful beyond that
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How many data points is gonna take to be useful?

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

We have opted for "virtual classes" for our 1st grade grandson. We do not feel comfortable with the "in class" option.

Here is the tentative daily schedule:
8:30 Check in & attendance taken (mandatory)
8:45 to 9:45 Reading instruction
9:55 to 10:10 Phonics instruction
10:10 to 10:50 Writing instruction
11:00 to 11:30 Science instruction
12:30 to 1:30 Math instruction
1:30 to 2:00 Arts
2:00 to 3:30 Teacher office hours

Clearly this is better thought out than the spring suspension of classes and the chaos that ensued.

My point is that the tens of thousands of individual decisions which collectively make up "when US schools should go back" should each be made on the basis of individualized local data, not an accumulation of anecdotes. 3 teachers getting sick in one very specific scenario in Arizona has very little bearing on what I think should happen anywhere in NYC where I live and my kids go to school. Just as whatever is or isn't happening in various European countries that have to a large extent controlled the virus should have no impact on policy in Arizona or Florida or Texas.

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"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

Really? I'd think that case studies where students and teachers followed a protocol and the outcomes of that protocol would be very useful data points in driving policy in other locations. They tried stuff and it didn't work. Perhaps we should do something different- kind of useful. I find it very helpful to analyze what is working and what isn't when trying to decide what to do when moving forward. I suppose you don't though.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Really.

Anyone who isn't aware that, at a minimum, adults interacting indoors for extended periods are at some level of risk is living under a rock.

For any particular decision maker somewhere in this country trying to assess their particular level of risk and thereby decide when and how to reopen, what happened to these women is one click above meaningless. It's implied but we don't even know that their interaction was what caused all 3 to become infected!

I am NOT minimizing the risks, to anyone. I'm only advocating for assessing them scientifically and locally. It doesn't make any sense to talk about whether "we should do something different" and of us "moving forward." There are 50 state governments obviously, 40 thousand local governments, 13,500 school districts. Wildly disparate COVID rates, school infrastructure, population densities. There is no "we" / "us". Your binary options are (a) no reopening at all until there's a vaccine and (b) open cautiously when scientifically locally appropriate. If you're in camp (b), anecdotes are meaningless.

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"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

I am NOT minimizing the risks, to anyone. I'm only advocating for assessing them scientifically and locally.//

So like most the rest of us, you are probably not happy with Trump and the WH telling us that all the schools and kids need to go back in August. And making light of their own CDC recommendations, to the point that they are actually telling schools to just ignore the ones you cannot afford, or are practical for your situation. Of course no real talk of the absolute worst week of the virus since it hit our shores, or the fact that it will get a lot worse before we can even dream about a real flattening...

Correct, I am not happy at all. It's ludicrous, maddening, impossibly dangerous and wrong on science and the law. But your statement that this has been the absolute worst week for the virus since it hit our shores shows how unhelpful thinking of the US as one community with one decision to make is. A couple of months ago my city was losing 1,000 people a day to this. We're down to a handful now and the entire country is currently averaging what 700? Again, I don't want to be misinterpreted, the national picture is very scary and may get more so. Having been through the worst of it (or at least round 1 of it), I sincerely hope other areas of the US are spared our experience. But you wouldn't expect Italy to keep schools closed because Scotland's situation was disastrous. So no, I don't want DeBlasio factoring in scary stories from Arizona when the time comes to finalize a decision for NYC kids. I don't really want DeBlasio making that decision at all but that's a separate story.

This oped is in line with how I'm feeling about NYC right now:

https://nyti.ms/3gRy8Kp

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"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

The issue here is that kids are not immune to this virus. They have been a small factor in all of this to this point because they haven't been crammed into small spaces all day together. You said the Arizona example is invalid because you put adults in the room together. If schools reopen, children will become the largest vector of the disease. The first two months of school are cesspools of yuckiness anyway. You add COVID to the mix... If school rooms were well ventilated, distance maximized, and any kid feeling ill stayed home, it could be okay-ish. But none of the rooms I have ever taught in had great ventilation. Not allowed to open windows or outside doors because of security issues. 20 kids in the rooms I have taught in won't be 6 feet square apart by any stretch. Shoot- the SAT and ACT boards want kids 4-ish feet apart to comply with their standards. I can get MAYBE 15 in the biggest room I ever taught in with those standards. Then wearing masks and staying home when ill. Right.

Would be wonderful if enforcement was up to par, but threats of law suits have kids that have multiple instances of possessing weapons on campus staying enrolled. Can't wait to see what they do with kids without masks!

I would love to be teaching and coaching again all year. It's a large part of the fabric of who I am. But making my kids and coworkers into human guinea pigs? Not cool.

I didn't say the Arizona case was invalid. There's a tragic story there for sure. But we don't even know what the story is. Even if the story turns out to be that the women caught the virus from each other which, again, was not established, all that means is that putting three middle aged women in a room together for hours a day will result in all three of them getting the virus if one of them has it somewhere between 0.0000000001% of the time and 100% of the time. In Arizona. In that particular room. In that particular school. It's just not data. Much less data that should inform decision making in NYC or Oregon or Lubbock.

I can't really get beyond that because when you say things like "If schools reopen, children will become the largest vector of the disease." that's pure supposition on your part, and contrary to the weight of evidence that countries that have reopened schools have accumulated. A huge portion of NYC school kids are in day camps right now - mine included. They look a lot like school. Many of them are hosted in schools. We'll see.

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"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

Supposition? Sure. But the countries who have reopened school have far better numbers than the US as a whole. Looking at the states that decided to reopen fully- the evidence is the spread is coming from being enclosed indoors for an extended period of time. You're willing to risk finding out if your kids are vulnerable? This thing is so new that there isn't a ton of evidence out there yet, but using classrooms and public spaces as petri dishes doesn't seem ethical to me.

Right now NY state has more in common with Italy than it does Arizona. So while I'll never be comfortable using my kids as Guinea pigs my assessment of my and their risks will not give undue weight to the current conditions in communities that are thousands of miles from us just because they also happen to be part of the US. I'm surprised this is controversial.

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"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

I disagree, you send them to the office, each and every time and let the school administrator deal with it, and the parents. If their solution is to send the kid back, then when they take the mask off again, off to the office. What would the teacher do, if the kid kept taking his clothes off.

I guess that just it, a mask is part of your clothing now. No pants / no shirt / no mask -- no difference pretty sure a school would do something if a kid refused to wear clothing. YES IT IS THAT SIMPLE.



Again, I don't care if the family walks around naked at home, at school you wear clothes, a mask is part of that clothing. No mask same as no clothes, how the school handles kids with no clothes? Should be the same.


I don't care if they have a piss stained mask as long as they have one.

I think all schools should handle no mask's just like no pants / no shirt / etc.... So sure if the district lets kids walk around naked well your screwed. Assuming they would act if a kid showed up with no clothes, the response to no mask should be the same. Period.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Here's a FACT for you. People in close proximity, especially indoors, will spread the virus to each other.

That is exactly the scenario that schools are in all day, every day, no matter how much you try to "distance" them and force them (good luck with that) to be 100% compliant with precautions. I know it isn't going to work. I've worked in k-12 education for over 2 decades. I see the reality of how kids behave, how faculty just becomes exhausted and complacent, and every. single. year. respiratory illnesses rip through the buildings by Sept-Oct. The reality is that this overconfidence is going to bite a lot of people hard this fall.

25% of school employees are in the "high risk" category. Over 50, heart disease, obese, diabetes, etc. What will happen then they start dropping like flies and you cannot find enough subs? (again, good luck with that!) I've seen schools have to close because of this with influenza let alone something that is 2-3 times more contagious and many times more virulent and damaging to health as COVID is.

To think that suddenly this is going to be OK, while cases rage all around us, and not affect people in school buildings on a large scale is just ignorant, and completely irresponsible optimism.

Right so pay and vacation are done based on years in THAT DISTRICT. so a teacher with 15yrs experience is going to take a paycut and lose time off, by switching to another district (at least here in michigan, most give at most 6yrs credit) So you will fall from one of the highest pay levels to a somewhat near the bottom pay level. Plus job's are offered based on seniority so with only 6 yrs in the new district you closer to being laid off, or getting the unfavorable assignments.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

LOL did you read the details. They were teaching a Virtual class. But the three teachers decided to run it from the classroom, and all three were their. The teacher that died is the one who brought it into the class, after getting it and then not having it recognized as covid.

So this had nothing to do with a teacher in a classroom, and kids spreading it.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

They were teaching a Virtual class.//

Not entirely virtual, they did interact with kids out in the field. And I'm quite familiar with this dynamic, we have had several visits from our kids teachers at our place. We meet them at the end of the driveway, we get out of the car with masks, while they stay in their car. We did have one outdoor session for graduation with one extra kid, and it got out of hand, and I had to step in because the teacher and other kid just began to act like nothing was going on. So there is no way my kids are going to be canary's in this coal mine, because it will actually end up being me and my wife who will probably find out when it fails at school.


I posted it up somewhere, but there is also the Christian kids camp that popped 82 folks. I presume that was mostly outdoors too, but no doubt a lot of singing and other huffing and puffing going on with the sports..

3 people in a classroom taking precautions. How do you think it will go when it's 15-20 people in a classroom. Most of them with 2 adults in each.

But kids are 100% immune, it's only the adults that catch and spread it! /s

The biggest public gatherings every single day in the US are SCHOOL SESSIONS, but they will be immune to the spread, lol

I Acknowledged a few posts above that saying noone should reopen schools in any way anywhere until there's a vaccine is a valid and intellectually consistent position. I don't agree with it but if that's where you're at then, fine let's just leave it at that.

If you are prepared to acknowledge that there could be some set of criteria which would allow a specific school in a specific community to reopen in a specific way, then we're not really disagreeing at all. The only question is what those criteria are.

I see a lot of teachers getting behind a hashtag saying they won't go back until there have been no new cases for 14 days in their County. A deliberately very high bar. How do you feel about that?

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"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

I think we agree on what should happen to these types of students.

Im not arguing we should let it happen. Im telling you the reality is that in some areas and at some ages keeping masks on kids and keeping them away from one another is almost impossible simply due to the cognitive abilities of these children, to say nothing of the selfishness some of them exude.


What should happen and what is possible doesnt always align perfectly in reality.

Sounds reasonable. That's basically the criteria that they used to close schools when this first blew up. But I do think "county" is too ambiguous as school districts aren't always drawn on county lines and some counties are gigantic. I would define it more like in the "immediate community", or something of the sort. But that depends on the health departments releasing real data. They have HIPPA so shoved up their asses, they won't give any details except "this many cases today in this zip code" which is the zip code where they have testing stations.

Pool testing could make a huge difference in opening schools, but have you ever seen a nurse try to give a child a swab test for strep? It just ain't happening on a large scale with children.

In related news:

Federal materials for reopening schools, shared the week President Trump demanded weaker guidelines to do so, said fully reopening schools and universities remained the “highest risk” for the spread of the coronavirus.