Hmmm, let's see...

More than one female pro go off course at IM AZ because they don't know the course -

More than one pro has been involved in bike/car accidents at IM LP.

Without hearing all of the details, it's kinda tough to accurately measure what the causes are.

True - it's just that I'm sure we're all hoping that the first one-o-one event goes without a hitch.

First off, I don't have any kind of vested interest in the different race organizations being talked about. I also know that every new race doesn't want anything unusual to happen, but no matter how hard you try, sometimes things do. If its something you have control over, you fix it the next time - if its not, you let it slide.

What I was disagreeing with was:

- the comment that huge volunteer groups guarantee issues won't happen - things can and still do happen

- road closures, good signage, good traffic control may have been in place

I've volunteered at Ironmans, and at mini-sprints. No organization will have an event go off without any hitches, and IMNA events are no different. You just try to make sure nothing big that you have control over goes wrong, minimize the smaller oops that are fixable, and adapt to the things that are outside of your control.

I'd agree...Nothing's perfect, especially first-year events. And, there are quite a few things out of your control, unfortunately. Traffic can be controlled, but even police can't control everything out on a course. It's never 100%. It's also more difficult with a first year race, where the Police have no prior experience with bike/traffic control. It's a new ballgame for them as well, remember. The RD can make sure every intersection/dangerous area is staffed by Police, but the quality of the traffic control varies widely depending on the officer manning the spot. Most just aren't used to bikes going by at 25 mph.

Having athletes going off course and athletes being hit by cars are the two of the greatest fears of a RD.

I know from our perspective, we see a ton of things behind the scenes that we'll fix. We just want to avoid the catastrophic issues mentioned above.

I'd caution anyone against assuming the event wasn't well organized....not enough info available....

"the comment that huge volunteer groups guarantee issues won't happen - things can and still do happen"

I think that many people learned that lesson the year of the forest fires in Penticton at IMC. The IMC race organization is absolutly one of the best in the business - every possible detail is gone over and covered, but what happens when you have wild forest fires raging in the area that not only pose a danger to the race it self, but also pull half of your volunteers away to help fight the fires! Then what? I could not believe that there where actually athletes in Penticton that year grumbling about the race. It's a miracle that their was even a race that year! Few people know this, but as of Friday night, there was going to be no race, but some how with a massive 24 hour, all-out effort in the part of NAS and the on-the-ground IMC staff and a shredded volunteer force, they managed to have a race on Sunday.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Exactly - and unfortunately that is what this new series must live up to in order to be considerred a "success." It's a tough act to follow - they need to be perfect in every way. IM races are superbly run, as are the 70.3 races...the 70.3's took off as wildly popular events right away, partly because of the name, and partly because you know what you're going to get - a great race experience. There are also a lot of IM's and 70.3's, making it tough to schedule around if you're another race promoter. To make it tougher on the One-O-One guys, most of us had already committed to an IM a year in advance...we couldn't race their event even if we wanted to.

One-O-One is a fantastic idea, and I love the venues. I hope they grow and prosper, and I can't wait to do Halifax next year. Unfortunately, they're taking on a marketing maching that puts on a highly polished race experience. The marketing power, and the great race experience they offer is a tough to compete against, and you see it with the registration numbers. In order to gain ground, participants are going to have to come away from this with the same "wow" factor that they get from an IM or 70.3. Hopefully they do.

Someone compared this to Wildflower 20 years ago, and how it started off small. It's not the same climate. There are a TON of options to a racer right now, and somehow One-O-One has to steal away customers if it's going to remain as a viable product...and I would think they have to do it quick. Let's not let the SlowTwitch world cloud our judgement...140 participants is a dismal, pathetic show of support. This is BAD news for the series. Slowtwitch word of mouth will not keep this series alive - it has to be the triathlon general public, most of which have never heard of One-O-One. I also believe that if most of them choose to do a long course event, it will by default be an IM or 70.3. You have to compete with them somehow.

So, how do they build this? Unfortunately, stories of an athlete being hit by a car don't help the cause. They have to get the word out. They have to get huge word of mouth in the mainstream, not on ST. They have to get big media coverage. They have to have the big guns show up and race. They have to market heavily. In effect, they have to be better than their competitors if they'r going to draw away customers. A One-O-One race has no tradition (e.g. Wildflower), and it has no name (e.g. IM)...somehow it's got to build this up, but with only 140 at the first race, how do you do this? The hardcore won't keep it alive.

Again, can't wait to do one next year. Hopefully it's still there.

Geargrinder -

While I don't know how much race staff cross over there is, but HFP racing (who Shannon Kurek works for/owns/whatever), puts on a large number of races. In my experience their races and NAS races are equal in quality - bad things happen at every race.

How about tacks on the road at Ironman Wisconsin? A farmer driving his tractor down the road? I could go on, needless to say you can't blame what can't be controlled.

Edit: Actually want my best example - Did a race in Lake Geneva a few years ago (not a Dobbs race), where a biker was hit by a car. Guess who hit the biker? A triathlete who had just finished the race and was wanting to get going.

I wish them the best, but they have some very tough challenges:

1. As you mentioned, the races that they must compete against and be compared to are superbly run.

2. My sense is the race calendar is getting a bit crowded - for both the AG ranks and the pros. Look at this weekend alone there is the 101 race, Wildflower, St Croix, the Napa 1/2 plus countless other smaller races going on all across N.A. Time was, the ONLY event this weekend was Wildflower!

3. I think the total pool of sponsorship support, be it in the form of cash or product support is a lot smaller than people think. Selling these sponsorships is a HUGE challenge. Typically and historically the best ones have been when there are significant inside connections i.e. the VP of Sales of companyX is also a triathlete.

4. Competition for the marketing dollars and reasouces is very deep and fierce.

5. So is the challenge of getting media attention. In this day and age, you pretty much have to make your own noise and somehow try and get it self published( witness 101's alliance with Slowtwitch), promoted and written about.

The good news is that the ranks of triathletes taking part in the sport continues to grow. I am duely impressed by my recent travels through the U.S. talking to many dealers and them telling me that business is up significantly, and more than a few shops are considering expanding either expanding their existing space or opening a second location. Tip: The women's market is key. Particularly getting the many, many women who have doen try-a-Tri's, the Danskin races or other short events and getting them to go longer.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

My whole point isn't to blame or to say it wasn't well run - perhaps I stated that poorly. I'm merely commenting on what they need to have happen in order to succeed. They need to be great, because that's the current standard out there.

I guess in terms of success you could say that the fewer problems there are in the inaugural event, the better your publicity, and the better chance this race becomes a "must do." Odds are that some dude reading about the race will also read about one of the lead women being hit by a car and breaking her jaw. That's not good PR.

140 people is a tiny field. Not small, but tiny. In effect, this is a big series with an entry smaller than most small town, grass roots triathlons. 140 is small enough that you would expect things to go smoothly. You have to admit that in a field of 140, having one of the top men go off course, and having one of the top females get hit by a car, don't exactly make for good publicity. That's an awefully small field to have had problems like this...what would have happened in a field of 1000? Are they ready for those numbers? Can they safely host more racers?

I'm not blaming, I'm just asking. When the registration numbers were small a few months ago, everyone here said "don't worry, they'll be bigger by race day." Well, that didn't happen. Now there are a few instances that raise valid concerns, and the response is "yeah, but people have been known to get hit by cars or go off course in IM events too." Yes, but those events host 2500 athletes and 10,000 spectators. Considerring the numbers are so high, it's only their superb organization that prevents more accidents.

Again, I look forward to Halifax next year, if it's around, and I hope the series succeeds. But, in all reality their registration numbers are pathetic and their safety record is already blemished, after only one race. I think it's valid to ask if this series will be around next year, and if they are ready to safely handle increased numbers. We're not talking about IM, or 70.3, or HFP or Wildflower. At 140 participants, we're talking about a tiny, tiny triathlon - it might be harder to find a smaller one - and it wouldn't be the first one to go out of business.

<< At 140 participants, we're talking about a tiny, tiny triathlon - it might be harder to find a smaller one >>

I've done LOTS of smaller ones. There's an awesome local race called SOS that's capped at 150.
Both Harriman HIM's have had that # or less for the first 2 years (although when you include the competitors in the Mini event, it has grown quite a bit year over year, so hopefully that trend will continue).
Today there was a local Du that had its biggest turnout ever, and I'm sure it was still probably <200 total.

Many first-year events start off small, since folks already have likely registered for other pre-existing events (many of which sell out ridiculously fast these days), and therefore couldn't fit this into their sked, even if they wanted to.

You want tiny? The first year of American Zofingen there were 17 starters, and 10 finishers for LC.
It's my honest belief that this race will become a major must-do event in time, given the venue and challenge.
But you've gotta start somewhere. Kudos to the RD for taking on that challenge.

I doubt Timberman or Tupper Lake or Eagleman or (insert any big, famous event) had massive participation the first year, or first several years. Those are all now regarded as among the best run events anywhere.

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float , hammer , and jog

[reply]
...you can be sure that will the huge volunteer teams, this wouldn't have happened. Anyone who's ever volunteered at an Ironman knows that there is someone at practically every corner and every intersection, guiding the athletes. [/reply]

There were two police officers at the intersection where I made my three wrong turns. I'm not sure the guys at HFPOneOOne could have done more in terms of manning an intersection. This was not the result of poor staffing, just bad luck.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

It's happened at Lifetime Fitness Triathlon to a couple pros as well...and also when cops were the only ones at the intersection.

There is a state law in Florida that says you can't close a road for a race. I know in years past IMNA has illegally closed one of the roads for IMF, and every year they cross their fingers hoping all will be forgiven. This past year it wasn't closed.

Having Police at an intersection is no assurance that nothing will go wrong. I have been directed off course while leading a race by a cop at an intersection in the past! My sense is that the Police are there to control car traffic, which is what their expetise is and I am glad they are their to do that. Having intimate knowledge of the actual course and helping athletes with directions is not high on their responsibility list.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Timberman sold out the first year...Granted, we had a cap of 800 total athletes. BUT, as others have mentioned, the climate is MUCH different than it was a few years ago, when it was started. There was ONE other Half Iron in New England at the time.... There are a TON of races, now. There are more triathletes, but not enough to have all of these new races with entrants of 500 or more.

So, IMO, there will be significant contraction with races. I can't imagine putting on a longcourse race with 300 people, much less 150. It's just too cost-prohibitive. While it seems the sport is hitting it's heyday, there are still too many races coming onboard. And, most of them look like they're trying to compete with longterm, well-established races....

Yes, this weekend there was St. Croix (1980's), Wildflower, and Tri One O One. Both St. Croix and Wildflower are pretty well established, I think:)


Another example is TX...We added 2 races in TX this year, as we saw a big need, with only Buffalo Springs, PrairieMan, and IronStar on the calendar, and no early season Halfs....So, after we announce our races, there are 4 new HIMs and Long Courses added to the slate, with 101 coming onboard too. Now there are like 9 longcourse events in TX alone. I personally don't think this is sustainable....

Tri One O One is a good idea, but on a national basis (and that's the way they have to think), it's competing with some big muthas.....And, with a big budget and expectations, they need big #'s I'd say.

The other part of the equation is the communities races are in. For most of the communities to buy into the whole thing, they've got to see significant bonuses for them....lots of money spent, hotels booked, etc to make it worth closing down streets and inconveniencing they locals...If your race isn't big, it doesn't generate much money for a community. But, the inconveniences still remain. Things get shaky then, especially if you sell an area on bigtime economic impact. Easier to sell the first year, not so easy the second when there are 150 athletes participating the first year.....

I don't know anyone else's gameplans/future plans, but it's a tough environment now. I wish everyone the best of luck, but rolling out another longcourse series that competes with the MDOT and 70.3 (as well as Halfmax) is a hard nut to crack.....That's not sour grapes, just reality.

Can it be done? I've always remained rather doubtful. This was even before 101 was announced....

Ok, back to your regularly scheduled programming....:)

Kevin,

Well thought out and written post. Indeed, not sour-grapes, but it will be seen as this coming from you, it's just the reality of the current situation.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

It is indeed the reality of the situation. The race calendar is all of a sudden saturated with long course "big events", and a lot of them are of high quality. Had I wanted a good "destination" long course event this weekend, I could have done WildFlower or St. Croix or Napa...all premier events. Or I could have tried a new experience - a 101 - along with only 140 others. Sure, new might be good...but I know the others are great. Am I going to ue my vacation time for a "might be good" or a "definitely great?" Had there not been conflict with another, then that's a different story.

With 140 entrants, the people have made their choice fairly clear. This business model has faults, as much as we would hope it does not. Location, marketing and timing were issues. Would I open Joe's burger shack right across from a McDonald's? Hell no.

Make no mistake, the 101 guys ARE taking on the big guys, but the market is not there for them to wait a few years for the people to come. You cannot stay in business when you lose money, and you cannot retain venues when the town sees no benefit. These are basic principles for a RD. Remember, you have to sell an event like this to the town, and have them understand the economic impact for them to get behind it. Safe to say, there's not much impact with only 140 people in teh event.

In his reporting, Slowman alluded to a few biker/car near misses in addition to the collision. Hey, the reality is that this stuff can't happen if you're going to hope to offer a better product than the best in the business. In our little local triathlon we use portable crowd fences at intersections...we just move them when it's time for cars to go through. It means nobody is going to hit a cyclist, and that a cyclist won't go off course. IM does this too in spots. This is just one example of the little things that need to be in place if you're going to run a safe event, that people will come back to. As Slowman wrote:

Likewise, there were course issues. There was one aid station for each lap on the bike. That's one station for every 13 miles. While that would work at a race like Wildflower, it worked less well here, because of the heat and humidity. Also, there were traffic issues revolving around the road closures, with impatient drivers shooting across the road, and a few near misses with cyclists -- in addition to the one direct hit. In one sense, it was a blessing in disguise this race wasn't much bigger. I would say that Bradenton and its surrounding communities either must come to love and embrace this race, and grant it a bike course, or there cannot be a Triathlon One-O-One in Bradenton next year.

If you're going to take in the big boys, you had better come across as one right away. There are no room for errors in this business - the standard is too high already.

GG, you're so hung up on the field size. Let it go already. 140 isn't bad for a first-up event on a crowded calendar. Challenge Wanaka (remember this is the Roth crew and this race was BIG news amongst the global tri community when announced) had something like 80 individuals, and 50 teams. If you build it [well], they will come. A quality race will draw quality fields...

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blood, sweat...and big gears

I hated every minute of training, but I said, ''Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.''
- Muhammad Ali

You say you are not trying to be negative, but damn! Sure reads that way!!!

Are you the Tri101 accountant? If not, then how do you know that they are losing money? Or is that just an assumption?

Now take Napa for example. I raced it yesterday. I would not call it world class (yet). See the Napa thread--I gave it a "C" but would probably race it again, especially over the zoo of Wildflower (been there, done that). It was the third year for Napa and they had about 400-450. He will close it out at 500. First year I think they might have had 100-150, so he is seeing growth. Lots of out of town folks there too.

And for your earlier example of how IMNA (now NAS) does everything right. Well, mostly. Actually a very high percentage of the time, but not always. Tell that to my friends who had a bike stolen out of the IMF transition area a few years ago.

Every message you've posted on this thread sounds like you have an axe to grind. Why is that? Or maybe I'm just cranky and reading it that way.

clm

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

I think he should be hung up on field size...It's a pretty big part of the feasibility of a race....

You can say that Challenge Wanaka had only 80 people....don't be surprised if it doesn't continue for 2009 if the numbers remain low for 2008.

Long course tris are EXPENSIVE to put on. You either have to have really deep pockets to ride out the storm, until you can get the bigger numbers, or you end up folding. I know if I had a race with 100 athletes, I couldn't continue doing it. I'd probably do it for a second year, hoping that the good job I did the first year will yield much bigger fields the following year. But, if the #'s stayed small for the second year, I'd be forced to hang it up.

It wouldn't mean I didn't care about the event. But, I don't have the money to lose for a couple of years. At 100 people, I'd lose ALOT of money. I don't know too many rich RD's out there that can hold out for years with tiny fields....There may be some sponsors out there willing to help, but they'd have to be patient as well....

Understand, the field size doesn't have much to do with the quality of the event...But, it does have a big impact on the viability of an event.

[reply]
[.reply]
...you can be sure that will the huge volunteer teams, this wouldn't have happened. Anyone who's ever volunteered at an Ironman knows that there is someone at practically every corner and every intersection, guiding the athletes. [./reply]

There were two police officers at the intersection where I made my three wrong turns. I'm not sure the guys at HFPOneOOne could have done more in terms of manning an intersection. This was not the result of poor staffing, just bad luck.[/reply]


And the Mr. Congeniality award goes to . . . Rappstar of COURSE :)

Tough luck, IMO your posts here you already are the champ!

Every message you've posted on this thread sounds like you have an axe to grind.

Well, his user name is GearGrinder! :)

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

[reply][b]Every message you've posted on this thread sounds like you have an axe to grind.[/b]
[b][/b]
Well, his user name is[b] [/b][i]GearGrinder![/i][b] [/b]:)[/reply]

HHAHAHAHA Good one Fleck!

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

for sure, i agree about the viability of running such events and i think the Challenge guys will be pissed if the field doesn't at least double based on the glowing feedback received from this year's competitors & supporters. i was just saying 140 entries really isn't bad when you consider it's a first-time event and the apparent quality of races available on the same weekend...

i also think the quality of the field can & does influence the participation rate amongst us regular folk. its just cool racing with the pros! now if folks know the Vanhoenackers, Lavelles, Vabrouseks, Rappstars, etc of this world are racing these events (which they likely didn't until maybe a few weeks/days ago, ie, too late), and the no's still don't improve, then it's time to start worrying...

i wish the organisers well

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blood, sweat...and big gears

I hated every minute of training, but I said, ''Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.''
- Muhammad Ali

 can we assume you make negative posts for all events where an accident occurs? Seems to me there have been quite a few deaths at IMNA events.

No CLM, I have no axe to grind. You just don't see the big picture. As I've stated, I really WANT to race Halifax next year, and I HOPE the series is still around. I'm not a Tri101 accountant, but I am realistic, and given the current offerings I just don't see how there is room for this series. I'm not shooting in the dark here - I've served as race director for our local tri for the last 4 years. I understand logistics, as does KJ, and I think we're both in agreement that it doesn't look good.

Pro's don't keep a race alive, especially when a race pays out big prize money. You need the average Joe and his friends to come to your race, with their families. They didn't come this year, and that's a shame. You also need those average Joe's to volunteer, buy hotel rooms, and eat at restaurants - that keeps the community happy, and keeps them willing to put up with the inconvenience of raceday interruptions to their town. It's not easy to convince a town council to accommodate a race, especially a long course. Do you fully understand the logistics involved in putting on a race? Make no mistake, town councils are NOT big fans of anything that involves using public roads.

Our local tri attracts about 400 athletes a year, approximately 50 of them local. We're a remote location, but because we have junior divisions, we stay alive. We attract kids - and by default, kids bring families. The average out of town entrant for our race brings 3 other people with them, so that works out to about 1100 people coming to our town. I track this so that I can understand the economic impact, and use this info to persuade our town to pave roads, supply police, etc. By the way, this is a sprint tri. With incredible long term sponsorship, and fantastic volunteers, it still costs us about $20,000 to run the event each year.

That's just a well-established sprint. A long course is a whole different ballgame. Ask Chip or KJ. This is a HUGE undertaking, with extremely high expenses. Sponsor dollars can help to offset some of the financial pressure, but when I look at the One-o-One site I see a distinct lack of major sponsors. Go take a look...you'd be surprised at the lack of sponsors.

I want to race Halifax next year, really bad. I would have this year, but it conflicts with a certain IM race that I registered a year in advance for (before I knew about 101). I love the distance, and the concept. But the "common sense" side of me outweighs the emotional side, and I see the obvious signs that things aren't good. Pick a problem, any of which would be crippling to a RD:
- NO MAJOR SPONSORS (big problem)
- NO ENTRANTS (HUGE problem)
- REDUCED ENTRY REVENUE (HUGE problem)
(we know they were in massive need of entrants, because of all of the 1/2 price entry promotions everywhere)
- TERRIBLE SCHEDULING (a big problem, and a poor mistake)
- SAFETY CONCERNS (growing pain)
- NO ECONOMIC IMPACT (big problem)
(which affects the communities willingness to host again)

One-o-one wants to expand to 20 events worldwide, but they're struggling with 4. 20 is an awesome idea, but this isn't Field of Dreams...they built it, and people aren't coming. As RD, there is no way that I could be making money on a sprint event with this small a field, let alone a long course race. This is a big problem, regardless of how many STers say "it'll be fine." You people need to realize that a race is a business, and if the business loses money it closes.

Someone asked why I'm fixated on the number of entrants? Because 140 entrants doesn't pay for the $50,000 in prize money, and the marketing, and the huge swag bags, and the event licenses, and the police, and the finishers medals, and the event insurance, and the t-shirts, and the fancy video screens, and the timing system, and the bike racks, and the lifeguards, and the fencing, and the food, and the motor vehicles, and the signage...need I go on? And it certainly doesn't leave any room for profit, which is why it's being run in the first place.

So CLM, you have a lot to say yet you're a perfect example of why this One-o-One concept isn't working. You're among the relative few that knew about the race, yet you weren't there - you chose another race...an established race. Sure, like us you probably like the concept, but you didn't put your money where your mouth is. Don't get me wrong, I'm not faulting you, but I'm just saying that you're a perfect example of what they're up against if they are to survive. You do long course races, yet you weren't there. You probably like certain ones, or you didn't want to travel to Florida, or...whatever your reason, you weren't there. Neither was I. Let's say you're not alone. Let's say there are thousands out there just like you who actually knew about the race and chose to race elsewhere or chose not to go...what makes you so sure it will survive?

I have no axe to grind. I'm just incredibly disappointed with the the dismal support that this event received. It seemed like such an excellent idea, but 140 entrants is a bad, bad sign. Again, I WANT to race Halifax next year - that's the emotional me talking. But the realistic me says that if you think that a long course race with only 140 participants is a viable business interest, then you need to get your head screwed on straight.

By the way, there are only 113 entrants so far for Clearlake on June 10. 30 of them are pro's who typically homestay (no economic impact there). I also assume that anyone coming in from out of town has probably registered already, so the hotels know their business levels already. Barring huge race-day registrations, this race will likely be another flop. I would suggest that if you all want to see this series survive, that you go race it before it goes bankrupt. Or you can comment on how it's fine, and wait for other people to keep this series alive, but so far those other people aren't coming.

p.s. For those out there that mistake my realistic concerns for negativity, or think I have an axe to grind, let me just say "I wish the race directors, and the 101 series, the best of luck. See you in Halifax, in 2008."

             If I had a dollar for every time I have had to defend the various RD 's of Ironman Canada over the last decade(not to mention Graham and NAS) I would have enough money to pay my race entries forever.Unless someone has been there to see what it takes to put on a class event then it's really hard to understand what a huge task it is.I too hope that the One-0-One series works out but I fear they are in for a tough time of it for the first year or two.

>>So CLM, you have a lot to say yet you're a perfect example of why this One-o-One concept isn't working. You're among the relative few that knew about the race, yet you weren't there - you chose another race...an established race. Sure, like us you probably like the concept, but you didn't put your money where your mouth is.<<

One problem is that it was announced after most people had their race schedules set for the year. I know I do/did (I pretty much know what I'm doing in 2008 already too.) Second, I would race Clear Lake, but for the fact I wil have done an IM race (and traveled to/from Brazil) just two weeks prior. The coach said no. I will most likely be at CL to volunteer. Third, I have no desire to travel to any race in the state of Florida, no matter the RD. Fourth, I may race the Woodlands race this fall. Stay tuned.

I say, wait until the 2008 races happen due to my point 1 above. Then we can talk.

clm

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

"its just cool racing with the pros! now if folks know the Vanhoenackers, Lavelles, Vabrouseks, Rappstars"

I dont think most athletes have ever heard of any of these people. Have been racing 15 years, 10 with IMNA. The list I know is short, and none of them are on it. Do you really pick a race based on what pros are there?

I can tell you that the Gasparilla Distance Classic is run every year in Tampa, Florida on closed roads. Not saying it's illegal (although I suspect it is). The Tampa Police Department is certainly involved in closing the the roads for that race. The same is true for other road races I have run in Florida (TurkeyTrot in Clearwater every year).

I think that it's these types of challenges that every potential 101 participant faces. The thing about picking a race is that so many people are caught in the IM cycle - having to register a year in advance - that they'd already set their schedule by the time the 101 series was announced. It can't win. I personally think they announced their schedule too late, but I also think that anyone doing an IM won't likely be able to fit in a 101 race, unless they're months apart. Since we register for IM races so far in advance, that series wins by default.

So it all boils down to too many long course races - there's just no room for the series, unfortunately. You're a prime example of what they face, because like thousands of other long course triathletes, you're already doing an IM. That pretty much clears your schedule for at least a month before and after. And it's not like you can race long course every weekend, so you have to pick and choose these races carefully, and coordinate the schedule.

Like most others, you're also travelling to an IM, and these are generally destination races. Not too many people pick an IM because it's close to them. But are the 101 events the type of race that you'll pack the wife and kids up for, and head across the country to race in? I'm not sure, but with that in mind you're currently looking at mostly local people in the 101 fields. If you check out the ClearLake field, outside of the 30 pros, the majority of the field are CA residents. These races are geared toward being destination events, but realistically, they're not.

Anyway, you had specific reasons why you weren't racing, and the funny thing is that your reasons are probably shared by most of the long course triathlete community: schedule already set, conflicts with IM, and don't want to travel to that race. The major hurdle for the 101 guys is that for long course triathletes, the IM event will always be the A race - the one they sign up for first, the one they travel too, the one they train all year for - and everything else has to fit around that schedule.

Here's the problem for next year. In my case, I'd like Halifax to be my A race for 2008, but committing to Halifax means saying no to a domestic IM. I'll be at MOO and LP so signup is easy, but by passing on an IM, I take the chance that Halifax will still run. If it doesn't, then I don't have an IM to fall back on because the rush to get in is over so quick. Yeah, I know I can always try another non-IM race but to be honest I love the vibe of racing with 2000 others - it's fun. I may try Silverman, but I'd love to see more people on the course. Anyway, it's a dilemma, and it's the same one that many, many long course triathletes will face. The fact is that for most of us our '08 schedule will be set in the next few months, when they sign up for an IM a year ahead of time. How many people will pass up an IM spot to take the chance that a fledgling series will still be around next year? I want to, but I'm still not sure I will. Tough call.

I'm still optimistically looking forward to Halifax in '08, but not holding my breath.

"That's an awefully small field to have had problems like this"

had this been a field of 1400 instead of 140 jordan would never have made the wrong turn. but, there are other issues. the bradenton race should never have happened. clear lake should've been the opener. i think the organizers understand that. it was an expensive lesson.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Amen!!!! The number of times I have almost killed/gotten killed by a (well-meaning) policeman with his back to the bike flow, or waiving his arms in a way that made no sense to a biker ripping around a curve, or who misjudged a gap in the cyclists to allow a car through...

As to the discussion of 1-0-1's development, I am like a lot of people who just gets tired of triathlon hype. Most all of it is specious. And PR cuts both ways; it is necessary to promote a business, but when it fails to happen you are stuck with beign called on your claims. Remember the PR about how many athletes were demanding this distance, how it was an idea who's time has come, how IM has a legitimate competitor, etc? Nothing not to like about almost any race, but they have numbed the market while increasingly believing their own hype. Now we have to hear that 140 competitors is actually huge compared to Kona their first years....yeah, that's a valid comparison.

As for the "supply side" of the equation: it seems that there are now twice as many triathlons around, particularly the 1/2 IM distance. I don't see how they can all be viable.

In any event, thanks to all RD's who make the effort! Certainly few of you are doing this to get rich. Best wishes to everyone...I just wish I had a free weekend to go to Halifax, myself.

I just got back from Bradenton, where I survived the heat and the wind and finished the first 101 race. I wasn't prepared for the distance or the heat, but it was important to me to participate and cross the finish line since I've been a friend of race organizer Shannon Kurek since the early '90s and have done many HFP events.

The police officers did an amazing job dealing with the large amount of traffic that was backed up on the bike course in front of the shopping areas (especially Wal-Mart) and near the I-75 interchange. The police definitely earned their money, unlike some other races where they seem to be doing just enough to earn their pay. Thank you to all of the officers!!

I witnessed the female pro t-bone the car who turned left in front of her. She had just passed me and gave me an encouraging word, then put her head down and started hammering again. She looked up at the last second, but it was too late. After witnessing that on my first lap, I had my hands on the brakes through every intersection for the remainder of the ride. No one turned in front of me but I did have to nearly stop once to get between two cars that were stopped in the middle of the road.

Every pro I saw was riding through the many intersections with his or her head down and in the aero position. I was surprised there weren't more accidents. A teammate of mine also collided with a car but was able to continue. I do think every triathlete has to be prepared for anything that might happen on a bike course and can't just put his or her head down when going through intersections and rely on the race organization to keep him or her safe. We've all done it, including myself, and I can understand the need to hammer with your head down when there's a $50K prize purse.

Another aid station on the bike would have been a bonus, but wasn't a major concern or problem for me.

The remainder of the event went very smoothly. The volunteers, although few in number, were excellent as were the spectators along the course. I like single loop courses the best, but the multiple loops didn't bother me much. The race is the thing, more than looking at different scenery all the time.

I witnessed how hard Shannon and the entire 101 organization worked over the weekend and in the months leading up to the Bradenton event. I think that in time -- with their history and with things they can still learn -- they are capable of putting on a national series of long-distance triathlons that is equal to the best in the U.S. and I've done many of the high-profile, long-standing triathlons in the U.S.

They will be able to find better locations than Bradenton (or better bike courses in Bradenton) in the future if people start to fall in love with the 101 distance. I can testify from Sunday that a 101 is easier to survive than an IM because, well, it's shorter than an IM. I didn't do a swim longer than 1500 yards, do a ride longer than 30 miles or run longer than 13 in prep for the race. I do, however, have a deep base from more than 10 years of IM training and made no attempt to "race" the event, although I definitely had to focus in the final half of the run just to keep running.

Since I cruised most of the event, others will have to testify as to whether the recovery time is significantly shorter than the time it takes to recover from an IM.

The first 101 race is in the books, but I still have the same question that I had when I first heard about the series. Is there enough interest out there to build and sustain another national long-distance series?

That's up to you guys, I guess. I've done my time. My personal interest in long-distance triathlon is fading after more than 20 years. After my farewell tour of DATTT and IMLP in the coming months, I'm ready to for a new focus on sprint tris and hour-long trail runs.

Assuming that there is a different bike course next year, I'd recommend the Bradenton 101 race if you're looking for a new challenge. The race organizers will treat you very well and there are some beautiful beaches on the Gulf to enjoy before and after the race.

Good luck!

Mark Lemmon doing business here as Dave Stohler

Dan, do you know anyone who may consider doing the ITU double O distance as a series. Now, this would at least be something different,
and I know I would be the first one to sign up for clear lake for this distance.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

"I would race Clear Lake, but for the fact I wil have done an IM race (and traveled to/from Brazil) just two weeks prior."

personally, i think the biggest single bloc of entries available to the 101 folks are those who've already signed up for an Ironman. there are two types of people out there, those who are truly ready for their IM and know they are, and those who truly aren't... and know they aren't. and know they're not going to be.

considering the pool of those who're racing IMs these days, i would say there are a lot more in the second category than are in the first.

the 101 is the perfect race for the IM hopefuls who, as their IM approaches, are less and less hopeful because of what has transpired in their lives in the 9 or 10 months since they were obliged to enter. if i were the 101 guys, i'd be going hard after this pool of potential entries.

by the way, i heard they wrote checks to the pro athletes the afternoon of the race. i'm going to keep track of the bills, finding out which are paid and how fast. if these guys pay johnny on the spot, i'm going to trumpet that. if they don't, i'm going to trumpet that. but if they do, then i hope folks will understand that the true heroes of this sport are those who go into their own personal tank, and go in deep, wagering on this market (whether in retail, manufacturing or in race production). it's especially hard to go deep, betting on a market, when so much of that market thinks ill of its own capacity to support a new venture.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"the 101 is the perfect race for the IM hopefuls who, as their IM approaches, are less and less hopeful because of what has transpired in their lives in the 9 or 10 months since they were obliged to enter. if i were the 101 guys, i'd be going hard after this pool of potential entries. "

Yeah for sure. I'd consider doing one if there was one down here in NZ, just to see how my prep is going for an ironman. But don't really know if there is the market for something like that here...it's already pretty saturated given the population base.

I said this at the beginning when the races were announced. The Florida 101 will never gain large acceptance due to the date and location. There's the Gulf Coast Tri this weekend and Florida 70.3 next weekend. These races are 1) a classic and 2) a 70.3 event. They need to substantially change the date if they want racers to show up. Make it 2 weeks earlier and they might get a lot more of the 1/2 distance guys to show up, or the "revenge racers" from IMAZ. I'd do it if it were roughly the 2nd week of April. But if I have to choose between the three, I'll pick one of the halves.

In reality a mid-April race would compete (in the southeast) only against St.Anthony's for racers. Weather is almost uniformly good, and those early year racers can easily do the 101 and then choose either the GCT or 1/2IMFL if they want.

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Good points. You'd swear the timing and location of the first 101 race was a "rookie" mistake - strange, because these guys should have been able to see the conflicts.

Yup, that is why I signed up for Halifax to prep for IMWA...

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"...it should be swim, bike, run, cage fight." - el fuser
"I noticed that I am in your sig line! Wow! That's s first for me. Thanks." - Fleck

So did they do any drug testing?

Ouch.

It sounds like a lot of well intentioned effort went into this series and this race, but its the result not the effort that gets judged. In Australia we just had two Half IM's cancelled for this season due to lack of numbers (they were getting fields of around 300-400). I looked at the 101 concept with a lot of interest (I always get excited about a new race and a chance to travel somewhere new) but 140 people in the USA? That cant be right - you guys are the experts of big. A single state in the US will order more bikes from a manufacturer than our entire country - how can you only get 140 people to a brand new 'bells and whistles' race? You have how many well attended iron distance races each year? (we have 2). Surley you would have expected at least 500 folk (the triathlete tradgics like us) who would turn up out of morbid curiosity if for nothing else? I attanded a new off-road tri race down the coast from Melbourne in Aus as I wanted to support the concept and we got about the same number of entrants but this was just a little local fun race...

The big problem seems to be that the market already has what it wants: a short Ironman branded race for the masses (70.3), a full IM distance for the enthusiasts, and something unobtainable for the obsessed (Kona). So I look at 101 and I dont get it. Anyone know roughly how much money they spent to get to this point? The retun on 140 entrants would be about $25K (assuming some half price entries etc). In the words of the Simpsons cartoon fast food attendent "Allow me to retreive your burreto from the boiling oil Mr Simpson, Ow!, Ow!, Ow!"

Great response, Keith. As a Director of IT Services who gives thought each and every day as to how I could make a living in the Triathlon industry I find your thoughts interesting. You see race contraction occurring at a time when the pace of growth in the sport is at its highest. USAT membership stats:

2004: 53,000 members
2006: 70,000 members
2007: 90,000 members

Do you believe that the proliferation of races is due to race directors overestimating the growth of the sport? My first race of the season was a sprint triathlon in a small town west of Atlanta. It capped at 350 racers and sold out several weeks ahead of race day. I know there is a difference between putting on a sprint and a 70.3 but it sure seems that we have a shortage of races here in Georgia ... in fact, as much as I enjoy Gilford and Lake Winnepesaukee, I would prefer that you move Timberman to Atlanta!

My thoughts on One-o-One; it is a concept that is ahead of its time. They are targeting the individual who wants to go long but is not ready for IM or can not commit the time to an IM training regimen. There are not enough people out there who fit this bill. The sport is in rapid growth mode and just about every newbee into the game (especially those over 40) sets his or her sights on Ironman. They decide to do an Olympic in year 1, a 70.3 in year 2 ("I want to get the warm and fuzzies associated with an IM and only go 70.3 miles") and then their IM in year 3. If they can break even for the next several years I do believe that it is a concept that could work and experienced triathletes will see the benefit of the distance ... right now, there are not enough experienced triathletes dumping money into our sport ... it is all the newbees.

Is 101 doomed? Not sure. But 140 participants for an event that was SIGNIFICANTLY marketed to the triathlon community is very weak.

Every pro I saw was riding through the many intersections with his or her head down and in the aero position.

Mark,

This is somethong I will never understand. Just about every race course for every triathlon is open to car traffic. I have been racing and riding bikes for many years and no matter if I am out training or racing I am always heads-up and ready for anything when going through an intersection - even in a race where there are police at the intersection. Just last summer at a local race here in Ontario I as involved in an incident. As I was heading towards an intersection at high speed on my bike, I saw the cop with his arm up holding up the traffic for me and he was motioning me through. However, out of the corner of my eye I could see that there was a car in second postition at the light that was starting to come around the first stopped car and even with the cop shouting loudly and nearly jumping in front of that car it still came out into the intersection blocking my path and I had to take evasive action to avoid a collison with the car. I ended up in the gravel on the far shoulder of the road, somehow still upright, a little frazzeled but none the worse for wear and I carried on. I was able to get through this because I was ready for anything in the intersection. Had I just barreled through head-down and hammering, I would have slammed right into the car that had lurched out into the intersection.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

"But 140 participants for an event that was SIGNIFICANTLY marketed to the triathlon community is very weak."

their problem is not that the concept is wrong, or the timing (in a macro sense) is wrong. the problem was that announcing an early-may event during the prior november is wrong. the long coursers have already made up their minds what they're going to do. as word spreads, and ads appear in magazines, in february, march, april, nobody has time to get ready for an event of that length. it's not a sprint, it's not an impulse buy. they should've opened in clear lake, and that's what i counseled them. i would guess their sense of my soundless of counsel went up, as their bank balance went down (as a result of this race).

when i said i thought the biggest market was unprepared IM aspirants, i wasn't talking about the 101 as a get-ready race, but as an instead-of race. if you're not ready for brazil or couer d' alene, chasing your non-refundable entry fee is throwing good money after bad, and applying what might be appropriate 101 training to the inappropriate 140.6 distance. of course, for those who've done the work, and know they're ready for 140.6, and want to do that race, they ought to do that race.

yes, the event was SIGNIFICATLY marketed. but it was marketed SIGNIFICANTLY late. i predict the series will succeed. the question is whether it will succeed with precisely the current folks, that is, the 101 brand will be built, and i don't think it's going to just go away. but after the current crop of investment and execution is exhausted, it's either going to have been all worthwile and a thriving brand, or it'll still be sputtering and another group will come in and add assets and expertise and give it a shot in the arm. if 101 makes it 12 months, and it executes and pays its bills, then i doubt it's going away.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

The # of triathletes is growing, but the # of longcourse triathlons is outstripping the demand. When you look at USAT #'s, if it's growing that fast, it probably means there are a ton of newcomers to the sport. Ultimately, that means that they're looking at doing sprints, etc at least for a while. So, there ARE more triathletes. And there are an increasing # of longcourse athletes, I think. But, not enough to support the # of new races coming online, IMO.

I'd also guess that the increase in #'s of USAT members may also mean that the sport is changing a bit, to become more participatory as opposed to hardcore. Think of running, and the marathon boom. The marathon used to be about the hardcore athlete. Now, it's about finishing. I'd offer a guess that alot of the new USAT members are in it for the lifestyle, do some tris, but it's not all about longcourse. After reading this, I'm thinking I'll just start putting on sprints:)

Seriously, I don't know the answer. I just think that the # of serious longcourse athletes is leveling off, even while the sport is growing. Even with a big increase in longcourse athletes, it still can't feed the current # of races. I'm sure everyone on this board has seen the HUGE increase in # of HIM's in the past year.

Back on the soapbox, but I also think there are more people deciding to put on races, seeing the increase in #'s in the sport. Thinking this is their road to riches, they decide they'll put on a HIM. But, look around...How many HIM's are truly successful and profitable? It's not that many. You do need the big #'s....Off the top of my head, there are only about 12 or so that are bigtime in the US...Eagleman, Timberman, Wildflower, Steelhead, FL 70.3, Cali 70.3, Gulf Coast, Buffalo Springs, Vineman, Spirit of Racine, Clearwater...I may be forgetting a few, but that's about it. This isn't to say these are the only good races, but they're the biggest. There are quite a few really great races, but they don't draw the numbers....That's a pretty small list....

Dan,

So you have the very fit professionals who like the 101 distance because they can race more times per season and the people who sign up because they don't believe they are fit enough to finish the IM they have scheduled. That seems to leave a big gap in the middle of the field?

>>yes, the event was SIGNIFICATLY marketed. but it was marketed SIGNIFICANTLY late. <<

Aside from here, where else was it marketed? Like you said, word needs to get out, but I don't remember seeing it anywhere really except on here.

There other thing is dates. Last weekend there were four HIM distance or greater races on the same weekend, two in California, one a very long established race. You will never get the California crowd to fly across the country on that weekend.

And the Clear Lake date---I think it would be better on another date. Right now it's the weekend after Alcatraz. Around here, everyone has Alcatraz on the mind, plus the large number of folks who are going to IM CdA. I still say that there is a need for a good long distance race here in October. Yeah, there is Napa in the fall, but Envirosports needs to up their game some if they are going to continue to charge the prices they charge.

clm

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

"the 101 brand will be built"

Dan,

Why does the race distance have to be a brand?

Why can't you just put on a great, well run event, regardless of the distance and with all the requesite marketing and promotion make it successful?

Two of the best run, longest standing races in Ontario are run over odd distances - Muskoka and Kingston, each run over the 2K/55K/15K distances.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Kevin,

It's funny. Only a few short years ago, I would have said that were were not enough, 1/2 IM races. Now there seems to be a surplus.

My sense, from talking to retailers and I have been talking to many, is that they are still selling a lot of what many consider entry level equipment. Thats' good news. But not too many of these people, and rightly so, are jumping right up to a 1/2 and full distance IM's. Check out Danskin. Their numbers are huge and many retail accounts tell me that sales to women are on a tear right now. Thats' were the growth is.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

And most of them are also 70.3 branded races, correct?

Here in Ontario we are experiencing a massive triathlon boom, but you're correct about who these new numbers actually are - they're short course people. We have two very successful long course triathlons - Muskoka and Peterborough 1/2. They draw huge numbers, but the other attempts are quite small. Even with our huge number of triathletes, there just aren't enough long course racers to fully support other well-established attempts at long course like Parry Sound. Sure, there is lots of growth in triathlon, but I agree - it's short course growth. The average joe wants to do a triathlon (spring, maybe olympic if they;re a keener), not necessarily a 70.3 or an IM or a 101.

We seem to have a finite supply of long course athletes, and a seemingly infinite supple of long course events...this doesn't balance out.

"the people who sign up because they don't believe they are fit enough to finish the IM they have scheduled. That seems to leave a big gap in the middle of the field?"

the nice, france, triathlon never had a big problem finding 1000 people. i'm saying that today, as of now, for this brand new series, is best source of incremental entries is that group that i identified.

but next year, that's a different story. next year's race will be filled by this year's folks to decline to spend that $450 12 months in advance.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"but next year, that's a different story"

Dan,

Indeed, that's where 101 will get it's real acid test. Now people know. How many of those sign-up-the day-after-this-years-IM-race-for-next-years-IM-race folks will pause and think about doing something else next year?

Strange that they did not think this out a bit more with a bit more lead time to promote things.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

"Why does the race distance have to be a brand?"

there are two "brands" that have to be built. if it was just about the distance, then the great floridian would have as many entries as IM florida. the brand means an experience, and one thing graham fraser does is provide a great experience. the 101 folks have to prove they can match this.

also, tho, the distance has to be seen as something worthy of pursuit. if i started putting on a bunch of 30k footraces, saying this is an appropriate alternative to the marathon, i think people would have to warm up to that idea.

for 3-sporters, a marathon is hard enough. adding the other two events makes an IM an event that is frankly unsuitable for many of its current adherents, because of physiology or lifestyle. but there is no good alternative, so they keep going back.

and, there are a lot of folks for whom IM is the sport. they are not triathletes. they bag IMs, that's what they do. there's an open question as to whether they'll ever really be triathletes. for those who are not triathletes, never were, and will not be, they'll eventually leave IM racing. but for those who'll mature in their view of what this activity represents, and will turn into triathletes, i think the 101 will present for them a viable and compelling alternative.

but that's for long coursers. i have doubts as to whether i'll ever race anything longer than olympic. that's my physiology.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Bingo...
Another example was Lone Star for us....We had nearly 2000 athletes for the weekend...500 of them were HIM'ers....Great weekend, but the sprint had the most, followed by the International.

For Mooseman, we have about 750 for each the International and the HIM...But, Mooseman's AWESOME:), and people aren't flocking to the HIM....

For Longhorn, we'll see. It's in a great spot, Austin....But, there are also a bunch of additional HIM's, plus the 101 4 weeks later...

The sprints are drawing big #'s. As mentioned, the big HIM's are drawing, but I don't see any new ones that have broken into that club. They're all fairly well-established. It's not an easy thing. With 500 or so, you can manage to keep it afloat, and do ok. If you do a good job, it'll continue to grow. But, from my perspective, I'd be chugging pepto-bismol and be on the phone to my creditors begging for forgiveness if I had 200 people....

"and, there are a lot of folks for whom IM is the sport"

Dan,

Personally, I find that odd and somwhat discouraging. I see it here on ST. It's like IM is a seperate sport somehow. It involves swimming cycling and running, but strangly these folks don't indentify themselves as triathletes - they are Ironmen. Perhaps they are taking what Reilly tells them at the end of every IM to heart!!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

As of right now, Clear Lake has even less people than Bradenton had and is about a month out. Do you think they would have had more if not for the Bradenton race?

Dan, on this issue, I just flat out disagree with you. And since I think you are getting paid by 101, I do not think you may be able to be totally honest.

I strongly strongly feel this new distance try is a total joke! Sorry for being so honest. As another example of why I say this, when I pulled into the gas
station on Sunday to fill my motor home with 180 bucks of gas from my trip back from Wildflower, we saw some folks we knew. They asked what we were up
to and said we have just gotten back from a triathlon. The first thing they said was it the Hawaii thing. So, all the general population knows about is the
Hawaii race, and maybe its distance with a Marathon at the end. So, as I am trying to explain to them there are different distances, and I had just completed
an Olympic distance, it again just hit me that if I was going to put out the effort for another long distance race, I sure would not waste the energy on anything
less than the real deal. Why would I try to explain why I did a 101 distance and not the real deal?

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

"Strange that they did not think this out a bit more with a bit more lead time to promote things."


I think there was pressure to do something big ASAP.

Steve, I continue to be surprised on what I see Dan writing. Meaning, over the years I have always seen him challenge the status quo
and be right on the mark with everything I have read. But, to see him to continue to push the 101, and it will somehow basically fill up next
years races, well, I just feel he is totally off the mark. I do not even get the feeling from the ST posts that here is that much interest, and there
are lot of long distance passion here. So, as I asked Dan, is he being paid by 101? I see no logic on how he can post what he is doing unless he was
being paid.

I still stongly offer that if this company wants to try and make their mark in this sport, change the distance to the new ITU double 0.
Look at all the comments that races are filling up big time with sprint and Oly folks. If you were going to market something, market that you
can do something less than a HIM, not something longer. It seems you have a much bigger potential of getting folks to double up. I think
you would also find some passion with tri racers today, like me, who went into this sport to try and improve at ALL 3 events, not just have a fancy
Duathlon race. Plus, to say it is a ITU distance has at least something behind it.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

"Do you think they would have had more if not for the Bradenton race?"

i don't know. but they would have had more time to get their execution ducks in a row, and they could've concentrated their marketing on the bay area, instead of just getting around to it now. you can't nationally promote races like this. it's like a national political election: you still have to beat the doors locally.

look, this is all stuff the 101 folks have come to realize. in the end, if they're sufficiently stubborn and ambitious, these decisions will only affect how long it takes these guys to get back to square one and recoup their investment.

there is a strictly business way to approach this. at the end of year-one, one of two things will happen. it will either have been successful enough to build upon, or not yet over the hump. if it's the former, then great, off to the races. if it's the latter, if i'm graham fraser i approach the organization and buy the 101 brand and leverage my resources against it -- finally i've got a tradename i own. if i'm the 101 owner, i do the deal for no money up front, and take the cash on a per-entry deal over a few years. like a car loan, after 36, or 48, or 60 months it's mine free and clear.

i haven't spoken to graham since last year's kona. i like graham a lot. but perhaps he hates my guts these days, because i do not hate the 101, and i hope for its success (as i hope for the success of WTC and NAS). but, knowing all the players as i do, each and every one of these principals is too much in love with his own business as it currently operates, and lacks the vision and courage to see past the status quo. the exception to this is a very interesting person, john morgan, the bank behind 101. he is very impressive. if i am graham fraser, his name gets into my rolodex, for use in case 101 can't get sufficient traction. if it does gain traction, all that is moot. but that's why i don't think the 101 is going away. one way or another, i think the brand is going to stick around.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"And since I think you are getting paid by 101"

i was paid to host the 101's website. i am paid to produce its online coverage. in neither case am i paid very much, but i'm doing it anyway because i like the idea of a new brand coming into triathlon, and i honor venture investment in our industry. are you saying i'm not being forthright? have i exhibited a lack of forthrightness in the past that bolsters your view that i'm dishonest in my representations?

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

but next year, that's a different story. next year's race will be filled by this year's folks to decline to spend that $450 12 months in advance.
[/reply]

This is where I see myself. I'm doing an ironman this year b/c I've always wanted to. I'd like to do one every year for the rest of my life but I just can't justify the 450. Maybe tri 101 will be the answer to that.

Dan
www.aiatriathlon.com

---

http://www.aiatriathlon.com

I am just saying that something with how I read your posts does not make sense. Maybe it has nothing to do with about are you being paid or not,
but everything in the past I read from you I could see the logic. I am just not seeing the logic in anything I read you writing about the 101,
just emotion. As is posted, the growth in races is in the Sprint and Oly distance, not in the longer stuff. So, logic says the next step is to attack these
folks to do longer stuff. I think folks maybe looking at this from their past, rather than see the type of new folks coming in. I just do not hear
these new folks talking about longer racing, and I go to, race, and help at probably just about more races than anyone on ST. What I hear and see is
a lifestyle, not just Type A obsessions.

So, who knows, you are the man so maybe I will eat crow. But, again, I just keep looking for the logic in your posting, and I sure am missing it.

Dave

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I just smile when I hear folks complain about entry fees. The entry fees are the cheapest part of any race I do.
I just spent 300 bucks just for gas to do the Wildflower Oly distance. I am just thankful folks put on these races,
and I think we get a bargin!! I have put on races and know first hand what they cost to do. And since most
communities have no desire to have us trash throwing racers come into there communities and mess it up, (from seeing first
hand the trash at vineman last year) having to pay the events locations big bucks for the locations is a large expense I would guess.

So, what type of race I do has nothing to do about about entry fees. Again, if I am going to do a long distance race,
100 bucks has NOTHING to do with my decision. It is do I want to try to explain to folks why I just did a 101 distance,
or that I completed an Ironman? For me, there is no question.

Dave

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

" I am just saying that something with how I read your posts does not make sense."

if you think my posts on 101 don't make sense, go see what the folks in the lavender room think of my posts over there.

"As is posted, the growth in races is in the Sprint and Oly distance, not in the longer stuff."

that's just not true. if one considers the number of half-IM entrants 5 years ago, and then looks today, the rate of growth at this distance has probably exceeded that of any other distance. and then you see the IM paradigm, where almost every entrant has his $450 deducted from his account at least 11mo prior to the event. on what basis are you not acknowledging the growth in long distance?

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I think the $450 is a small part - If people are going to commit to flying somewhere for a race, that's a big commitment - time off, plane tickets, bike transport, rental car, hotel. The race entry fee is only a small part of that (significant part, but not the majority of hte expense).
I also think that 101 is closer to a HIM than an IM, and so you are more likely to get a "local" race crowd than a diverse group. Local meaning you can drive there. It might be a 4-6hour drive, but it's still a drive and not a flight.
As others have said, this is why the local advertising and choice of race weekend is so important.
tom



This is where I see myself. I'm doing an ironman this year b/c I've always wanted to. I'd like to do one every year for the rest of my life but I just can't justify the 450. Maybe tri 101 will be the answer to that.

Dan
www.aiatriathlon.com[/reply]

Dan,

Thanks for putting up with these questions for an event you don't even own. Dialog like this is great for the sport.

I think the 101 team did a lot of things well in creating and generating this new series. I was wondering, did they ever consider adopting the new ITU long distance distances? Isn't 4+120+30 almost 100 miles anyway. And they would have a built in World Champs that rotates every year. This seems like an untaped market in the US.

I really think they missed the mark on "creating something ground breaking, like Hawaii was 20 years ago". I would currently give this honor to the guys putting on 24 hour triathlons. That is much more out of the box.

I see folks post that HIM's are being cancelled since they could not get enough to sign up.

I see how long it is taking Vineman to fill.

I see that wildflower long did not fill, they just closed it real late saying full, I was tracking the numbers.

Napa is getting more folks, but has never filled.

I do not hear from the masses of new folks I talk to at the races I help at that they have to do a long distance race. The shorter fill the life style better.

Looking at myself and talking to other folks my age. We have done the long stuff. Nothing left to prove. Just takes too much out of the body. We enjoy
the lifestyle of racing, meeting our friends, and doing 2 or 3 per month. I am not doing any long distance races this entire season, but still doing like 15 shorter races.

450 is a drop in the bucket compared to the cost for bike stuff, wet suits, etc. Seems like our sport is mostly upper middle class folks from all I have read, so
money on fees is not an issue, or the IM races would not fill in hours 12 months ahead of time.

So, we shall see who is right. But, from all the hype so far, and now all the excuses, someone is getting their lunch eatten. Glad it is not my money since
I just do not see a business model going forward for long stuff. Us baby boomers in quantity want to do the lifestyle, and I am seeing my friends my age
going back to shorter stuff.

I have been wrong before so we shall see. So, give me what the fill rates have to be in quantity and time they open to register for next year to say you
have a model that will make profit. We can then track this starting I guess right now for the 101 race that just happened right? The IM races fill within minutes
after they open from the race.

Dave

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

The main challenge I see for the 101 Series after the first event other than getting their race numbers up initially is how they can truly distinguish and separate themselves from the IM brand, other than the obvious different race distance. The IM brand and how they put on a race is so ingrained in most of us that it is hard to not compare what 101 is doing directly to the IM experience. I'm not a marketing pro and don't know the buzzwords, but I think 101 may need to try to become Apple instead of trying to copy Microsoft.

My motor home got 7.3 MPG on my latest trip.

Dave

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Man, that is exactly the question I have been asking ever since Dan talked about 101. Just have never gotten me excited, and so far,
not many others either.

Now, I had paid for IMcda but cancelled when I saw AG Nationals was going to be on the west coast. This got me excited to train for a goal.

If folks saw the 101 as such a great think to add to their list, they could have done the same.

Now, give me a ITU double O distance, with the possible ability to qualify for World Champs, you have my attention.

Dave

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

"I was wondering, did they ever consider adopting the new ITU long distance distances?"

i would argue that they did what they did partly in response to the new ITU long distance change. to a man and woman, every single long distance athlete who's voiced an opinion (and there have been probably over 100 that are documented) has protested the new distance, and wants the old distance to remain (that is, something close to the 101 distace). the new distance is short of a half-IM. that's like the IAAF saying, "the new longest distance in the world championships and the olympics is going to be the 20k." i doubt pure marathoners would appreciate that. a 20k is much more likely to be won by 5k/10k specialists than by marathon specialists. this new double-olympic is there to provide another racing opportunity, and perhaps a second olympic event, for existing ITU athletes, that is, instead of mccormack, jones, dibens, cave, bolting for IM, or 70.3, or non-ITU "classics" like alcatraz and lifetime fitness, they'll stick around and just go up-distance. it allows you to keep your simon whitfields in the fold. there is nothing about the double-olympic that has anything in mind other than the 500 athletes worldwide that the ITU cares about.

for those who think i've got some vested interest in this, i've been preaching the utility of the 101 or the nice distance for probably 5 or 6 years now. just go to the slowtwitch.com main site and search, or search the forum archives, you'll probably find it.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

>>Check out Danskin. Their numbers are huge and many retail accounts tell me that sales to women are on a tear right now. Thats' were the growth is.<<

I'd agree!

The half on Saturday was 124 men and 98 women. That's pretty amazing for a half.
The sprint on Sunday was 246 men and 292 women!

clm

---

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

Maybe if you'd put some of those HED tires on it, it would get better mileage.

---

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

I think I got some of my info incorrect. Funny thing is, the ITU website www.triathlon.org has the 2007 long course champs as double olympic and the 2008 long course champs in Holland as triple olympic....hmmm.

"I see folks post that HIM's are being cancelled since they could not get enough to sign up."

you see the same thing with sprint and olympic races. that has to do with the quality of the event and its marketing. i still stand by my argument that the half-IM is the distance that has received more growth than any other over this decade, and i suspect you might stipulate to that. certainly, this has caused a plethora of these events, and not all will be successful. we have had tremendous growth in triathlon, but not every race is going to benefit from this, just as not every company making a tri bike is going to benefit from this. only those who execute will benefit.

there are maybe 2000 multisport races in the U.S. if every triathlete does 2.5 races per year (many just do 1 and that's it), and if there are 200,000 triathletes, that's 250 people per race. some races get 1250, some get 2500. those big numbers have got to come out of another RD's hide. if you execute, you'll fill your races.

there are two places left to establish a distance, and that's the old nice distance, and something like the old crawfishman distance, which is pretty similar to the half-old-nice distance (2k, 60k, 15k). i also think, if i was the 101 folks, i'd have both imperial 101 and metric 101, just like centuries do. or half-101, which is roughly that other distance i just spoke of. you can do a ton with this brand.

back to that metric-101: 1.2mi swim, 50mi bike, 11.5mi run. pretty close to your double-Oly. you just have to build your brand, and execute.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

[reply]>>Check out Danskin. Their numbers are huge and many retail accounts tell me that sales to women are on a tear right now. Thats' were the growth is.<<

I'd agree!

The half on Saturday was 124 men and 98 women. That's pretty amazing for a half.
The sprint on Sunday was 246 men and 292 women!

clm[/reply]

that IS impressive and great to see.

Isn't that basically a 1/2 IM? 1.2mi swim, 56mi bike, 13.1mi run. How similar do you want two events to be? To me, it's ridiculous that there are so many different lengths that are trying to become the standard.

That tells me that triathlon as a sport, isn't sure what it wants yet. That's not necessarily good for the growth. Some standardization is key, in order to make the sport accessible and understandable to the masses. Look at running, and it's logical progression for a new runner...5k, 10k, 1/2 marathon, marathon. Clean and simple.

>>I see folks post that HIM's are being cancelled since they could not get enough to sign up.<<

Which HIMs would that be?

CaliMan 1/2 was cancelled due to water issues (lack thereof). That race has also been hurt by the moving venue and date. I'd say that's an abberation. Like slowman said, there will always be specific races which fold due to RD or other issues.

clm

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

As I said, what do I know. The numbers on the 101 will speak for themselves.

Still hoping someone picks up the double O Distance. I think there are more than 500 folks that would be interested.

Dave

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Compare with Wildflower LC (finishers only):

Men: 1397
Women: 459

Maybe the men are the lemmings! ;-)

clm

---

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

I don't really understand how a double-o is that much different than a 1/2IM

1/2 IM: 2k swim 90k bike 21k run
Double-O: 3k swim 80k bike 20k run

Really, they're pretty similar. Wouldn't someone who is interest in that distance already be a 1/2IM candidate? If you draw from one pool to feed another, you're only fragmentign the field.

[reply]It's happened at Lifetime Fitness Triathlon to a couple pros as well...and also when cops were the only ones at the intersection.[/reply]

Is it really so hard to give the cops a MAP of the course? Shouldn't they KNOW which way to direct traffic? This is a very easy fix, IMO, for the cops.

ALSO I always drive the course if I can't bike it first. I think it is quite silly to race without any recon of the course, I speak from experience. Glass, fast downhills, gravel, torn up roads, no shoulders, headwinds, etc....etc...I don't like surprises on race day, so I try to minimize them.

I have gone off a bike course by about 400 yards when the volunteer was a kid sitting in his car, not paying attention and there were no markings on the road, nor signage. Another athlete called me back (I didn't drive the course beforehand!) It also happened to me in a marathon where I ended up running an extra 200 yards.

---

--------------------
Jeanne Roth
Team Timex 2007/2008
http://jeannejeannie.blogspot.com/

Yes, I was in the past. But, as I am trying to do less impact stuff to save my body, I do a lot more swimming.

So again, look at the baby boomers and see where they are going? Do folks in their 50's and 60's want to do more running?
More biking? Or more swimming? I know what folks tell me their training has changed to, and races.

So, in the past I was caught up into the hype. I am now doing races to support my reality, I am getting older, and need
to take care of the body if I want to be one of those 70 year old racers.

So, I have no desire to even do a half again. But, give me the more balanced Double-O race, and I may step back up to
the longer distance.

Dave

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

"That tells me that triathlon as a sport, isn't sure what it wants yet. That's not necessarily good for the growth."

my business, as it was growing, constantly changed its mind as to what it wanted to be. there's the old zenith/motorola business school parable. one insisted it was a TV company, the other wasn't quite sure, and decided to simply say it was a consumer electronics company. motorola is still deciding what business it wants to be, and its BOD's decision to always leave that an open question is what has made motorola successful.

the marathon has been around for 2500 years. it's got a 2470 year head start. allow triathlon a few more years.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

For pros, yes, the double olympic is a sprint. But everyone keeps asking about those 100,000 USAT members. I am guessing that for a majority of those members double olympic is long. Hell, for a lot on ST, that is long. After that, for the average Joe, you are leaving the "race" world and entering the "event" world. And if you are going to do an "event", why not do the IM distance.

I think you overestimate the common sense of triahtletes. I doubt if someone is 101 ready, but not IM ready they are going to face up to it. "Dam it, I have signed up for my life changing IM 'Event' and I am going to do it! Besides, hotel and airfare are already purchased."

It is hard to believe that the growth of triathlon is at the 1/2 IM distance because my in area, metro NY, there have probably been 8x more Oly and sprints added to the calendar in the last decade than 1/2's. Currently we have seen a few 1/2's added (up from none several years ago) but that pales in comparison to the sprints and olys.

I wonder if anyone has a statistic on that? Isn't there a "multi-sports directory" that would have some of this info?

Dave,

I respect your zeal for the "double ITU" distance, but beyond yourself, I doubt there is much interest even in those of us over 50 .... and many of us still like to run. Probably less interest than the 101 distance.
I do agree with you that Dan seems biased in his representation of 101 ... but now has had to be a little more objective about how bad Bradenton turned out to keep credible. It surely seems to be financial bias .... I personally would be fine if he just said it as there is nothing wrong with that. We can all be biased ... we should just declare financial bias when it exists right up front.
Yes, we have many fine choices for races at all distance from sprint to IM distance ... and many seem to be doing well. So many choices and yet only so many heartbeats to be used. And thats before we add in some fine marathons/ 1/2M/ 10Ks and some really great bike races as well .... even open water swim only events. For me .... just keep on bringing those fine NAS events and I'll just keep recovering as quick as I can for the next one available.
Dave

I think a lot of folks on here are talking without too much information. for those folks who have done a 101 distance (old ITU long course), they can tell you it absolutely is different than a 1/2 IM and a full IM. It is a race unto itself. There is virtually no difference between a double 0 and a 1/2 IM. But there is a significant difference between a 101, a 1/2 and a full IM. Trust from one guy that has done all 3, there is a difference and when you race it, you will see the difference.

"I am guessing that for a majority of those members double olympic is long."

exactly. ask yourself, then, how long an IM is for the typical multisporter. were oahu 80 miles around instead of 112, and if the waikiki rough water swim was 1.8mi, instead of 2.4, and if the honolulu marathon was the honolulu 30k, that's the distance the Kona race would be. imagine, then, somebody coming up in 2007 with a race series that was 140.6mi in total. what would you all be saying?

this thread is a microcosm of the problems any new race organizer faces. the problem with the 101 isn't the distance, it's the newness. even a lot of the people here (of all places), who ought to be raising a statue to honor a couple of guys who're laying 100s of 1000s of $$ on the line to build a competing brand of events, are giving them a shit-kicking instead. i'm not saying everyone should line up and enter. i'm not going to enter, because i'm not a long distance guy (i'd give a half-101 a go).

as i wrote last week, most triathletes are followers. they don't have vision. they aren't made of the same stuff as the ones who built the sport. for them, yes, paula's quote of "a catered training day" is very appropriate. until the 101 becomes "safe" there won't be a lot of entrants and, ridiculously enough, "safe" means mass-acceptance. back when we were all triathlon pioneers, mass-acceptance meant it was time to move on to the next new thing.

if scott molina was pushing 25 instead of pushing 50, he'd be all over the 101 like white on rice.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

You may be right, but the 50 plus guys I talk to have gone back to shorter stuff because their body can no longer take the pounding of longer runs.

How old are you? How many folks can run distance, and recover, lets say over 60? I am sure looking at how I can keep racing as I know the knees will give out.
Yep there are some 80's than can still run, but for the masses, and a business model, sprint and Oly is the growth. I was just comparing who really will do a 101 and
not an IM. Not me. And so far, the numbers show not a lot of interest in 101, just excuses. Maybe I am wrong, but just do not see a working 101 business model
from the folks I race with. No one yet I have asked about it has ever heard of the 101 races.

So, I really have no current desire to do a HIM again, or a double O. 10K at the end of a race is just plenty to let it all hang out for my genetics.

Dave

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

"It surely seems to be financial bias"

alright, now i'm getting angry, because now you're defaming me. i am providing live coverage for 4 races, and forum web hosting, and forum architecture building, for them. you decide what the appropriate amount is to be paid for that. print it right here, on this forum. what is the entire amount of remuneration you think is appropriate for that. and then we'll discuss.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Dan, I still like when races work with their physical boundaries/ attributes versus trying to satisfy a standard distance. The old USTS San Jose course had a 45K bike instead of a 40K bike. The course included the Metcalf climb which made the race a legend. If they went with 40k, Metcalf would have been left out.

-Woody

"the brand means an experience, and one thing graham fraser does is provide a great experience. the 101 folks have to prove they can match this. "

From AG athlete perspective I believe 101 gang provided a pretty great experience.
1. Kept athletes informed via email, entry lists, and web blog. Check
2. Provided athletes with a on-line forum. Check
3. Provided athletes with fair and reasonable cost event. Check
4. Provided the athletes a pre-race meeting and meal. Check
5. Provided great swag: good looking technical T-shirt, visor, transition towel, poster. Check
6. Provided a great race day event, with electronic leader board showing real time results. Check
7. Provided great finisher medal and a great cool max finisher T-shirt.
8. Provided great post race awards. Check
9. Provided great post race dinner. Check
10. Provided event store that had reasonable prices. Check

"for 3-sporters, a marathon is hard enough. adding the other two events makes an IM an event that is frankly unsuitable for many of its current adherents, because of physiology or lifestyle. but there is no good alternative, so they keep going back."

I fully agree. IM or marathon racing is not a healthy lifestyle for most of us IMHO.

"they bag IMs, that's what they do"
Dead on center and for some at any cost.

A lot of interesting and thoughtful discussion and most of it is just business case 101 (sorry) - entering a market with an established provider and your main differentiator to compete is the niche market (i.e.,101 distance). Assuming some level of business competency and adequate capital funding to give it a chance to succeed, the real question is whether the 101 niche market is viable. I have my doubts. Time will provide the answer.
---------

---

Born again Heathen
In Case of Keith Moon - Break This Glass
Ironman Certified Coach
USAT Certified Coach
Precision Nutrition Certified

The cops know where to direct traffic, but at most races it isn't their responsibility to direct athletes though they often end up doing that as well. That's what course marshalls/volunteers should be used for...

I hope so, but I don't think so. Too many races for the available racers, and the competition (IM and 70.2) is just too strong to overcome. Again, it's like opening up Joe's Hamburger stand right beside a McDonald's. There is a familiary that goes along with the IM and 70.3 names...call it a "brand" or call it whatever you like, but it will be incredibly tough to overcome. That "brand" has made their races 'destination' races, and have not left many open spots in the schedule. In short, like McDonald's, they've done everything rightto ensure that they'll always be #1.

The marketplace clearly thinks that the distance is the problem.

Pre-launch, there was practically zero support for the conclusion that an off-distance race was wanted by the market, and in fact tons of support for the opposite arguement. Then once the product hit the market, the feedback was/is conclusive.

This is 100%, completely, undeniably and sadly a classic product development and marketing case study pointing to failure due to poor market research.

Very few people have a "problem" with what is out there now, and there isn't enough benefit in the new product to switch.

New Coke, anyone?

[reply][reply]
...call it a "brand" or call it whatever you like, but it will be incredibly tough to overcome. That "brand" has made their races 'destination' races, and have not left many open spots in the schedule. In short, like McDonald's, they've done everything rightto ensure that they'll always be #1.[/reply]

Please explain 'destination' races.

Destination races...races that people will travel for and book holiday time around, and bring the family to, and probably book their season around. It's worth travelling to, because they know what to expect - they know it's a big event, not just a race. People travel fo IM's, and to a lesser degree, people travel for many 70.3 branded races.

101 wanted their races to become "destination" races, but in the business world, the philosophy of "if you build it, they will come" does not automatically work. With a 101, people don't know what they're going to, and they don't even know if they want it. People WANT the IM and the 70.3 events...the success is overwhelming.

Arizona and Louisville and Wisconsin are hardly destination races then.

Dave

I'm late 50's and would say that I'm fortunate to be able to run distance yet .... but I do see the same age group faces at all the long distance races I do. I did several IMNA events last year as well as many shorter events. I know my time will come that I can't do the longer events ... and I'll probably follow your example then. But not yet....!
I actually enjoy the shorter races and place quite well in them .... I just think my best competition is always at the popular NAS events. I look at ultras as being too long .... that to me is beyond my capacity. ( here's to Nick and friends!)
I respect anyone who competes/finishes any triathlon event period .... but if you ask me what has the most cool and respect .... its still the IM distance. Just my opinion .... but I'm happy with it and what else matters! No ... I won't be doing a 101 ... but I probably will skip IMFlorida next year and do Silverman.

you won't be disappointed by Silverman. :)

"The marketplace clearly thinks that the distance is the problem."

with the exception of quelle challenge roth, which was built as an ironman licensee, the old-nice distance races clearly outperformed non-WTC 104.6 races (where entries were the metric) where both were staged (chiefly europe). don't take my word for it (not that you would). let's let the euros chime in and let's see what they say.

"Pre-launch, there was practically zero support for the conclusion that an off-distance race was wanted by the market"

there was also zero support for the conclusion that an on-distance race was wanted by the market, otherwise we'd be clamouring for our entries into the great floridian, et al.

"once the product hit the market, the feedback was/is conclusive."

this is precisely what could've been written about XTERRA. i was its first bike licensee, and was for its first 3yr i think. i was at the first XTERRA, and the second. now, it's no ironman, but XTERRA has a LOT of entrants worldwide. you... have... to... build... the... brand... and that takes time.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

You must not have read the marketing material about why everywhere there is a McDonald's accross the street is a Burger King, Wendys, etc. The fact is, regardless of Hawaii slots or just plain desire to be at an M-Dot event (be it WTC or NA Sports) they have a proven track record in regards to what they offer at their races, e.g. athlete village, jumbotron, Mike Reilly, top pros, destination races, finishers medals, etc.

It took them a long time to build the brand, less you all forget the M-Dot brand in 1999. Only the past few years have M-Dot races sold out in an hour for 2,300 slots at $450.00 a pop. Why has the GFT iron-distance race numbers dramatically decreased each year when it's held in sunny Clermont, Florida (destination race). Who knows? It's been around 20+ years but never, as I know, slotted more than 500 entrants for the full Ironman. Same for the Duke Blue Devil.

With those type of numbers they cannot offer the same "perks" and glitz as WTC and NA Sports, the market speaks, and they get 300 entrants. It's sort of a catch 22 becuase for most, not the ST small group of hard-core atheltes or wannabees, an M-Dot race somehow means true "Ironman-ness". I thought I read back last summer that 50% of M-Dot entrants are first timers which poses an interesting question only NA Sports and WTC can answer...what happens to those 1st timers who don't race again? or how long until they race again? where? I guess USTA not also has that data as does the timing company. But that data would reflect trends in who races where and how often.

Viability is never (wisely) measured on one race or one season. Sadly, most RD's don't have the cash to sustain 2-3 season building the brand with the required "glitz and glammer" to attract those who desire the M-Dot experience.

Contrary to what some other have posted here One-o-One did advertise in Inside Triathlon, Triathlete, and on numerous boards like this forum and had numerous articles written about their races.

Succuess, even for some RD's is not correlated to raw entrants either. Some, like the Survival of the Shawongunks (New Paltz, NY) have been going on for 22 years with a cap of 150 entrants and are quite happy with those numbers.

If we define succuss as 2,100 entrants in a destination city with Mike Riely announcing the race start with a helicopter overhead, real-time internet updates, chip timing, a great athelte village with seminars and a jumbo-tron then One-o-One did not hit the mark as of yet. Really depends on whose perspective you are seeking...the athelte? the RD? the magazine publisher? the investors?

I have always said in this forum that NA Sports (IMNA) and WTC do a great job filling a niche perfectly (i.e. venue, safety, customer service, etc.). The true quesiton for this debate is how we define succuss.

Yes, you're right. They're not sold out, not booked solid in terms of hotels, not full of athletes taking vacation time for a race and bringing their families. They're also not races that people book their seasons around, or dedicate a year of training to. They're not big events that treat the average Joe like an Olympian. They're just another local race.

Are you kidding me?

In our current climate, in a north american IM does not qualify as a destination race, I don't know what would. Are there any events that are more successful, and in higher demand?

Dan,

If you're "angry", I apologize for that ... but I think you've already pretty much stated that you have financial linkage for the services you've given. If you recieved $0.01, you have a financial linkage .... if you provided all that for free, then I applaud you.
As I stated ... I personally don't really care! I only stated that I feel that those who have financial interest should state so when they voice an influencing opinion .... nothing more/ nothing less. Do you really disagree with that??
Dave

But XTERRA has no competition - the off-road triathlon market was/is not saturated. That's the major difference. XTERRA was a totally new product, but the 101 is just a new variation of a product that's been around for a long time. How does that make it special?

Football players dream of playing in the NFL, not the Arena League, and not the CFL. The NFL is the biggest, most polished, most famous of them all. As is IM. If you're going long (and to the general triathlon public, anything over Olympic is long) then you're going to the big show...IM or 70.3. That's what people dream about racing. It's there, it's real, and it's attainable...people won't look for something they haven't heard of, like 101. To the general triathlon public, do you think they realy care about a 101 race?

With that incredibly, potentially strong indication of possible interest, I'm sure every RD reading this is thinking they may start a double-o race. ;)

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________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

Sorry, i read your explanation incorrectly. your definition of a destination race justifies what you said, however, I would define it completely different and say I don't agree.
The IM brand is a beast until itself and they have shown they can pretty much do whatever they want and the lemmings will keep showing up. Personally, i don't believe it is because people want to 'race' a great course, however, that is just my beliefs. Don't kid yourself though, there are MANY more reasons why IM races sell out other than it is well run event.

"If you recieved $0.01, you have a financial linkage"

your statement was not that i have a financial linkage. your statement was that i "seems biased" and that i am not "objective." you're basically saying my opinions are what they are because i'm on the take.

you also said, "we should just declare financial bias when it exists right up front." that's precisely what i did. you're insinuating i've not done that, but i've done so several times, and this dates back awhile.

the things i've contracted to do basically defray my expenses associated with the work i have to do for them. i make a lot more money doing other things. i make essentially zero doing this. perhaps you think there is no free lunch, nobody works for free, everybody's got an agenda, everybody's on the take. is that the way you operate? me, shit, i don't know, a collie was running in heavy traffic yesterday, i stopped the car, chased the thing, caught it, threw it in the car, called the number on the tag, and delivered it home 3mi away. you would've done the same thing, right? but you wouldn't have gotten paid, and wouldn't have accepted payment had it been offered.

no, these guys aren't a lost dog. well, in a way they are. and that's why i'm helping them. i'd also help graham if he asked.

"If you're "angry", I apologize for that"

i would rather you not hinge your apology to my view of what you said. i would rather you hinge your apology to your own sense of your own words. man up and say you didn't write anything you shouldn't have, or man up and say that you did.

"As I stated ... I personally don't really care!"

yes, well, i personally do really care, because i'm the one you slandered. perhaps if i slander you to those inside your circle of work, you'll care.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

You've heard of Nice Triathlon? Want to take a guess at what the distance was before it became an Ironman, and check who came to Nice to race?

The feedback that I have received is that the 101 serie, once (hopefully) it starts in Europe, will be awfully popular. A lot of the Euros like this distance better. Shorter recovery period, training similar to an IM, etc.

Dan, we all like the idea of the 101 and admire the efforts and risk that the organizers put out, but it is called the "old-nice distance" for a reason.

Using Xterra as an example of "brand buidling" building a business is a real mistake. Xterra is an example of product differentiation (off road triathlon with somewhat different audience) which captured the market opportunity and then created the brand.

you... have... to... build... the... product that the market wants...

"the 101 is just a new variation of a product that's been around for a long time. How does that make it special?"

you could say the very same thing about the ironman. why wildflower and not world's toughest? it's about brand building, and it's about the chasm that exists between the half and the full IM.

i don't know why i'm spending my time debating with people who just have no concept of brand building. do you not think the market has enough soft drinks? candy bar companies? cell phone makers? before geico, were there not sufficient opportunities to insure your car? prior to capitol one, were you not able to get a credit card? before google, did you not know how to search the internet?

in every one of these cases, the market was 'saturated.' yet all these brands found a way to differentiate themselves, and to make the experience special. now, another guy is coming in and trying to give YOU an option, spending a lot of money to do so. perhaps i see it through a prism that is different, because i did the same thing.

i don't know about everybody else, but you and reggiedog deserve to have your $450 taken from you a year in advance.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Of course there are - they sell out for a combination of all factors, most of which IMNA control, and excell at. The IM events offer the total package, moreso than perhaps any other amateur sporting event.

I've been to multiple World Championships, Pan-Am games and Commonwealth Games (no Olympics, sorry) - go so a North American IM event, and there is a bigger buzz there than any of these events, because they're full of verage Joe's doing something special. As a comptitor at an IM, you are the reason for all of it, and unless you're an Olympic caliber athlete, you won't experience that 'big event feel' anywhere else.

Has anyone ever replied to themselves? Well, I just did.

Here is one data point for whatever its worth. After I posted I went to the 101 website and saw that the Woodlands Texas race is on November 11th but then went to see the date on the Silverman 1/2 – same date. Both are far enough from IMOO to be doable if the wheels are okay, can be booked at the last minute and are far enough from January 2008 when I am doing my last expedition climb (under penalty of divorce if there is another one and I am kind of fond of her after 29 years so there won’t be) and I need healthy, strong and rested legs. If I were going to do one (and I probably won’t do either and will be in Stairmill Hell sporting a pack instead) it would be the Silverman 1/2. Why? Shorter distance given IMOO, hills and it has that certain “gene se qua.” If you are going to go, might as well go big. It is the latter factor that concerns me about 101 and brand building. I hope I am wrong.
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Born again Heathen
In Case of Keith Moon - Break This Glass
Ironman Certified Coach
USAT Certified Coach
Precision Nutrition Certified

>>Are there any events that are more successful, and in higher demand? <<

ESCAPE FROM ALCATRAZ

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

I think that great alternatives to other great brands are fantastic.

We seldom hear people criticize BMW for offering an alternative to Mercedes Benz, or Pepsi to Coke...So why should anyone bemoan a long-distance race series as an alternative to IMNA?

I want to one day race at Kona, so I'll cough up the dough one more time to try and get there. But I'm really excited about this race distance.

I like different race distances though, I like Muskoka, I like the Around the Bay 30K in Hamilton and the Soldier Field 10M in Chicago. Sure, the races are longer than your standard Oly or 10K, but they don't present the incredibly difficult, and risky challenge in preparation that characterize Ironmans and Marathons. Its difficult at best to keep the preparation for an Ironman from consuming the life of a working triathlete...And a marathon isn't a piece of cake either. We're pretty much betting all of our marbles when we sign up for IMoo, IMLP or CdA...

Maybe Tri 101 won't ever be the elephant in the room, but it would be nice to have that race series out there.

Since doing my first 30K, I thought it was a great distance because I can do a lot of 2 hour runs. They're manageable week in and week out, but once I try and hit the 2 1/2 hour runs for a marathon prep I really start to feel the pressure and I suspect most have the same experience. If it were possible for a running race and a triathlon to be related, I think the 30K and the 101 distances are.

So we have a challenging event that isn't Ironman. Fantastic. If Tri 101 is trying to be Ironman they'll fail and I really doubt that's their goal. But if they want to take something from Ironman, they should take the spirit of the World Championship venue--racing in paradise. Paradise, The Woodlands, Texas is not.

Really, I hope that the distance and their brand isn't "too smart" for their customers.

And paradise, er...I mean, The Woodlands is on my calendar.

"you... have... to... build... the... product that the market wants..."

like... a... what? a cup of coffee? who knew beforehand that starbucks would sell $3 coffee on every streetcorner? any pent up need for that expressed in the marketplace prior to starbucks' launch?

what we have now is that pent up need, in fact people are standing in line a year in advance for that cup of coffee. there certainly is the need. and the market. the question is, will 101 be the answer? i don't know. it depends on how well they execute.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Dan,

I re-read my post that offended you and I honestly don't see what "slandered" you. I have no intention to do that. I have not seen a prior disclosure of your interests with 101 but I don't read every post by a long ways ... if you say you have declared, then thats fine by me. You clearly are an advocate of 101. I have no financial interest at all in any event except as a competitor.
You and I would both save the dog for free ... we could both agree on that! If you feel that I need to man up for something ... I apologize for what you feel slandered you ... that was not my intent.
You must be a good guy because you obviously could just delete me from your site if you chose. Not being on ST would clearly have saved me some time this morning!!
Best Regards,
Dave

The bottom line is that in a race, field size does matter... there are minimum costs to put on a race regardless of field size (you still need XXX number of various things people, official (paid) support, etc. whether you have 140 or 2000+.

Small field size puts more pressure on sponsorship money...but sponsors expect large numbers of racers, spectators and publicity in return for their investment...small field sizes dissuade sponsors, which leads to a vicious financial downward spiral...

first year races tend to haver lower registration, and educated sponsors know that and will let it go and grow with the event if it grows as well....

Obviously the sport is starting to get satuated with races...as another poster stated, a "contraction" in number of races should be expected (not necessarily 1 o 1).

What RDs / new races need to to is some actual market research before starting an event....this is a business and if theyr run it like that, their chance of succeeding will increase

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"We will either find a way, or make one." -- Hannibal, General of the Carthaginian Army

i don't know why i'm spending my time debating with people who just have no concept of brand building. do you not think the market has enough soft drinks? candy bar companies? cell phone makers? before geico, were there not sufficient opportunities to insure your car? prior to capitol one, were you not able to get a credit card? before google, did you not know how to search the internet? And these are products that hundreds of millions of people use daily. Average people. EVERYONE eats candy bars, drinks pop, uses cell phones, insures their car, uses credit cards. Poor comparison. i see it through a prism that is different, because i did the same thing.
"Did" the same thing. No offence Dan, but you did it at a time when the climate was different. These guys aren't pioneers of the triathlon industry like you were. They're not on board when a sew sport is growing, and they're not one of the only providers of races. You did your thing when there weren't more options than athletes. You keep bringing up the old days...old Kona, Old-nice triathlon, QR days, Xterra. But this is a different climate, and there is a major brand out there now that commands all of the attention. Ironman is a household name, and that's what people associate with triathlon. It's branding at it's finest. 101 is a flawed business model, in almost every way. Do you think it would would be as easy to build QR now, as it was 20 years ago? Instead of building a new product, you'd be trying to take market share away form established guys like Cervelo or Trek, for what is essentially the same product. It's a different climate in today's triathlon world. Remember the "24 Hours of Adrenalin?" It was a huge mountain bike race series, responsible in large part for the mountain bike boom. It build up a brand, but in the end it went bankrupt because it didn't realize that even with thousands of new MTB riders, there were only so many who were interested in endurance events. How many of these new triathletes that are part of this boom really care about long course? And what percentage of them, if they do a long course, will NOT choose an IM or 70.3?

Another destination race.

This been one of the most interesting I have seen in a long time, and no real personal attacks. Amazing.

I wish any RD who tries to start a long distance race, or series, all the luck in the world. Just seems like ST is a good place to start to test the waters.
If this group, with the majority, does not get excited and SIGN UP for the events, not a good sign. As I said, I cancelled my IMcda and lost big bucks
to go to something that fit better into my goals. Shorter with top notch competition, and close to my home. It is my goal race to try and get into
for next year to, since it will still be on the west coast.

Maybe there is no more room for another "brand" event for triathlon? But, it has to be more than distance, or I just do not see how it can succeed, but
it is not my money making the bet.

I wish the 101 folks the best of luck. Shall be an interesting business case to watch, succeed or fail.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Not for all the NorCal people clammering to get into the race.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

You're right, if you can't get a rush of people on ST to race, then it's a pretty fair indicator of how it will go out in the triathlon world.

I'd be willing to bet that if IM branded a 101-type race, that it would experience more success than what we see. At least the people would have something to identify this distance with, and that's the IM brand.

[reply]You're right, if you can't get a rush of people on ST to race, then it's a pretty fair indicator of how it will go out in the triathlon world.

I'd be willing to bet that if IM branded a 101-type race, that it would experience more success than what we see. At least the people would have something to identify this distance with, and that's the IM brand.[/reply]

I would agree with you on the branding side of things. The IM brand and name are quite powerful and recognizable. In terms of their product though, I can't understand why people want to continue to enter races where there is rampant drafting, overcrowding on the swim and bike and a horrible refund/transfer policy.
Like Dan keeps saying though, this series wasn't built overnight and the desire for the 101 distance is there. Like Francois pointed out, there is a stir over in Europe for a race like this since the ITU ditched it.
I will go on record and say they will succeed and I will be racing Halifax next year. Can't wait!
Mark

That´s beacuse the Almere organizers for 2008 will cancel their hosting of the ITU Worlds LD if ITU wouldn´t let them run it on its original 4-120-30 which was the distance in effect when they bid for Championship.

That, and the massive support for the 4-120-30, have caused ITU to review their decision to shorten their longdistance. The jury is still out on this but Worlds for 08´will for certain be on the "old" distance.

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I think I got some of my info incorrect. Funny thing is, the ITU website www.triathlon.org has the 2007 long course champs as double olympic and the 2008 long course champs in Holland as triple olympic....hmmm.

Weighing in as the minority, I try to do at least one different event every year (not limited to triathlons). I do come back to a few that are fun but I like trying different things. At least with the 101, you can say " I haven't done that before." Who knows, maybe it will suit my physiology perfectly.

On the other hand, I don't think they plan to have beer at the end like Crazylegs (anyone else miss having the mass start?).

Now Starbucks as a model for 101 sucess?!

Every example you have used to support the 101 plan would flunk a first year business school course. Xterra is a different product; Gieco is a marketing machine (with truly lower rates); Starbucks is an "aspirational" brand (people pay money, instead of earning it, to feel richer) and a meeting place.

The guys at Tri1-0-1, bless their efforts, are losing a boatload of money based on an incredibly flawed analysis of the marketplace.

People want:

A challenging race.

A safe course.

Stocked and staffed aid stations.

Great Schwag.

People cheering them on.

To say the did an Ironman.

Crap. Well it seems Tri 101 endeavors to provide all except one. And 5 outta 6 ain't bad. Right?

Tri 101 will have to tell people what they want. And then tell people why what they want is Tri 101.

"The guys at Tri1-0-1, bless their efforts, are losing a boatload of money based on an incredibly flawed analysis of the marketplace."

you and i have never agreed on anything else, bless your heart, so why would we agree on this?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"On the other hand, I don't think they plan to have beer at the end"

i know i plan on having a beer at the end. and a couple during (but then i'm doing the play-by-play, and i suspect it'll help my spontaneity -- tho probably not my speling).

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I think one of the other things to think about is this....

Do IM in North America selling out in hrs mean that there are thousands of additional people banging on the door to race? Or, does it mean that there is the hype that makes people think there are thousands waiting to sign up?

I'd venture to say that it's the latter. Great races, but I'm not so sure that just because a race sells out in a couple of hrs, that means there is a much bigger demand. We'll see, if more IM's come on line. If there were thousands of additional athletes REALLY wanting to compete at the longer distances, you'd see them at Silverman, GFT, etc....

I'm not convinced that the IM market isn't close to being saturated. I'm sure everyone will disagree because of the almost immediate sellouts, but the IM market isn't that big.....What will be the tipping point? 1 more IM? 2 more????

Guys and gals, there AREN'T that many of us out there. Being in the ST bubble colors our logic on this stuff....imo...

Yep, I see a number of races that used to fill up, or fill up fast that no longer seem to. Wonder why?

Wildflower, Donner, SJIT are ones that come to mind.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

"Do IM in North America selling out in hrs mean that there are thousands of additional people banging on the door to race?"

let me put it this way. baby boomers populated triathlon in the 80s. then they got older, and triathlon ebbed. now baby boomers' children are in high school, or college, or out of college. they are about ready to join, and are joining, this sport. this in part accounts for the run-up in triathlon in this decade. demographics alone will help push this sport upward, we just have to be smart about how we manage our growth.

were there to be another ironman, and another, so that we eventually had 12 north american ironmans, i think 10 or 11 would sell out, and rather quickly. maybe all 12 would sell out. i think each of these races absorbs its field as they are incrementally added.

graham fraser has been saying there is a limited number of people, much smaller than anyone thinks, who wants to do these races, and he's been saying that since there were 5 of them in north america. maybe he's right. but that limited number keeps growing. it's always going to be a finite number, but, it keeps growing.

me, i believe in our sport. i think it's a great sport, for a lot of reasons. perhaps i have more faith in our sport than others do. maybe more faith than i should have. a few years ago a guy who occasionally writes for us, jeff henderson, decided to put on a half-IM. it's not a 70.3. he was and is on his own. i knew he would be a success, because he's a quality guy. last year he got 550 in his half, along with 450 in his sprint. actually 1,043 altogether. this year he's expanding a bit, hoping to get 1200. his race is musselman, in upstate NY.

if you're smart, patient, quality-minded, shrewd, ambitious, and service-oriented, you'll succeed. it may take you several years, you have to be prepared for that, but you'll carve your niche. it's not about having it be the right distance, or your date on the calendar. it's about working until your property is built. jeff will eventually have 1500 people at his race weekend, i have no doubt. there's room for good races and good RDs.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Case in point, IM Canada and Ironman Louisville, same date 2007, 08/26/07. First year for KY race and 25th for Canadian race. Canada by NA Sports and Louisville by WTC. Both sold out. I beleive KY sold out in 7 weeks or so. That means, given the typical 10% overage for "no-shows", 4,600 paid entrants. Cleary, the demand for M-Dot races exisits, be it same date or same city. And your right on with buidling a quality race as Timberman sells out consistantly, even prior to M-Dot affiliation. The question is why do so many top AG's, pro's and the locus of the sport (MOP/BOP) continue to enter M-Dot races at such speed to the loss of other non-M-Dot and long distance races. Will this occur with 70.3 brand and Clearwater in 5-10 years? Is it the perception of the race or the actual race that matters. Only WTC, NA Sports, Lifetime, etc who do serious "exit polling" and analyze the results really know the true buy-in trends.

With the latest hubbub over Basso's admitance/non-admittance, Floyd's ongoing saga, the Barry Bonds thing, etc., why weren't the pros at Bradenton tested? With that type of prize purse it'd be awfully tempting for someone to take advantage of the situation...

Your opinions & viewpoint about marketing are well-supported in this statement: "Every example you have used to support the 101 plan would flunk a first year business school course". Interesting that you'd compare sitting in a classroom with actually being out in the real world and running a bonafide business.

One of the first things I learned in econ 101 was the theory of supply and demand. When Starbucks started there was not a market for coffee like there is today -- they capitalized on what was existing and grew demand via product offering (e.g. there's a different fuffy drink for everyday of the week). Coffee used to just come a couple ways, and everyone was ok with that until Starbucks came along and offered something else.

With triathlon it appears that there's currently plent of demand for well-run longer distance races; now it's a matter of supply. How do you capture the demand? Build a brand. Any successful marketer will concur. Few more close-to-home examples: How did Zipp get so big? Haven't there always been wheel providers? How about Cervelo? Seems like C-dale Trek have been around for a long time. And Hed? Zoot? Could it be the brands they developed?

BTW, I worked on the first Xterra USA Championship race (from a marketing side, no less) and saw how limited (and very local) the first race was. The growth they accomplished via creating really solid awareness - top tier races & destinations, gear, lifestyle TV show, "tribe" website, etc -- is a model for any niche company to follow.

This is the smartest statement in this entire thread. KJ gets it, but unfortunately most others here don't.

that's the point that the market is saying about 101...it isn't much different...or different enough than what is already in the market...starbucks offered something truly 'different'; pre-starbucks there were generally two options: non-make your own or buy 'diner' coffee...starbucks offered a totally new coffee 'experience' - different coffee (high end) and a vey different experience (more conveneince and unique atmosphere)...starbucks started small, with one shop, too...but their different product was wanted elsewhere, so they grew...shultz, the founder of starbucks, saw that 'everyone was not ok with that"...101 is showing that everyone is ok with the existing tri offerings...likewise xterra filled a need that was out there for off road tri...

In response to Slowman, I'd totally agree that if you create an excellent race, treat people right, your race will succeed. I've been an entrepreneur since I graduated from College (something about having to wear a suit and tie really bothered me:)), and have owned 3 businesses. All three were successes....

Why? Because I worked my ass off, cared about what I did, had a passion for it, and delivered a great product to the customer. I don't consider myself any more intelligent than the next guy...Really, it's not rocket science, and it's the same thing in triathlon. Of course, longterm, the races that really deliver a great product to the athlete will succeed. Musselman is a great race, and will continue to grow/thrive. As will other races. I'm a firm believer in this, otherwise I wouldn't have added two HIM weekends this year. I have complete and utter confidence in what we do, and what we'll provide the athlete.

IMO, that's not truly the point. It's more about supply. There are quite a few long course athletes out there. BUT, I still think there are too many long course races for them all to succeed. That's true of any business model. Supply and demand. If your business is good, it'll survive. It may take a while, though, and you may need deep pockets to survive the lean times. Eventually, the great races will prosper...With 101, it's probably more a question of whether they can weather 3-4 years of 200-300 athletes.

My basic belief is, for most of us, if you wanna go long you want the hype and excitement that only comes with racing with 1500 other athletes, and all of the spectators it brings with it. Most non-MDOT IMs can't capture the excitement because there are 100 people racing. 100 people racing means about 200 spectators, given that it's generally only family that's coming out to watch this stuff....Face it, folks, even at a high profile MDot, the people watching are family and friends, not the general public. This stuff just ain't that exciting to watch:)

So, it's the chicken/egg thing....How do you build the hype and excitement with only 150 athletes? It's tough, and it has a direct impact on the athletes experience.

The biggest mistake that 101 made was coming to Florida for the first race. There are a number of Florida RD's who have been putting on races for the past 20 years that would NEVER have attempted to put a race up against St. Anthony's, Gulf Coast and the Florida 70.3.

101 could have been the best race in the world with a great course, great value to athletes, etc. but going against established events with only a 4-5 month ramp up just was not a smart move.

When we started the Whirlpool Steelhead Triathlon 4 years ago, we looked at the 1/2 iron distances races around a five state area. We stayed away from Muncie and Ironman Wisconsin. It still took 3 years to grow the race, but at least we did not have to go up against establised events.

Z

I'd agree....Every race we start, we make sure there aren't other established races around those dates....Just out of respect for other RD's, I think it's the right thing to do. From a business perspective, it's pretty smart too...:)

Again, it gets back to the big increase in # of races...There aren't too many dates available now that don't conflict with other events....

Mussleman suceeded because it has a good time and place; there are/were no 1/2 IM conflicts in all of July anywhere near that location. You had Eagleman, Tupper Lake and Harriman in the early season and then Timberman, FIRMman, Montauck in the late season. There was a BIG hole waiting to be filled. So he stuck his race smack in the middle of July, weeks away from anything else.

"why weren't the pros at Bradenton tested?"

the way the system works these days, drug testing is (almost) totally out of the hands of RDs. it's under the purview of USADA (if the race is in america). what happens is that USAT and USADA get together before the season and decide what races are going to have testing. it's some smattering of short course, long, ITU-style, etc., so the RD has no input into that.

but that's not entirely true. you'll remember the brief time when WTC was out sanctioning and insuring itself. one of the reasons it left, and one of the issues upon its return, was that it wanted testing at all its races. so there is a fund into which WTC pays, and through a commingling of its funds with USAT's funds, the testing occurs at most if not all the U.S. races.

AFAIK, no other RD does this. and of course it's an open question how much WTC actually pays, that is, it may pay nothing, it may pay almost all of it. i don't know how that negotiation went. but that's how it works.

if you think there should be drug testing at a 101 event, then you should address this with USAT, not with 101. if i'm USAT, i'm probably going to choose to wait until i know the 101 is a going concern. OTOH, maybe i'm going to fool some pros and pick one of these races.

i would like to see a program laid out for RDs, where they can in fact pay into a fund, to add to the moneys USADA pays for testing. there's plenty of capacity for testing, now that there's a second WADA lab going in the U.S. (in utah). i think it would be great if triathlon became the most tested sport there is, not because it's dirty, but because it's clean and wants to stay that way.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I love it when folks talk about Econ 101 this or what I learned in my MBA program that.
While it is imperative to have the background knowledge to be prepared for the real world, once you get into the real world be prepared to throw everything you learned in school out the window....well maybe not everything but time and time again we have seen businesses flourish when they really shouldn't have.
At least they are trying....Glad to see you guys are all happy with having a monopoly in the long distance arena. What do your business courses say about monopolies?

Hey Marcus, the point I was making about econ 101 is that you don't need a b-school degree to figure out marketing. MBA grads are a dime a dozen, and quite honestly, many have spent too much time studying and not enough time doing it in the real world. I would hire someone with practical expereince much faster than someone with another diploma.

BTW, I'm on your side with this. I think 101 is a good thing and has the opportunity to develop into a viable race series. The more options the better for us as a tri community. Can't seem to figure out why so many people on this board are planning for the demise of 101, when at the same time they bitch about M-Dot's cost and having to sign up a year in advance.

"going against established events with only a 4-5 month ramp up just was not a smart move."

yeah, i never understood it. i could never figure that out. i asked them why it was so imperitive to put a race on there, at that time, with so little time to get the execution ducks in a row, and little time to allow people to train for the event, once they become aware of it and decide to do it.

now, of course, it's all clear to them. i can't figure out why it wasn't clear before. if all that time could've been spent ramping up clear lake, things would've gone smoother.

but, i don't think it's indicative of anything other than an isolated mistake against the backdrop of an otherwise sound plan, and a history of well-produced events. they were stubborn and wrong. having been in the tri biz for 20 years, i "stubborn" and "wrong" are two attributes occasionally found in even the most successful of my contemporaries (me included).

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

it was more of a general comment towards all the business experts out there. Not you specifically. :)

Not relevant. The long distance race market is not a monopoly. Oligopoly, yes, but then so are most of the markets in the U.S.
--------------

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Born again Heathen
In Case of Keith Moon - Break This Glass
Ironman Certified Coach
USAT Certified Coach
Precision Nutrition Certified

The one smart move they did make was hiring TJ, a veteran Florida RD - without him, the Bradenton race would not have happened. Z

[reply][font "Times New Roman"][size 3]Not relevant. The long distance race market is not a monopoly. Oligopoly, yes, but then so are most of the markets in the U.S. [/size][/font]
[font "Times New Roman"][size 3]--------------[/size][/font][/reply]

I would say in some parts they have the qualities of a Oligopoly however, this caught my attention.
"Oligopolistic markets are characterized by interactivity. The decisions of one firm influence, and are influenced by the decisions of other firms. Strategic planning by oligopolists always involves taking into account the likely responses of the other market participants"

The IM folks aren't influenced by anyone other than themselves since they are the only game in town. There may be other smaller races but there is no other long distance race series company like them.

My feeling was that they were very aggressive when announcing the series and that's why there is the animosity from some, at least on this forum.

I'm not a marketing guy. Is that just the way you have to do business these days?

In Bradenton, the 101 organizers and staff were very approachable, helpful and humble.

Hmmm...interesting. Thanks for the info, I didn't know that's how it works.

Can you give an example of a business that "flourished" in the "real world" where there wasn't a clear need in the marketplace?

Supply and demand is a fundamental principal in the "real world".

Can you explain how the 101 series is being successful running counter to Econ 101?

Dan, do you consider the full Vineman a well run, successful race? Clearly it is well run. It has been around for a long time.
But, I do not believe they ever get that many folks. I wonder if folks would rather do a race like vineman, or 101?
It shall be interesting, but are most real smart 20 year experienced successful business folks stubborn? Seems to me the real
good ones would have a good business plan. And, seems they would have come to a place like ST before they made decisions and
asked this community what they wanted.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

There are thousands of businesses that created a demand for their product - CNN, Playstation, running shoes, Apple, Mp3 player, the squeeze ball sitting on my desk, legos, PDAs, hair gel, $30 Riddel crystal wine glasses, etc. The list is endless. And one could easily argue that each of these companies created a market for their product, instead of relying on pent-up demand.

"do you consider the full Vineman a well run, successful race?"

i've never been to it. but it's an andy robles race, isn't it? he runs his races well.

"I wonder if folks would rather do a race like vineman, or 101?"

i think anyone who puts on a race over the IM distance is always going to be a "fake" IM. i think you're just building somebody else's brand every time you put on a fake edition of the race, because you highlight the fact that there are real ones out there.

if triathlon is viable, and strong, and has legs, it can support another brand. whether it's 101, metric-101, double-oly, half-101, triple-oly, or just a bunch of geography specific courses of varying distances, the key is to build a strong brand. terry davis has a series, none of his races look like the other, none of them are of the same distance, but his tricalifornia races are a "brand" he's built, through mini-branding every event.

there is nothing that indicated that rock 'n roll marathons around the country would've been the successes they've become. it's not about the competition, or the race calendar, or the pent-up demand or lack thereof. it's not about whether to grow it incrementally, grass roots, internally funding your race through fiscal discipline, versus the all-out, big-time, hit the ground running approach. some big, important races were built over time (timberman). others, like rock 'n roll marathon, were launched as high-dollar enterprises right out the gate.

you just have to always think in terms of the brand, what it means, execute your plan well, let your business guide you toward smart decisions, and have a large reserve of nerve and grit. but putting on a IM distance race without being an IM violates what i think is a key ingredient toward building your own brand.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

[reply][reply]
/reply]

Can you give an example of a business that "flourished" in the "real world" where there wasn't a clear need in the marketplace?

Supply and demand is a fundamental principal in the "real world".

Can you explain how the 101 series is being successful running counter to Econ 101?[/reply]

I won't bother since any example I will give someone will pipe in with "oh but you forgot about this or that". I don't believe I said that the 101 series is being successful yet but if I did, please feel free to point it out.
My point is that for every theory and law you learn in school, there absolutely are exceptions to every rule. I am sure you business dudes could shoop me up and down all day long citing this and that about business rules and practices, but sometimes the real world just doesn't realize it is suppose to adhere to everything we learn in school.

Joe

The point is that while there are "exceptions to every rule" they really don't happen nearly as often as lore has it - "sometimes" is a heck of a lot rarer than one is lead to believe.

There just doesn't seem to be a case for "another" triathlon distance, unlike a new 24hr news channel or a much better video game console.

"Build it and they will come" was a movie about ghosts who didn't have any place to play.

oops, sorry about above, gotta figure out the quote thing!

I agree with Dan on this except the maybe the point about "your date on the calendar" as this isn't a deal breaker but can make the first few years a grind depending on # of other races & their quality/history. eg. last weekend


Ziebart, and I can't believe I'm saying this Tom, made a valid point that dropping a race in one of the busiest months in the Florida schedule was probably the biggest gaff. The second being anytime you have a short window for reg. it also means that you have a short window for planning, permits etc.. - obvious but there a reasons that we won't ever know all the scoop as to the rush to start in Dec. for 2007. If 800 people had shown up on that bike course it would have been an interesting race for sure.

The days of putting out a race and having a casual attitude to athlete feedback are over in the eyes of those RD's who get it. Times have changed and athletes now have a heck of a lot more race options and shouldn't have to put up with poor venues, no volunteers, crap swag and a less than welcoming approach from a RD and his/her crew. I am still surprised when our athletes tell me about a jerk RD who won't speak kindly or professionally to them when they ask "newbie" questions etc.

"It all starts with a course" is a favorite expression of a guy I know from Grimsby and I agree. Fleck mentioned it often isn't the distances put on, look at Muskoka, but whether or not once people finish they are impressed by the challenge of a course, scenery, lack of 5-6 loops, a PB course or whatever great points they could find on the day combined with a well managed and well supported event.

The next few years should be interesting as races compete for the customer base (God I hate to sound corporate) that is out there. Larger companies, such as HFP, have a better chance to weather the storm and some races that don't get an increase in numbers each year might not be around in a couple of years as they don't want to end up making .10$/hr to host 150 people - we'll see.

Have fun wherever you decide to race, even Stealhead, and see you out there
Joe

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Joe Dixon
Race Director
Westwood Lake, Oliver Half & Aquabike,
"Wine Capital of Canada" Tri, Elk Lake and Cultus Lake Triathlons
http://www.dynamicraceevents.com

We'll see.

Do we need another cell phone provider? Another fast food chain? Airline? Car company? Mortgage company? Insurance? Running shoe? Cable channel? PC manufacturer? Sports drink?

How many examples do you need of marketplaces where new companies have entered with something slightly different and been successful?

Thats fine if you market is the potential of the entire population. But, if your market max is a very small sub set of the population, ....

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Here is what a person in the sports marketing business would say about that:

• Rock and Roll Marathons were a slam-dunk: brought marathons to a whole new market for the consumers (walkers) and packaged a "festival" for the city (like a "Taste of the town").
• Timberman started at a time - and place - when/where there was not a lot of competition and built their "brand" by being in the right place at the right time at the beginning of a growth phase for the sport, allowed them to capture a market (lots of repeat customers and good location for lack of competition)
• Triathlon is actually a "mature-growth" market - it is growing, yes, but it the supply and demand is fairly well-established and new suppliers have difficulty a real challenge distinguishing themselves. Don't you think? Are their many new races that have grown a lot in the last few years, compared to all the new races that have been added to the calendar?

I really think all this talk about "brand building" is way off the mark. This sport isn't like toothpaste, where people regularly by it at the same local store and see Crest and Colgate and Rembrandt side-by-side, so they might switch if you sell them hard enough. Just because Wildflower or Auburn have great brands, I live on the East Coast, have a pretty full schedule and see plenty of similar events all over the place, which prevents me from going to either one or the other very often. Wildflower has a great brand because of the nude specators and vodka at aid stations. ;-)

The "product" that fits participants "need" is not really a "brand" thing, no matter how hard it is marketed. People, I think, "buy" based on race 1) distance & calendar, the 2) location, then 3) event "type". Yes, 3# includes "brand", but the primary reason for attending is not really brand. If a new entrant can't distinguish itself in #1 & #2, then it is very expensive to build a brand. Look at the money spent in the late 1990's on brand building internet companies. Most all of them were mistaken.

Think of it like this. There is a professor here at the University who loves triathlons. He hasn't had a whole lot of success in the IM distance but loves the long stuff. When he heard about this distance/race series, he flipped because as he explained to me:
1. The distances aren't as long and as taxing on "the old boys" body as an IM is.
2. he won't have to train like a madman and miss all that time with his family. Especially on the weekend. he can spend more time doing other things.

personally, i believe there is a niche there ripe for the taking of a bunch of older fellas that don't/can't do the IM distance anymore but want to go longer than a half.
But like I said, we'll see.

"I really think all this talk about "brand building" is way off the mark."

Brand building is relevant to the long term success of any business, no matter what the industry. Let's look more closely at Timberman and what KJ has done with his business--since I think its a prime example of a company leveraging their brand to penetrate new geographies.

Year after year Keith and his team have put on high quality races. He has built a reputation for managing through crisis situations (weather, etc.) exceptionally well and has earned the trust and respect of his customers. Endorfun Sports, is the KJ brand. That brand is emblematic of safety, customer service, value, and consistency. Again, attributes that have been built over time, from day one.

In my N=1 case, I didn't think twice about signing-up for the inaugrial Lonestar triathlon, a race that was half-way across the country for me. The reason--I trusted the brand, I knew that this race would meet my requirements as a consumer. I knew that if something came up that it would likely be handled in the proper manner (and in this case, weather was an issue, but as expected ES came through again).

If your a local RD that puts on one race a year, and have a favorable spot on the calendar, then you probably will get enough athletes to turn a small profit--assuming there is some sort of consistency to your offering--without focusing too much on brand building. However, if your trying to battle with the titan of the sport, grow your top-line, and generate a reasonable return to your investors, then you had best be focused acutely on your brand and brand building strategies, otherwise, you are going to be DOA.

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"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

>>Rock and Roll Marathons were a slam-dunk:<<

Actually, that's not true. The very first RNR marathon was a total FIASCO. People were pissed off about the hour delayed start, no water on the course until about mile 8, the lack of bands on the course (after promising one every mile), and I don't remember what else, but email lists and bulletin boards were lit up like Christmas with complaints. They weathered that storm and made changes and have grown the series since then. But at least one person at the first one (me) hasn't been back.

clm

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

<<"do you consider the full Vineman a well run, successful race?"

i've never been to it. but it's an andy robles race, isn't it? he runs his races well. <<

No, it's Russ Pugh and Dave L. (Trifaster). And yes, they run their races VERY well.

clm

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

Joe - Very well put! You might not post often, but when you do, it is always a good point! Good luck with your planning for the 25th Ironman Canada event. I'm looking forward to it! Z

You are confusing market position with "execution". Big difference!

The R&R's were a slam dunk from a "need in the market" perspective because they addressed several "new customers" at one time: non-racing "marathoners", host venues and even the bands were given an audience that they don't normally get.

Certainly there is a niche. But both armchair analysis and the market seems to be saying it is likely too small to support much of a business.

Both 'rookie mistakes,' from guys that aren't rookies. People can keep talking about how "it will succees, it just needs time," but the guys that operate in the real world of triathlon (KJ, Joe, Ziebart and even myself as a small RD) see these mistakes for what they are...poor planning. How many business models succeed in spite of poor planning? Not many. How many events succeed in spite of poor planning? Not many.

Really, from a business approach, and from a common sense approach, it's not difficult to look at some of the things 101 has done and think "what the hell were they thinking?!?!?!"

How many people do you know say they do an Endorfun, an NAS, a TriColumbia, a TriCal, like they say "I drive a Ford", "I love Ralph", "Meet you at Starbucks" or "Come to my house and we'll play on the Playstation" Those are "brands."

Triathletes do races/events (models) not brands: "I'm doing Timberman", "...Ironman Lake Placid", "...Wildflower", "...Eagleman"

I don't hear anyone call the name of the race by the parent company brand. And I doubt very much that more than 10% of the participants care about the parent company brand.

"I'm training for Ironman."

or

"I do triathlons." "Oh, you mean that Ironman thing?"

You just defeated your entire argument. M-Dot is the perfect example of a brand. When you say "I'm doing an Ironman" people assume it's Kona. That's the very definition of the strength of a brand, and why WTC and NA Sports have the stranglehold on long distance triathlons. It's why any business has to develop a brand to succeed, be it in the mass or niche markets.

"Really, from a business approach, and from a common sense approach, it's not difficult to look at some of the things 101 has done and think "what the hell were they thinking?!?!?!"

And to my point, these type of mistakes have negatively impacted 101's fledgling brand equity with consumers. Is it the end of the world? No, not in the short-term, it just means that they have to work that much harder to prove the concept and gain acceptance from racers.

The downside of course is that your dealing with a business that includes a lot of fixed costs, so your marginal customer is that much more important. In other words, you only get so many chances to get this thing off the ground.

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"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

Huh? So the all the other triathlons in the country without a parent company brand name are doomed to failure?

Ironman is the ONLY brand in the sport, from what I can tell. WTC/NAS put on less than .1% of all the races in the country, yet many of the other 99.9% of races are, in most cases successful without a leading brand name.

Endorfun, TriColumbia, TriCalifornia, are successful companies (I hope) by their individual events, not their brand name.

We're talking about brands. Ironman, WF, Roth, Accenture, Escape from Alcatraz, etc, all sell out faster and/or have more participants than the remaining 99.8% of races out there. Not to mention that most of the other races are geared towards a regional audience, and are not trying to attract the "destination" racer like 101 is.

I guess you've missed my points all along. I hope every other race succeeds and I support/race some of them just like I do M-Dot, and will for 101 -- it's better for all of us.

Either way you parse the words it doesn't change the dynamics of whats going on--which is the success of a product, company, and person because of brand building.

In the case of EndorfunSports, I know that everytime I go to timbermantri.com that is the first logo I see. I know that that is Keith Jordan's company and that that company puts on the Timberman, Mooseman, etc. I know that those races are put on by KJ and his team with a high degree of professionalism and consistency.

So whether I thinking about KJ, the race director, my upcoming race at Mooseman, or that quasi-techno music intro that I hear everytime the Endorfun logo pops up on the website, I think of quality(among the other attirubtes I have already mentioned).

There is total continuity across brands in this regard and that is extremely valuable.

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"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

...they sure didnt help themselves with their first effort...mistakes were made...with low entrant numbers they have damaged their event/series reputation...and likely lost a bundle of money....they created a buzz but its not a good one....I would be wary of the series now, it has the image of failure...and I was one that predicted that a event of this distance would be a success....whether I ws wrong or it was more about execution the number of entrants was dismal...

I cant understand why people that want to build a series/brand like this would not start with ONE event....do it well, put all your resources in marketing it making sure you have enough time to execute well and then add other races after the ONE oneoone race is deemed something special and unique...I dont understand why someone who test a new concept like this with a high risk, nationwide, costly national series that exposes them to to much risk...why the hurry?....I think they gambled and lost....

My point is that we should NOT be talking about "brands" since there is so little evidence that "building a brand" is the key to success for making an event successful. In fact, it seems clear that "brand" is not all that important for the success of an event. Yes, IM was the brand that launched the sport, but it occupies a completely unique category, which is ~1% of all triathlon races in the country.

The point is that all this talk about brands doesn't explain the reason for the success of the vast majority of the sport. And when entering a market, the first thing you should do is understand and copy (if you can) the things that make the average vendor successful. After that, then you can worry about less important issues.

they sure didnt help themselves with their first effort...mistakes were made...with low entrant numbers they have damaged their event/series reputation...

Not so according to this.....

http://www.teamtbb.com/hillarybiscay/

...The race organization went surprisingly well for a first-time race. I could not believe how attentive and helpful all of the volunteers were before the race that morning; it made our lives very easy....

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---------------------------------------
Awww, Katy's not all THAT evil. Only slightly evil. In a good way. - JasoninHalifax

I wasnt talking about how well the race was done....I am talking the damage done because no one showed for an event that portrays itself as a "big deal"....the damage was done before the starting gun....

can they recover from this?....I am betting not....

Not so according to this.....

http://www.teamtbb.com/hillarybiscay/






I interviewed a lot of the pros after the race, and virtually all of them thought the event went well. The heat killed a lot of them, but that is not the events fault, otherwise Ironman would be the worst offender of that one. And low numbers in this first race, is not a big deal. The big deal is, that they put it on in short notice, and paid all their bills, immediatley. Was it illconcieved, probably. But they stuck to their committment, bit the bullet, and made sure that those that did enter, had a great expirence. Only a company that plans to be in it for the long haul would do this, otherwise they would just have cut their losses and cancelled the event. They will see a steady increase in numbers at each event this year, and with a year to plan, will have many putting them on their calendars next year. They do need to look at the schedule and try and not conflict with some of the classic races like Wildflower and St Croix though......

see above comment.....Hillary's site is popular....

I wasnt talking about how well the race was done....I am talking the damage done because no one showed for an event that portrays itself as a "big deal"....the damage was done before the starting gun.... \\




What damage are you talking about exactly?? We all know and have talked about why the numbers were low for this first race, but honestly, what damage does that do? Is anyone out there less likely to enter one of the next 3 races because their was only 150 at the first one?? IS that your criteria for entering an event, the numbers that were at some other one? I don't believe for one moment that that has one bit of influence on a persons decision to do some other event. I think that they did themselves a lot of good having the event, in spite of the numbers, showing a willingness to forge ahead with their plan, until they can get over the hump... People that were there, seemed to have a great time, and were happy with the race. It will only get better from there.....

Good post - as I was reading this thread I thought of Survival of the Shawangunks. This is a fantastic race that is really unique on a beautiful course within 90-minutes of NYC at a perfect time of year - beginning of September. Plus, many have heard of this race, it has a 'hardcore' reputation, and they give you cool stuff for finishing - a bag, towel, and a great t-shirt at the "Survivor Line." You have to qualify to get in. Did I mention that the finish line was on a mountain top. So why does this race not sell out within 20-minutes of registration opening? IM events get more than the 150 people that can get into SOS within 20-seconds.

I'm not sure what the answer is, but I think people like standardized distances. A friend of mine who is a running race director did a poll to find out if he should put on a unique 4.5 mile race through a scenic area on a very hilly course, or a 'flat and fast' 5K. I was the only one who voted for the 4.5 mile race. I think people like to race and try to beat there best time or a achieve a good time over a standardized distance. I think this is too bad for triathlon - one of the neat things about triathlon is that it started out as a kind of Maverick sport. Moses did not come down with tablets proclaiming triathlons shall be raced at 70.3 or 140.6 miles. But unless a race is raced over these distances, I think its a lot harder to get people to enter. I hope 101 suceeds, and I hope there are other alternatives - how about a race in which all 3 sports are equally weighted - maybe a 2.5-mile swim, 40K-bike, and 15K run? Or more races of Alcatraz-distance?

yes, it is for long course triathlon...and this type of event...and I am not alone...I put all the time and effort to train for it I want a big field to play with....

on the flip side I am doing a sprint adventure race this weekend with 50 people in the race I am doing....and a 25K trail run the next weekend with probably 150...different deal....

we're still in the infancy of brandbuilding...

No, people don't come and say they're "doing an EndorFUN", BUT they DO KNOW that if it's an EndorFUN event, it'll be fun and well run, and exceed expectations. That's BRANDING. Truthfully, I'd prefer each of our events to stand on their own, and you come because it's a great event. Not, "oh, it's a qualifier for this or that." I want it be about YOU wanting to come because the race is kickass and fun, and the Race is the end, not the means to an end....It's a festival, and it's VERY family friendly....

Same as NAS. You don't worry about the quality of the event when you sign up.

Our goal is to build that huge loyalty amongst athletes, by doing it the right way. BTW, we DID have a pretty big contingent coming from the Northeast for Lone Star ON APRIL 1...There was still 3 feet of snow on the ground there, and no one had even been outside on their bikes...That makes me really proud of what we do.

So, yup, it is brandbuilding. It's just different than Ironman Brandbuilding. Don't be surprised if we add additional events, but they may not be HIM's....For me, this is supposed to be fun. So, if we find locations that are fantastic and worldclass, we'll organize something there. The distances and weekend will be dictated by what's there....We've got an idea for a three day weekend for 2008, with a kids race, oly, sprint, and bike time trial...No HIM, but tons of fun in maybe the nicest venue we'd have. That excites me:)

And, people will come. Why? Because they're confident the race will be great, because we're doing it. That's branding.....

Your 3 day race sounds really intriguing. Olympic distance race - bike time trial. 3-days. Best location. Sounds really exciting. How about some more details?

I think you're mixing up execution of an event with the importance of brand building to marketing (e.g. copy what existing races do right). I'm a marketing guy, and I think beyond event execution the thing that holds back the smaller races from becoming bigger races is poor marketing. I say this from having consulted for triathlons, adventure races, bike races, ski resorts and other stuff. Most of them are all too focused on how the event will go off (good thing) and not getting people to sign up. There's a killer multi-day bike race in the western US that could rival Sea Otter, but they can't grasp how to market to a larger audience and establish themselves in the marketplace.

Regardless, we're not going to see eye-to-eye on this, so we might as well agree to disagree.

Perfect example of branding (and at the risk of tossing in more marketing lingo), product differentiation and good positioning (eg. what makes you different from Ironman) -- the pillars of marketing.

We'll let you know once we have commitments...Meeting with the folks next Tues. All the lodging onsite as well, fireworks Sat evening, bands, great food, beer...We'll actually announce it soon, if it's a go....
K

I am in the range of Timberman (metro NYC), have been in the sport for a long time and do a lot of races. Over the years I know lots of people who do Timberman and hear lots of discussion about it pre-season in person, in newsletters and on forums. Not once in probably 200 "impressions" has "Endorfun" ever been mentioned.

If you think that is your "brand", you are mistaken. You have a collection of individual brands as race names, not a parent brand. A few people might give you feedback that the Endorfun "brand" matters (likely the same minority who in December crowed that 101 would be a smash success), and you might think of building the Endorfun brand going forward, but to your existing business, it doesn't register.

As mentioned, I'm more trying to build a brand for each race....BUT, if people see that we're putting on the race, it means something. Maybe not to everyone, but to quite a few people. Ultimately, it's my goal for each race to stand on it's own, as a great race. RD's seem to be all about series, and qualifiers, etc....Come to our race because it's a great race, not because it's part of a series. I think 101 would be better served by this as well....Does it actually mean something to qualify for the 101 world championships at one of the other races? Not so much, I'd say....

Same thing as Clearwater, for Ironman 70.3. Most applauded the idea of the series, and the championship, but the qualifying slots weren't as coveted as expected the first year. Yet, people went to the Mdot branded 70.3's. More, imo, because they feel that the Mdot stands for quality....

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...because they feel that the Mdot stands for quality....[/reply]

As lemmings are to a cliff, triathletes are to the IM brand.

SOB I hate to have to blow smoke up KJ's skirt but I will even though he dogged me out the other day...

Lonestar was my first EndorFun race. Honestly I didn't really know WTH EndorFUN was until I crashed his message board to hijack threads.

The reason that I signed up for the Galveston race was basically I had heard from people I trust that Keith put on some of the best races in the country. His comitment to excellence was my motivation.

My coach did the 101 and said it was an awesome race. She loved the atmosphere and the payday. I might be having knee surgery again next week (if I don't jump off a brigde) missing IMCDA. If I do I am 99% certain I will sign up for the woodlands race.

Say what you want about the lemmings, but the MDot is still THE brand in longcourse triathlon. Why? Because for the most part, people view them as the best. Before you try to refute that, I qualified it as saying "for the most part"....That's reality, whether you agree or not. The masses think they're well done...

I'll also say, despite all the bitching and moaning about Mdots that we see on this forum, they're still the only races that draw the numbers...

I'd guess that the athletes who complain, are among the first to sign up....Nothing wrong with it. For Long course, they're still the standard. Are they perfect? Nope, but no one is.....

Some of what you say is true, however, I believe the reason that people sign up for the IM branded race goes FAR FAR FAR beyond the race being a quality race, which for the most part, it is. Lake Placid was a cool race, however, is it any better than Silverman or The Grand Columbian? Heck no. In my opinion, a LOT of the athletes that sign up for an IM branded race do so because they need lots of people to see them doing it and just want to be associated with the IM brand. Nothing really wrong with it, aside from being a big vain but I think triathletes in general are a fairly bunch.
If triathletes would venture outside of the IM brand, they would see how many other awesome races there are.
just my 2 cents.

Yes.

I totally agree with you!

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

You actually don't count, since you've yet to change my mind that you are a shill for WTC or NAS.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

I'd say what makes IM Lake Placid great is the time of year, proximity to NYC, Boston and surrounding areas, and the location of the race - a nice town with lots of nice hotels, a lake in the middle, and once you are in town, no need for a car again. I can't think of another northeatern U.S. race with all of these qualities.

With that said, I don't think I'll be back, because I don't think IM is particularly healthy, while I think triathlon is really healthy, and I would rather be healthy and able to know I've done 2 IM's than unhealthy and able to know I've done 3.