"most IMs are 70% full of first timers" Where did you get this information?

I've been to every IM event in North America for the past 11 years. Not once has the first time athlete % been over 40%.

Z

totally agree!! Sounds great.

I know you're doing CdA... thoughts on strategy for when to start?

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

I hope to be one of the first into the water. But if I were an MOP swimmer I would seed myself accordingly and just relax. People who've never done a TT start like Louisville have no idea how great that start is, and how well it sets you up for the entire day. The mass start is a nightmare and makes me fear for my life.

A fairly simple solution to improve this is to do exactly what large running races do. Everyone gets a chip time but awards are based on gun time. This way many people can wait a few minutes before entering the scrum without worring about their time being affected. There will always be enough room in the water to mini-mass start the few hundred people looking for a kona slot or whatever other reason they have to be up front. Everyone then knows where they are competitively.

Once we get in the water it'll be much much better than years past, but the cluster on race morning before we get in the water is a concern. Its usually a mess anyway just to get all the athletes on the beach, now we have to incorporate a smaller area to get through to actually start the race. It'll be a mess, but pretty sweet once we actually start swimming.

How is this any different than a mass start? I spent the first 20 mins of IMAZ trying to swim past/over/around people who lined up at the front of the floating swim start. They had no place being up front.

The only difference i see now is that your chip time doesn't start until you cross the mat. At least the less confident swimmers can wait a little longer in the back with no penalty to their ending time.

thing is I really don't want to be standing in line (or have a proxy do it) from 3am onwards. Althought I'm guessing "self-seeding" means something like walking up to the front of the line, asking somebody what time they swim, and then saying "move back, Jack, I'm faster than you".

Also, a late swim start = more people to slingshot on the bike and perhaps draft in the water if you're a good sighter.

But having said that, I'm with you... I hope to swim a little over an hour and would like to have it done without a lot of people climbing all over me. Also, if they have a heat wave like 2006 or whenever, it will be nice to be done early.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

"Athletes will be directed to self-seed on race morning based on their projected swim time. Volunteers and staff will be in the staging area with signs and will assist with this process."

I assume the athletes will be responsible and seed themselves accordingly. I envision being able to go to the right "pen" or staging area not too long before entering the water. I guess we'll find out.

I think the way it should really work is number everyone alphabetically by age group, youngest to oldest. If you have race number 1355 you stand in the 1355th place in line. If you have number 100, you are 100th. if your number is 2998, that's is where you stand. Makes it dead easy. Sleep in and show up as late as possible.

+2

2500+ racers in a mass start has got to the point where it has changed the nature of the race from enjoyable to I want to survive. Having done IM's since 1995 I find each year I dread the swim more and more as the number of participants increase. I liked IMLOU and have hated IMAZ the last two years with 2800 racers.

I have no problem with entering the water 45 minutes later than the 1st racer, if I knew that's when my chip started.

It would be nice if you could run/ride across a matt and see what place you were in within your AG. Sort of like the old Ford inspiration sign, instead it would have your number followed by where you are within your AG. Seems like easy technology and they could have a few signs along the course.

Not sure how the revised swim start at IMCDA will impact packs and drafting. Hopefully it will spread out the crowds some

It will be a lot less fun to watch for the spectators that's for sure. This will be my first IM and I'm glad they are trying to reduce the level of anxiety and deaths during the swim. We asked for solutions when deaths happen and now here is what WTC is doing about it. I'm a confident swimmer but at the end of the day I want to have an enjoyable safe race.

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Instagram or twitter me softly @xatefrogg

I have sent Ironman my thoughts and copied them here below:

If this is true it is an absolute outrage in my opinion on many levels.
1)Fairness- If you are going to make changes this significant to the event, then you should do it with enough notice so that we can respond with our entry. I entered this race almost a year ago and have no real choice now whether this is something I want to participate in. Make your change for the 2014 race and see how differently the race fills up.
2)Communication- There has been no official advertisement as of yet of this new format. I happen to notice that I have on my calendar that May 9th is the last day I can withdraw for a partial refund. I don't want to be a conspiracy theorist, but it you officially announce after this date then it leaves the taste in my mouth that you are being more business savvy than athlete centric.
3) "Safety concerns"- The drum beat that brings ignorant people aboard only. The facts of the matter though is that swimming is dangerous and the time trial starts in New York and Louisville last year yielded deaths. Time trial trial starts are no safer that mass starts. The whole "anxiety" angle is something you shouldn't need to worry about, there are therapists for that.
4)Target Market- I understand clearly that I may be on the competitive end of your customer spectrum and you don't necessarily put your business model behind types like me. I see this as an 'event' now and not a 'race'. The idea of an Ironman being run in this fashion has eroded my desire to take part in these 'events'. I have done 20+ Ironmans and don't really like the direction you are taking things with changes such as these. Your product should be a difficult, nearly impossible "race" like the one that started the whole thing in Hawaii, not some watered down version designed to appeal to the masses that have anxiety problems.

"Age-group athletes will begin entering the water at 6:35 a.m. for IRONMAN Coeur d�Alene and will have the 2 hours and 20 minutes from the time the last athlete enters the water to complete the swim. An athlete�s time does not begin until he or she crosses the timing mat located below the swim arch. All athletes are expected to start by 7:00 a.m., thus keeping all other timelines and cutoffs the same. This will ensure that all participants have at least the full 17 hours (subject to intermediate cutoffs) to complete the event."

Based on the above, if I was a swimmer in danger of not making the swim cutoff time, I would try to start the swim as close to the front as possible. That way, I could have longer than the 2 hour 20 minutes to complete the swim. I can't wait to get my Mdot tatoo!

Whoa easy there! They have races that are nearly impossible and there have been threads to that effect on ST. But, Ironman is not an impossible race. It a long day where for a vast majority of participants "racing" the "event" will surely lead to a very bad result. I get that folks such as yourself will hate a change like this, but there is no magic to being beat about the body for an hour or so while starting what will be a long day. This will be my 3rd IMCDA and 4th IM overall and I welcome this change as a way to make the 56 deg water more bearable for those of us not at the pointy end of the spear like you. Perhaps Norseman or Swissman would be more appropriate for your liking?

OK fine. I get that and respect that there are more reasons people do these 'events' than the reason I do them. Point #1 still stands tall. At least let me vote with my feet.

Do you honestly think the race will not still sell out with a seeded start?

Hint, it will. People will bitch and moan that it cheapens the day and yet, when active goes online the feeding frenzy will commence.

I am a strong sub hour IM swimmer and I am doing Canada. I am fine with a mass start. Did IMAZ twice. I am fine with a seeded start. Honestly, I've done enough tris where I started wave 20 of 23, I have no problem swimming by and around slower swimmers. With a 2 loop swim in Canada, I'm going to be swimming by and through folks whether mass or seeded.

I do like Dev's idea though. mmmmm, sleeping in.....

I don't care if it sells out or not, I want the opportunity to decide for myself. Also, I want to race under the premise that the clock started at the same tome for all of us. It really has nothing to do with swimming in my mind. Maybe because I don't experience all that "anxiety" they are trying to remedy.

That is exactly what people do at IM LOU, slow swimmers crowd the front of the line at about 4AM so they have an extra 30 minutes to breast stroke the swim.

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Dave Stark
dreamcatcher@astound.net
USAC & USAT level 2 certified coach

This. I've done Louisville twice and Wisconsin once. The Louisville start is so much easier. WI was full contact for 80% of the swim.

There have been multiple deaths in time trial start events. I have not seen any evidence that time trial starts actually improve outcomes. WTC is doing "something" just so they can say they did.

I've done both mass and time trial starts and I find being rushed into the water for the time trial much more uncomfortable. Being able to manage a mass or even wave start is also an integral part of the sport imo

Managing a mass start with 1000 swimmers, yes, this has always been a part of the sport going back to the mid 80's and I don't have a beef with wanting those.

Managing a mass start in a narrow start area with 3000 people, that's not part of the sport. That's just something stupid that materialized in the recent past. Good riddance if WTC is going to NUKE mass starts with 3000 people. They created it and they should remove it. It has no place in the sport.

good idea stick the guys swimming 90:00+ in front of the guy who can swim 50:00 without breaking a sweat... I prefer an online seed system and bibs are determined by pre seeded swim times.

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2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

Back in 2006 IMNZ was changed from a tri to a du, and they ended up starting the bike with amateurs leaving every 30 seconds and pros 1 or 2 min apart. I didn't bother starting that year, but drank all my supporters beer to drown my sorrows. Yes boys and girls, TriDork was drunk by 11am.

While I prefer a mass start, so you can know that the first across the line is the winner, at least staggered starts may go some way to dealing with the drafting problem on the bike. The first 10-50km on the bike is invariably full of drafting infractions (whether they get caught or punished is inconsequential in this argument) and even 'pure' athletes doing their utmost to NOT draft, will impinge on the rules, through no fault of their own, simply because there are so many athletes in the same place at the same time, coming out of the swim. Simple math shows that it's arguably impossible for most riders to ride 100% clean.

While a TT start would help to solve drafting, even tho I hate drafting cheats more than I hate Satan himself, I think I'd prefer mass starts for my races.

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

I think the best approach as I mentioned above, is to simply give people numbers like they do now. Ascending 1-3000 by age group, alphabetically. Then just get in the spot in the line based on your actual number, and go. The 50+ minute guys will have plenty of room to do the passing. Don't worry about that. Also having guys start in sequence inside their age group means you are closer in time to the guys that matter. And if it is a guy with a lower number than you, you know it is a "hard pass" and if you it is a guy with a higher number, you just look at the delta between numbers and you know the time. Let's say you pass a guy with a number 100 higher than you, then you know this guy is still virtually 100x2 seconds up the road from you (with 2 being the inter athlete interval). You won't know who behind you is virtually up the road from you, but even in multiple age group wave starts (like three waves in 35-39 in big events) you don't know anyway and you have to push right to the finish line.