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Re: Conceal Carry Recommendations [DJFaithful] [ In reply to ]
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[/quote] IMO those .380 guns are pop guns, more likely to get you killed (or sued) than to protect you.
1. One can legally use deadly force only when confronted by deadly force.
2. If one intends to use a gun based on #1 being satisfied, you had damn well drop your assailant quickly, (using a 9mm minimum) otherwise, using your pop gun .380, although he may bleed to death in an hour, he'll have plenty of time to use his weapon on you. Good chance his weapon isn't a "pop gun."
Never "shoot to wound." The presumption is that, legally, one only pulls his firearm and uses it because one believes his life is in danger. Shooting only to wound implies to a jury that you weren't 100% convinced your life was in jeopardy.[/quote]




.380 is becomming a lot more popular for many reasons, but each model is a compromise based on your intended use. For me, whether or not I'll actually be able to use it effectively is the first priority, so on the bike it has to be as small as possible (for me). I'm not aware of any 9mm that is even close in weight to the Ruger LCP .380 (like 10ozs), so you are going to have a 9mm brick in your pocket. Also a stray .380 shot is less likely to hit/kill an innocent bystander, and it's easier to aim/control in theory. Pretty much same round size, less powder. So only intended for under 10yds ideally (which most roadside conflicts would be). Just trying to stop someone from attacking, one decent shot would more than do it. 9mm may be more be ideal... but if it's too heavy/awkward to carry/draw on the bike, then that won't help. A tiny .380 is the only pistol I would consider riding with, otherwise I wouldn't bother carrying at all. If the 9mm doesn't bother you then carry on! (see what I did there? :-) ) Just my personal opinion
Last edited by: USPro Tri: Jan 18, 16 12:22
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Re: Conceal Carry Recommendations [DJFaithful] [ In reply to ]
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DJFaithful wrote:
1. One can legally use deadly force only when confronted by deadly force.

Please stop saying this as it is not true in the United States. The standard for the use of deadly physical force in defense of yourself or another is the immediate danger of death or grave bodily injury. I can reference you to case law and state statutes if you would like but stop providing bad information.
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Re: Conceal Carry Recommendations [USPro Tri] [ In reply to ]
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USPro Tri wrote:


.380 is becoming a lot more popular for many reasons, but each model is a compromise based on your intended use. For me, whether or not I'll actually be able to use it effectively is the first priority, so on the bike it has to be as small as possible (for me). I'm not aware of any 9mm that is even close in weight to the Ruger LCP .380 (like 10ozs), so you are going to have a 9mm brick in your pocket. Also a stray .380 shot is less likely to hit/kill an innocent bystander, and it's easier to aim/control in theory. Pretty much same round size, less powder. So only intended for under 10yds ideally (which most roadside conflicts would be). Just trying to stop someone from attacking, one decent shot would more than do it. 9mm may be more be ideal... but if it's too heavy/awkward to carry/draw on the bike, then that won't help. A tiny .380 is the only pistol I would consider riding with, otherwise I wouldn't bother carrying at all. If the 9mm doesn't bother you then carry on! (see what I did there? :-) ) Just my personal opinion


Right on point and very well stated. Obviously you know something about firearms and ballistics in general.
Last edited by: NealH: Jan 18, 16 12:31
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Re: Conceal Carry Recommendations [xgep] [ In reply to ]
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xgep wrote:
DJFaithful wrote:
1. One can legally use deadly force only when confronted by deadly force.


Please stop saying this as it is not true in the United States. The standard for the use of deadly physical force in defense of yourself or another is the immediate danger of death or grave bodily injury. I can reference you to case law and state statutes if you would like but stop providing bad information.

Immediate danger of death. Deadly force. Huge difference? I don't see it. I've taken a few NRA courses, and I have a pretty good idea of when one may use a firearm.
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Re: Conceal Carry Recommendations [USPro Tri] [ In reply to ]
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380 has become popular because of more liberal concealed carry laws, and mom and pop and aunt Milly now want something for "self-defense," but they want it to fit it into a handbag. It's marketing. 380 is less likely to kill anyone, including a bystander. More importantly, it's MUCH less likely to immediately put down an assailant. Killing is not the important thing really, it's immediately removing the threat. As I wrote earlier, if someone is attacking or intends to attack you with deadly force, whether it be a firearm or a crowbar, a 380 isn't likely to put someone down before their weapon can be used. Do you think criminals use the .380 caliber?

As far as protecting bystanders, being accurate with your shot, through training, is what's important. That, and hollow points, which are less likely to pass through your assailant and hit a bystander.

Carry a .380 give a false sense of security, and IMO is more likely to get you hurt or killed than protect you. You'd be better off carry pepper spray. If weight is an issue, carry a scandium S&W J frame revolver. Load with 357. I've carried that combo often
Last edited by: DJFaithful: Jan 18, 16 12:57
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Re: Conceal Carry Recommendations [DJFaithful] [ In reply to ]
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Excellent points and much more constructive than the emotion driven posts.


"For those who understand, no explanation is necessary. For those who don't understand, no explanation is possible."
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Re: Conceal Carry Recommendations [DJFaithful] [ In reply to ]
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The key words are, death or GRAVE BODILY INJURY. If you don't understand the difference then you need to get some more training.

That's great that you've taken some NRA classes, I'm an NRA certified Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor for pistol, rifle, shotgun, and 12G less lethal devices as well as certified on 40mm LL launchers, Tasers, baton, and physical control techniques. Over the last 10 years I've got over a thousand hours of training courses outside of NRA (who I'm not particularly impressed by) There are MANY cases where deadly force can be used when not faced by an obvious deadly force threat. Multiple attackers, blunt weapons, knives, defense of a defenseless person, physical discrepancies between an attacker and the victim are all possible instances where you could use deadly force to defend yourself or another that is not necessarily a deadly force attack.

I'm done with this going off topic, the OP got some decent information. And frankly I wonder why this isn't in the Lavender room anyway.
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Re: Conceal Carry Recommendations [xgep] [ In reply to ]
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xgep wrote:
The key words are, death or GRAVE BODILY INJURY. If you don't understand the difference then you need to get some more training.

That's great that you've taken some NRA classes, I'm an NRA certified Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor for pistol, rifle, shotgun, and 12G less lethal devices as well as certified on 40mm LL launchers, Tasers, baton, and physical control techniques. Over the last 10 years I've got over a thousand hours of training courses outside of NRA (who I'm not particularly impressed by) There are MANY cases where deadly force can be used when not faced by an obvious deadly force threat. Multiple attackers, blunt weapons, knives, defense of a defenseless person, physical discrepancies between an attacker and the victim are all possible instances where you could use deadly force to defend yourself or another that is not necessarily a deadly force attack.

I'm done with this going off topic, the OP got some decent information. And frankly I wonder why this isn't in the Lavender room anyway.

I defer to your expertise, however, hardly any of those situations apply here. Let me ask you this, as an "expert," do you recommend that the guy carry a .380? I think that's a more important consideration. Also, did you recommend that the OP get informed, get instruction on when he can use deadly force? Perhaps you did, although I don't remember seeing it.
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Re: Conceal Carry Recommendations [HBB] [ In reply to ]
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HBB wrote:
Well, as I mentioned earlier, this is getting away from the intent of this post, but let me play along with this hypothetical situation.

I'm out riding on my usual route in an unpopulated area. BillyBob and his brother in their pickup decide they don't like guys in Lycra sharing the road with me, so they decide to make life difficult for me. They try to run me off the road, they threaten me repeatedly and finally force me to stop or maybe even crash. I've tried to get away, but they're not giving up. They threaten me with bodily harm, getting out of their truck with a baseball bat and start coming at me such that I feel my life is in imminent danger. With my conceal carry, I would at least have the option to let them know that I am carrying and am willing to use it to protect myself.

This is a real scenario that I can see happening out in the country. People are crazy and do all sorts of weird crap, and they don't really seem to like cyclists in some areas. I get buzzed enough, and come across people crazy enough, that this sounds possible. Having a gun, and like you say, the option to let them know you are willing to use it, could be a great deterrent. And I am confident I could put enough space between myself and the attackers to get my weapon if need be. That is practice.


--------------------------------------------------------
John Behme
Charlotte, NC
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Re: Conceal Carry Recommendations [DJFaithful] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Let me ask you this, as an "expert," do you recommend that the guy carry a .380?

Never said I'm an expert.

My recommendations were above, if he feels the need to carry, evaluate the best way to do it and see if it works for him. I hate fanny packs but they are basically the only way to feasibly carry on a bike. As for choice of caliber/firearm my suggestion would be to carry the largest gun/caliber the person can shoot accurately. Modern bullet design has made most caliber considerations irrelevant, though .380 would not be my first choice of defensive caliber. A glock 43 is basically identical in size to the .380 version, and .38 revolvers are often smaller but with better performance. The only important thing in that conversation is whether or not the OP can shoot that gun/caliber accurately. Only hits matter, and only hits in important areas are effective. A .22LR can be dangerous as hell in the right hands.
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Re: Conceal Carry Recommendations [HBB] [ In reply to ]
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carrying like this is probably more of a deterrent:


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Re: Conceal Carry Recommendations [HBB] [ In reply to ]
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HBB wrote:
Excellent points and much more constructive than the emotion driven posts.

Emotion driven posts you mean like those suggesting one should carry a gun to defend themselves against a low probability threat, one they can in fact eliminate by changing their bike route, at which time when the threat occurs the gun will probably be ineffective because the gunslinger just crashed off a bike going 20 mph? Like those posts you mean?

Keep the gun at home. Carry, on your person, in an easily accessible holster, trained and ready to draw, when you must go to a crime infested area like downtown after dark. But when riding? Are you serious???? There are so many things wrong with that, already pointed out. You just won't listen.
Last edited by: Dilbert: Jan 18, 16 13:25
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Re: Conceal Carry Recommendations [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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jonnyo wrote:
rijndael wrote:
jonnyo wrote:
....please, stay away from canada!!!! no need for weapon up north! we dont like guns!


I think you use the term "we" a bit too loosely. There are plenty of guns/gun owners in Canada already. I've met plenty of civilian shooters from Canada; I don't know where they all live, but you have a thriving community in Abbotsford. Abbotsford Fish & Game Club is actually a pretty decent facility.


not really, as a society, we made the choice that carrying a weapon in canada isn't allowed unless you have a special permission for your work on protection of life. But a civilian can't. it s a choice we made, and while I understand there are still people loving guns and the sport of shooting...... we overall don't want gun in the streets....

I think you are well intentioned, but I routinely see statements of this kind from Europeans and Canadians who do not realize how smug and self-assured they often sound.

Gun control legislation is a complex topic with obviously contrasting histories and approaches across different countries. The current state of legislation in any given country is heavily influenced by events and politics that often date back at least a century. While individuals in countries with progressive gun legislation are rightfully entitled to agree with and feel proud about the direction and decisions made in their country, it is far more likely that those individuals were merely born into to a society with such policies already in place rather than having a pivotal role in the enactment of the legislation in the first place.

When you make statements that infer you are a member of an enlightened culture and admonish those who have not yet reached your level of understanding you are not helping to change minds of those who are set against you, if anything your chastisement further solidifies their position that they should be free to determine their own destiny. Moreover, these statements are rife with gross over simplification as they tend to construe the policies of American gun legislation to reflect the personal beliefs of most, if not all Americans.

In reality, it is very likely that there are more American's with as progressive beliefs, if not more so, about gun legislation than there are people in all of Canada. Of course, there are also tens of millions of people on the opposite end of the belief spectrum, but one thing both groups have in common is that they were born into a country with a history and culture that makes this a far more entrenched and complex topic than can be boiled down to such absurd statements like American's haven't yet decided that they "don't want guns in the streets". As if a country of 330 million people who can't agree on anything are somehow of one mind on this.
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Re: Conceal Carry Recommendations [DJFaithful] [ In reply to ]
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No need for us to debate the small differences, there are thousands of websites that already do that. We're on the same page for the most part. The important part is get the right gun that's right for you. Even a 22 can be very effective and better than nothing for sure. All have compromises. Well placed small caliber pattern is much better than a wildly placed large caliber. Unfortunately the only thing small enough that I would actually carry is a 380, basically every other gun on the market is significantly heavier/larger and thus less practical on the bike. The revolver you suggested is not practical to draw from a jersey pocket, due to its width and the hammer likely snagging.Unless you want to carry a fanny pack! Anyway there's tons of info on the web that would be better than a triathlon site ;-)
Last edited by: USPro Tri: Jan 18, 16 13:40
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Re: Conceal Carry Recommendations [HBB] [ In reply to ]
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I'd recommend either the Springfield Single stack (xds) or the S&W M&P Shield. Both use a single stack of ammo making the entire handgun thinner which reduces the weight and makes it easier to conceal. I've used both and they both work as expected. The down side is the limited number of rounds a single stack can hold.

Your best bet for a holster would be to pay a little extra and have a custom holster made. I don't think you are going to find a good off the shelf holster to use on a bike.

As a fellow C&C holder I'd rather get a black eye and have my bike stolen than shoot someone. Please don't misunderstand, I could care less about whether or not the assailant walks away, I'm more concerned with the attorneys fees and possible civil lawsuit. Additionally, you would need the assailant to give you enough time to identify them as a threat (usually requires training and superb instincts), react to the threat (access your handgun) and make them aware that further action will have consequences. If I were going to rob a cyclist I'd sit in the bushes and stick something in your front spokes as you rode by. Again, this isn't an argument about guns, it's about the efficacy of carrying while on a bike.
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Re: Conceal Carry Recommendations [Dilbert] [ In reply to ]
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Again, I'm not surprised by this type of response which is determined to convince me that carrying while riding is a bad idea which is purely emotion driven.

I'm not saying I'm going to carry while I'm riding, but should I choose to do so, I wanted to find out what works for people and I did receive some useful responses, but people such as yourself are too worked up to tell me it's a bad idea, that you probably didn't read those.


"For those who understand, no explanation is necessary. For those who don't understand, no explanation is possible."
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Re: Conceal Carry Recommendations [USPro Tri] [ In reply to ]
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USPro Tri wrote:
No need for us to debate the small differences, there are thousands of websites that already do that. We're on the same page for the most part. The important part is get the right gun that's right for you. Even a 22 can be very effective and better than nothing for sure. All have compromises. Well placed small caliber pattern is much better than a wildly placed large caliber. Unfortunately the only thing small enough that I would actually carry is a 380, basically every other gun on the market is significantly heavier/larger and thus less practical on the bike. The revolver you suggested is not practical to draw from a jersey pocket, due to its width and the hammer likely snagging.Unless you want to carry a fanny pack! Anyway there's tons of info on the web that would be better than a triathlon site ;-)

SW 340D, internal hammer, nothing to snag, like 12 oz.
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Re: Conceal Carry Recommendations [Mexpedip] [ In reply to ]
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Mexpedip wrote:
I'd recommend either the Springfield Single stack (xds) or the S&W M&P Shield. Both use a single stack of ammo making the entire handgun thinner which reduces the weight and makes it easier to conceal. I've used both and they both work as expected. The down side is the limited number of rounds a single stack can hold.

Your best bet for a holster would be to pay a little extra and have a custom holster made. I don't think you are going to find a good off the shelf holster to use on a bike.

As a fellow C&C holder I'd rather get a black eye and have my bike stolen than shoot someone. Please don't misunderstand, I could care less about whether or not the assailant walks away, I'm more concerned with the attorneys fees and possible civil lawsuit. Additionally, you would need the assailant to give you enough time to identify them as a threat (usually requires training and superb instincts), react to the threat (access your handgun) and make them aware that further action will have consequences. If I were going to rob a cyclist I'd sit in the bushes and stick something in your front spokes as you rode by. Again, this isn't an argument about guns, it's about the efficacy of carrying while on a bike.


Yep. Some say leave no witnesses, otherwise you have nice lawsuit over your head. Even if i do carry a firearm, I like to have pepper spray as an intermediate choice. I think it's far more useful. If a couple of kids want to strong arm you for your bike, do you want to kill them? Of course not. Even if they approach with a knife, I think I'd much rather have pepper spray than a 380. Pepper spray, (the fogger, not the stream one) puts an end to these types of confrontations quickly. Dogs too.
Last edited by: DJFaithful: Jan 18, 16 14:54
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Re: Conceal Carry Recommendations [HBB] [ In reply to ]
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HBB wrote:
Well, as I mentioned earlier, this is getting away from the intent of this post, but let me play along with this hypothetical situation.

I'm out riding on my usual route in an unpopulated area. BillyBob and his brother in their pickup decide they don't like guys in Lycra sharing the road with me, so they decide to make life difficult for me. They try to run me off the road, they threaten me repeatedly and finally force me to stop or maybe even crash. I've tried to get away, but they're not giving up. They threaten me with bodily harm, getting out of their truck with a baseball bat and start coming at me such that I feel my life is in imminent danger. With my conceal carry, I would at least have the option to let them know that I am carrying and am willing to use it to protect myself.

Nice straw man.....but I will bite. If you really understand what carrying a weapon means, You never ever let someone know you have a gun and are willing to use it...never, never, never...........If you pull it, you shoot it, BillyBob and his friend....period
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Re: Conceal Carry Recommendations [kiwi.] [ In reply to ]
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kiwi. wrote:
HBB wrote:
I'm sure there are lots of scenarios depending on where one trains, either riding or running. Being proactive is never a bad idea.


Avoiding areas where you think you need a gun for protection is never a bad idea either.

No more century rides in Syria and Afghanistan.
Oh well.
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Re: Conceal Carry Recommendations [HBB] [ In reply to ]
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HBB wrote:
I knew we'd get the ignorants all wound up with a post like this, but they can't help it, since they don't understand. Crimes are not being committed by lawful conceal carry people, rather thugs who have no regard for the law and would just as soon run you off the road and steal your expensive bike. As a law abiding conceal carry citizen, who fully understands the responsibility that comes with this, I am merely looking for good suggestions that others have for carrying.

By ignorant, I assume you mean people who don't have a rudimentary understanding of probability and statistics -- you know, people who are very poor at assessing risk.
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Re: Conceal Carry Recommendations [Kenney] [ In reply to ]
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Kenney wrote:
HBB wrote:
You never ever let someone know you have a gun and are willing to use it...never, never, never...........

I have avid gun enthusiast friends who would disagree! In Pennsylvania one can openly carry a firearm, no need even for carry permit! ...(except within Philly city limits, in which case, you can open carry, but you do need a carry permit.)

It's not uncommon for a dozen of them to dine at a restaurant, all with handguns on belts. They do get stares though.
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Re: Conceal Carry Recommendations [DJFaithful] [ In reply to ]
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This has been mentioned in the past before, but the single best deterrent now for potential and actual thuggery aimed at you while on your bike:

CELL PHONE CAMERA.

Seriously, if someone drives by, and dangerously tosses an hard object at you that hits you in the head, even leaving you bleeding and stunned while on your bike, what do you do, draw your gun and fire on him? Whereas with the camera (esp video), you can not only capture the assailant's face and vehicle #, but even prevent situations from escalating regardless of how small or large the event is.

I'll take an on-the-bike or on-the-helmet running vidcam any day over a concealed pistol, unless I'm in Syria or some other war-torn country.
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Re: Conceal Carry Recommendations [BrandonS] [ In reply to ]
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BrandonS wrote:
This is how I like to carry mine. It's in a aerodynamically neutral area.



Great idea with the solid water bottles. Makes it so much easier to conceal that I'm carrying some vodka mix.
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Re: Conceal Carry Recommendations [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
This has been mentioned in the past before, but the single best deterrent now for potential and actual thuggery aimed at you while on your bike:

CELL PHONE CAMERA.

Seriously, if someone drives by, and dangerously tosses an hard object at you that hits you in the head, even leaving you bleeding and stunned while on your bike, what do you do, draw your gun and fire on him? Whereas with the camera (esp video), you can not only capture the assailant's face and vehicle #, but even prevent situations from escalating regardless of how small or large the event is.

I'll take an on-the-bike or on-the-helmet running vidcam any day over a concealed pistol, unless I'm in Syria or some other war-torn country.

Is the camera permanently chained to your head? What stops the perp from taking your video equipment after he takes your bike and your wallet?
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