wow

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
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I was just about to post this same question. You saw the post on BT in the CDA thread too then.

Sounds sort of dumb if there's really any truth at all to it. The lake is huge and could easily support a single loop swim if they wanted ... and the only recent problem with the swim course was the rather dumb compression of the beach start area that could easily be fixed by just letting the start occur on the larger beach area as it has in the past. I would hope there is no truth to the "rumor" .... but they should expand the beach start area like it was before.

Dave

I hadn't heard of them doing this but it would be a nightmare if they did. I started toward the back of the TT start at Louisville and that was awful enough, and that isn't even a double loop swim. It would be a mess at the start of the second loop. A better option is to just not have so many participants that the start gets crowded out, but I know that option doesn't make as much money.

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_____________________________________________________
Instagram | Team Kiwami North America

I've done a lot of IMs, at different venues, and for whatever reason, CDA remains the most brutal swim for me. I've done the race several times and feel like I wrestle more than swim, and never get clear water. I'd welcome any attempt to spread us out.

I think this is actually a good thing for the sport. I know not everyone will like this...If I were racing, I'd want to know where my competition is throughout the race...if that's even possible - maybe, age-group wave starts would be better? But, from a safety perspective, I think this is a good thing. Many will have different opinions...reduced participants, unqualified entrants, etc.

I'd say one of the major concerns that keep new triathletes from sticking with the sport is the swim.

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Mat Steinmetz

51-SPEEDSHOP.com - instagram - @matsteinmetz - facebook

Really not a fan of this. I probably would have done Tremblant again if I had known CDA was going to go to a TT.

They should at least ask people what their expected swim time is and go out based on that like a coral start for a marathon.

That sounds like what they're going to do. My experience with marathons though is that you have to have the data to back up your corral placement.

My only concern is how they manage race timing. So long as my clock doesn't start until I get to go, I'm good. I don't mind having less than 17 hours to finish, but I don't want my clock to start running before I get to swim. That's going to be a challenge at CDA. It works at Louisville, since we are all in a line. With CDA's small entry into the swim corral, and the crush of spectators at that entry point, they are going to have to change something to make it work.

I think, for marathons, the only people that really need to back up their coral assignments with data are the fast ones that want to be in the elite waves.

Boston is the only one that actually verifies data for normal/non-elites age groupers. All other marathons that I've done, Chicago, LA, NYC, Philly, MCM and and a bunch more, ask you for it but it's an honor system. If it's my first marathon and I'm a 5 hour marathon, I can say that I'm a 3 hour marathoner and nothing will be done to verify it. Boston assigns you based on your BQ time. You could move back to a slower coral, but not up to a faster one.

Most IMs have really high numbers of first timers. IMFL, one year, has something like 50% first timers. It's hard for a first timer to acurately predict their swim time, especially if they are not swimmers to begin with. Personally, I think it's more fun to just throw everyone in there at the same time :)

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__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."

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This will be #7 IMCDA for me .... the only one I had any problem in the swim was last year with the smaller beach start area that made things much more congested. Frankly, if this is going to be a TT start, I'll just get my partial refund and say forget it .... sort of the sissifying of the event. Maybe they can heat the lake up as well so no one feels cold either .... maybe we can have a group finish as well so everyone gets the same time and feels better.

Dave

IM KFC has been doing a TT start since day one and there has never been an issue. As long as they put the entry point a good 100-200 feet from the turn around re-entry for the second loop you will have a pretty smooth merging of traffic. The only downside is your finishers photo has a clock time that does not match your actual finish (chip) time.

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Dave Stark
dreamcatcher@astound.net
USAC & USAT level 2 certified coach

This would actually be very good if they also made it a single loop swim.

Is there even any data that TT starts improve survival outcomes? To me, a mass start is an integral part of the race and to move away from that would be very unfortunate.

Any particular reason(s) mentioned as to why? I think an IM loses its luster if it goes to a wave start. I did CdA in 2011 and it was a hard swim IMO and super cold. I'm not sure I would feel the same about an IM if it was a TT start.

Sounds like this is exactly what they are going to do, the entry point will be at the far west end of the beach. From what I hear, from someone who was at the IMCDA meeting last night where this was decided, all IM events are going to this "flow" start - I would think Kona would be an exception.

Correct. This bummed me out when I did Louisville.

The TT start is one of the reasons I won't do the race again. Just not a fun way to start the day. I want the mass start all at the same time.

Well, looks like I'm racing Challenge from now on.

Yeah, they've had problems filling Challenge Roth after introducing wave starts. I wonder how that race survives.

_____

I think this is a real mistake for IM races to go to a TT format .... no, there is no reason to expect that to be any safer ... just conjecture. Really does kill a lot of the intrigue of the ironman events.
I won't say I'll go to Challenge .... ultratriguy would choke on his brew if I said that !!! Challenge does have a TT start format .... at least for Penticton. Does start taking away the "special" event staus of IM events though.
I will drop out of IMCDA if its a TT start ..... just sucks too much! Still time to get into the Markleeville death ride event that same week :-)

Dave

If this is true, I am not happy about it.

Mass starts are part of the fun...

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Team Kiwami
Instagram

My understanding is that the waves will consist of about 100 people entering the water every 15 seconds. A large part of the reasoning is safety, it will make a thinner stream of swimmers so rescue can more easily spot people in trouble and to get to them.

Deathride is actually July 13, 2013, but I do feel your pain :)

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Team Kiwami
Instagram

Louisville had a fatality in 2011 with a TT start. I agree that a mass start is important to the race. Everyone should get their 17 hours and the clock should read my actual time when I finish.

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_____________________________________________________
Instagram | Team Kiwami North America

Why do you need a prior ironman for that process, a first timer with a swim background would be able to produce results indicative of a faster swim. I can show proof of a recent 1500 in 17:06 so that shoukd put me in the front corral.

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

RealAlbertan, I was going to elaborate more on the corral requests I've seen. I've never had to report a marathon time to make corral 1, just a recent race in the 10k to half marathon range.

I've done dozens of short course races, at least a dozen HIMs, and 5 IMs (all different) and IMCDA is the only race where I've had a panic attack in the swim. Although I made it out of the water and came back to a top ten AG finish, it was scary enough that I never had any intention of repeating that course. Notwithstanding the folks who think it's degrading the event, I would reconsider going back if they went to a TT wave start. As for tradition, Ironman did not traditionally have the mega starting fields they do today.

I found the main issue last year was that they wouldn't let the AG wave onto the beach until the last pro finished their first swim loop.

I remember looking at my watch at 6:51 and still standing in line in the transition, I think 2800 athletes had about 7-8 minutes to line them selves up for race start. This was an absolute cluster f**k!!!

Having not done an IM in 4 years I went the furthest you could go to the right (almost the last swimmer) and swam line of sight to the first buoy. I am not a fast swimmer, but OK for my AG (swam 1:02) starting at the right I didn't touch one person for 800m (first buoy) and got there in OK time, around 12 min and change.

The issues started after the first buoy but if I had of swam 5 meters wide instead of going in tight I would have been fine. The crowding issues weren't that much worse than other IM's I've raced.

The main issue I think for a lot of people was that due to the pro time start the AGers didn't have enough time to properly self seed themselves, they could solve this by bumping the pro start time back to 6 am,

My 2C
Maurice

so no swim cutoff then?

i'd wait to be last and have a day full of drafting! JK

Tim

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Tim

Houston verifies the data too for the corals.

.

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My Blog | Twitter | Big Pistachio Racing Team

Was it the mass start , lack of proper warmup, cold water that caused that?

I'm planning on swiming ~48 at Whistler so I know I'll be out ahead, if we have a TT start I'll have to get in early to avoid the crowd on lap 1 and lap 2 will be interesting.

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

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I'd also buy you a beer or three if you showed up in Penticton..

This year will be an interesting one for Challenge Penticton and I don't think it would be out of order to see two waves this year if the numbers are low enough..One wave for solos and one for teams....As for Ironman and these supposed swim changes,I can't say that I am surprised as they have had lots of bad press when it comes to thier swims in the last couple of years.

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Why aren't all Ironman distance events "in water" floating starts? eg: IMAZ, '10-'12 St. George
Doesn't this type of start help self-seed? Easiest and most non-combative swim of my life was 2010 IMSG. No contact whatsoever during the swim. (ended up 53:xx) However - when looking towards the beach after the start, it looked like half the participants were still on land freaking out about the cold temps.
I think this has me the most nervous about Tahoe. Not the elevation or temps, but the run-in swim start. Ankle spraining, cutting your foot on something from the bottom, being trampled...nightmares. Not a way to start a long day of racing. If I walk in, then I have to swim around/over all the runners and tall dudes. Seems like all the horror stories from IMCDA will be replayed at Tahoe.
However, the time trial start seems like the worst idea. The mass start is an awesome experience - if done while floating.

I believe I said that it's difficult to predict your time especially if you are not a swimmer doing your first IM. If you are a swimmer then it's easy-er :)

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__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."

Agreed. The lake is huge. No reason it is not a single loop swim. I live in Spokane and part of the reason I don't compete in this event is due to the horror stories I've heard about this swim (among other reasons). I am signed up for Whistler, however, so I'm sure I'll experience something like CDA during the swim up in BC.

I'm sure you could figure out a formula. My 5k PR is under an hour so I'm good.

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

What is your source for this?

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Gary Mc
Did I mention I did Kona

I am a MOP IM swimmer from a total field perspective -- better than MOP for my AG. I did get a decent warm-up at IMCDA but attribute my panic to a combination of the crowded beach start and placing myself too aggressively on the line-up. I was gunning for Kona and went out too hard. Subsequently, I have looked for IMs with in-water starts or smaller fields.

Slowtwitch the only place where people bitch about drafting and ask for wave starts then bitch about possible wave starts.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

I 100% agree. I will even go one step further and say they should have a competitive wave. Pro men, pro women, AG competitive wave, then AG waves.

Well everyone here is a good swimmer with impeccable judgement when on the bike. It's just all the other swimmers that get in the way, get into trouble or otherwise cause problems. Duh.

Reminds me of an old saying (which I've modified): The only thing ST'ers hate worse than change, is when things stay the same.

^^^ THIS

Perhaps you have not considered that not every STer has the same opinion.

What is the validity behind this rumor? Did someone associated with the event comment or is this just some 'friend of a friend who heard it from a guy' type of thing?

Extend the beach start width and we might not have a huge problem. I have done CDA in 2011/2012 and last year was far worse. Canada swim is nothing like CDA as the beach is very wide, replicate that. The beach in CDA is huge, take advantage of it. I understand there is the "pole", put orange padding around it and we are good to go. WTC is getting bad press so I would think all Ironman races will follow suit. We shall see

I would think you could find a group of people to stand around in their wetsuits and punch and kick you till you feel you have qualified for your 7th ironman medal.

This will be my first IM and I will say I was scared to get the s#it beat out of me at the start of the swim, but I was ready for it. This changes things, but doesn't make me any less excited to do the event.

Do those of you who do IMs all the time think people who finish Lou are any less of a finisher that those that do non-TT starts?

I've done both IMLou (1x) and IMCDA many many times. While I don't think any finisher of IMLou is less of an Ironman, I do think any time trial start is a less of a "race". In my simplistic mind, I like knowing someone in front of me is beating me and I'm beating anyone behind me. TT races just don't provide you with that type of scenario.

Point taken. I'm not good enough yet to be that competative. It might be a good idea to do it in age group waves for that exact reason. I guess we'll all see how it goes.

If they send off roughly 100 people every 15 seconds, like PrivateIdaho is suggesting, all competitors should be in the water within 7 minutes. And for many of the people that are truly "racing", they should be starting near the front, so maybe a 1-2 minute difference max?

I did the race last year, and like others have said, it was the only triathlon swim I've done where I ran into some panic issues. If this can alleviate those issues for a majority of the racers, I'm all for it.

_______

I do appreciate your humor :-). I've done many more than 7 ..... but I have never had anything beat out of me in an IM swim. Probably that's because I can seed myself well, am comfortable swimming with a group, and I'm comfortable with the events. I think people getting "beat up" is very over-exaggerated in most cases .... but some contact is just part of the sport.
I haven't done IMLou .... but I do look at the TT start as a lesser event and prefer the traditional mass start. Frankly, in shorter events I see far more people running into each other with their wave starts .... but also usually less experienced and in shape swimmers as well. I am still hopeful this is just a silly rumor ;-)

Dave

I've been in this awhile, and I've done starts in many different ways. However the race is started, it isn't going to change the way I feel about being a finisher. The only thing that changes how I feel about my finish is whether I put my best out on the race course or not. If I know I've sandbagged in any way, I don't feel good about my finish. If I gave it my all, my finish place and the race structure are irrelevant, I feel good about it.

I have done Louisville several times, and since I do try to be competitive (try being the operative term), I agree that no knowing where you are in relation to other people in your age group isn't ideal. That being said, the point of a distance like IM is to get the most out of yourself as an athlete, and it is a skill to not need outside influence to get the best out of yourself. The way to prevent kicking yourself after the race because you were nicked at the finish line by a few seconds in a TT start, is to push like you are next to someone in your age group. As long as you know you gave the best you have, you can't kick yourself later and blame the race structure.

I have found my CDA swim times to be slower than my other IMs, mostly b/c of course congestion. I'd like the chance to see what I'm capable of, if allowed to actually swim.

this is definitely true, from a business perspective, but it pains me to see them catering to a group that is arguably ill-prepared or flat out not at all prepared to swim the IM distance and yet flock to the race in droves anyway.

At any rate, that's my issue to deal with, not WTCs. I just hope they do things smartly and not have any of the clusters they've had before. It is sad to see the mass start go, and will make Kona all the more exciting for those of us who qualify.

tactically speaking, does it put an additional premium on swimming ability for those that "race" or does it neutralize the swim even more? I'd say less, because despite not knowing where your competition is, a weak swimmer/strong biker will have less of a hassle on the swim and enough people to leapfrog on the bike.

OTOH, if you can get yourself into a good swim group there will be none of the matches burned in the first 5min of the swim like before.

oh well.

Stover for the win!

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Joel | My Blog | Team Rev3 Tri | Twitter @TriMadness

Maybe Dev Paul will chime in, but we've talked about this many times here on ST coming up with new solutions.

the one I always advocate is a wave start, with Pros first, then all top amateurs, (the Kona Qual Wave), and then all others in a corral system.

Key points to note are that if the Kona wave is non-wetsuit, then there needs to be sufficient time between them and the next wave. Then, getting everyone in the water in 7minutes defeats the purpose. Need to spread it out WAY more to help with the volume on the bike course and drafting.

Only drawback is the magic 17hr thing... some people will be getting less or even more time. Which is fine, if you ask me... 15 hours seems plenty.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Americans are in for a rude shock if they race in Europe.
I know of a former iron distance race in Europe that closed the finish line at 14 hours.
100% of the field completed before the cutoff.
Raise expectations and people will rise to meet them I guess...

Don't have time to confirm, but all Euro WTC Ironman races are 16 hour limit.

This just makes too much sense for WTC to consider it. This is the best solution out there. I have said it before in previous posts as well.

It was a rumor prior to last night's IMCDA committee meeting. I know someone that was at the meeting and was posting to the IMCDA 2013 thread on iamtri as they made the decision "official".

Well put.

I'm doing my first IM at CDA.

It's a race, as long as everybody has to do the same thing - I could care less. That said I have gotten perverse pleasure from my most recent TT start at Lifetime (MN), (no wetsuit - yes!!!). coming in from the swim and seeing lotsa bikes still racked (they group your age group together so you can tell). Then, coming in for T2 to see how many are already there.

Give your best effort and let the cards fall where they may.

cheers

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I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________

i am a huge advocate if they are going to go down the path of no more mass starts then do wave.. not TT but I think you are opening a can of worms on the above waves. How do we determine top amateurs? Kona Qual Wave? there are first timers who will have a shot but aren't starting with the guys they need to be racing against, it just smacks of elitist.. Age group is about the only way they can go and make it men and women together for age groups.

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Kirk Noyes

Downtubes are for Dinosaurs

I agree, age group waves makes more sense than opening the can of worms "who is a potential KQ, and who isn't?".

Frankfurt has a pro start, a fast age group start then the rest of the age groupers. The fast age group starters (about 350) had to provide evidence of the capability to go under 10 hours. The Frankfurt cut-off is 15 hours after the age-group start.

Roth has a wave start based on expected finishing time. Roth has a 15.5 hour cutoff from the first regular wave. The regular waves are after Pro then Sub 9 finishers.

There was no less feeling of accomplishment in either event over Lake Placid or Florida. I tried to get to the finish line as fast as I could in all four races. In an Ironman, I am doing anything but racing those around me in 250th place in the US and 550th in Europe. I am trying my best not to slow down and get to the finish line. The money was made hours earlier.

Here is a responce from the RD back in mid December about my swim course inquiry. Sounds like things have changed since then if the TT start is true. I would suggest asking Mac himself.

"To address your question I have to respond in a couple of different ways. Yes you are correct that the swim is a congested time in the race and yes it is a hectic mass start. The venues and the swims for almost all full distance Ironman races are mass starts and all have some degree of congestion at the start and the corners, even one loop swims. Ironman CdA's swim has to be a two loop segment as the lake currents and depth limit the layout. We can't keep buoys in place with accuracy of distance with the currents at the depths in locations that would allow a one loop swim. We have changed the directions of swim, we have changed the angles in the corners, and we have expanded the start area over the years, all in hopes of changing the impact of 2500 athletes swimming together. We've even looked at a time trail start. But the simple truth is with 2500 athletes there is going to be some jockeying for position and congestion.

For 2012, I am planning on doing a couple of things different at the start.
Last year we only had one entrance to the start area on the east end closest to the buoy line. This year I plan to put the entrance in the center of the start area causing the population jam to either move left or right.
Hopefully that will result in the athletes being able to seat themselves a little easier and more evenly. The second option I am looking at is increasing the length of the second leg of the triangle in hopes of giving you more distance in the early stages to separate from the pack.

I would recommend not starting directly on the buoy line. Staying to the outside or right in a counter clockwise swim puts you on the outside of the turns. And the greatest population of swimmers is against the buoys. Even though you swim a little further on the outside you are not slowed in the corners, nor have to dealing with the traffic jams in the early stages of the race. Another aspect to consider is the time you enter the water.
Staying on shore just a little longer allows the athlete population to thin
out ahead of you. On the other hand, if you are a faster swimmer, starting
out front maybe your option of choice. But remember you have to maintain that speed or the population will catch you.

I hope I have provided some insight to you on our swim course. We get feedback on the race both negative and positive. Some of that feedback is based on the athlete's day/time and some are good observations. In either case we try to address the issues and would appreciate your input after your race. Oh by the way, please remember the water temps are usually in the low
60's and upper 50's."

Just noticed he meant to say "2013" in his email not "2012".

Well, whhat I'm really advocating for is a Category system like cycling. That's how you get into the Kona qual wave.

And we do have a governing body who ranks everybody... Shoud be easy.

Elitist? Not sure what you mean... That's very reductionist... But sometimes life isn't fair

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

This has me really bummed out. It is hard to race a race when you have no idea where your competition is. To me part of racing is trying to dig down to a place where you have never had to go. I know that people are going to chime in and say that you should just "do your best". That is great and I do but if that is all I wanted to do, I could go out solo on a set course a couple times a year and just try to set a PR. I like to race against other people.

I hate it when I race a half iron race and my wave is split. I can't tell if the person I am passing is actually still in front of me if they started after me.

They put your age on your leg for a reason- to be able to know when someone is in you AG.

This is an excellent idea.....

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I'm faster in Kilometers!
Wattie Ink Triathlon Team
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I'm with Eric on this one.

AG waves are fine, but if the intent is to keep the AG together, they won't work for IMCDA (or most other IMs for that matter) if the intent is to put 100 people in the water at a time. M3539, M4044 and M4549 each have in excess of 300+ starters per AG at IMCDA.

If the KQ wave smacks of elitist, then so be it, this is IM.

It's pretty easy to show a time/previous KQ to get in the KQ wave.

Any first timers that want in the KQ wave would most likely have a 70.3 time (and if not, a simple email to the race director with the appropriate results should do the job).

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Team Kiwami
Instagram

How about if they put your "wave" number on your leg. Competitor is wave 18 and you're wave 24, then you're actually ahead by 1.5 minutes when you pass him. I'm pretty sure that I can still subtract and divide by 4, even 10 hours into an Ironman ;-)

the only way the TT system would work is the marathon corral system, sorted by swim time and not overall triathlon time. Same as a marathon, show some results and get in the corral or congo line or whatever.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
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“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Actually the lake is too deep to do a single loop

Except that he could be behind me yet still beating me. In which case I would never see him to know that I was being passed.

I agree with this. Show some results of prior swim times, and get seeded in a corral with others of your ability.

So in a large age group where you have 300 to 400 sprinkled like pepper within 2700 people, then coming out of the water after an hour plus, You know where your compitition is? Really? If you mean to qualify then you have to know where 7-10 people are after the swim in all that. You really think you know where they are on the course most of the time?

300-400 is reasonable for a wave start.

If they do waves, and I think they should, they should start each AG together. It's not hard, other races do it just fine. This preserves the integrity of competing head to head in your Ag for KQ spots.

Start everyone M&F 60-65 2 min after the pro's, start everyone 66+ 2min after that then 2min 50-59 M 2min 50-59F, then 10-15 min before starting the young guns.

You get 15 or 16 hours from the last wave start to complete.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Kenney, it's all totally foolish. The best way? Start everybody at once and fastest wins. But (as it would seem) I guess WTC doesn't like that way, so hence the outlandish suggestions. No need to understand them. All we really need to do is design the system we want, not put band aids on the one we don't want.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

I think we over-estimate any advantage of knowing where your AG competition is in an Ironman.

this is also a good way. I'd put more time between waves to prevent screw ups, at least in North America. This is not a Swiss watch. Allow for swim warm-ups and you're set. 15 hours is plenty to finish an IM. Or, start pros at 6am. Also, add a just happy to be here participant wave at the end.

6:00 male pro
6:05 lady pro
6:10 really old folks, physically challenged
6:15 big chunk of not quite so old, but still
6:30 young guns in 5min intervals of 4-500 per wave
7:00 done

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Well the problem all goes down to people not being properly prepared for an ow swim. Examples like last year at St. George are a prime example. If they have have bad weather, chop and in water over their head it becomes a mess

and now we're talking culture and $$, which is really the root of the issue. Most people absolutely have no business in a triathlon, let alone an IM, but that's not going to change.

Brett Sutton had a good tweet about how triathlon should be for the healthy and fit but instead it's been for the hyper-intense, Type A obsessive look at me types. He might be right, but I know which one of those groups I'd generalize to have more money to spend on the sport and I bet WTC does too.

bottom line, if you want good competition, start cycling. Races every weekend, strategy and tactics at all levels, local, cheap, cash prizes for almost all the podium guys, and above all the Category system.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

You don't even have to go to the Half or IM distance.
A few years ago at a race in tempe they said no wet suits. people were crying b/c they weren't sure they could do the sprint with out a wet suit. Before the first buoy 200m into the 600m swim people were breast stroking, back stroking hanging on canoes.

I've seen this same problem at other races in the 400-800m range. it's not IM specific.

but when you add waves, wind, chop a race that is right at head level easily becomes over their heads.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

you know, you might be on to something. IM is no wetsuit, no breast stroking, no canoe. Instead of lifeguards, you have guys that hit you with oars if you slow down or stop. IOT get on the bike, where the race "really" starts, you have to do the swim course, kind of like gates at a ski area which put the super-huge hits behind some palmares proving prerequisite hits.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

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Lets just put the swim last with no boaters to help ;-) but no $ that way

Isn't this actually a BIGGER problem at the shorter distances.

You get a lot more first timers, and a lot more middle aged, middle managers, with a big middle.... oh wait that is me.... at sprints than at an IM.

You are so right.......forgot last year at our local 800yrd sprint tri, the water was to warm for wetsuits. When announced no suits poeple had such a fit and everyone kept complaining until suits were allowed. ..........................Last year I said in a thread that to be safe in an over your head water where weather conditions could be bad that someone should be at least able to swim a stand alone 100yrd 2:00 minute in perfect conditions (pool) and was crucified.

I don't know about this race, but if you have to choose between time trial starts and deep water mass starts I'm going to argue deep water is safer.

You have mandatory warmup vs having everyone running into the water in large groups 15 seconds apart? Yea that is going to keep the heart rate from spiking.

I like your idea of reversed wave start but It would be very prudent to do a timing analysis to see where the wave conflicts/passing occurs. I'm not entirely sure where you would want to have the majority of the passing happen... lap two of the swim, T1, first 20k of the bike?

I prefer your semi-elitist idea with the following modification:
Pro Start (separate M&F)
KQ start (maybe this costs extra to prevent people from self seeding up (if you qualify the cost goes to Kona entry, else the funds go to charity or pro purse or something) and requires proof of prior near-qualifiable time)
Competitor start (this group wants to race but not vie for a KQ slot, no rolldowns)
Participator start (this group just wants to complete the event with time be damned)

If you buy a finishers photo...for 5 bucks the company will fix your finish time. $5/($650 entry fee + $30 race photo) = approximately zero. The 5 dollars was worth it to me.

It's more from a lifeguarding standpoint.....someone who needs help can *potentially receive it faster.

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I'm faster in Kilometers!
Wattie Ink Triathlon Team
Powered by Accelerate 3

Fine, strap us all with special HRM's and panic buttons so that if we have a heart "event" or hit the button our swim cap starts blinking red.

I mean, isn't it mostly about visibility then?

Many people use spotters on the course to know where they are. I haven't ever had this luxury, but if you read many of the race reports people actually know approximately where they are relative to the other competitors in their AG. Additionally whether you are competing for first or fiftieth it still is nice to know.

Then congrats to you that you are fast enough to be a qualifier for it to matter with so many out there.
With all the other IM's you have done did it matter or keep you from qualifing?

Or, you could just use wave starts as lots of other races do and have been proven to work just fine and not resort to ridiculous slippery slope arguments.

btw, if you could invent a practical blinky red swim cap to alert lifeguards to a problem....you'd probably make a fortune.

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I'm faster in Kilometers!
Wattie Ink Triathlon Team
Powered by Accelerate 3

This thread is wacky on a number of levels.

1. To the OP point. I would be disappointed if they moved to a TT start. TT starts are wacky.
2. People are coming up with ideas that are completely out of this world and unneeded. HIM start in waves and it does fine. Everyone coming up with corals and using marathons as an analogy is wacky. Hello, Ironman already has a process for swim waves!
3. I am pretty certain ST brought this problem on ourselves, inadvertently as it may have been. The complaints about swim starts and deaths is exactly the reason why they are doing this, and now we think it is crazy? Wacky

While I think mas swim starts are great and add to the allure of an IM event, it certainly wouldn't be the end of the world if they used Waves to get people started. Heck, it could actually help. Why do you think they let the pros off before the AG'ers?

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"i�m the one guy who says don�t force the stupid people to be quiet � i want to know who the morons are." -- mark cuban

I actually like this because it spreads out the start and more importantly reduces congestion and ultimately DRAFTING!! Think all IM races especially those that are not hilly should have wave starts!! Some of the drafting seen in IM Florida is almost a JOKE!

:) Very true! Z

When people die things change. I would miss the mass start but it would be easier for medical personnel to get to a person in trouble. If someone was in the middle of the mess that last year was, no way the could be rescued without possibly hurting someone else.

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http://www.TriScottsdale.org

Best answer. This would be the best result.

They didn't offer that option in 2008 when I did it. Pretty nice of them to offer it now though.

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Dave Stark
dreamcatcher@astound.net
USAC & USAT level 2 certified coach

I've heard from a reliable source that CDA is definitely going to a TT type start with the main reason being safety of participants. As athletes we may not like the idea, but as fathers, mothers, siblings, sons, and daughters, I think we can probably understand it. Few of us make a living at this and most of us go back to work at some point the week after the race. Even as I write this I still don't love the idea, but if WTC can reduce fatalities in the water, you have to give them credit for wanting to make the change.

However, in my opinion (and I don't know how they are going send people off), AG needs to be kept together so you know who you are racing and where you are in relation to them as far as qualifying slots go. Self seeding leads to people not seeding themselves appropriately and makes it tough to "race". That was one of my biggest problems with IM Louisville. Going off toward the end of the line, I didn't like the fact that someone next to me could have started 40 minutes before me or 2 minutes after me. Racing is more than just physical; it is about tactics as well.

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_____________________________________________________
Instagram | Team Kiwami North America

I'm doing CdA and I have to admit that I enjoy the TT start and am happy that CdA is implementing it. Less stress, safer, and more enjoyable start to a long day. Much better than racing that first 200-300 meters.

As for not being able to know where my competition is in order to "race" them, I can't think of a single Ironman where I was racing anything other than the course itself. But that's just me.

Until there is data that a time trial start actually improves outcomes, moving to TT starts for "safety" is doing something just to say you did it. There have been deaths at IM Louisville, IM New York, and the NYC Triathlon that are all time trial starts.

x2.

There have been deaths in wave starts also. I'm not sure if there are data to correlate the level of danger to any types of starts.

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__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."

Mass start, wave start, TT start. I'm fine with whatever. That being said, it wouldn't be the end of the world if IMTX was switched to a wave or TT start. The Lake Woodlands swim start is too small for everyone at once, not to mention the canal section.

Maybe IM swim starts should/could be determined by the course? Factors being size of lake, depth, shoreline contour, etc.

Just a thought.

As deaths are such a rare event, it will be quite a while before reliable data can show much. However, starting 2000 at one time versus 400 people per minute seems like a common sense approach to reducing the chances of a rare event. Nobody is claiming that it will prevent deaths. You can crash on your bike riding solo but I don't need a lot of data to indicate that riding in a group increases the chances of crashes.

On a different note, I would bet the farm that this thing goes smoothly. Getting 100 people in the water every 15 seconds sounds like trying to herd cats. I think it would be tough to get 100 people to cross a timing mat in 15 seconds (sometimes it would be 75 and others it would be 200). I'm signed up for IMCDA and like the idea but I am preparing for some giant screw up on race morning. I just hope I don't have to stand in line for 30 min waiting for my wave to go.

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That's sort of the deal anymore .... just make some unsubstantiated claim that safety will be improved and everyone nods like bobblehead dolls. So where is that data??? One might also say that IMCDA made the swim worse recently by compressing starters onto a narrower beach .... also supposedly for improved observation of participants for "safety". We all know how that worked out.... including participants who felt they were getting beat up because they didn't have room to swim with adequate space. Those that already wanted a TT start will be happy .... most will feel differently.

Dave

However, in my opinion (and I don't know how they are going send people off), AG needs to be kept together so you know who you are racing and where you are in relation to them as far as qualifying slots go. Self seeding leads to people not seeding themselves appropriately and makes it tough to "race". That was one of my biggest problems with IM Louisville. Going off toward the end of the line, I didn't like the fact that someone next to me could have started 40 minutes before me or 2 minutes after me. Racing is more than just physical; it is about tactics as well.

Personally, I am not a fan of this. However, with races growing, in size, I see the need for this, to at least be looked at from a safety and logistics stand-point. Starting 2500 -3000 people in a one wave mass start with a huge mix of abilities from serious veteran competitors to those doing their first triathlon(true), poses some moderately serious risks.

You have to wonder, where the tipping point is from when these events start to go from races, to tours or sportifs. In fact we may have already gone past that point.

Again, personally, I still have my head( but not my body) in the game of racing these things. I would not be a fan of essentially having an all-day time-trail and not having any idea of where my competition was or where I was at.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

opinions seem pretty well spread out here. for the people who like a change away from the mass start, what is the preference: TT or wave? and should WTC stick with the existing cut-offs or adjust them as well?

Personally, I think the tour de ironman tipping point happened a number of years ago.
Something like mass start at 6:30 with 12 hour time limit (pros, kona/podium) and the rest at 7:00, TT start with midnight cutoff would solve a lot of issues. Maybe some exceptions for 60+ crowd.

For 100 bucks they'll put any time you want on it! I went 8:46 at IMMT last year!! Bragging rights forever, baby!! LOL

Funniest part of this thread... is that there is even a debate.

Challenge Family has had wave starts for a decade.
It's not a big deal, it's easy to implement (start wave based on expected finish time), and it just makes sense.

I started talking tri with an old bastard at a ski race a couple weeks ago, went something like this:
OB: "Wave starts suck!"
ME: "Why?"
OB: "They just do, we should all start together, it's tradition!!"
ME: "Challenge does it, no-one seems to mind there."
OB: "Challenge is not an official M-Dot Ironman. The brand matters!"
ME: "Ironman was not created as a brand, that came many years later. It was a bet by a bunch of people who wanted to do something different. Ironman is a race distance."
OB: "Whatever! You don't know where your competition is in the race"
ME: (thinking to myself) I race at the FOP. I race against myself. I don't know my AG finish until I see the results. This old bastard would be lucky to make the 17 hour cutoff... so what's it matter to him!?

*sigh*

I wonder if your source has been to see the swim at IMAZ which is basically a 1 lap 3,000 person fist-fight in the water. Much more congested and dangerous than CDA. When I asked about steps to address the safety issues I got crickets back from WTC. I would be very surprised if they altered the CDA swim without also address the safety at other venues.

/

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Gary Mc
Did I mention I did Kona

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Really???? ..... I guess I must have done a different race than you. I've done it many times as a contestant, observer, and med tent staff .... seems like quite an over-exaggeration! Its biggest issue is dirty water limiting visibility and lots of new competitors.
Just saying something is safety related doesn't make it true;-)

Dave

Most Ironman branded races have congested swims, which is a safety issue. That's very true. Just saying!

Wave makes the most sense. I posted on this thread what I think is the most logical way to do it. I based that on a few races I've done where they started it that way.

It allows the older Ag's to get onto and off the course faster, allows those same groups to have 15-25 mins before they get swam over, allows the younger AG's some clean racing space until they catch the tail end of the waves 15 min ahead, reduces packs (in theory), preserves head to head racing in the AG.

There will be some points early in the race where the older & younger AG's will mix but the velocity differences are usually enough that it thins quickly.

Ultimately by the end of the bike the tail end of the field is closer to the front of the field vs the mass start way. Depending upon how compressed it could reduce permitting costs allowing roads to open sooner.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

+1000

This just moves the safety issue to the bike instead of the swim.

Why not just have people put a projected finish time at rego and start that way?
If your fast enough for a KQ you'll be starting at the same time as your AG competition anyways.
Having younger people crash through the older slower AG'ers makes zero sense.
I've done races like that. Great in theory, but not in practice.

I've done several races like this as well, worked great in practice so I'm sticking with the theory.

No one is crashing through, nice hyperbole though.

When you look at mass start races, do you really think it's any less safe compared to 100 people exiting T1 in < :90?


You will be starting around the same time as your competitors, not at the same time. Maybe your running in 1st on the road but you could be in 9th place actually.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Don't care.... because I'm not paying a lot of money to swim 2.4 miles in a glacier-fed Idaho lake in June. Brrrrr. I can HTFU better than most. I swim in high 50s F water all the time. But low to mid 50s? For, at my swim pace, over an hour? Forget it.

While I prefer the mass start format, I could understand wave starts for venues with "dangerous" swim conditions. It would be key for potential KQ athletes, or anyone interested in competing to start together. It would be lame to have no clue where you stand amongst the people near by. Just not as fun.

How does knowing where you are currently placed in your AG affect your race?
Do you advise your athletes to make sure they know where they are placed in their AG throughout the day?

If you're looking to KQ and the guy in front of you is in your age group with a mile to go, I'm sure it would affect you strategy.

Ok. I see what your saying. Fair enough.

My strategy has always been, race my own race in an Ironman. But I'm biased as I don't really care about KQ.

Hey you can swim in high 40's up here. Cda sounds tropical.

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

The next poster is going to say they swim in the high 30's. ;)

You must have a nice wetsuit. The coldest I've swam is the mid-50's and I had a wetsuit-type swim cap and I'll never do it again. I can still feel that shocking cold water on my head.

Having done IMAZ in '11 I will agree with you on your swim comments. That was brutal. I will say I raced IMSG six months later and lined up on the outside and wasn't touched by another human. Unfortunately the wind did more damage to me than any Ironman swim mob could have done. Realistically, the difference was 1500 vs 3000 swimmers.

Actually my wetsuit is cut on the calves and forearms for quicker exits and better feel for the water. I do wear a neoprene cap in colder lakes. I rarely train OW and when I do I skip the wetsuit if I can usually 18C+ (65ish +) I ve swam in pools that were sub 70 F at meets.

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

I've swam a half-iron in 54 degree temps.. and jellyfish.
Was probably the most unpleasant swim of my life.
I was numb for the first 90min on the bike.
I can't imagine 2.4 miles of that without booties, cap.. maybe some sort of embrocation?

Except this is about $$, not safety. The herd has spoken.... The swim is scary, it puts people off, and as we all know, most IMs are 70% full of first timers.

It's a branding and lifestyle thing, not a competition or safety thing

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

If you are going for a KQ spot or an AG win/placing knowing where you are at in your Ag can make a big difference. If you are 5k from the finish and some dude pulls onto your shoulder you know what you have to do. but if it's a TT style start you don't know if he's 5 behind or 5 ahead. Part of racing is making those tactical decisions. If you don't know where anyone is, why call it a race. You might as well call it a charity ride.


As a matter of fact I do recommend that athletes be aware of where they are at if being competitive/racing for an AG spot is what they are there to do.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

this is exactly right. this makes it much tougher to figure out where you are in relation to the field. last year at CDA i knew where i was placed in the AG and i new what i need to do(or not do) for a slot.
having any sort of spotter on course is not going to be helpful at all unless WTC somehow has instant updates on splits online.

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Fruit snacks are for winners

They could have score boards after the timing mats.

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

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....and we have a winner!!


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Here's an idea:
What if the idea of stopping mass starts is so they can increase the number of entries?
They had pretty much maxed out the swim start area.

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A possibility.Maybe they think they can have 5,000 people in each Nth American M-Dot like they have in Roth.Just wait for the announcement of teams in Ironman for 2014..........just before they announce that WTC is for sale.

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That would be a logical conclusion .... certainly there is no evidence that a time trial start is any safer than a mass start in preventing swim fatalities. Invoking "swim safety" as a ploy to increase numbers of participants through a different start system would be clever and profitable while playing to peoples fears. We probably need to avoid conspiracy theories as that becomes counterproductive .... but we ought to have some solid facts to guide us before we make fundamental changes to a popular event.

Dave

Oh no, I hadn't thought of teams for IM. I can let mass starts go without losing the magic of the race, but the idea of anything less than an individual effort, I can't.

I don't come to slowtwitch for a few days, and this is what I'm greeted with?

I'm going to go kick the shit out of a treadmill so I feel better.

Anything new come out on this?

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"i�m the one guy who says don�t force the stupid people to be quiet � i want to know who the morons are." -- mark cuban

There are some articles in the CDA press from late February about it

I think they could make a mass start safer by seeding people correctly. Like have a 1km race on the Thursday and you get a different "starting pen" based on your time. Or you submit a time from a qualifying 70.3 or sanctioned open water race. Half the reason for panic at mass starts are the half wits who line up at the front and then swim 1.5 hours. If everyone starts among people with similar speeds, it will be a lot smoother.
And for IMCdA specifically they should also make it one lap.

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Are you ready to do an Ultraman? | How I calculate Ironman race fueling | Strength Training for Athletes |

Not sure what announcement is being referred to but according to this e-mail response the flow start is a done deal for IMCDA.


Thanks for reaching out. My apologies about the delay, I wanted to make sure we had all the facts before responding to your inquiry. As you may have seen, we announced a new SwimSmart initiative focused on improving athlete satisfaction and reducing anxiety during the swim portion of the race.

The 2013 IRONMAN Coeur d�Alene will feature a rolling start. Athletes will enter the water in a continuous stream through a controlled access point, similar to how running road races are started. An athlete�s times will start when they cross timing mats under the swim arch.

Athletes will be directed to self-seed on race morning based on their projected swim time. Volunteers and staff will be in the staging area with signs and will assist with this process. Self-seeding will not be mandatory but will be encouraged. All athletes will have access to a dedicated warm-up area in the water located adjacent to the swim start.

Age-group athletes will begin entering the water at 6:35 a.m. for IRONMAN Coeur d�Alene and will have the 2 hours and 20 minutes from the time the last athlete enters the water to complete the swim. An athlete�s time does not begin until he or she crosses the timing mat located below the swim arch. All athletes are expected to start by 7:00 a.m., thus keeping all other timelines and cutoffs the same. This will ensure that all participants have at least the full 17 hours (subject to intermediate cutoffs) to complete the event.

Please do not hesitate to contact me with any additional questions, have a great day!
Best,

April Dickerson
Coordinator, Athlete Services
World Triathlon Corporation
2701 N. Rocky Point Dr. Suite 1250, Tampa FL 33615

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Sponsored By Jack and Adams Bicycles
Austin, TX
http://www.jackandadams.com

Wow, that is really unfortunate in my opinion. I'm now really thinking Ironman has jumped the shark. This is no longer a race, but an event. They still have a major communication problem as a Google search and an Ironman.com search yields no results for SwimSmart and the FAQ's on IMCDA's site still says there is a mass start.
Edit: I stand corrected, the FAQ no longer mentions the mass start. Last week it did.

What a joke. The "self seeding" is undoubtedly going to be an mess. People going to the front who belong in the back, causing people to be swimming over each other. Things self-select perfectly fine in a mass start.

I never would have registered for CDA if I knew they were going to make this change and wouldn't sign up for another WTC event if they make it universal. At least go to wave starts based on past times if they don't want a mass start

I support this completely. The mass start is an absolute mess. The Time Trial start at Ironman Louisville, and I imagine this will be like that but with people seeded based on projected time and not how early they get in line, is what is best for competitors.

You can view this much like US public education system, water it down to the lowest common denominator for all those that sign up for ironman distance race and cannot swim, let alone do a mass start. It is only here where we change the sport to accommodate that. Sad.

"most IMs are 70% full of first timers" Where did you get this information?

I've been to every IM event in North America for the past 11 years. Not once has the first time athlete % been over 40%.

Z

totally agree!! Sounds great.

I know you're doing CdA... thoughts on strategy for when to start?

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

I hope to be one of the first into the water. But if I were an MOP swimmer I would seed myself accordingly and just relax. People who've never done a TT start like Louisville have no idea how great that start is, and how well it sets you up for the entire day. The mass start is a nightmare and makes me fear for my life.

A fairly simple solution to improve this is to do exactly what large running races do. Everyone gets a chip time but awards are based on gun time. This way many people can wait a few minutes before entering the scrum without worring about their time being affected. There will always be enough room in the water to mini-mass start the few hundred people looking for a kona slot or whatever other reason they have to be up front. Everyone then knows where they are competitively.

Once we get in the water it'll be much much better than years past, but the cluster on race morning before we get in the water is a concern. Its usually a mess anyway just to get all the athletes on the beach, now we have to incorporate a smaller area to get through to actually start the race. It'll be a mess, but pretty sweet once we actually start swimming.

How is this any different than a mass start? I spent the first 20 mins of IMAZ trying to swim past/over/around people who lined up at the front of the floating swim start. They had no place being up front.

The only difference i see now is that your chip time doesn't start until you cross the mat. At least the less confident swimmers can wait a little longer in the back with no penalty to their ending time.

thing is I really don't want to be standing in line (or have a proxy do it) from 3am onwards. Althought I'm guessing "self-seeding" means something like walking up to the front of the line, asking somebody what time they swim, and then saying "move back, Jack, I'm faster than you".

Also, a late swim start = more people to slingshot on the bike and perhaps draft in the water if you're a good sighter.

But having said that, I'm with you... I hope to swim a little over an hour and would like to have it done without a lot of people climbing all over me. Also, if they have a heat wave like 2006 or whenever, it will be nice to be done early.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

"Athletes will be directed to self-seed on race morning based on their projected swim time. Volunteers and staff will be in the staging area with signs and will assist with this process."

I assume the athletes will be responsible and seed themselves accordingly. I envision being able to go to the right "pen" or staging area not too long before entering the water. I guess we'll find out.

I think the way it should really work is number everyone alphabetically by age group, youngest to oldest. If you have race number 1355 you stand in the 1355th place in line. If you have number 100, you are 100th. if your number is 2998, that's is where you stand. Makes it dead easy. Sleep in and show up as late as possible.

+2

2500+ racers in a mass start has got to the point where it has changed the nature of the race from enjoyable to I want to survive. Having done IM's since 1995 I find each year I dread the swim more and more as the number of participants increase. I liked IMLOU and have hated IMAZ the last two years with 2800 racers.

I have no problem with entering the water 45 minutes later than the 1st racer, if I knew that's when my chip started.

It would be nice if you could run/ride across a matt and see what place you were in within your AG. Sort of like the old Ford inspiration sign, instead it would have your number followed by where you are within your AG. Seems like easy technology and they could have a few signs along the course.

Not sure how the revised swim start at IMCDA will impact packs and drafting. Hopefully it will spread out the crowds some

It will be a lot less fun to watch for the spectators that's for sure. This will be my first IM and I'm glad they are trying to reduce the level of anxiety and deaths during the swim. We asked for solutions when deaths happen and now here is what WTC is doing about it. I'm a confident swimmer but at the end of the day I want to have an enjoyable safe race.

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Instagram or twitter me softly @xatefrogg

I have sent Ironman my thoughts and copied them here below:

If this is true it is an absolute outrage in my opinion on many levels.
1)Fairness- If you are going to make changes this significant to the event, then you should do it with enough notice so that we can respond with our entry. I entered this race almost a year ago and have no real choice now whether this is something I want to participate in. Make your change for the 2014 race and see how differently the race fills up.
2)Communication- There has been no official advertisement as of yet of this new format. I happen to notice that I have on my calendar that May 9th is the last day I can withdraw for a partial refund. I don't want to be a conspiracy theorist, but it you officially announce after this date then it leaves the taste in my mouth that you are being more business savvy than athlete centric.
3) "Safety concerns"- The drum beat that brings ignorant people aboard only. The facts of the matter though is that swimming is dangerous and the time trial starts in New York and Louisville last year yielded deaths. Time trial trial starts are no safer that mass starts. The whole "anxiety" angle is something you shouldn't need to worry about, there are therapists for that.
4)Target Market- I understand clearly that I may be on the competitive end of your customer spectrum and you don't necessarily put your business model behind types like me. I see this as an 'event' now and not a 'race'. The idea of an Ironman being run in this fashion has eroded my desire to take part in these 'events'. I have done 20+ Ironmans and don't really like the direction you are taking things with changes such as these. Your product should be a difficult, nearly impossible "race" like the one that started the whole thing in Hawaii, not some watered down version designed to appeal to the masses that have anxiety problems.

"Age-group athletes will begin entering the water at 6:35 a.m. for IRONMAN Coeur d�Alene and will have the 2 hours and 20 minutes from the time the last athlete enters the water to complete the swim. An athlete�s time does not begin until he or she crosses the timing mat located below the swim arch. All athletes are expected to start by 7:00 a.m., thus keeping all other timelines and cutoffs the same. This will ensure that all participants have at least the full 17 hours (subject to intermediate cutoffs) to complete the event."

Based on the above, if I was a swimmer in danger of not making the swim cutoff time, I would try to start the swim as close to the front as possible. That way, I could have longer than the 2 hour 20 minutes to complete the swim. I can't wait to get my Mdot tatoo!

Whoa easy there! They have races that are nearly impossible and there have been threads to that effect on ST. But, Ironman is not an impossible race. It a long day where for a vast majority of participants "racing" the "event" will surely lead to a very bad result. I get that folks such as yourself will hate a change like this, but there is no magic to being beat about the body for an hour or so while starting what will be a long day. This will be my 3rd IMCDA and 4th IM overall and I welcome this change as a way to make the 56 deg water more bearable for those of us not at the pointy end of the spear like you. Perhaps Norseman or Swissman would be more appropriate for your liking?

OK fine. I get that and respect that there are more reasons people do these 'events' than the reason I do them. Point #1 still stands tall. At least let me vote with my feet.

Do you honestly think the race will not still sell out with a seeded start?

Hint, it will. People will bitch and moan that it cheapens the day and yet, when active goes online the feeding frenzy will commence.

I am a strong sub hour IM swimmer and I am doing Canada. I am fine with a mass start. Did IMAZ twice. I am fine with a seeded start. Honestly, I've done enough tris where I started wave 20 of 23, I have no problem swimming by and around slower swimmers. With a 2 loop swim in Canada, I'm going to be swimming by and through folks whether mass or seeded.

I do like Dev's idea though. mmmmm, sleeping in.....

I don't care if it sells out or not, I want the opportunity to decide for myself. Also, I want to race under the premise that the clock started at the same tome for all of us. It really has nothing to do with swimming in my mind. Maybe because I don't experience all that "anxiety" they are trying to remedy.

That is exactly what people do at IM LOU, slow swimmers crowd the front of the line at about 4AM so they have an extra 30 minutes to breast stroke the swim.

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Dave Stark
dreamcatcher@astound.net
USAC & USAT level 2 certified coach

This. I've done Louisville twice and Wisconsin once. The Louisville start is so much easier. WI was full contact for 80% of the swim.

There have been multiple deaths in time trial start events. I have not seen any evidence that time trial starts actually improve outcomes. WTC is doing "something" just so they can say they did.

I've done both mass and time trial starts and I find being rushed into the water for the time trial much more uncomfortable. Being able to manage a mass or even wave start is also an integral part of the sport imo

Managing a mass start with 1000 swimmers, yes, this has always been a part of the sport going back to the mid 80's and I don't have a beef with wanting those.

Managing a mass start in a narrow start area with 3000 people, that's not part of the sport. That's just something stupid that materialized in the recent past. Good riddance if WTC is going to NUKE mass starts with 3000 people. They created it and they should remove it. It has no place in the sport.

good idea stick the guys swimming 90:00+ in front of the guy who can swim 50:00 without breaking a sweat... I prefer an online seed system and bibs are determined by pre seeded swim times.

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

Back in 2006 IMNZ was changed from a tri to a du, and they ended up starting the bike with amateurs leaving every 30 seconds and pros 1 or 2 min apart. I didn't bother starting that year, but drank all my supporters beer to drown my sorrows. Yes boys and girls, TriDork was drunk by 11am.

While I prefer a mass start, so you can know that the first across the line is the winner, at least staggered starts may go some way to dealing with the drafting problem on the bike. The first 10-50km on the bike is invariably full of drafting infractions (whether they get caught or punished is inconsequential in this argument) and even 'pure' athletes doing their utmost to NOT draft, will impinge on the rules, through no fault of their own, simply because there are so many athletes in the same place at the same time, coming out of the swim. Simple math shows that it's arguably impossible for most riders to ride 100% clean.

While a TT start would help to solve drafting, even tho I hate drafting cheats more than I hate Satan himself, I think I'd prefer mass starts for my races.

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

I think the best approach as I mentioned above, is to simply give people numbers like they do now. Ascending 1-3000 by age group, alphabetically. Then just get in the spot in the line based on your actual number, and go. The 50+ minute guys will have plenty of room to do the passing. Don't worry about that. Also having guys start in sequence inside their age group means you are closer in time to the guys that matter. And if it is a guy with a lower number than you, you know it is a "hard pass" and if you it is a guy with a higher number, you just look at the delta between numbers and you know the time. Let's say you pass a guy with a number 100 higher than you, then you know this guy is still virtually 100x2 seconds up the road from you (with 2 being the inter athlete interval). You won't know who behind you is virtually up the road from you, but even in multiple age group wave starts (like three waves in 35-39 in big events) you don't know anyway and you have to push right to the finish line.

The Louisville start is so much easier. WI was full contact for 80% of the swim.[/quote]
If you want easy then keep doing Louisville. I think it's too bad we now need to make all Ironman starts "easy".

Totally agree. If it's a TT start you can forget about people relative to you on the course and the only thing you care about is going as fast as you are able. I'm sure most people who just want to complete the Ironman like the idea of a TT start, but for those racing for a Kona slot I think it's more beneficial as a mass start. I would support a TT start for the general populous, but I think it would be awesome to have a mass start for those wishing to compete for a Kona slot or AG awards.

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I see you point, but I would rather not swim a wide line avoiding traffic.

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

Awesome, guess I'll pull out my old classic:

"If you aren't going to swim fast move, or I will swim over you and you won't like that."


Unfortunate, but better then a first come first serve TT start.

Now if they pull, slow people first shit, I will flip out.

OK 1:15/100 metres over here.

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

Some people might say the same thing about having to run around you, but they do go wide and don't complain. It is not that tough to go around a person of different speed. It really won't change your finish time.

Depends on how dense the packs are. I guess will cross that bridge when I come to it, Whistler still says its a mass start, but I don't believe those generic FAQ s.

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

You should have nothing more than clumps of 2-5 people at a time to pass. It should be a none issue. In the end even if the buoy is 12 m away, if you go 5 m wide you only swim 13 meters, but the reality is that you'll almost never have to cut such an extreme angle. It's going to be more like going 3 m wide while the buoy is still 100m away. This is going to be no different than catching people in the wave in front of you and steering wide so you don't clobber them. If you can have enough respect for others to do that in a wave start swim, you can do it in a TT start swim. If you are one of the guys who has limited respect for others and likes to swim over their backs, then I'd imagine that you'll end up doing the same. We can't help people who behave that way in either wave or TT starts.

But if it is not acceptable to slam into someone's back while running, then we should probably apply the same common sense and mutual respect in the water.

Dev

It is most likely to protect themselves against a charge that mass starts make it too difficult for safety personnel to spot problems. This is being driven purely by dollars, no realistic safety risks.

As triathlon has evolved from a sport to a lifestyle event, this sort of horseshit is inevitable.

The only time I have ever run anyone over in OW has been idiots who are swimming the wrong direction and come in at 90 degree angle. It happens more than one would think.

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

Guess I've raced my 5th & last IMCDA I want a race not a TT.

Seriously...from when is Ironman really a race? Even for the top pros it is an event of attrition and he who survives by slowing down less than the rest. In the end, an Ironman does turn into a TT on the run and it SHOULD be a TT on the bike (and of course, no one on ST drafts, so it already is a TT on the bike)

All you guys worrying about head to head racing need to take a step back for second.

There is no head to head racing in an Ironman anyway if you're not a draft master and trying to race clean. The guys wanting to race head to head are typically the ones CREATING the draft packs out of T2 because you won't do your own race and end up chasing every fast woman who passes you. Next thing you know, there are 50 guys drafting the fast girl that passed them. Stick to your own race like Rapp. The guy did a complete ITT in Kona and still finished in the top 15. Sure, in his race, it would have been advantageous to get into the pro legal group, but there is a massive difference between the men pro "pack" and the Ironman Florida pelotons.

This move for a TT start should help clean things out after T2. All you guys wanting head to head racing can race head to head with your Garmin Edge "3 second power number" rather than the guy or girl passing you. At least that's what we preach on every ST power thread, so let's try it and forget about the other guy (or girl). Maybe we'll all be shocked by how much better we do anyway, when we stop worrying about what the others are doing.

Dev

If I wanted to race against my power meter then I would stay at home and ride my trainer.

I've never done a time trial start but can see some advantages. I agree with Dev that you should have to start by race number (assigned by age group). While not 100%, it at least maintains the "race" concept within your age group. I can see potential problems with self seeding. Basically, lots of people will seed themselves strategically rather than by realistic swim time estimates. Example: 1 - fast swimmer has to ride virtually alone, so a disadvantage to go first. Better to self seed other than at the front. 2 - slower swimmer but uber biker would self seed at the front to be as close as possible to the front on the bike. 3 - Less competive athletes could seed themselves towards the front to give additional time to meet cut-offs. All that said, the majority wouldnt really think of these things. Can't see this working at all on 2 loop courses like Lake Placid, which is one of the most congested swim starts. Other courses like the old IMC, I wouldnt see any need for a change because there's lots of space and congestion isn't a problem. Of course the time trial start may help spread out the field and reduce drafting on the bike, which would be a welcome fringe benefit.

No system is perfect, but there are lots of issues with the mass starts too. I'd be happy to give it a try.

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MAO Elite Team
http://www.markallenonline.com

You're doing CdA too? We'll be two of the first in the water, I can be very persuasive.

People arguing that this takes the race element away are silly. Ironman is like golf-you aren't playing your partner, you're playing the course.

Now Olympic Distance, that's Match Play ;^)

If you want easy then keep doing Louisville. I think it's too bad we now need to make all Ironman starts "easy".[/quote]
IMMT this year.

x2.

With that, it should be possible to close the thread!

I say they have a timing mat and force them through a chute (single file) when they come out of the water. If it reads longer than 2:20, you tell them they can't continue.

Yeah I'll be there :)

In all honesty I don't have that big of a problem with it, it simply drives me nuts that I can't reliably determine my position in the race as I'm racing. Granted I'm not going for a Kona slot, so no big deal there, I just like to know how I'm stacking up against others on the day.

Anyone that thinks IM can't be race never raced near the front of the M40-44ag. Every single guy there knows the capabilities of the other and are dog fighting each other the whole race. It is that thrilling element that I enjoy and without it the luster of the "event" is gone. If you want to race the course or yourself save your money and do an Ironman in your neighborhood.

I don't care what the hardcore few say, this is a great move for the other 90%. I have a swimming background and avoid IM's because of the mass start. Just not worth it to get kicked in the face repeatedly, because the sport started a certain way. The sport has gotten larger. I applaud the WTC for evolving like every other sport in the world... I am sure people thought face masks took away from footballs origins at first. I can assure you I will sign up for more events because of a TT start... Can't wait for everybody to bash me and all me a P$&&y. I have had two reconstructive shoulder surgeries from my college football days and have nightmares of my race day being ended early due to the mass start.

Why are you getting repeatedly kicked in the face during the swim? Why haven't I experienced that? Shouldn't you figure out ways to deal with your swim start anxiety without having to effect the whole race? Honest questions, not trying to be a dick.

Dev,
I assume you mean T1?

Also, I agree about Louisville. That should be the model for all future IMs. They just need to work out the little issues like people getting in line at 4am. They have done a good job the last 2 years of not letting friends/family hold your spot.

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

Looking at the different models that WTC is going to, the mass start, but self-seeded corrals for Florida and Tahoe seems like a great idea. Even having waves like for IMMT would be fine as you'd still know where everyone in your age group is on course. The water temperature rules and warmups seem perfectly reasonable as well.

I'll never be a fan of TT starts and I wish they had made this public before I signed up and dropped a ton of money on IMCDA.

_____

I asked for my refund even though its only $150 ..... I would have never signed up if I'd known beforehand. At least I'm not dropping all the other money for lodging/ transportation/ meals. I'm just a mediocre swimmer but I've never had the problems in mass starts that a few claim they have .... seems like just a sissifying of the IM events as there is no evidence that TT starts are any safer. Most of us who have done the IMCDA event many times know the non-safe issue was constricting down the beach start area the past few years. I won't be back to CDA again.

Dave

The real front of the M40-44 is more like guys like Macca, Cam Brown, Oscar Galindez and Crowie and in the past Tom Evans (now he is front of M45-49). You guys have a twisted opinion about what "front really is".

No, I have done plenty of racing in my life at the "front" of age groups, it is still a bogus discussion because in the end, Ironman is a race of attrition. As I said above, look at what Rapp does. He races his race and gets the results. All you guys "racing" each other early are just creating draft packs anyway and in the end, most end up self detonating with sub optimal races!

Dev

Sorry Dev, you are wrong. As an example 2013 Imcda. Chad Jarrett spent All day working his ass off to catch Tom Evans. I spent all day chasing my buddy Jonathan Coffen. Art Sosa rode and ran his guts out to catch up to me at the last half mile. Look at the results to see how it played out. It was a race in the truest sense of mano un mano. I realize we are all not dog figjting like this but it is still a shame that the anxiety others have will shape the event. Ironman would be a hell of a lot easier if they would just shorten it. Let's all start writing letters.

I'm a huge fan of Rapp, but if you look at his recent results - missing the race has definitely hurt him.

Your statement is a classic example of a straw man. You're really not at the front, so you must not be racing.

BtW, I would love to try to race Macca, Crowie et al. The problem is that they puss out and enter as pros so they can have that stupid mass start.

Don't get me wrong....I love racing head to head. But the racing head to head crowd is truly a tiny minority out of 3000. We're talking less than 50 people. Everyone else goes into some type of race against themselves and the course. I know what you are saying about Rapp and I agree that missing the swim train hurt him in the context of the Kona field, but even for those guys the bike pack is legal. Most of the age group bike packs are not legal so anything to break up the pack is a good thing.

If you are that good, you guys can still race head to head in Kona. At your qualifier, it's going to be TTing like you are in a 140.6 solo breakaway...everyone gets to race like Lieto or Tom Evans for that matter riding their pace with a big X on their back :-)