Re: What if 20% of teachers don’t come back? [slowguy] [ In reply to ]

Jul 12, 20 12:11

Post #226 of 273 (522 views)

slowguy wrote:

Quote:

Parents are outsiders with little say in the running of the school. Every few years they get to elect the school board, in between elections they have little say.

My mother teaches in public high school, and that doesn’t sound accurate to me at all, based on her experience. Like it or not, whether it’s right or not, parents meddle in how the schools are run to a huge degree. Getting kids to turn cell phones off or put them on vibrate or just leave them in their bags has proven to be nearly impossible because of parental intervention. I can’t even tell you the number of stories she’s told me about parents intervening in school attempts to discipline students or control student behavior.

This^^^ Same in y wife’s school. Her experience is the parents constantly meddle and the administration consistently backs down.

_____
TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.

Re: What if 20% of teachers don’t come back? [DavHamm] [ In reply to ]

Jul 12, 20 12:26

Post #227 of 273 (509 views)

Quote:

And I will keep asking the question..
In these bad schools, what happens when Pat takes off their shirt in the middle of class?

While they have shortcomings in how administration deals with parents, they aren't necessarily "bad schools." That said, your clothes analogy simply doesn't fly, and you should stop using it. Nobody anywhere views masks the same as wearing basic clothing.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Re: What if 20% of teachers don’t come back? [slowguy] [ In reply to ]

Jul 12, 20 12:37

Post #228 of 273 (501 views)

slowguy wrote:

Quote:

And I will keep asking the question..
In these bad schools, what happens when Pat takes off their shirt in the middle of class?

While they have shortcomings in how administration deals with parents, they aren't necessarily "bad schools." That said, your clothes analogy simply doesn't fly, and you should stop using it. Nobody anywhere views masks the same as wearing basic clothing.

Vaccines instead?

Re: What if 20% of teachers don’t come back? [slowguy] [ In reply to ]

Jul 12, 20 17:04

Post #229 of 273 (468 views)

slowguy wrote:

Quote:

And I will keep asking the question..
In these bad schools, what happens when Pat takes off their shirt in the middle of class?

While they have shortcomings in how administration deals with parents, they aren't necessarily "bad schools." That said, your clothes analogy simply doesn't fly, and you should stop using it. Nobody anywhere views masks the same as wearing basic clothing.

THEY SHOULD

Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Re: What if 20% of teachers don’t come back? [DavHamm] [ In reply to ]

Jul 12, 20 17:04

Post #230 of 273 (467 views)

DavHamm wrote:

slowguy wrote:

Quote:

And I will keep asking the question..
In these bad schools, what happens when Pat takes off their shirt in the middle of class?

While they have shortcomings in how administration deals with parents, they aren't necessarily "bad schools." That said, your clothes analogy simply doesn't fly, and you should stop using it. Nobody anywhere views masks the same as wearing basic clothing.

THEY SHOULD

Well great. Meanwhile, most of us live in the real world.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Re: What if 20% of teachers don’t come back? [slowguy] [ In reply to ]

Jul 12, 20 17:13

Post #231 of 273 (461 views)

slowguy wrote:

DavHamm wrote:

slowguy wrote:

Quote:

And I will keep asking the question..
In these bad schools, what happens when Pat takes off their shirt in the middle of class?

While they have shortcomings in how administration deals with parents, they aren't necessarily "bad schools." That said, your clothes analogy simply doesn't fly, and you should stop using it. Nobody anywhere views masks the same as wearing basic clothing.

THEY SHOULD

Well great. Meanwhile, most of us live in the real world.

Why do most people not equate them. The mask has bigger health impacts than pants or a shirt.

No shirt / no shoes / no MASK / no service. .. should be viewed the same..

You want to come in here, you wear pants and it doesn't infringe on your constitutional rights, why do you think wearing a mask does?

See how simple life becomes if people do start equating them the same.. It really is easy.

Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Re: What if 20% of teachers don’t come back? [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]

Jul 12, 20 17:18

Post #232 of 273 (458 views)

TheRef65 wrote:

slowguy wrote:

Quote:

Parents are outsiders with little say in the running of the school. Every few years they get to elect the school board, in between elections they have little say.

My mother teaches in public high school, and that doesn’t sound accurate to me at all, based on her experience. Like it or not, whether it’s right or not, parents meddle in how the schools are run to a huge degree. Getting kids to turn cell phones off or put them on vibrate or just leave them in their bags has proven to be nearly impossible because of parental intervention. I can’t even tell you the number of stories she’s told me about parents intervening in school attempts to discipline students or control student behavior.

This^^^ Same in y wife’s school. Her experience is the parents constantly meddle and the administration consistently backs down.

Yes this thread has reminded me, why I bought a house in the city that I did. Nationally recognized school district. Teachers enforce the policies, Administration supports the the polices, School Board sets the policies. Not happy at the teacher's actions they point you to the policy and the administrations office, The administration supports the policy and points you to school board if you want it changed. Oh and we have few if any silly policies, so the Administration is not stuck suspending a kid, cause his mom put a plastic knife in his lunch box.

But I'll give up my quest.

Yes Schools are fucked, kids running around tossing desk and not wearing masks, wont work. And with the numbers exploding schools will be online in the fall. Of course if you can't get a kid to wear a mask, how do you get them to do any work virtually?

Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Re: What if 20% of teachers don’t come back? [DavHamm] [ In reply to ]

Jul 12, 20 17:26

Post #233 of 273 (455 views)

No shirt / no shoes / no MASK / no service. .. should be viewed the same..

---
If I'm sitting in my classroom alone, say before school or during my prep, I can take my mask off and sit at my desk peacefully while doing work. A colleague stops in the room and is a full 25 feet away from me. Will I/ Should I get fired for not having my mask on? Not even remotely close. Will I get fired for not having any pants on? Most likely.

I go to a restaurant and order food. I can take off my mask to eat. Not so much my pants.

Masks will not be treated like pants no matter how much you want it.

Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Re: What if 20% of teachers don’t come back? [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]

Jul 12, 20 17:47

Post #234 of 273 (442 views)

Tri-Banter wrote:

No shirt / no shoes / no MASK / no service. .. should be viewed the same..

---
If I'm sitting in my classroom alone, say before school or during my prep, I can take my mask off and sit at my desk peacefully while doing work. A colleague stops in the room and is a full 25 feet away from me. Will I/ Should I get fired for not having my mask on? Not even remotely close. Will I get fired for not having any pants on? Most likely.

I go to a restaurant and order food. I can take off my mask to eat. Not so much my pants.

Masks will not be treated like pants no matter how much you want it.

You should be fired

Re: What if 20% of teachers don’t come back? [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]

Jul 12, 20 17:49

Post #235 of 273 (438 views)

Tri-Banter wrote:

i've worked for a principal who capitulated to everything and worked for another who basically told parents in IEP meetings to go F themselves.
---
What good would that do? CSE meetings are run by the CSE Chairperson, which is a district level admin position. A building level admin principal has no authority past an advisory position and is on equal grounds with the parents. It wouldn't serve any function to get pissy with parents during such a meeting.

In my N=1 experience it really depends on the administration. I would agree they have "little" say, but they can certainly influence decisions.
---
You need more experiences then. Parents play a huge role in the decisions of the school. The most successful schools are those that understand the role and power of the parents and use it to their advantage. A strong PTA can do wonders for the school environment and a lack of parent involvement is highly linked to struggling schools. A bunch of schools have a Shared Decision Committee, whose responsibility is to review and set school policies and practices. Parents are vital in the functioning of a good school.

I worked in a very high socio-economic area. The kind that brings lawyers to IEP meetings. The instances I'm referencing is when we were following IEP's to the letter and unreasonable parents were doing and saying unreasonable things. Not arguing it was right, just stating the facts.

I am a decade removed from my almost decade work in education and do not have kids of my own so there will be no more experiences for me. I will say what you outlined, as good as it sounds, is not remotely close to what actually happened. Again, not arguing it would not be for the best. Just stating that was not my experience.

Re: What if 20% of teachers don’t come back? [DavHamm] [ In reply to ]

Jul 12, 20 17:52

Post #236 of 273 (431 views)

DavHamm wrote:

Tri-Banter wrote:

if a kid took his pants off in class, it would not be tolerated, taking their mask off should be viewed as a more severe thing then dropping their pants
---
We can't get the common folk to wear masks in public. What makes you think we can get them to view wearing a mask as being on par with wearing pants? Parents are stakeholders in the decision making process. It's highly unlikely that they'll let that level of severity for a mask violation fly. And at least 30% (rough estimate based on observation) who do wear masks don't wear them properly. Are you going to suspend for that too?

Short answer. YES

Parents are outsiders with little say in the running of the school. Every few years they get to elect the school board, in between elections they have little say.

Yes If 50% of the kids are pissing on others, not wearing clothes. or any other thing that is a health concern, I would suspend them all. Yup they will all be calling the superintendent and yelling at the next school board meeting, and hope in both cases they are forced to wear a mask or asked to leave, and then told, its really simple. We expect your kid to wear the appropriate Pants, shirt, and mask when in school. If they don't they get sent home.

I say this with respect, and no snark at all. I agree thats how things SHOULD work, but I fear you are out of touch with how things actually operate in many public schools or areas.

I would love it to work as you have said. We are in agreement. My wife and I have had the conversation that I would not make it as a public school teacher because of that. At least not in an entitled or underserved district.

Re: What if 20% of teachers don’t come back? [DavHamm] [ In reply to ]

Jul 12, 20 17:54

Post #237 of 273 (428 views)

DavHamm wrote:

TimeIsUp wrote:

windywave wrote:

TimeIsUp wrote:

windywave wrote:

Tri-Banter wrote:

Kid wears mask or kid stays at home.
---
I take it you guys have never been on the giving end of enforcing school dress code policies.

Receiving end. There were no issues

like i said, everything is so easy in the Dyson world that Windy lives in

not saying it can't be done. It can be. It just won't be nearly as clean as you make it out to be.

Well better than the anarchy where students run the world and the adults are powerless to do anything

lol. so it's all students will wear or students will run the world and adults are powerless. not leaving much gray area there are we.

Your the one saying there is no control, and they are powerless to get the students to wear a mask. If you can't get them to follow basic health guidelines, why would we think you can control them in any other format. How you keep them in the seats? how do teach them anything? If you can't get them to keep a mask on, and possibly save the life of a teacher, how is anyone getting them to answer questions on tests?

It's funny there are so many things that kids will do in school, yet you seem to be saying the schools have no hope at enforcing a basic public health issue.

I really don't get it.

I guess I am basically saying. In the fall job 1 should be kids in masks, then move to attempting to educate. But nothing should happen till 100% compliance with the wearing of masks.

I seem to be saying the schools have no hope at enforcing? I don't think you are replying to the right person. I never said anything close to that. In fact, I literally said "it can be done." I think you don't get it because you aren't reading very carefully.

Re: What if 20% of teachers don’t come back? [DavHamm] [ In reply to ]

Jul 12, 20 17:59

Post #238 of 273 (422 views)

DavHamm wrote:

slowguy wrote:

DavHamm wrote:

slowguy wrote:

Quote:

And I will keep asking the question..
In these bad schools, what happens when Pat takes off their shirt in the middle of class?

While they have shortcomings in how administration deals with parents, they aren't necessarily "bad schools." That said, your clothes analogy simply doesn't fly, and you should stop using it. Nobody anywhere views masks the same as wearing basic clothing.

THEY SHOULD

Well great. Meanwhile, most of us live in the real world.

Why do most people not equate them. The mask has bigger health impacts than pants or a shirt.

No shirt / no shoes / no MASK / no service. .. should be viewed the same..

You want to come in here, you wear pants and it doesn't infringe on your constitutional rights, why do you think wearing a mask does?

See how simple life becomes if people do start equating them the same.. It really is easy.

Are you under the impression that people wear pants when they leave the house for public health reasons?

People wear clothes due to personal modesty standards and norms. The norm is for people to typically cover their torso and legs, at least to the knees, in most normal public situations. It is not the norm for people to cover their faces. The face mask is a new thing due to a specific health concern. There's is no realistic reason to expect people would view a mask the same way they would view the pants and shirts they've been used to for centuries.

People don't see them the same because THEY'RE NOT THE SAME. Once this pandemic is over, we'll go back to not wearing masks. We're not going to ditch pants.

I'm not suggesting people shouldn't wear their masks, or even that businesses or schools can't institute a mask required policy. But if you think you're going to get any significant portion of the public to think of masks the same way they think of basic clothing, you're living in a fantasy world.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Last edited by: slowguy: Jul 12, 20 18:03

Re: What if 20% of teachers don’t come back? [slowguy] [ In reply to ]

Jul 12, 20 18:01

Post #239 of 273 (418 views)

slowguy wrote:

DavHamm wrote:

slowguy wrote:

DavHamm wrote:

slowguy wrote:

Quote:

And I will keep asking the question..
In these bad schools, what happens when Pat takes off their shirt in the middle of class?

While they have shortcomings in how administration deals with parents, they aren't necessarily "bad schools." That said, your clothes analogy simply doesn't fly, and you should stop using it. Nobody anywhere views masks the same as wearing basic clothing.

THEY SHOULD

Well great. Meanwhile, most of us live in the real world.

Why do most people not equate them. The mask has bigger health impacts than pants or a shirt.

No shirt / no shoes / no MASK / no service. .. should be viewed the same..

You want to come in here, you wear pants and it doesn't infringe on your constitutional rights, why do you think wearing a mask does?

See how simple life becomes if people do start equating them the same.. It really is easy.

We're not going to ditch pants.

Speak for yourself

Re: What if 20% of teachers don’t come back? [DavHamm] [ In reply to ]

Jul 12, 20 18:08

Post #240 of 273 (416 views)

DavHamm wrote:

Tri-Banter wrote:

if a kid took his pants off in class, it would not be tolerated, taking their mask off should be viewed as a more severe thing then dropping their pants
---
We can't get the common folk to wear masks in public. What makes you think we can get them to view wearing a mask as being on par with wearing pants? Parents are stakeholders in the decision making process. It's highly unlikely that they'll let that level of severity for a mask violation fly. And at least 30% (rough estimate based on observation) who do wear masks don't wear them properly. Are you going to suspend for that too?

Short answer. YES

Parents are outsiders with little say in the running of the school. Every few years they get to elect the school board, in between elections they have little say.

Yes If 50% of the kids are pissing on others, not wearing clothes. or any other thing that is a health concern, I would suspend them all. Yup they will all be calling the superintendent and yelling at the next school board meeting, and hope in both cases they are forced to wear a mask or asked to leave, and then told, its really simple. We expect your kid to wear the appropriate Pants, shirt, and mask when in school. If they don't they get sent home.

Often, the board members are just as dumb:

The Bushnell-Prairie City Board of Education was so divided over the state-mandated mask wearing policy that they could not even agree to a return to learning plan during Wednesday’s school board meeting.

Board secretary Mark Ferguson and board members Shawna Yocum and John Oakman voiced their opposition to students and staff being required to wear masks. Ferguson said that his opposition was based on disclaimers listed on disposable mask boxes which indicated they did not protect against the coronavirus, which appeared to conflict with publicly available scientific data about the coronavirus.

Oakman, citing multiple lawsuits against the governor and both IDPH and ISBE, said he believed that it was unconstitutional for the governor to create state mandates based on guidelines from both the Illinois Department of Public Health and the Illinois State Board of Education. Yocum said that she opposed the mandate because she felt mandating masks would impact the mental health of Illinois students to the point those students would turn to drugs to cope or even die by suicide.

Re: What if 20% of teachers don’t come back? [RZ] [ In reply to ]

Jul 12, 20 18:16

Post #241 of 273 (422 views)

RZ wrote:

DavHamm wrote:

Tri-Banter wrote:

if a kid took his pants off in class, it would not be tolerated, taking their mask off should be viewed as a more severe thing then dropping their pants
---
We can't get the common folk to wear masks in public. What makes you think we can get them to view wearing a mask as being on par with wearing pants? Parents are stakeholders in the decision making process. It's highly unlikely that they'll let that level of severity for a mask violation fly. And at least 30% (rough estimate based on observation) who do wear masks don't wear them properly. Are you going to suspend for that too?

Short answer. YES

Parents are outsiders with little say in the running of the school. Every few years they get to elect the school board, in between elections they have little say.

Yes If 50% of the kids are pissing on others, not wearing clothes. or any other thing that is a health concern, I would suspend them all. Yup they will all be calling the superintendent and yelling at the next school board meeting, and hope in both cases they are forced to wear a mask or asked to leave, and then told, its really simple. We expect your kid to wear the appropriate Pants, shirt, and mask when in school. If they don't they get sent home.

Often, the board members are just as dumb:

The Bushnell-Prairie City Board of Education was so divided over the state-mandated mask wearing policy that they could not even agree to a return to learning plan during Wednesday’s school board meeting.

Board secretary Mark Ferguson and board members Shawna Yocum and John Oakman voiced their opposition to students and staff being required to wear masks. Ferguson said that his opposition was based on disclaimers listed on disposable mask boxes which indicated they did not protect against the coronavirus, which appeared to conflict with publicly available scientific data about the coronavirus.

Oakman, citing multiple lawsuits against the governor and both IDPH and ISBE, said he believed that it was unconstitutional for the governor to create state mandates based on guidelines from both the Illinois Department of Public Health and the Illinois State Board of Education. Yocum said that she opposed the mandate because she felt mandating masks would impact the mental health of Illinois students to the point those students would turn to drugs to cope or even die by suicide.

That's a town of 3000 literally in the middle of nowhere

Re: What if 20% of teachers don’t come back? [DavHamm] [ In reply to ]

Jul 13, 20 12:26

Post #242 of 273 (379 views)

San Diego Unified and Los Angeles Unified (California’s two largest districts) announced this morning that they’ll be online only this fall.

https://www.kusi.com/...ntil-further-notice/

Last edited by: Crank: Jul 13, 20 12:37

Re: What if 20% of teachers don’t come back? [TimeIsUp] [ In reply to ]

Jul 13, 20 12:40

Post #243 of 273 (367 views)

DavHamm wrote:

I guess I am basically saying. In the fall job 1 should be kids in masks, then move to attempting to educate. But nothing should happen till 100% compliance with the wearing of masks.

And this is why I’m considering private school.

Why should a ton of children sit around missing out on school because a few kids can’t wear a mask? Throw them in the gym and let the other kids move on. Or send them home for a year and they can re-start next year in the same grade.

Re: What if 20% of teachers don’t come back? [Crank] [ In reply to ]

Jul 13, 20 12:51

Post #244 of 273 (356 views)

In our district they said 2 days a week to start but they ran some numbers and think they have the space to go to full attendance at the elementary school. I think the idea is that if they aren't moving the kids around or eating in the cafeteria then they can use that and the art room and such as temporary class rooms.

In the mean time, there are is a large Facebook discussion going on as each family has to decide between 2 days or all virtual in the neighboring district. Some parent ran the numbers and estimates that 300 out of 150,000 kids will die. Problem is that he isn't so good at the maths or interpreting data. The proper number based on the study he cited would be 3 out of 150,000 kids, but that assumes that they just keep the schools going as everyone gets infected. And the study itself is based on really poor datasets for kids.

Re: What if 20% of teachers don’t come back? [Crank] [ In reply to ]

Jul 13, 20 12:52

Post #245 of 273 (354 views)

Crank wrote:

San Diego Unified and Los Angeles Unified (California’s two largest districts) announced this morning that they’ll be online only this fall.

https://www.kusi.com/...ntil-further-notice/

Boon for Catholic schools

Re: What if 20% of teachers don’t come back? [Moonrocket] [ In reply to ]

Jul 13, 20 12:52

Post #246 of 273 (352 views)

Moonrocket wrote:

DavHamm wrote:

I guess I am basically saying. In the fall job 1 should be kids in masks, then move to attempting to educate. But nothing should happen till 100% compliance with the wearing of masks.

And this is why I’m considering private school.

Why should a ton of children sit around missing out on school because a few kids can’t wear a mask? Throw them in the gym and let the other kids move on. Or send them home for a year and they can re-start next year in the same grade.

Sing it sister Moonrocket

Re: What if 20% of teachers don’t come back? [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]

Jul 13, 20 13:00

Post #247 of 273 (344 views)

Tri-Banter wrote:

No shirt / no shoes / no MASK / no service. .. should be viewed the same..

---
If I'm sitting in my classroom alone, say before school or during my prep, I can take my mask off and sit at my desk peacefully while doing work. A colleague stops in the room and is a full 25 feet away from me. Will I/ Should I get fired for not having my mask on? Not even remotely close. Will I get fired for not having any pants on? Most likely.

I go to a restaurant and order food. I can take off my mask to eat. Not so much my pants.

Masks will not be treated like pants no matter how much you want it.

At my work, you put a mask on before you enter, you take it off and not eating, you can be fired, and should be. Yes if your in a room all alone, you are expected to keep your mask on. Like it or not, sure take off your pants also, but if someone sees you you risk being fired.

Yes, if you go to the bathroom you are allowed to take off your pants,

Again, They should be. Are their times you need to take off an article of clothing of course there are times its appropriate. Outside those times, you should wear them.

Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Re: What if 20% of teachers don’t come back? [Moonrocket] [ In reply to ]

Jul 13, 20 13:01

Post #248 of 273 (341 views)

Moonrocket wrote:

DavHamm wrote:

I guess I am basically saying. In the fall job 1 should be kids in masks, then move to attempting to educate. But nothing should happen till 100% compliance with the wearing of masks.

And this is why I’m considering private school.

Why should a ton of children sit around missing out on school because a few kids can’t wear a mask? Throw them in the gym and let the other kids move on. Or send them home for a year and they can re-start next year in the same grade.

Wait so a private school teacher / administrator can get a kid to keep a mask on but a public school one can't?

WHY?

Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Re: What if 20% of teachers don’t come back? [DavHamm] [ In reply to ]

Jul 13, 20 13:23

Post #249 of 273 (330 views)

DavHamm wrote:

Moonrocket wrote:

DavHamm wrote:

I guess I am basically saying. In the fall job 1 should be kids in masks, then move to attempting to educate. But nothing should happen till 100% compliance with the wearing of masks.

And this is why I’m considering private school.

Why should a ton of children sit around missing out on school because a few kids can’t wear a mask? Throw them in the gym and let the other kids move on. Or send them home for a year and they can re-start next year in the same grade.

Wait so a private school teacher / administrator can get a kid to keep a mask on but a public school one can't?

WHY?

Parents that care....

Re: What if 20% of teachers don’t come back? [windywave] [ In reply to ]

Jul 13, 20 13:37

Post #250 of 273 (320 views)

windywave wrote:

DavHamm wrote:

Moonrocket wrote:

DavHamm wrote:

I guess I am basically saying. In the fall job 1 should be kids in masks, then move to attempting to educate. But nothing should happen till 100% compliance with the wearing of masks.

And this is why I’m considering private school.

Why should a ton of children sit around missing out on school because a few kids can’t wear a mask? Throw them in the gym and let the other kids move on. Or send them home for a year and they can re-start next year in the same grade.

Wait so a private school teacher / administrator can get a kid to keep a mask on but a public school one can't?

WHY?

Parents that care....

They can kick out kids for non-compliance easier.

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