I usually save that for the motor bike

Just load it and put it down your shorts. I put mine in under my wetsuit so I don't have to waste time in transition.

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'It never gets easier, you just get crazier.'

Springfield XDS

What about the holster ?

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"For those who understand, no explanation is necessary. For those who don't understand, no explanation is possible."

Is it April already?

well, actually i used to ride with a group which had a weapon carrier, and he had it in a fanny pack. why did he have it? he biked to work on a bike path along a riverbed which had a history of gang bangers assaulting bikers. according to reports of such in the papers, the assailants would physically knock over a biker, hurt him/her, and then abscond with the bike. i hasten to add that i never saw this fellow's weapon, and he certainly had no need of it where our group rode, but he rode that bike path to get to the start of our ride.
peggy

I have a related question:

Where is the most aerodynamic place to put a handgun on my bike? I'm thinking between the arms, meaning I could use it without having to leave the aero position.

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'It never gets easier, you just get crazier.'

I'm sure there are lots of scenarios depending on where one trains, either riding or running. Being proactive is never a bad idea.

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"For those who understand, no explanation is necessary. For those who don't understand, no explanation is possible."

Avoiding areas where you think you need a gun for protection is never a bad idea either.

Absolutely, couldn't agree more, however these days, you never know.

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"For those who understand, no explanation is necessary. For those who don't understand, no explanation is possible."

Being intelligently proactive is never a bad idea.

X2. And likewise, don't live anyplace where you end up looking like "Frozen Snot Guy" from Minnesota featured on the front page of ST ;-)

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DFL > DNF > DNS

The only local cycling group I know for sure are packing heat is a group of cops training together.

Yeah change your route if you think you need a gun.

I have behind the saddle holsters then pull those bad boys out in t2 just run with them in my hands

I've been wondering how long it will be before the UCI and all of the manufacturers agree on some standard for guns and holsters. I don't want to get something that is going to be out of date in a few years.

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"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.

A big can of pepper spray might be more useful in some situations. Unless you're confronted with deadly force, you can't use your firearm. Confronted by six street thugs, I think I might rather have a pepper spray fogger than a gun.

Yeah pepper spray will stop 6 guys with mal intent...

I'd look into either a pocket-type holster or maybe a sneaky pete. Back pocket of cycling jersey or jacket and you're good to go. Just make sure you maintain your gun's finish. Use common sense and be safe out there.

what ever way you find to carry it....please, stay away from canada!!!! no need for weapon up north! we dont like guns!

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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Well, I guess you might wound a couple with a little pocket .380. One might even bleed to death in a hour. Unless they were armed though, you'll be needing a good attorney. If they're carrying a real gun, (9mm +, 357, even a 38) though, a mortician will be more useful to you. As far as the efficacy of pepper spray, it's very effective. Five years ago on my bike I used a big fogger can on four guys intent on relieving me of my wallet. One good fog was enough to convince them to leave me alone. I've used it on a couple of dogs as well. Don't get me wrong, a firearm has its place, (I own several) but you need to know when and where it can be useful.

Recommendation: sub-compact SA or Glock 9mm, small of the back holster, along with the pepper spray fogger. If I had to pick only one, I'd carry the fogger.

This is how I like to carry mine. It's in a aerodynamically neutral area.

Plus it makes people think twice about drafting...

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Instagram | Team Kiwami North America

Like the U.S.

That's quite a society you've got.

Exactly! Is it too late for Americans to vote in that guy that wanted to build a wall on the US/Canada border?

I think you use the term "we" a bit too loosely. There are plenty of guns/gun owners in Canada already. I've met plenty of civilian shooters from Canada; I don't know where they all live, but you have a thriving community in Abbotsford. Abbotsford Fish & Game Club is actually a pretty decent facility.

It just the next big scam by the major bike companies to force us to buy new equipment. Creating another solution for a problem that never existed in the first place.
Maybe that last sentence shouldn't be in pink. In fact it definitely shouldn't be in pink.

Yeah lets encourage them to come up and break the law and lose their nice guns.

No way its legal to carry while running or riding. If they want to fill out a bunch of forms, keep it in a lock box and head to a range be my guest. Keeping it at the ready for personal protection is not an option.

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
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2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

Still working on the holster idea...thought about modifying a plastic holster to screw into the water bottle bosses or even just zip-tying a holster behind the seat. Was hoping this thread would be more helpful. But, man, there sure are a lot of ignorant hippies replying instead.

It seems like your best best would be a Camelbak with an open side sleeve where a holster could be secured. If it rode low on your back, you could slip your hand behind you to access the weapon. It would not seem out of place while riding.

There have to be fanny packs with a similar access scheme.

There are times/places up here where I wouldn't be without a loaded canister of bear spray though... does that count?

I knew we'd get the ignorants all wound up with a post like this, but they can't help it, since they don't understand. Crimes are not being committed by lawful conceal carry people, rather thugs who have no regard for the law and would just as soon run you off the road and steal your expensive bike. As a law abiding conceal carry citizen, who fully understands the responsibility that comes with this, I am merely looking for good suggestions that others have for carrying.

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"For those who understand, no explanation is necessary. For those who don't understand, no explanation is possible."

Smith & Wesson M&P Shield 9mm

Fits in any pocket.

I think part B is in conflict with part A!

Where did I suggest he break the law or cross the border? I was merely addressing these sentences:

I have a little Glock 26 that I still think would be obnoxious to carry on most rides.

Is something even smaller really ineffective or would it be better than carrying nothing? I do most of my training indoors, and live in rural Ohio, so it's not something I need to think about much.

A lot of people carry their gun where they used to carry their balls.

Just kidding... if you're psycho!

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not really, as a society, we made the choice that carrying a weapon in canada isn't allowed unless you have a special permission for your work on protection of life. But a civilian can't. it s a choice we made, and while I understand there are still people loving guns and the sport of shooting...... we overall don't want gun in the streets....

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

I m with you! I have a beer spray canister in my truck and one in my bag when camping! never had to use it....but you never know....my wife gets grumpy at times!

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

not really, as a society, we made the choice that carrying a weapon in canada isn't allowed unless you have a special permission for your work on protection of life. But a civilian can't. it s a choice we made, and while I understand there are still people loving guns and the sport of shooting...... we overall don't want gun in the streets....

Yes and this is the position in the entire rest of the democratic west.

Some time ago I reached the following philosophical position:


Many Americans feel that a society is safer with more guns. If in it's extreme, everyone has a gone on them at all times, or very quick and easy access to one at other times. On paper, this makes some sense - I would be CRAZY to violently attack or assault someone, knowing that they had a firearm on their person or near by, right. The deterrent factor supposedly would be huge! Of course, it does not work out that way in reality, and in the real world, with the US having much higher rates of violence, and an off-the-charts level of gun homicides compared to all other western democratic countries.


Whereas, in the rest of the democratic west, while an over simplification, we simply feel a society IS safer with fewer guns, and with laws and regulations that make it extremely hard to own a gun, and pretty severe restrictions on use for those gun owners


As for riding with a gun? Wow! I'm not even sure where to begin . . . but like Jonny, I am Canadian! :)

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Does anyone race with a gun? Novel way to deal with persisent drafters.

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29 years and counting

We had people getting their bikes and cells jacked on a local bike path (SART for local SoCal) a few years ago. What they did was find something to knock you off your bike before you can react and 3 or 4 assholes were on you, then they would beat the shit out of you...bye, bye bike and cell.

I'm not sure if you guys have ever crashed going 20mph but to think you're going to be able to get the gun out in a crash before theses POS get on you is streach. I'm guess they'll seal the gun, shoot you or both.

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Train safe & smart
Bob

Bingo!

I work in law enforcement and carry a gun for a living. While we can't account for every scenario and contingency, situational awareness goes an awfully long way in avoiding potential shit shows. If you feel the need to carry a firearm while cycling you're clearly not the most situationally aware individual. Either go cycling somewhere else or ride your trainer. The most proactive thing to do is to avoid the area where you think you need to be armed. This isn't rocket science.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

While I agree and don't carry a gun anywhere personally, I would say most sane people avoid areas where they think their life would be in danger, yet still there are armed robberies, shootings, etc of innocent individuals in those areas. For example, school shootings, movie theater shootings, home invasions, etc.. I grew up around the outdoors and have always been exposed to firearms. The idea of a law abiding citizen owning a gun just doesn't phase me. If someone felt they needed to carry a gun, as long as they are responsible, safe, and smart, it just is a non issue. At least in the areas I've lived, you'd be surprised how many people carry, or keep firearms in their vehicles (legally). I personally don't feel the need to do it, even though I've taken all classes and have a permit (was working in various states and permit allowed me to have a gun in vehicle as long as permit was reciprocated by that state). But that's my personal choice. If someone decides to, then it's not an issue to me. I don't have statistics, but I doubt you see much in regards to illegal activities being perpetrated by someone legally carrying with a permit. I know anyone I know that does it takes special precautions to make sure they are safe and aware of their surroundings while carrying. So if guns are legal, and those permitted to carry legally are not causing any problems, what is the issue with it?

Kind of missing the point.

There's a big difference in exercising your rights and feeling the need to be armed while cycling due to self defense reasons. Is riding a bike that critical in one's life that one feels they may need deadly force to protect themselves? Sounds like a fucked up sense of priorities to me.

Carry all the guns you want. Avoiding areas you feel unsafe is by far and away the smartest and most proactive choice that can be made. This isn't debatable.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

As another viewpoint from law enforcement and someone who carries a gun every single day. I do not carry while riding my bike. I don't for several reasons. Firstly, I don't ride my bike in areas and times where it should ever be necessary absent something where my best and first choice of action should be getting the hell away. Now, if I was riding my bike to work, or times/areas with different considerations I might do something different. Secondly, there are no available solutions to carrying a concealed handgun while riding my bike in a training situation which are acceptable to me. Fanny packs or other gun bags are about the only option, and those suck from an accessibility standpoint. Carrying on the bike is silly when you consider the most likely reason to be assaulted on a bike is to steal the bike. If the bike goes, so does your gun. Carrying in jersey pockets or anywhere else on your person is going to be very uncomfortable and not concealed (think about what most riders are wearing during training rides, where the hell are you going to hide a gun?).

Evaluate the real need to carry a firearm while biking. First you might need to reevaluate where and when you are biking, then if it is still necessary really think about whether or not it is physically feasible to add a firearm to what you are already loaded down with. If you're determined that you need to carry a gun, look at others who have to carry one while on bikes (Secret Service and State Department both have to do it regularly) and mimic their setups. They invariably utilize fanny packs, obviously they've determined it's the only reasonably concealable and accessible solution.

Sorry, but even though you are in law enforcement, I'm going to have to disagree with your statement that I'm not situationally aware. I live in a very good part of town, and my ride routes don't take me into bad areas. I am very aware of where the bad parts of town are and purposely don't ride there. But bad things happen and bad guys can be found anywhere. As expected, this thread is quickly getting away from its original question, which is "what type of holster works best for riding".

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"For those who understand, no explanation is necessary. For those who don't understand, no explanation is possible."

I agree. I definitely don't think anyone should ride where they don't feel safe. Just saying that just because you decide to ride (or do anything) somewhere that you "feel is safe" doesn't really change the fact that you can have something happen to you anywhere. And if you believe that you should be able to protect yourself in any situation, so you decide to carry, I don't think that only riding where "it's safe" has any bearing on whether one carries or not.

You need to play the odds. Odds are probably about as close to zero as possible that's something is going to happen. Even if (and that's a big if) something happened do you think you would be able to access the firearm, or be physically capable of dealing with the situation. Ever tried shooting with an elevated heart rate? Now add stress and tunnel vision and odds are you a) couldn't access the firearm efficiently, and b) couldn't hit a target 5' in front of you.

You're looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

I carry my gun everywhere I go within the USA. On airplanes, at sporting events, at the grocery store, my kid's school, you name it. I'm a very vigilant person. I have never once carried while riding and running.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

about a year and a half ago, I had a CC individual nearly run me over. If I had a camera, I am sure it would have shown <6 inches of space between me and his vehicle. It was enough to make me swerve and nearly lose it against the curb. (this was a 4 lane + center median - where cyclists have the right to the full lane and is stated every mile or so). Anyways, he passed and I threw my finger up at him (in retrospect, I should have just let this go). when I passed him (he was stuck in a line of traffic in the left lane at the light, he rolled his window down and started yelling, etc. when traffic began to move, his lane caught up to us and he pulled his gun out telling us (small group of 2 of us) that we "don't want to mess with him". Now, while I am not sure what 2 guys in spandex are going to do against a someone in a car, but he somehow felt 'threatened' - or at least that is what he told the cops when they arrested him 30 minutes later.

From that day forward, I have chosen the trainer for most of my rides, and to give up making something out of nothing on the roads. I learned that when I ride outside, expect bad drivers and carry a camera.

Now, for CC options, Camelback with a side pocket. they have ones specific for CC/easy access. 5.11 makes some as well that might work for you. As for hardware options, I personally prefer the XD9 Sub Compact as with the extended mag, it holds 16+1 in a side stack configuration.

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Team Gingerfight

If you are a Glock guy, then how about a Glock 43? With a Desantis pocket holster, fits great in center back pocket of a jersey and doesn't print much because of the square design of the holster. Still get a 9 mm, but very small. Same sights/feel you are used to, etc.

Can also use a belly band for any single stack 9 mm and very tight, but sweaty ;-)

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Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

As I see it "Crimes are never committed by law abiding citizens!"

Everyone is born a law abiding citizen and will stay that way until...they don't.

Well, as I mentioned earlier, this is getting away from the intent of this post, but let me play along with this hypothetical situation.

I'm out riding on my usual route in an unpopulated area. BillyBob and his brother in their pickup decide they don't like guys in Lycra sharing the road with me, so they decide to make life difficult for me. They try to run me off the road, they threaten me repeatedly and finally force me to stop or maybe even crash. I've tried to get away, but they're not giving up. They threaten me with bodily harm, getting out of their truck with a baseball bat and start coming at me such that I feel my life is in imminent danger. With my conceal carry, I would at least have the option to let them know that I am carrying and am willing to use it to protect myself.

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"For those who understand, no explanation is necessary. For those who don't understand, no explanation is possible."

Just like winning the lottery, although it happens, these things won't happen to you.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

To some people, it's not about the odds, it's about the stakes.

Okay let's say stakes. Stakes are some poor SOB gets shot with your gun a few days later... because the bad guys crashed you off your bike on purpose, stole the bike and the gun while you were on the ground in pain.

Listen to those who do this for a living. Firearm needs to be easily accessible and you need to be trained in how to use it in high stress situations. And the training needs to be frequent. Gun on a bike or even a fanny pack, with a complacent rider because you carried for years without anything ever happening before, and untrained, is not a recipe for successful self defense.

Stop and think for a second. If anything ever happens while riding it will be someone crashing you off the bike to steal your stuff. How is concealed carry going to help you?

Running with a pistol, that is just freaking hilarious to me. I don't even like running with a water bottle or cell phone!

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Madison photographer Timothy Hughes | Instagram

Everyone that I know that carries on the bike carries in a fanny pack. Whatever you do, don't mount it on the bike; a huge percentage of the scenarios where you might actually want to have access to a firearm while cycling involve getting knocked off the bike.

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Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
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That depends on your level of proficiency. I can stop shooting for nearly year and I'd be at 90% of where I left off, which is still substantially faster and more accurate than average. Some skills are highly perishable, like your ability to track the front sight through recoil, but overall proficiency doesn't fade very quickly. I've tested this on more than a few occasions, where I went from shooting 40K rounds / year to zero.

But suppose Billy Bob decides to leave the baseball bat in the pickup and just starts slapping your Lycra-covered ass around with his bare hands while Joe Bob just sits back and laughs?

Don't do that. That is just as uninformed as the OP asking the question.

US is a big place. It's like saying "Europe is safe". Well Ukraine is in Europe. And so Detroit or Compton or Lakewood (Pierce county where like half of all episodes of the TV show Cops were filmed) are in the US. So is my small town in Washington state where the police are bored to death and have nothing better to do but to sit behind billboards looking for speeding drivers. US is huge. Not all of us live in crime infested cities. In fact most of us don't. Our society has never been safer, statistically. The 24/7 news cycle, and the continuous media coverage mostly centered around covering crime and disasters, makes everyone think the US is a war zone, including many Americans. It isn't so.

Those people failed math

You are talking about shooting at stationary targets at a range?

What about 3 or 4 live moving targets, shooting back at you? Right after you crashed a bike? To top it all off, they planned all that and sprung it on you unawares. They got the element of surprise. Also, that'd be the first time you are ever facing that situation, while those lowlifes have probably done it before.

Think about that.

I corrected the typos in the bolded.

The first time they had me jog a 1/2 mile while I was at the Academy, and then attempt some target practice was very eye opening. It was difficult hitting the target once my HR was elevated. That was just aiming at a stationary paper target. I had one experience in my career where I had my gun drawn and thought I was going to have to pull the trigger. It was by far the most stressful thing imaginable. My HR was probably like 200+, adrenaline was jacked through the roof, I couldn't hear anything, I had tunnel vision, etc. I didn't sleep for like two days. Thankfully, cooler heads prevailed and I didn't have to shoot anyone.

And I'm pretty well trained in the grand scheme of things. The high stress component in all this is something people don't understand unless they have experienced it. This isn't TV and the movies.

Now Johnny Spandex out riding his bike isn't going to do shit besides cause an even bigger problem than would have existed had he not been armed. Just my professional $.02 on the matter.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Dilbert wrote:

You are talking about shooting at stationary targets at a range?

Plenty while I'm moving, some while the targets are moving, and I have done force on force - just like this:

:D Thanks. Been typing since I was 10 (Sinclair? Commodore? One or the other) and still can't type.

I usually try to stay out of these discussions. Situational awareness and using your surroundings to your advantage is greatly compromised when riding a bike. You are exposed on the road on a bike in a world of cars. Your head is down, you can't easily see behind you, you can't always hear behind you. You are wearing shoes that limit your ability to run, no easy way to carry a weapon, and you are out in the middle of nowwhere standing out like a sore thumb. Maybe you are tired, bonking, sore legs, weakened condition. This is a very vulnerable position and I can see where having a weapon on you would make you feel a bit safer. I just don't see a reasonable way to implement this however. I personally do not want a holstered handgun in my jersey pocket nor do I want a fanny pack or a frame mounted holster. It just seems to be a huge pain in the neck. I guess I am willing to accept a bit of risk. By the way, the old Time shoes with brass cleats made a very effective improvised weapon. I did have to employ this once. It is a shame that the shoes today are so lightweight and have relatively low mass cleats.

Not only did they fail math they don't even understand the stakes part of the equation. You are far more likely to be shot if you are carrying a gun than if you are unarmed (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...articles/PMC2759797/).

At the end of the day the evidence is very clear, carrying a firearm increases your risk of getting shot in an altercation, so there is no use in trying to bring logic into the argument.

Wow. A certain contingent of the US population seem to have a weird obsession with guns and are oblivious to how odd that is. It's understandable, I suppose, given it's pervasiveness. All sorts of things, some utterly ridiculous, are considered completely normal within societies that don't question them (making arguments to support a position is not the same as questioning it). From US politics and especially US TV and film you'd think it was a complete national obsession but I don't think that's entirely true. But in my opinion they've definitely been unhealthily normalised.

The other thing I find striking is that US culture seems intent on finding someone to be the bad guy in every situation. There isn't always a "bad guy". Sometimes it's just a guy, confused, depressed, trapped in a corner, or just an accident. Bad things happen sometimes. This idea that as long as the people with guns are "good guys" we're solving the problem not making it worse, is deluded. If you've a society of people walking around, many of them perpetually scared and carrying guns, people will die unnecessarily. If the response is to get more guns then you're not solving anything.
Sure, bad things happen and whatever about society in general, an individual may be able to protect themselves with a gun. But historically guns are far better at causing injuries and talking lives than saving them. You surely know this, but as long as you have a gun you feel more powerful and safer as an individual (although you probably shouldn't) and so you don't really care how illogical the whole situation is. It's basically a societal cold war for anyone who feels the need to buy into it. The whole good guys/bad guys and guns thing is just childish but since you've enthusiastically fostered this view for so long it's become inevitable that it seems real and reasonable to you now.

Not everything can be predicted and/or prevented. Shit happens. Accept this and enjoy life. The alternative is to be a terrified victim of religious, political and idealogical propaganda looking for easy answers to make you feel safe. A gun is not an answer to a violent society, even if it makes you feel safer. You're just fooling yourself.

Right, I'm off my soapbox.
back to bikes - have a pleasant ride.

To answer your actual question.... Ruger LCP is very common and well liked, and smaller than the palm of my hand. Or Taurus TCP. both 6+1 .380 No bigger than a cell phone and easily carried/accessible in your jersey pocket. They also make a pocket holster where it can be safely accessed without even removing from the holster to fire. Or a cell phone case sized hard plastic holster. Easy to carry while riding, they have different options more suited to running.

I don't wish to engage in the debate as to whether you should carry or not, that's your decision/right ;-)

Thank you, this and a few other responses were exactly what this thread was about and I appreciate your response.

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"For those who understand, no explanation is necessary. For those who don't understand, no explanation is possible."

IMO those .380 guns are pop guns, more likely to get you killed (or sued) than to protect you.

1. One can legally use deadly force only when confronted by deadly force.

2. If one intends to use a gun based on #1 being satisfied, you had damn well drop your assailant quickly, (using a 9mm minimum) otherwise, using your pop gun .380, although he may bleed to death in an hour, he'll have plenty of time to use his weapon on you. Good chance his weapon isn't a "pop gun."

Never "shoot to wound." The presumption is that, legally, one only pulls his firearm and uses it because one believes his life is in danger. Shooting only to wound implies to a jury that you weren't 100% convinced your life was in jeopardy.

I ridden frequently through the west side and south side of Chicago and never felt even slightly threatened. If you really feel the need to ride strapped, I feel sorry for you. Riding with a gun isn't going to help you.

Also, this type of thread always brings out the Europeans and or Canadians with broad brush pronouncements based on what they saw on last night's Law and Order episode. Don't you guys ever get tired of the same old superior/judgmental crap? These very same people are the ones who love to label Americans "arrogant" and/or "ignorant" without even sensing the irony.

Good choice. I just went with a S&W Shield, as it's 9mm so a bit more punch and also is really thin, so a little easier to hide. It came extremely well recommended and just took it out for the first shoot last night. Nice, and can't wait to loosen it up a bit more. It replaced my Beretta Tomcat, which was really small, but a bit under what I preferred.

[/quote] IMO those .380 guns are pop guns, more likely to get you killed (or sued) than to protect you.
1. One can legally use deadly force only when confronted by deadly force.
2. If one intends to use a gun based on #1 being satisfied, you had damn well drop your assailant quickly, (using a 9mm minimum) otherwise, using your pop gun .380, although he may bleed to death in an hour, he'll have plenty of time to use his weapon on you. Good chance his weapon isn't a "pop gun."
Never "shoot to wound." The presumption is that, legally, one only pulls his firearm and uses it because one believes his life is in danger. Shooting only to wound implies to a jury that you weren't 100% convinced your life was in jeopardy.[/quote]




.380 is becomming a lot more popular for many reasons, but each model is a compromise based on your intended use. For me, whether or not I'll actually be able to use it effectively is the first priority, so on the bike it has to be as small as possible (for me). I'm not aware of any 9mm that is even close in weight to the Ruger LCP .380 (like 10ozs), so you are going to have a 9mm brick in your pocket. Also a stray .380 shot is less likely to hit/kill an innocent bystander, and it's easier to aim/control in theory. Pretty much same round size, less powder. So only intended for under 10yds ideally (which most roadside conflicts would be). Just trying to stop someone from attacking, one decent shot would more than do it. 9mm may be more be ideal... but if it's too heavy/awkward to carry/draw on the bike, then that won't help. A tiny .380 is the only pistol I would consider riding with, otherwise I wouldn't bother carrying at all. If the 9mm doesn't bother you then carry on! (see what I did there? :-) ) Just my personal opinion

Please stop saying this as it is not true in the United States. The standard for the use of deadly physical force in defense of yourself or another is the immediate danger of death or grave bodily injury. I can reference you to case law and state statutes if you would like but stop providing bad information.

Right on point and very well stated. Obviously you know something about firearms and ballistics in general.

Immediate danger of death. Deadly force. Huge difference? I don't see it. I've taken a few NRA courses, and I have a pretty good idea of when one may use a firearm.

  

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380 has become popular because of more liberal concealed carry laws, and mom and pop and aunt Milly now want something for "self-defense," but they want it to fit it into a handbag. It's marketing. 380 is less likely to kill anyone, including a bystander. More importantly, it's MUCH less likely to immediately put down an assailant. Killing is not the important thing really, it's immediately removing the threat. As I wrote earlier, if someone is attacking or intends to attack you with deadly force, whether it be a firearm or a crowbar, a 380 isn't likely to put someone down before their weapon can be used. Do you think criminals use the .380 caliber?

As far as protecting bystanders, being accurate with your shot, through training, is what's important. That, and hollow points, which are less likely to pass through your assailant and hit a bystander.

Carry a .380 give a false sense of security, and IMO is more likely to get you hurt or killed than protect you. You'd be better off carry pepper spray. If weight is an issue, carry a scandium S&W J frame revolver. Load with 357. I've carried that combo often

Excellent points and much more constructive than the emotion driven posts.

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"For those who understand, no explanation is necessary. For those who don't understand, no explanation is possible."

The key words are, death or GRAVE BODILY INJURY. If you don't understand the difference then you need to get some more training.

That's great that you've taken some NRA classes, I'm an NRA certified Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor for pistol, rifle, shotgun, and 12G less lethal devices as well as certified on 40mm LL launchers, Tasers, baton, and physical control techniques. Over the last 10 years I've got over a thousand hours of training courses outside of NRA (who I'm not particularly impressed by) There are MANY cases where deadly force can be used when not faced by an obvious deadly force threat. Multiple attackers, blunt weapons, knives, defense of a defenseless person, physical discrepancies between an attacker and the victim are all possible instances where you could use deadly force to defend yourself or another that is not necessarily a deadly force attack.

I'm done with this going off topic, the OP got some decent information. And frankly I wonder why this isn't in the Lavender room anyway.

I defer to your expertise, however, hardly any of those situations apply here. Let me ask you this, as an "expert," do you recommend that the guy carry a .380? I think that's a more important consideration. Also, did you recommend that the OP get informed, get instruction on when he can use deadly force? Perhaps you did, although I don't remember seeing it.

This is a real scenario that I can see happening out in the country. People are crazy and do all sorts of weird crap, and they don't really seem to like cyclists in some areas. I get buzzed enough, and come across people crazy enough, that this sounds possible. Having a gun, and like you say, the option to let them know you are willing to use it, could be a great deterrent. And I am confident I could put enough space between myself and the attackers to get my weapon if need be. That is practice.

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John Behme
Charlotte, NC

Never said I'm an expert.

My recommendations were above, if he feels the need to carry, evaluate the best way to do it and see if it works for him. I hate fanny packs but they are basically the only way to feasibly carry on a bike. As for choice of caliber/firearm my suggestion would be to carry the largest gun/caliber the person can shoot accurately. Modern bullet design has made most caliber considerations irrelevant, though .380 would not be my first choice of defensive caliber. A glock 43 is basically identical in size to the .380 version, and .38 revolvers are often smaller but with better performance. The only important thing in that conversation is whether or not the OP can shoot that gun/caliber accurately. Only hits matter, and only hits in important areas are effective. A .22LR can be dangerous as hell in the right hands.

carrying like this is probably more of a deterrent:

Emotion driven posts you mean like those suggesting one should carry a gun to defend themselves against a low probability threat, one they can in fact eliminate by changing their bike route, at which time when the threat occurs the gun will probably be ineffective because the gunslinger just crashed off a bike going 20 mph? Like those posts you mean?

Keep the gun at home. Carry, on your person, in an easily accessible holster, trained and ready to draw, when you must go to a crime infested area like downtown after dark. But when riding? Are you serious???? There are so many things wrong with that, already pointed out. You just won't listen.

I think you are well intentioned, but I routinely see statements of this kind from Europeans and Canadians who do not realize how smug and self-assured they often sound.

Gun control legislation is a complex topic with obviously contrasting histories and approaches across different countries. The current state of legislation in any given country is heavily influenced by events and politics that often date back at least a century. While individuals in countries with progressive gun legislation are rightfully entitled to agree with and feel proud about the direction and decisions made in their country, it is far more likely that those individuals were merely born into to a society with such policies already in place rather than having a pivotal role in the enactment of the legislation in the first place.

When you make statements that infer you are a member of an enlightened culture and admonish those who have not yet reached your level of understanding you are not helping to change minds of those who are set against you, if anything your chastisement further solidifies their position that they should be free to determine their own destiny. Moreover, these statements are rife with gross over simplification as they tend to construe the policies of American gun legislation to reflect the personal beliefs of most, if not all Americans.

In reality, it is very likely that there are more American's with as progressive beliefs, if not more so, about gun legislation than there are people in all of Canada. Of course, there are also tens of millions of people on the opposite end of the belief spectrum, but one thing both groups have in common is that they were born into a country with a history and culture that makes this a far more entrenched and complex topic than can be boiled down to such absurd statements like American's haven't yet decided that they "don't want guns in the streets". As if a country of 330 million people who can't agree on anything are somehow of one mind on this.

No need for us to debate the small differences, there are thousands of websites that already do that. We're on the same page for the most part. The important part is get the right gun that's right for you. Even a 22 can be very effective and better than nothing for sure. All have compromises. Well placed small caliber pattern is much better than a wildly placed large caliber. Unfortunately the only thing small enough that I would actually carry is a 380, basically every other gun on the market is significantly heavier/larger and thus less practical on the bike. The revolver you suggested is not practical to draw from a jersey pocket, due to its width and the hammer likely snagging.Unless you want to carry a fanny pack! Anyway there's tons of info on the web that would be better than a triathlon site ;-)

I'd recommend either the Springfield Single stack (xds) or the S&W M&P Shield. Both use a single stack of ammo making the entire handgun thinner which reduces the weight and makes it easier to conceal. I've used both and they both work as expected. The down side is the limited number of rounds a single stack can hold.

Your best bet for a holster would be to pay a little extra and have a custom holster made. I don't think you are going to find a good off the shelf holster to use on a bike.

As a fellow C&C holder I'd rather get a black eye and have my bike stolen than shoot someone. Please don't misunderstand, I could care less about whether or not the assailant walks away, I'm more concerned with the attorneys fees and possible civil lawsuit. Additionally, you would need the assailant to give you enough time to identify them as a threat (usually requires training and superb instincts), react to the threat (access your handgun) and make them aware that further action will have consequences. If I were going to rob a cyclist I'd sit in the bushes and stick something in your front spokes as you rode by. Again, this isn't an argument about guns, it's about the efficacy of carrying while on a bike.

Again, I'm not surprised by this type of response which is determined to convince me that carrying while riding is a bad idea which is purely emotion driven.

I'm not saying I'm going to carry while I'm riding, but should I choose to do so, I wanted to find out what works for people and I did receive some useful responses, but people such as yourself are too worked up to tell me it's a bad idea, that you probably didn't read those.

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"For those who understand, no explanation is necessary. For those who don't understand, no explanation is possible."

SW 340D, internal hammer, nothing to snag, like 12 oz.

Yep. Some say leave no witnesses, otherwise you have nice lawsuit over your head. Even if i do carry a firearm, I like to have pepper spray as an intermediate choice. I think it's far more useful. If a couple of kids want to strong arm you for your bike, do you want to kill them? Of course not. Even if they approach with a knife, I think I'd much rather have pepper spray than a 380. Pepper spray, (the fogger, not the stream one) puts an end to these types of confrontations quickly. Dogs too.

Nice straw man.....but I will bite. If you really understand what carrying a weapon means, You never ever let someone know you have a gun and are willing to use it...never, never, never...........If you pull it, you shoot it, BillyBob and his friend....period

No more century rides in Syria and Afghanistan.
Oh well.

By ignorant, I assume you mean people who don't have a rudimentary understanding of probability and statistics -- you know, people who are very poor at assessing risk.

This has been mentioned in the past before, but the single best deterrent now for potential and actual thuggery aimed at you while on your bike:

CELL PHONE CAMERA.

Seriously, if someone drives by, and dangerously tosses an hard object at you that hits you in the head, even leaving you bleeding and stunned while on your bike, what do you do, draw your gun and fire on him? Whereas with the camera (esp video), you can not only capture the assailant's face and vehicle #, but even prevent situations from escalating regardless of how small or large the event is.

I'll take an on-the-bike or on-the-helmet running vidcam any day over a concealed pistol, unless I'm in Syria or some other war-torn country.

Great idea with the solid water bottles. Makes it so much easier to conceal that I'm carrying some vodka mix.

Is the camera permanently chained to your head? What stops the perp from taking your video equipment after he takes your bike and your wallet?

I was talking specifically about drawing a concealed weapon. You pose a completely different scenario than that. ..............you pose a completely different topic which I do not care to go to on a tri forum

[/quote]SW 340D, internal hammer, nothing to snag, like 12 oz.[/quote]



That would work if you want to rock a fanny pack, but not for a jersey pocket. It is still much larger size than a Ruger LCP, and significantly heavier (it's 13.3oz) especially when loaded almost 50% heavier. To put that in perspective the smallest gun on the market already weighs as much as two cell phones, so in my opinion size/weight is going to be the most important factor for effectively carrying on the bike. A typical 9 mm weighs more than four cell phones, not something I want bouncing around while I ride. 380 micro pistol is the only gun I think possible to carry in a jersey pocket and still easily draw. everything else is going to require some sort of holster system or fanny pack (which is fine if you want but certainly too bulky for me)

I don't know about others, but video and photos I shoot on my Nexus 6P are uploaded to the Google cloud server right away, so even if the phone is lost, the video evidence is still there.

Yep...same as me. Uncle Mike size 12 holster. http://www.unclemikes.com/...de-the-pant-holsters

LOL, yeah, we want to stay on-topic.

SW 340D, internal hammer, nothing to snag, like 12 oz.[/quote]



That would work if you want to rock a fanny pack, but not for a jersey pocket.[/quote]



There's your answer! Fanny pack or nothing. Actually, I'm starting to like the idea of strapping a holster to the bike.

The other issue is sweat damaging the gun if it is in your back pocket. You'd pretty much have to stick it in a plastic bag or waterproof case, which would make it hard to draw and ready quickly.

If you're in Syria, use a trainer. Seriously.

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'It never gets easier, you just get crazier.'

If you are in Syria, I doubt you'd want to waste your limited calorie intake each day with unneeded exercise, considering a large number of people are starving there.

You just clean it regularly, wiping down with LCP. No issues with sweat.

edit: That's CLP.

Ummm, you take the phone out BEFORE any of this badness happens. Pull that phone out the moment you get any inkling of badness coming your way, even if it's as trivial as someone driving a bit too close.

If the assailant is so fast and sneaky that he knocks you out before you can even turn your helmet-mounted camera to him or whip out your cell phone from your pocket, odds are pretty good you wouldn't have much chance pulling your pistol fast enough either.

If you're riding in areas that someone's so determined to kill you and steal your wallet while you're in lycra bike gear (because we carry thousands of dollars in our wallets on bike rides), you've got other issues.

very true, but you're going to run into the sweat issue no matter how you carry it while riding. Fannypack might make it at least less likely. Also some models have a stainless steel option to protect the surface

Although I carry my cell phone in my pocket all the time without a case and it doesn't get wet with sweat unless it's a super hot and muggy day, most of the time it should be OK. Any gun you carry-on you should be in some sort of holster anyway, and that should protect it for all except the insanely hot days. Perhaps an open top neoprene pouch would work

Suppose he's wearing a wool mask? Suppose he just doesn't give a sh*T and doesn't mind or doesn't even put it together that you're playing Stephen Spielberg and robs your @ss anyway? Supposed he's on crack! : )

Dude, now you're' doing crazy talk.

Wool mask robbers on a mid-day bike ride? Seriously? Ok, if that's the case, or you happen to be trailed by cold-blooded masked terrorists fully intent on killing you on your bike mid-ride, you're better off with a pistol (or assault rifle.)

Being armed doesn't always prevent a crime
http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/...article34330491.html

Ok, just to be sure, you ought to affix one of these to your bike then. Front and rear, to be really safe!



http://images.mysecuritysign.com/...-Use-Sign-K-5948.gif

Sure, but that's a pain. I have a hard enough time cleaning my bike after a rainy ride. It's one thing to clean your rifle after a camping/hunting trip, and a completely different deal having to breakdown and clean a pistol each night when you get home from riding.

Beretta Nano with a pocket holster in your jersey pocket might work if your jersey is tight enough.

Nah, that's just more stupid.

Everyone gets the message when you whip out the cell phone camera. Sends the right message, and doesn't escalate the violence. In fact, it's probably the ONLY means of de-escalating without running away or profusely apologizing for something you didn't do wrong.

I hear you, but it takes only takes two minutes to disassemble and wipe it down. BTW, those little 380 pop guns have a reputation for jamming. Just google it.

There you go. That crack addict will just wait for the next bike drive by!

Wow. This thread has been interesting.

My recommendation is to carry the biggest caliber firearm you are comfortable shooting, and is comfortable to be carried. For "people" scenarios I carry a .380 (Glock most often, and a GREAT gun, Ruger LCP, and a Sig...but it's heavier). I practice often, and am familiar with it. When I carry it, I can barely feel it and it's easy to carry. For "critter" scenarios I carry a S&W Scandium .357. Very light, but I notice it when on me. Pulling the trigger when loaded with Buffalo Bore ammo...hurts. Hurts very much. But when faced with a Grizzly, I'll take some hand/arm pain over being chewed on.

Carry what you are comfortable operating and comfortable carrying. If it's uncomfortable in any of those categories you won't carry it...and then it doesn't matter. A .22lr is better than nothing if you know how to use it, just like a .454 is worthless if you are afraid to pull the trigger or you have left it at home.

Only in murica!

Love it or leave it!

It's like getting hit with a baseball bat in your open hand, full swing! I used to practice at the range with 38 in my SW scandium J frame, but occasionally I would shoot 357, as that's what I would carry with. I'd shoot two rounds and just stop, thinking "why?" Why get hit with a baseball bat three MORE times?

That is EXACTLY how I describe it too. I rarely shoot the 357s through it, and every time I do I regret it. I've only gone through 3 Buffalo Bore rounds before I couldn't shoot it again (arm to elbow was numb and my hand...was just brutalized).

but I disagree with your stance on the .380. It wouldn't be my first choice, but it's better than reaching into yoru pocket and just grabbing your dick. Lol

I think that arguing about the size/type of gun is a bit moot.

If you're a bad man and pull over to hassle a lycra clad cyclist (or djust drive beside him), and the cyclist points any gun at your face, you're gunna think twice about proceeding with the discussion. Even if you (the bad guy) have a Dirty Harry hand held howitzer, you're still gunna think twice about leaving the altercation with any sort of slug in your face. I mean, if a .22 slug goes in your eye from close range, you're still gonna be dead. And if it doesn't go in your eye, you're still gunna have a nasty scar. Are wimpy ass cyclists worth it even to a toothless redneck? I think mostly No.

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

Great points. But, in order to really answer the question we need to consider...

If Jesus rode a bike, where would He conceal his Glock?

I've never shot Buffalo Bore through it. I think that might crack a wrist. Just some regular 357. As far as the 380, I don't recall saying that reaching in to grab my dick was better than grabbing the 380? : ) I said I'd sooner carry a can of pepper spray.

So that bike was worth $300? Last time I checked the classic aluminum Sigs were $950. Also, carrying a full size pistol? They like being uncomfortable?

Anyone who thinks they could effectively use a gun while on a bike, when the bad guys are the ones to initiate the confrontation and they are either in an ambush or they have a car, they are apparently unable to engage their brain properly and reason through the situation.

Let's face it. We know it. You should know it. You like the feeling you have when you carry a gun. That's it. Call it false sense of security or whatever it is. It isn't rationally reasoned out. Feelings are fine, but not when safety is concerned. You need to be cold and calculating.

With that logic we'd all be carrying BB guns! I would never use a gun to intimidate someone. I'd only use it to stop a threat as quickly as possible. If it's pointing at a bad guy, it'll shortly be discharging on the bad guy.

XDS .45. in my concealed carry Galco holster in a small backpack on my back. I only carry on certain rides and certain distances.

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http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com

Agreed!! If you pull it, you use it. It is only pulled as a last case, all I have left scenario.

Here is a situation: You have a CC on you, and you're in a gas station/store. Robber comes in and has a firearm and is robbing the store. Do you pull your firearm and confront the robber?

My answer: nope. Unless I'm fearful that I'm gonna die, or that person is going to kill the clerk, the robber walks. I'm not there to be a hero. My CC is to protect my life, and (if I feel) another person's immediate safety. It isn't a "hero prop". It's just a tool.

I agree.
For all the arguments put forward to justify carrying a gun, it's pretty obvious the real reason is not rational at all.
The comments about Europeans and Canadians being ignorant and emotional, making generalisations about americans and getting their ideas from TV shows is extremely ironic.
The arguments for carrying a gun are statistically flawed and are essentially excuses to justify an emotional need. The language being used by several of the pro gun carrying guys is straight out of a TV show "perps", "bad guys", "gang bangers", "hill billies" - it's TV shows and paranoia with 0.1% reality mixed in. I presume I'm included in the accusations of ignorant generalistions? - I'm basing my assertions on many sources, including perhaps 20 visits to the US since the late 90s including working there for a while at one stage. My mention of TV shows in the earlier post was not suggesting I thought they accurately reflected reality but rather that the fact they exist and indeed are the rule, not the exception, says a lot about the psychology of those producing them (having said that I fully realise they're consumed outside the US too). Setting both of those sources of information aside, some of the comments in this thread alone are enough to confirm much of what I said in my earlier post. And I did make a point of stating that my comments only applied to a certain contingent of the US population. Funnily, those complaining about sweeping statements are I suspect within that contingent ;) but I didn't make sweeping statements.

I'm pretty sure when you can use deadly force varies from state to state.

But to no one in particular, Jim Jefferies gun control.

Reminds me of an incident that happened a few years ago, somewhere in the US. I forget where. Similar scenario to yours, one customer has a CC in a leg holster, two armed robbers. The CC customer went along with the robbery, had no intention of interceding, UNTIL the two perps began to gather the store employees and customers, himself included, into a back room. The CC guy felt his life was threatened at that point, quickly reached for the gun in the leg holster and shot and killed both armed robbers.

That's completely off-topic. Do you have a right in your country to defend yourself with a handgun? If not, why comment in this thread? I'm too lazy to go sifting through the entire thread to see where you're from.

It's irrelevant where I'm from. In all honesty I don't know what I could legally carry. Hunting rifles and guns for target shooting are certainly legal subject to certain provisions and I believe it's legal to use a gun for self defence, however I don't think it's legal to carry a gun in public. I know no-one who feels this is a problem, indeed it's not something anyone could care less about. Why would anyone want a gun except for sporting pursuits? It's just a very strange idea. Why do you think the rights surrounding firearms are relevant to my participation in this discussion? IMO neither my rights nor yours make it a good idea. A right is not a compulsion. Legality and morality are very different things.
It's legal to do lots of stupid things. Does that mean we should all go out of our way to do those stupid things? I'm inclined to think not, and to me carrying a gun while cycling is very obviously going out of one's way to do a stupid thing.

I used to ride in Chicago, and no, I'd never carry while riding...
Kind of off topic, but if wildlife (bears) were your concern, I've seen people throw a can of wasp spray in a bottle cage. Bear spray doesn't work. Wasp spray has the reach and effectiveness for bears, so I hear. At least thats what the folks in Southern Oregon do.
If people are your concern, I present exhibit A:

Probably change your riding route. :D
Good luck!

Because it's off-topic. You have a favorite holster, or perhaps a favorite caliber you can recommend to the OP? Perhaps you have a favorite brand of ammunition? If you want to discuss gun rights, you ought to start another thread. I have lots of thoughts about your subject, the whole Euro "government-knows-whats-best-for-ya" thing, but it's also off-topic in this thread.

No point me typing anything more. No one cares and I'm just not going to come off as being terribly entertaining.... I therefore defer to Jim Jefferies!

No one needs to carry a gun on a bike. (Excluding police who patrol while riding bicycles.) But some folks want to carry a gun.

(Just a thought. I've never considered going for a bike ride with a gun, so I've never looked into it. But what sort of laws and restrictions would come into play, especially considering the different jurisdictions you might be riding through? Are you considered to be operating a vehicle while you're riding on a street or highway? Can you have the gun loaded while you're riding? Would you be required to dismount your bike before you can start shooting?)

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"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.

Okay, I said I was finished but.....
If you're just saying I'm off topic - fine. But that's really what you're saying, you're implying that somehow, the location from which I'm saying it has some relevance. How would that be the case? If I was your next door neighbour would my comments miraculously be topical? Incidentally, I don't think I ever mentioned anything vaguely resembling "the whole Euro "government-knows-whats-best-for-ya" thing" so it's news to me that this is my subject! Right, it's late. I'm off to bed. Darn I may have given something away there ;)

Can you provide a documented instance were someone was run off the road and their bike stolen?

Good. You'll be thinking more clearly after some sleep. : )

The specific language in each state varies slightly. But in general follows the language used by Supreme Court rulings. The Supreme Court cases which have ruled on it (generally related to use of force by police) include Graham V. Connor and Tennesse V. Garner. The only major variation in self defense laws in the US deal with 'duty to retreat' restrictions, and those are in place in a minority of states anyway.

Had some sleep, thinking clearly and I stand by my comments.

Compton? Oh wait, Ukraine is a country...

Sifting through this thread and ignoring the 80% of usual anti-gun crap and worse, anti American crap and addressing the OP ..........

There are a number of weapons that will fit into a jersey pocket easily. I have carried a SIG P238 in such a manner without a holster. Pistol in a baggie and cocked and locked. I don't see any purpose in carrying while on a group ride. But riding alone is another matter. And furthermore I do not believe that rural or being in the city makes any difference. However some caveats.

It's probably illegal to do this unless you have a CCL. And I cannot see any situation in which I would open carry. On or off the bike :) Additionally, since a few people mentioned it, putting the weapon on the bike probably raises more questions than it answers. Is a Bicycle considered to be a vehicle ? Probably yes. What are the rules for carrying a weapon in a vehicle ? Most states ( OK I'm guessing here ) probably dictate that the weapon be concealed. That's probably going to be a deal breaker on a bicycle.

Additionally - if carrying a weapon in a jersey pocket imagine taking a spill while exercising your "right" - landing on that bulge is going to hurt. A Lot. So the middle back pocket on the Jersey is probably better than the two outside pockets.

Keeping moisture off the gun would be a problem. Thus the baggie.

This is so widely misunderstood by almost everyone even people with permits I felt you might want to take a look at this map. I have had my permit in various states for 24 years now and while I would never open carry it's going to surprise you how many states allow it. Some require a permit, some don't. Even 'printing' is widely misunderstood even by many law enforcement.

This map is 2 years old according to the article and laws change all the time. For instance Texas is now an open carry state, but there may be states there who have gone the other way and are not updated.

http://blogs.wsj.com/...en-carry-legal-1715/

Much of your post is spot-on, but I disagree with this item. Outside of cycling specific issues, Small of Back (SOB) carry is generally a bad idea because falling on them may (and does) cause spinal injuries, they also pose significant issues in entanglement situations.

I'm sure someone has figured it out, but darn I can't imagine having one riding in a tt position and not have it bother me. The only config I could envision would be a shoulder rig of some kind and riding a road bike. That said I've never done it so can't say beyond guessing. If on hip a cross draw would seem to be a more likely setup to work in my minds eye.

I don't know what the laws are with OPEN CARRY vs CONCEALED CARRY, but you'd think just having a pistol, (or firearm of any type) visible would be enough to deter any would be crackhead assailant. It might get some interesting calls to the local PD about a lycra clad superhero riding around their municipality though.
You'd think highly visible would be the way to go?

That's why it's our duty as citizens to conceal carry as much as possible, so the crackheads and gangbangers and young urban thugs will assume everyone is carrying and back off!!

Also, don't open carry if you're black even it is legal to do so - you're just asking to be stopped and possible killed by someone else perceiving you as a threat.

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http://www.jt10000.com/

That's a personal decision for each person to make within the boundaries of their state laws so I will refrain from saying either way what someone else should/could do. I can't open carry here in FL, but I wouldn't nor will I when/if it passes which it should this year it's in the legislature and clearing hurdles. I believe a passage of open carry in FL would be a good case study for those who say open carry will lead to mayhem b/c we have more permit holders than any state in the country with ~ 1.3 million. So, if the opponents of open carry are right it's about to become the wild west here.

It isn't misunderstood, it is often not clearly defined. Nominally the guidance is that if you are concealing it, it has to be 100% concealed or it could be considered brandishing. If you are open carry then it has to be 100% open. In terms of cycling with a jersey on (assuming you are holstered on your person) it could be interpreted either way depending on how you are wearing it. There could be legal exceptions to the brandishing charge, if for example; you are concealed but you bend over and your suit jacket opens and reveals a shoulder holster that one wouldn't normally see. In cycling, however, the clothes are designed to be fitted so the outline of a pistol would be easily recognized by someone who is looking for it regardless of how well you conceal it. On that note, if you conceal it really well it defeats the purpose of having a pistol if it takes you a long time to get it out of it's holster. That discussion is best suited between the carrier and his/her attorney and or local law enforcement. Generally pistols suck as PDF (personal defense weapons) because they are relatively difficult to use well and there is significant risk of having it taken from you and used against you - especially if your assailant has any kind of background in police, military, or Krav Maga. If you are really worried about it then I would go with a contact taser which can be easily concealed in your cycling jersey and is dead simple to use in anger.

Ohio has been an open carry state for the last 10 years. I lived there the last 10 years (before moving to Florida this yr) and I never once ever saw anyone open carrying a firearm ever. So doubtful that it will be a problem

I doubt it will either, but it doesn't stop the other side the conversation from screaming at the top of their lungs that the world will devolve into a shooting range on the streets if open carry does pass.

I think you are talking to the wrong guy I'm not concealing on a bike. I have no questions or reservations about how I operate with my firearm.

Funny how in one statement you say everyone should carry, then in another how due to prejudice some may try to kill......................so you think its a good idea for all those prejudiced hot trigger people to be carrying that are apt to be unfair and and apt to to quickly pull a gun because of a man or woman's color? ok

Maybe, I was really responding to the difference between open carry and concealed. I think it was you who said that the difference is misunderstood but that is because people don't really look into it. If you were to carry on a bike I would go fully concealed in which case it doesn't matter whether you are in an open carry state or not. If you are in an open carry state and you are open carrying on your bike you have to make sure you are compliant with the law. I could see people carrying open hip but with a rain jacket which could run afoul of your state/local jurisdiction. I don't want to see that happen to people.

Actually I was referring to both LEO's and citizens. Right now we have a high profile local lawsuit of a LEO illegally detaining a guy simply b/c the LEO had no idea what the law is.....it happens. Citizen was in the right, city is wrong and now they are in a lawsuit. I want to add I have the utmost respect for LEO's two of my best shooting pals are retired gov't/local LEO's. They do an enormously tough job for little pay and rarely get thanked. I'm hugely thankful for the work they do and the protection they provide us....that said the laws surrounding what citizens can/can't do need constant revisiting by all involved. The phones will be ringing off the hook when/if open carry passes here ......I for one will not be contributing to that mess for the LEO's. I want to make it clear this isn't an anti-LEO post.....it's freaking hard to keep all this stuff up to date. I cannot fathom doing their job it's complex and like the 3 foot putt. Everyone expects you to make it all the time and when you miss one 'you idiot you suck!'. This is a really tough topic for them and I cannot fathom the stress of that job. I've had my permit for almost 25 years and I constantly keep up to date on the evolving landscape....reciprocity....licensing....state law changes etc.

I wonder what the details of that lawsuit are? Police are allowed to do a sanity check on open carry folks - the constitution doesn't prevent the police from asking you why you are walking around with a gun. Something happened in CO springs where a shooter was carrying his AR around and someone called 911 and the operator said "we are an open carry state..." and that man went on to murder...three people I think?

Do you have a link to a news article?

Here you go:

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_29071759/colorado-springs-police-release-tape-911-call-warning

Thanks. I appreciate it.

Sorry to not make my attempt at parody more obvious. I suppose the first statement is too similar to actual statements we've heard from people who like guns a lot (eg "An armed society is a polite society")

I find the prevalence of people carrying and wanting to carry guns in the US at once scary, sad, and laughable. Terrible overall.

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http://www.jt10000.com/

I wonder if the other posters realize you are a black man...it shouldn't matter but I am sure that it does. I can smell your sarcasm in your original response to 777 from here and I sense that Kenney doesn't get it and may have a different idea of your response if he knew that. Maybe not, though.

Oh....gotcha

If I'm carrying a firearm open carry in Pennsylvania, and a police officer comes up to me and asks me why I'm armed, I'm perfectly within my rights to say that I'm armed because it's my RIGHT to be armed. End of story.

That is true, but they are also checking other things like whether they suspect you are under the influence of drugs or whether you are about to do something monumentally stupid. If you respond the way you say you are probably fine because you are demonstrating lucidity. If you were to slur those words whilst insulting the officer's mother's, you are probably going to be escorted to the clink. The point is, however, the police don't need a lot of reason to make contact with citizens - armed or not. Just like they are allowed to ask, "where are you going", they are allowed to ask why you are armed. I wonder how many times these probing questions have dissuaded hot-heads from escalating to something much worse and permanent simply because a cop bothered to ask what they were doing and why? The police are also generally allowed to compel you to disarm yourself while you speak/interact with them. Refusal can quickly be interpreted as 'resistance' which police get testy about when you have a gun.

 Here is a recent case from my old hometown of Akron Ohio. Some people were pissed because a guy was constantly walking around with a rifle strapped across his back. Police could not and would not do anything about it since they were aware of the law

http://www.cleveland.com/...op_owner_confro.html

I agree it's not a good idea to carry out such practice, but it is the law

I think you're exaggerating. It's not like the police are shooting black kids on the street or black guys in Walmarts playing with toy guns, or black guys being shot simply because they're carrying phones or cans of Arizona Iced Tea. Even if there were, they're black and their lives don't really matter. Plus, even in the off chance that such a thing could happen (which it couldn't) I'm sure the people who did the shooting would be punished.

A friend rocks a DoubleTap Defence in 45. It fits right in his jersey pocket and is about as noticeable as a cell phone. He has the ti version, which might be a good choice since it is impervious to sweat. I do not CCW on the bike, but this is what I would carry if I did. It is a beast to shoot though, if you want an idea, take a ball peen hammer to your hand. They have a 9mm and .223 version, as well.

Did Donald Trump put you up to this?

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If you never did, you should. These things are fun, and fun is good.
- Dr. Seuss

I happen to like the Donald. Granted he might not always be politically correct, but he says what a lot of people are thinking but can't say because we have HR departments to worry about. That being said, no he didn't put me up to this, and thinking about the Donald in a Tri kit is not exactly appealing.

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"For those who understand, no explanation is necessary. For those who don't understand, no explanation is possible."

I tried to think it through rationally (leaving the fruitless debate aside).

Scenario 1 (Bike Theft):
The best way to do this (as the thief) is to put fishing line up between trees and lay in wait. Once you hit it, you'll be down. Bike/wallet/gun are all mine. An alternative approach is to wait somewhere with a blind spot. You can hit the cyclist with a baseball bat before they even have time to react. Same result. Another alternative, wait on a downhill and walk the opposite way and push them off the bike while they're going 20-25 mph. These are all low risk from the muggers point of view. Victims rarely even get a look at who did it, maybe enough to say skin colour and number of people.

Scenario 2 (Vehicular Confrontation):
You (being the car driver) have an altercation with a cyclist. He pulls out his gun. Give him 10 minutes head-start to rebuild confidence that the situation is over and then go and run right over him (ideally on a downhill). Flee the scene or stay there and say that he was waving a gun at you and feared for your life. Chances are he won't even see you coming. If he does see you coming he won't have much time to react, and even if he pulls his puny small caliber pistol just duck your head a little lower and plow straight through him.

I guess a gun would be useful if you have the opportunity to pull over and brandish it. A cyclist is a vulnerable person though so I feel like premeditated attack is difficult to defend. Are we carrying guns for general altercations? I'm curious as to situations/scenarios people have encountered/imagined where carrying has a clear advantage.

(Sorry for not answered your question, not sorry)

FOX pepper spray. Safer for all involved.

I wear Pistolwear PT-2 Concealment holster. I turn it around backwards so it's SOB carry. Usually my Glock 42 or Springfield XD-S 9mm. Doesn't get in the way of my aero position and is well hidden under my cycling jersey.

I don't own a gun but I would never support laws that banned guns in America. Few reasons:

1. We tried banning alcohol. Didn't work out so well. Politicians lined their pockets.
2. We have a war on drugs that is just a money grabbing train wreck. Politicians lined their pockets.
3. We have criminals that don't follow any laws, thus would get guns anyways.
4. We have a police force that appear to be getting more and more aggressive
5. We have a government that is just itching to strip freedoms and liberties from Americans.
6. We fought a revolutionary war with guns owned by households.

Note: Even with citizens having guns, police now have military surplus, thus no matter what, we will be out gunned now.

If we can ban certain guns in a way that guarantees criminals won't get the guns, then lets talk.

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The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.

Anyone would think you people live in Syria.

You should give that rant to people in other parts of the developed world who don't need to carry a gun on their bike training.

Ha Ha, My favorite reply of the entire thread.

Be fair. Nobody needs it until they need it. Some people choose to take those precautions no matter how unlikely the situation may be. Until that time comes, and hopefully it never will, the firearm just sits there quietly causing no harm to anyone. Like a spare kit.

Harmless, Sure if you ignore all of the statistics associated with gun ownership.

I'm sure the mother who was shot in the face by her toddler last year with the "harmless" handgun from her handbag felt the same way too.

A humorous look at gun the ownership debate

http://reverbpress.com/...es-gun-control-laws/

Exactly. This isn't all that difficult to understand unless you don't want to, which is why this thread took off on the tangents it did.

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"For those who understand, no explanation is necessary. For those who don't understand, no explanation is possible."

How many guns exist in America? How many of them have been used to shoot somebody? How many of them killed somebody without the trigger being pulled? Good timing, as I just stated in the other thread that people on both sides cherry pick statistics.

I'm much more likely to be harmed by other accepted parts of modern life. I'm confident that my guns won't fire unless the trigger is pulled. I can do a fine job of ensuring that's unlikely to happen.

Oh wow, you have me there. I don't know of any guns that killed people without the trigger being pulled. But unfortunately we can't kill or ban stupid people, so lets limit their access. That child mentioned above will grow up knowing she shot her parent in the face.

Pink font and an irrelevant response.

Misunderstanding the statistics to which you refer doesn't help. Stupid deaths happen without guns regularly. And I'm not against gun control. I'm against dumb, ineffective gun control. The overwhelmingly vast majority of guns will not harm anyone.

Besides, if we wanted to limit access to the stupid, you wouldn't be allowed online. Relax, I'm kidding.

What I see, cyclists don't die from gun violence, they usually suffer from hit and run by cars. You'd be safer following the traffic rules than carrying a gun.

At least you admit it's only unlikely, and not impossible. I wouldn't want any risk that one of my kids shoots the other (or me). There was a guy on American Idol the other day who still has massive struggles with dealing with the fact that he shot and killed his brother when they were kids.

I don't know, but I'm pretty sure that statistically it's safer for me not to have a gun in my home than it is to have one.

When you see a story on the news about a home invasion, there is a tendency to vastly over-estimate the implied probability of such a situation happening to you. I had to explain this to my kids when they started seeing news reports of house fires and then worried that our house could burn down in the night. The news channel doesn't mention the millions of homes that didn't burn down last night...

These are two separate issues.

Absolutely. Hopefully everyone does an honest and objective assessment of these issues before making a decision.

As a law enforcement professional I see first hand the bad people in this world. I would never want to face slot of these people without a gun. With that in mind I'm an advocate for concealed carry. Better to have and not need than to need and not have. I carry a gun everywhere I go. Exception........ On my bike. I can see no reason to carry a gun where pepper spray won't do the trick. I can see tempers getting the best of people and bullets flying before people think first. How many bike hold ups do you really read about? My .02

Wait, wait...what if there is a zombie outbreak? I would definitely want a gun when out riding or running!

What did you end up doing?

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Are we seriously having a debate on where and how to carry a gun on a bike? Seriously? How sad is this....

At this point I haven't done anything although I had several good recommendations from folks who were willing to provide positive feedback. As you can see though, it didn't take long after your follow up before some anti-gunner quickly had to jump back on the horse and beat their drum.

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"For those who understand, no explanation is necessary. For those who don't understand, no explanation is possible."

i'm taking my SDA class this weekend so that I'll be able to start carrying soon. When I bought my gun, I had a tough decision to make -- do I want something small enough to carry on the bike (like a S&W Bodyguard 380 that should fit in a jersey pocket) or not.

I tried to come up with scenarios in which I would be able to legally use that firearm while riding. I couldn't come up with many, and the ones I did think of had a low enough probability that I decided to go with an XDS 9mm instead, and not carry on the bike. If a car ran over my friends (or myself) the threat would be gone at the same time as the collision, so i don't think you could legally fire. I'm not going to shoot a dog. A mugging might be a scenario for some, but it has a super low probability where I ride, and the chances of somebody making me feel like my life is being threatened during a bike theft is super low. Plug, thugs don't usually mess with guys in spandex, in my experience.

The only realistic situation I could come up with is rolling up on another crime in progress and needing a gun to protect somebody else. (for example, a rape, armed robbery, etc). I could see a realistic possibility of that happening someday, so that gave me a small motivation to carry on the bike, but not enough that I decided it would be worth the hassle. Maybe after carrying on my person over the next few months will influence me to change my mind, but for now I'm going to have it on me at all times EXCEPT the bike.

Not sad, but scary. Very scary.

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no sponsors | no races | nothing to see here

Come on, Francois, regardless of what the NRA and gun lobby would have you believe, regular bullets won't stop zombies.

That aside, if someone tries to steal my bike I definitely want more stopping power than a handgun. For sure full auto, because my ride is more valuable than a human life.

If you're scared of guns, maybe you shouldn't carry one.

I ask all my friends who don't own guns to do one thing.......tell me EXACTLY what you would do, if confronted with a life-threatening situation....and you aren't armed?

"Cower" is not something I will be relegated to. Your choice, though.

That's just how these conversations go. I used to run and ride armed when I lived in an undeveloped rural area with a lot of rednecks that hated cyclist. However dogs were the big issue.

I live in a much nicer area now and haven't trained armed in quite some time. However, we have a serial shooter in the area and while his hunting ground is not in the affluent areas I live, it is still to close and too Random for comfort.

I used to use an eagle industries running pack. Now I'm looking at a Galco belly band. I've known a few cops that always carry and run with these.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

"Paranoid"

From Merriam-Webster...

"A paranoid person suffers from paranoia, having or showing an unreasonable feeling that people are trying to harm you, do not like you, etc. : feeling or showing paranoia"

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"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz

Yeah, shooting someone definitely makes more sense than handing over something so meaningful as a bike. Keeping your ego intact and all.

They can have my bike. They can definitely have YOUR bike.

I didn't purchase a handgun (or any gun) to guard against theft.....and I don't carry to protect anyone but me and mine.

I have NO ISSUES if you want to forfeit your right to protect you and yours. I have no idea why anyone objects to me not forfeiting my rights. None.

This is not the reason anyone would carry. He clearly said "life-threatening".

Be against it all you want, but have an honest argument.

Ok, here's an honest argument: why is a gun needed when mace will do?

If the law allows it, I'm shooting you over stealing anything from me or even attempting to.

Why wouldn't you?

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Because I'm not attached to possessions. Things like bikes are replaceable. Heck, if you have homeowners insurance, it's an opportunity for an upgrade.

It's not.

It's not needed if "running away" will do, either.

This argument is tiresome. Like I said.....I have no issues if you want to surrender your rights to protect you and yours. I have no idea why you have a problem if I refuse to surrender the right to protect me and mine.

Spin that any way you want.

It's called wind. Ever piss into the wind?

Ok Clint Eastwood, thanks for clarifying. I used to have a similar attitude-- heavy into martial arts, getting into bar fights regularly and willing to throw down at any sideways glance. Thankfully my views changed, and avoiding conflict didn't bruise my ego. Call it "running away" if it makes you feel better, doesn't bother me.

Have a few buddies who ride: an FBI special agent (who was on the FBI SWAT team), a county sheriff, former CHP officer, and guy who did dozens of drug runner interdictions with the DEA while stationed in Keys with Coast Guard. I wouldn't categorize any of them as lacking courage. I also know the last thing any of them would do is pull a weapon on someone jacking their ride.

Protect what? Your property? It's insured. Your ego? No one cares. And you MUST learn not to care either or it will undo you.

Life or safety? That's the only thing worth protecting. Why not run away or talk your way out of it? Or never get into it in the first place?

Using this logic, every victim of a crime should have never gotten into that situation in the first place? So it's their fault for "getting into" the situation???

I have a LTCF and I often do, not when riding or running, but sometimes I think about it, like the other night when some asshole tried to run me off the road twice cause he had a nice shiny BMW 7 series and didn't think I should be riding on the road, he got out and wanted to fight, I laughed at him, gave him the bird and rode away. I prefer to never ever have to pull my weapon, but I won't hesitate to if need be. How did I know this asshat wasn't carrying?

If you'd read what I wrote, earlier, you'd know I have no issues with running away to avoid using a gun. Life is the only thing worth protecting. We agree on that. That's the only thing I'm advocating for (the right to protect against those threats).

You obviously don't know the rules of engagement in my state. The instigator can't escalate a confrontation, lest they be charged. You act like people are looking for a reason to instigate confrontation. That's the LAST thing on my mind. I am a MUCH more subdued person, since I got my CHP.

Who said anyone is scared of guns? You don't have to be scared of guns to be anti gun! What I am "scared" of is a bunch of idiots out on their bikes with guns.

I am a former US Marine and also a former Deputy Sheriff. I have probably shot and or owned more guns than the average person in my lifetime and I am VERY anti gun.

I would say if you are so scared to ride that you have to arm yourself then maybe you should get a trainer and ride 100% inside.

Sounds like I might have needed a gun to protect myself from you. Unlike younger you, most people who conceal and carry are not looking for a fight. They are just looking to win the fight if one becomes unavoidable.

+1!

I'm not scared to buy groceries, walk the dog, go to dinner in a restaurant, hike in the woods, go camping OR ride my bike. But, I have the right to carry my weapon when I do all these things. So, I do (most times).

I am a law-abiding citizen who's never committed a crime. I am not who you need to be afraid of.

So if you don't carry a gun your only choice is to "cower"??? Seriously???

I'd ask you the same thing, tell me EXACTLY what you would do and not cower is not an exact answer.

I am pro gun but rants like this do nothing but make ccw holders look like vigilantes looking for a fight.

Get off my lawn regards.

So you have no problem with somebody violating your personal space, having their way with you, and being at the mercy of their whims to harm you? Robbers do kill people they take things from. I guess I just don't understand that beta or lesser male behavior.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

No you don't. You may ride with them (doubtful), but they aren't your buddies.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Why would I do that if I can just as easily carry a gun? You ever try to ride a trainer or run on a treadmill more than an hour?

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

To the OP, I went and bought the Galco Underwrap at lunch. I'll tell you how it works on tonight's long run.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Again, you obviously haven't read my previous statements. As a CHP (that's what we have in my state) holder, the LAST thing I want is a confrontation. But, in a life-threatening situation, I would match force with force.

I don't know why this is such a hard concept for some to grasp. I'm just not going to forfeit my right to protect myself. I don't really care that you (general statement) do. It doesn't affect me. If you're just looking to stir the shit, you can continue to put words in people's mouths and come up with ridiculous scenarios of vigilante justice. But, they're just that............ridiculous.