When people die things change. I would miss the mass start but it would be easier for medical personnel to get to a person in trouble. If someone was in the middle of the mess that last year was, no way the could be rescued without possibly hurting someone else.

---

http://www.TriScottsdale.org

Best answer. This would be the best result.

They didn't offer that option in 2008 when I did it. Pretty nice of them to offer it now though.

---

Dave Stark
dreamcatcher@astound.net
USAC & USAT level 2 certified coach

I've heard from a reliable source that CDA is definitely going to a TT type start with the main reason being safety of participants. As athletes we may not like the idea, but as fathers, mothers, siblings, sons, and daughters, I think we can probably understand it. Few of us make a living at this and most of us go back to work at some point the week after the race. Even as I write this I still don't love the idea, but if WTC can reduce fatalities in the water, you have to give them credit for wanting to make the change.

However, in my opinion (and I don't know how they are going send people off), AG needs to be kept together so you know who you are racing and where you are in relation to them as far as qualifying slots go. Self seeding leads to people not seeding themselves appropriately and makes it tough to "race". That was one of my biggest problems with IM Louisville. Going off toward the end of the line, I didn't like the fact that someone next to me could have started 40 minutes before me or 2 minutes after me. Racing is more than just physical; it is about tactics as well.

---

_____________________________________________________
Instagram | Team Kiwami North America

I'm doing CdA and I have to admit that I enjoy the TT start and am happy that CdA is implementing it. Less stress, safer, and more enjoyable start to a long day. Much better than racing that first 200-300 meters.

As for not being able to know where my competition is in order to "race" them, I can't think of a single Ironman where I was racing anything other than the course itself. But that's just me.

Until there is data that a time trial start actually improves outcomes, moving to TT starts for "safety" is doing something just to say you did it. There have been deaths at IM Louisville, IM New York, and the NYC Triathlon that are all time trial starts.

x2.

There have been deaths in wave starts also. I'm not sure if there are data to correlate the level of danger to any types of starts.

---

__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."

Mass start, wave start, TT start. I'm fine with whatever. That being said, it wouldn't be the end of the world if IMTX was switched to a wave or TT start. The Lake Woodlands swim start is too small for everyone at once, not to mention the canal section.

Maybe IM swim starts should/could be determined by the course? Factors being size of lake, depth, shoreline contour, etc.

Just a thought.

As deaths are such a rare event, it will be quite a while before reliable data can show much. However, starting 2000 at one time versus 400 people per minute seems like a common sense approach to reducing the chances of a rare event. Nobody is claiming that it will prevent deaths. You can crash on your bike riding solo but I don't need a lot of data to indicate that riding in a group increases the chances of crashes.

On a different note, I would bet the farm that this thing goes smoothly. Getting 100 people in the water every 15 seconds sounds like trying to herd cats. I think it would be tough to get 100 people to cross a timing mat in 15 seconds (sometimes it would be 75 and others it would be 200). I'm signed up for IMCDA and like the idea but I am preparing for some giant screw up on race morning. I just hope I don't have to stand in line for 30 min waiting for my wave to go.

________

That's sort of the deal anymore .... just make some unsubstantiated claim that safety will be improved and everyone nods like bobblehead dolls. So where is that data??? One might also say that IMCDA made the swim worse recently by compressing starters onto a narrower beach .... also supposedly for improved observation of participants for "safety". We all know how that worked out.... including participants who felt they were getting beat up because they didn't have room to swim with adequate space. Those that already wanted a TT start will be happy .... most will feel differently.

Dave

However, in my opinion (and I don't know how they are going send people off), AG needs to be kept together so you know who you are racing and where you are in relation to them as far as qualifying slots go. Self seeding leads to people not seeding themselves appropriately and makes it tough to "race". That was one of my biggest problems with IM Louisville. Going off toward the end of the line, I didn't like the fact that someone next to me could have started 40 minutes before me or 2 minutes after me. Racing is more than just physical; it is about tactics as well.

Personally, I am not a fan of this. However, with races growing, in size, I see the need for this, to at least be looked at from a safety and logistics stand-point. Starting 2500 -3000 people in a one wave mass start with a huge mix of abilities from serious veteran competitors to those doing their first triathlon(true), poses some moderately serious risks.

You have to wonder, where the tipping point is from when these events start to go from races, to tours or sportifs. In fact we may have already gone past that point.

Again, personally, I still have my head( but not my body) in the game of racing these things. I would not be a fan of essentially having an all-day time-trail and not having any idea of where my competition was or where I was at.

---

---

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

opinions seem pretty well spread out here. for the people who like a change away from the mass start, what is the preference: TT or wave? and should WTC stick with the existing cut-offs or adjust them as well?

Personally, I think the tour de ironman tipping point happened a number of years ago.
Something like mass start at 6:30 with 12 hour time limit (pros, kona/podium) and the rest at 7:00, TT start with midnight cutoff would solve a lot of issues. Maybe some exceptions for 60+ crowd.

For 100 bucks they'll put any time you want on it! I went 8:46 at IMMT last year!! Bragging rights forever, baby!! LOL

Funniest part of this thread... is that there is even a debate.

Challenge Family has had wave starts for a decade.
It's not a big deal, it's easy to implement (start wave based on expected finish time), and it just makes sense.

I started talking tri with an old bastard at a ski race a couple weeks ago, went something like this:
OB: "Wave starts suck!"
ME: "Why?"
OB: "They just do, we should all start together, it's tradition!!"
ME: "Challenge does it, no-one seems to mind there."
OB: "Challenge is not an official M-Dot Ironman. The brand matters!"
ME: "Ironman was not created as a brand, that came many years later. It was a bet by a bunch of people who wanted to do something different. Ironman is a race distance."
OB: "Whatever! You don't know where your competition is in the race"
ME: (thinking to myself) I race at the FOP. I race against myself. I don't know my AG finish until I see the results. This old bastard would be lucky to make the 17 hour cutoff... so what's it matter to him!?

*sigh*

I wonder if your source has been to see the swim at IMAZ which is basically a 1 lap 3,000 person fist-fight in the water. Much more congested and dangerous than CDA. When I asked about steps to address the safety issues I got crickets back from WTC. I would be very surprised if they altered the CDA swim without also address the safety at other venues.

/

---

Gary Mc
Did I mention I did Kona

______

Really???? ..... I guess I must have done a different race than you. I've done it many times as a contestant, observer, and med tent staff .... seems like quite an over-exaggeration! Its biggest issue is dirty water limiting visibility and lots of new competitors.
Just saying something is safety related doesn't make it true;-)

Dave

Most Ironman branded races have congested swims, which is a safety issue. That's very true. Just saying!

Wave makes the most sense. I posted on this thread what I think is the most logical way to do it. I based that on a few races I've done where they started it that way.

It allows the older Ag's to get onto and off the course faster, allows those same groups to have 15-25 mins before they get swam over, allows the younger AG's some clean racing space until they catch the tail end of the waves 15 min ahead, reduces packs (in theory), preserves head to head racing in the AG.

There will be some points early in the race where the older & younger AG's will mix but the velocity differences are usually enough that it thins quickly.

Ultimately by the end of the bike the tail end of the field is closer to the front of the field vs the mass start way. Depending upon how compressed it could reduce permitting costs allowing roads to open sooner.

---

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

+1000

This just moves the safety issue to the bike instead of the swim.

Why not just have people put a projected finish time at rego and start that way?
If your fast enough for a KQ you'll be starting at the same time as your AG competition anyways.
Having younger people crash through the older slower AG'ers makes zero sense.
I've done races like that. Great in theory, but not in practice.

I've done several races like this as well, worked great in practice so I'm sticking with the theory.

No one is crashing through, nice hyperbole though.

When you look at mass start races, do you really think it's any less safe compared to 100 people exiting T1 in < :90?


You will be starting around the same time as your competitors, not at the same time. Maybe your running in 1st on the road but you could be in 9th place actually.

---

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Don't care.... because I'm not paying a lot of money to swim 2.4 miles in a glacier-fed Idaho lake in June. Brrrrr. I can HTFU better than most. I swim in high 50s F water all the time. But low to mid 50s? For, at my swim pace, over an hour? Forget it.

While I prefer the mass start format, I could understand wave starts for venues with "dangerous" swim conditions. It would be key for potential KQ athletes, or anyone interested in competing to start together. It would be lame to have no clue where you stand amongst the people near by. Just not as fun.

How does knowing where you are currently placed in your AG affect your race?
Do you advise your athletes to make sure they know where they are placed in their AG throughout the day?