We have opted for "virtual classes" for our 1st grade grandson. We do not feel comfortable with the "in class" option.

Here is the tentative daily schedule:
8:30 Check in & attendance taken (mandatory)
8:45 to 9:45 Reading instruction
9:55 to 10:10 Phonics instruction
10:10 to 10:50 Writing instruction
11:00 to 11:30 Science instruction
12:30 to 1:30 Math instruction
1:30 to 2:00 Arts
2:00 to 3:30 Teacher office hours

Clearly this is better thought out than the spring suspension of classes and the chaos that ensued.

My point is that the tens of thousands of individual decisions which collectively make up "when US schools should go back" should each be made on the basis of individualized local data, not an accumulation of anecdotes. 3 teachers getting sick in one very specific scenario in Arizona has very little bearing on what I think should happen anywhere in NYC where I live and my kids go to school. Just as whatever is or isn't happening in various European countries that have to a large extent controlled the virus should have no impact on policy in Arizona or Florida or Texas.

---

"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

Really? I'd think that case studies where students and teachers followed a protocol and the outcomes of that protocol would be very useful data points in driving policy in other locations. They tried stuff and it didn't work. Perhaps we should do something different- kind of useful. I find it very helpful to analyze what is working and what isn't when trying to decide what to do when moving forward. I suppose you don't though.

---

---

---

Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Really.

Anyone who isn't aware that, at a minimum, adults interacting indoors for extended periods are at some level of risk is living under a rock.

For any particular decision maker somewhere in this country trying to assess their particular level of risk and thereby decide when and how to reopen, what happened to these women is one click above meaningless. It's implied but we don't even know that their interaction was what caused all 3 to become infected!

I am NOT minimizing the risks, to anyone. I'm only advocating for assessing them scientifically and locally. It doesn't make any sense to talk about whether "we should do something different" and of us "moving forward." There are 50 state governments obviously, 40 thousand local governments, 13,500 school districts. Wildly disparate COVID rates, school infrastructure, population densities. There is no "we" / "us". Your binary options are (a) no reopening at all until there's a vaccine and (b) open cautiously when scientifically locally appropriate. If you're in camp (b), anecdotes are meaningless.

---

"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

I am NOT minimizing the risks, to anyone. I'm only advocating for assessing them scientifically and locally.//

So like most the rest of us, you are probably not happy with Trump and the WH telling us that all the schools and kids need to go back in August. And making light of their own CDC recommendations, to the point that they are actually telling schools to just ignore the ones you cannot afford, or are practical for your situation. Of course no real talk of the absolute worst week of the virus since it hit our shores, or the fact that it will get a lot worse before we can even dream about a real flattening...

Correct, I am not happy at all. It's ludicrous, maddening, impossibly dangerous and wrong on science and the law. But your statement that this has been the absolute worst week for the virus since it hit our shores shows how unhelpful thinking of the US as one community with one decision to make is. A couple of months ago my city was losing 1,000 people a day to this. We're down to a handful now and the entire country is currently averaging what 700? Again, I don't want to be misinterpreted, the national picture is very scary and may get more so. Having been through the worst of it (or at least round 1 of it), I sincerely hope other areas of the US are spared our experience. But you wouldn't expect Italy to keep schools closed because Scotland's situation was disastrous. So no, I don't want DeBlasio factoring in scary stories from Arizona when the time comes to finalize a decision for NYC kids. I don't really want DeBlasio making that decision at all but that's a separate story.

This oped is in line with how I'm feeling about NYC right now:

https://nyti.ms/3gRy8Kp

---

"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

The issue here is that kids are not immune to this virus. They have been a small factor in all of this to this point because they haven't been crammed into small spaces all day together. You said the Arizona example is invalid because you put adults in the room together. If schools reopen, children will become the largest vector of the disease. The first two months of school are cesspools of yuckiness anyway. You add COVID to the mix... If school rooms were well ventilated, distance maximized, and any kid feeling ill stayed home, it could be okay-ish. But none of the rooms I have ever taught in had great ventilation. Not allowed to open windows or outside doors because of security issues. 20 kids in the rooms I have taught in won't be 6 feet square apart by any stretch. Shoot- the SAT and ACT boards want kids 4-ish feet apart to comply with their standards. I can get MAYBE 15 in the biggest room I ever taught in with those standards. Then wearing masks and staying home when ill. Right.

Would be wonderful if enforcement was up to par, but threats of law suits have kids that have multiple instances of possessing weapons on campus staying enrolled. Can't wait to see what they do with kids without masks!

I would love to be teaching and coaching again all year. It's a large part of the fabric of who I am. But making my kids and coworkers into human guinea pigs? Not cool.

I didn't say the Arizona case was invalid. There's a tragic story there for sure. But we don't even know what the story is. Even if the story turns out to be that the women caught the virus from each other which, again, was not established, all that means is that putting three middle aged women in a room together for hours a day will result in all three of them getting the virus if one of them has it somewhere between 0.0000000001% of the time and 100% of the time. In Arizona. In that particular room. In that particular school. It's just not data. Much less data that should inform decision making in NYC or Oregon or Lubbock.

I can't really get beyond that because when you say things like "If schools reopen, children will become the largest vector of the disease." that's pure supposition on your part, and contrary to the weight of evidence that countries that have reopened schools have accumulated. A huge portion of NYC school kids are in day camps right now - mine included. They look a lot like school. Many of them are hosted in schools. We'll see.

---

"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

Supposition? Sure. But the countries who have reopened school have far better numbers than the US as a whole. Looking at the states that decided to reopen fully- the evidence is the spread is coming from being enclosed indoors for an extended period of time. You're willing to risk finding out if your kids are vulnerable? This thing is so new that there isn't a ton of evidence out there yet, but using classrooms and public spaces as petri dishes doesn't seem ethical to me.

Right now NY state has more in common with Italy than it does Arizona. So while I'll never be comfortable using my kids as Guinea pigs my assessment of my and their risks will not give undue weight to the current conditions in communities that are thousands of miles from us just because they also happen to be part of the US. I'm surprised this is controversial.

---

"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

I disagree, you send them to the office, each and every time and let the school administrator deal with it, and the parents. If their solution is to send the kid back, then when they take the mask off again, off to the office. What would the teacher do, if the kid kept taking his clothes off.

I guess that just it, a mask is part of your clothing now. No pants / no shirt / no mask -- no difference pretty sure a school would do something if a kid refused to wear clothing. YES IT IS THAT SIMPLE.



Again, I don't care if the family walks around naked at home, at school you wear clothes, a mask is part of that clothing. No mask same as no clothes, how the school handles kids with no clothes? Should be the same.


I don't care if they have a piss stained mask as long as they have one.

I think all schools should handle no mask's just like no pants / no shirt / etc.... So sure if the district lets kids walk around naked well your screwed. Assuming they would act if a kid showed up with no clothes, the response to no mask should be the same. Period.

---

Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Here's a FACT for you. People in close proximity, especially indoors, will spread the virus to each other.

That is exactly the scenario that schools are in all day, every day, no matter how much you try to "distance" them and force them (good luck with that) to be 100% compliant with precautions. I know it isn't going to work. I've worked in k-12 education for over 2 decades. I see the reality of how kids behave, how faculty just becomes exhausted and complacent, and every. single. year. respiratory illnesses rip through the buildings by Sept-Oct. The reality is that this overconfidence is going to bite a lot of people hard this fall.

25% of school employees are in the "high risk" category. Over 50, heart disease, obese, diabetes, etc. What will happen then they start dropping like flies and you cannot find enough subs? (again, good luck with that!) I've seen schools have to close because of this with influenza let alone something that is 2-3 times more contagious and many times more virulent and damaging to health as COVID is.

To think that suddenly this is going to be OK, while cases rage all around us, and not affect people in school buildings on a large scale is just ignorant, and completely irresponsible optimism.

Right so pay and vacation are done based on years in THAT DISTRICT. so a teacher with 15yrs experience is going to take a paycut and lose time off, by switching to another district (at least here in michigan, most give at most 6yrs credit) So you will fall from one of the highest pay levels to a somewhat near the bottom pay level. Plus job's are offered based on seniority so with only 6 yrs in the new district you closer to being laid off, or getting the unfavorable assignments.

---

Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

LOL did you read the details. They were teaching a Virtual class. But the three teachers decided to run it from the classroom, and all three were their. The teacher that died is the one who brought it into the class, after getting it and then not having it recognized as covid.

So this had nothing to do with a teacher in a classroom, and kids spreading it.

---

Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

They were teaching a Virtual class.//

Not entirely virtual, they did interact with kids out in the field. And I'm quite familiar with this dynamic, we have had several visits from our kids teachers at our place. We meet them at the end of the driveway, we get out of the car with masks, while they stay in their car. We did have one outdoor session for graduation with one extra kid, and it got out of hand, and I had to step in because the teacher and other kid just began to act like nothing was going on. So there is no way my kids are going to be canary's in this coal mine, because it will actually end up being me and my wife who will probably find out when it fails at school.


I posted it up somewhere, but there is also the Christian kids camp that popped 82 folks. I presume that was mostly outdoors too, but no doubt a lot of singing and other huffing and puffing going on with the sports..

3 people in a classroom taking precautions. How do you think it will go when it's 15-20 people in a classroom. Most of them with 2 adults in each.

But kids are 100% immune, it's only the adults that catch and spread it! /s

The biggest public gatherings every single day in the US are SCHOOL SESSIONS, but they will be immune to the spread, lol

I Acknowledged a few posts above that saying noone should reopen schools in any way anywhere until there's a vaccine is a valid and intellectually consistent position. I don't agree with it but if that's where you're at then, fine let's just leave it at that.

If you are prepared to acknowledge that there could be some set of criteria which would allow a specific school in a specific community to reopen in a specific way, then we're not really disagreeing at all. The only question is what those criteria are.

I see a lot of teachers getting behind a hashtag saying they won't go back until there have been no new cases for 14 days in their County. A deliberately very high bar. How do you feel about that?

---

"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

I think we agree on what should happen to these types of students.

Im not arguing we should let it happen. Im telling you the reality is that in some areas and at some ages keeping masks on kids and keeping them away from one another is almost impossible simply due to the cognitive abilities of these children, to say nothing of the selfishness some of them exude.


What should happen and what is possible doesnt always align perfectly in reality.

Sounds reasonable. That's basically the criteria that they used to close schools when this first blew up. But I do think "county" is too ambiguous as school districts aren't always drawn on county lines and some counties are gigantic. I would define it more like in the "immediate community", or something of the sort. But that depends on the health departments releasing real data. They have HIPPA so shoved up their asses, they won't give any details except "this many cases today in this zip code" which is the zip code where they have testing stations.

Pool testing could make a huge difference in opening schools, but have you ever seen a nurse try to give a child a swab test for strep? It just ain't happening on a large scale with children.

In related news:

Federal materials for reopening schools, shared the week President Trump demanded weaker guidelines to do so, said fully reopening schools and universities remained the “highest risk” for the spread of the coronavirus.

I really feel like I come across as arguing a position that's way ahead of where I am...but I feel bound to point out that that quote is deeply misleading - shame on the NYT (of which I'm usually a staunch defender).

The guidelines are talking solely about opening schools and they divide the options into 3 simplistic options which I'll characterize as: virtual, mixed, normal practice. To those options they attach one of three tags: Lowest Risk, More Risk, Highest Risk. I've pasted the table below. You could have asked any sentient person in 2019 to match those options up in the context of a pandemic and of course normal practice is the highest risk. It's self evident.

The quote above implies that reopening schools is the highest risk for the spread of the virus among all other factors. That may be true or it may not be true but it's categorically not what the CDC said.

• Lowest Risk: Students and teachers engage in virtual-only classes, activities, and events.
• More Risk: Small, in-person classes, activities, and events. Groups of students stay together and with the same teacher throughout/across school days and groups do not mix. Students remain at least 6 feet apart and do not share objects (e.g., hybrid virtual and in-person class structures, or staggered/rotated scheduling to accommodate smaller class sizes).
• Highest Risk: Full sized, in-person classes, activities, and events. Students are not spaced apart, share classroom materials or supplies, and mix between classes and activities.
  

If the CDC released a report tomorrow that said, regarding the question of whether to sleep with a mask on, keeping it on all night was the "Lowest Risk", waking up every hour on the hour and alternating was "More Risk" and sleeping with no mask on was "Highest Risk", would you sleep with a mask on, or would you want to know the magnitude of the risk(s)?

---

"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

Trump literally said the restrictions were too hard and expensive to conform to. He expects everyone to just go back to business as usual, despite what the few sane members of government that are left are recommending.

If they don't get COVID infections under control FIRST, which they are obviously not doing, the entire school year is going to be a lost cause. People will get sick, people will die, schools won't be able to meet staff requirements, attendance will be in the shitter, teacher's unions will revolt against working conditions, and it will all go down in a giant blaze of glory. You'll see.

You didn't respond to what I wrote?

---

"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

BULLSHIT, if a kid took his pants off in class, it would not be tolerated, taking their mask off should be viewed as a more severe thing then dropping their pants.

---

Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

No schools will be a risky place to be. No doubt about. But if everyone is wearing masks the rooms are cleaned, well ventilated. That's all you can ask. At that point you have to decide, what level of risk are you willing to take. Will sending your kid to school increase your risk of course it will, you have to decide if the increased risk is worth it.

Kids are not immune, they can catch the virus as easily as anyone else, they can transmit it as easily as anyone else. Not sure why you would think otherwise, or even bother typing that.

---

Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.