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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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"the 101 brand will be built"

Dan,

Why does the race distance have to be a brand?

Why can't you just put on a great, well run event, regardless of the distance and with all the requesite marketing and promotion make it successful?

Two of the best run, longest standing races in Ontario are run over odd distances - Muskoka and Kingston, each run over the 2K/55K/15K distances.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [KJ] [ In reply to ]
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Kevin,

It's funny. Only a few short years ago, I would have said that were were not enough, 1/2 IM races. Now there seems to be a surplus.

My sense, from talking to retailers and I have been talking to many, is that they are still selling a lot of what many consider entry level equipment. Thats' good news. But not too many of these people, and rightly so, are jumping right up to a 1/2 and full distance IM's. Check out Danskin. Their numbers are huge and many retail accounts tell me that sales to women are on a tear right now. Thats' were the growth is.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Last edited by: Fleck: May 8, 07 8:02
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [KJ] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
You do need the big #'s....Off the top of my head, there are only about 12 or so that are bigtime in the US...Eagleman, Timberman, Wildflower, Steelhead, FL 70.3, Cali 70.3, Gulf Coast, Buffalo Springs, Vineman, Spirit of Racine, Clearwater...I may be forgetting a few, but that's about it. That's a pretty small list....

And most of them are also 70.3 branded races, correct?

Here in Ontario we are experiencing a massive triathlon boom, but you're correct about who these new numbers actually are - they're short course people. We have two very successful long course triathlons - Muskoka and Peterborough 1/2. They draw huge numbers, but the other attempts are quite small. Even with our huge number of triathletes, there just aren't enough long course racers to fully support other well-established attempts at long course like Parry Sound. Sure, there is lots of growth in triathlon, but I agree - it's short course growth. The average joe wants to do a triathlon (spring, maybe olympic if they;re a keener), not necessarily a 70.3 or an IM or a 101.

We seem to have a finite supply of long course athletes, and a seemingly infinite supple of long course events...this doesn't balance out.
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [Dave Stohler] [ In reply to ]
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"the people who sign up because they don't believe they are fit enough to finish the IM they have scheduled. That seems to leave a big gap in the middle of the field?"

the nice, france, triathlon never had a big problem finding 1000 people. i'm saying that today, as of now, for this brand new series, is best source of incremental entries is that group that i identified.

but next year, that's a different story. next year's race will be filled by this year's folks to decline to spend that $450 12 months in advance.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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"but next year, that's a different story"

Dan,

Indeed, that's where 101 will get it's real acid test. Now people know. How many of those sign-up-the day-after-this-years-IM-race-for-next-years-IM-race folks will pause and think about doing something else next year?

Strange that they did not think this out a bit more with a bit more lead time to promote things.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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"Why does the race distance have to be a brand?"

there are two "brands" that have to be built. if it was just about the distance, then the great floridian would have as many entries as IM florida. the brand means an experience, and one thing graham fraser does is provide a great experience. the 101 folks have to prove they can match this.

also, tho, the distance has to be seen as something worthy of pursuit. if i started putting on a bunch of 30k footraces, saying this is an appropriate alternative to the marathon, i think people would have to warm up to that idea.

for 3-sporters, a marathon is hard enough. adding the other two events makes an IM an event that is frankly unsuitable for many of its current adherents, because of physiology or lifestyle. but there is no good alternative, so they keep going back.

and, there are a lot of folks for whom IM is the sport. they are not triathletes. they bag IMs, that's what they do. there's an open question as to whether they'll ever really be triathletes. for those who are not triathletes, never were, and will not be, they'll eventually leave IM racing. but for those who'll mature in their view of what this activity represents, and will turn into triathletes, i think the 101 will present for them a viable and compelling alternative.

but that's for long coursers. i have doubts as to whether i'll ever race anything longer than olympic. that's my physiology.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [GearGrinder] [ In reply to ]
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Bingo...
Another example was Lone Star for us....We had nearly 2000 athletes for the weekend...500 of them were HIM'ers....Great weekend, but the sprint had the most, followed by the International.

For Mooseman, we have about 750 for each the International and the HIM...But, Mooseman's AWESOME:), and people aren't flocking to the HIM....

For Longhorn, we'll see. It's in a great spot, Austin....But, there are also a bunch of additional HIM's, plus the 101 4 weeks later...

The sprints are drawing big #'s. As mentioned, the big HIM's are drawing, but I don't see any new ones that have broken into that club. They're all fairly well-established. It's not an easy thing. With 500 or so, you can manage to keep it afloat, and do ok. If you do a good job, it'll continue to grow. But, from my perspective, I'd be chugging pepto-bismol and be on the phone to my creditors begging for forgiveness if I had 200 people....
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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"and, there are a lot of folks for whom IM is the sport"

Dan,

Personally, I find that odd and somwhat discouraging. I see it here on ST. It's like IM is a seperate sport somehow. It involves swimming cycling and running, but strangly these folks don't indentify themselves as triathletes - they are Ironmen. Perhaps they are taking what Reilly tells them at the end of every IM to heart!!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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As of right now, Clear Lake has even less people than Bradenton had and is about a month out. Do you think they would have had more if not for the Bradenton race?

In Reply To:
they should've opened in clear lake[/quote]
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Dan, on this issue, I just flat out disagree with you. And since I think you are getting paid by 101, I do not think you may be able to be totally honest.

I strongly strongly feel this new distance try is a total joke! Sorry for being so honest. As another example of why I say this, when I pulled into the gas
station on Sunday to fill my motor home with 180 bucks of gas from my trip back from Wildflower, we saw some folks we knew. They asked what we were up
to and said we have just gotten back from a triathlon. The first thing they said was it the Hawaii thing. So, all the general population knows about is the
Hawaii race, and maybe its distance with a Marathon at the end. So, as I am trying to explain to them there are different distances, and I had just completed
an Olympic distance, it again just hit me that if I was going to put out the effort for another long distance race, I sure would not waste the energy on anything
less than the real deal. Why would I try to explain why I did a 101 distance and not the real deal?

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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"Strange that they did not think this out a bit more with a bit more lead time to promote things."


I think there was pressure to do something big ASAP.
Last edited by: Dave Stohler: May 8, 07 8:36
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Steve, I continue to be surprised on what I see Dan writing. Meaning, over the years I have always seen him challenge the status quo
and be right on the mark with everything I have read. But, to see him to continue to push the 101, and it will somehow basically fill up next
years races, well, I just feel he is totally off the mark. I do not even get the feeling from the ST posts that here is that much interest, and there
are lot of long distance passion here. So, as I asked Dan, is he being paid by 101? I see no logic on how he can post what he is doing unless he was
being paid.

I still stongly offer that if this company wants to try and make their mark in this sport, change the distance to the new ITU double 0.
Look at all the comments that races are filling up big time with sprint and Oly folks. If you were going to market something, market that you
can do something less than a HIM, not something longer. It seems you have a much bigger potential of getting folks to double up. I think
you would also find some passion with tri racers today, like me, who went into this sport to try and improve at ALL 3 events, not just have a fancy
Duathlon race. Plus, to say it is a ITU distance has at least something behind it.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [Uncle Phil] [ In reply to ]
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"Do you think they would have had more if not for the Bradenton race?"

i don't know. but they would have had more time to get their execution ducks in a row, and they could've concentrated their marketing on the bay area, instead of just getting around to it now. you can't nationally promote races like this. it's like a national political election: you still have to beat the doors locally.

look, this is all stuff the 101 folks have come to realize. in the end, if they're sufficiently stubborn and ambitious, these decisions will only affect how long it takes these guys to get back to square one and recoup their investment.

there is a strictly business way to approach this. at the end of year-one, one of two things will happen. it will either have been successful enough to build upon, or not yet over the hump. if it's the former, then great, off to the races. if it's the latter, if i'm graham fraser i approach the organization and buy the 101 brand and leverage my resources against it -- finally i've got a tradename i own. if i'm the 101 owner, i do the deal for no money up front, and take the cash on a per-entry deal over a few years. like a car loan, after 36, or 48, or 60 months it's mine free and clear.

i haven't spoken to graham since last year's kona. i like graham a lot. but perhaps he hates my guts these days, because i do not hate the 101, and i hope for its success (as i hope for the success of WTC and NAS). but, knowing all the players as i do, each and every one of these principals is too much in love with his own business as it currently operates, and lacks the vision and courage to see past the status quo. the exception to this is a very interesting person, john morgan, the bank behind 101. he is very impressive. if i am graham fraser, his name gets into my rolodex, for use in case 101 can't get sufficient traction. if it does gain traction, all that is moot. but that's why i don't think the 101 is going away. one way or another, i think the brand is going to stick around.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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"And since I think you are getting paid by 101"

i was paid to host the 101's website. i am paid to produce its online coverage. in neither case am i paid very much, but i'm doing it anyway because i like the idea of a new brand coming into triathlon, and i honor venture investment in our industry. are you saying i'm not being forthright? have i exhibited a lack of forthrightness in the past that bolsters your view that i'm dishonest in my representations?


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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but next year, that's a different story. next year's race will be filled by this year's folks to decline to spend that $450 12 months in advance.
[/reply]

This is where I see myself. I'm doing an ironman this year b/c I've always wanted to. I'd like to do one every year for the rest of my life but I just can't justify the 450. Maybe tri 101 will be the answer to that.

Dan
www.aiatriathlon.com

http://www.aiatriathlon.com
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I am just saying that something with how I read your posts does not make sense. Maybe it has nothing to do with about are you being paid or not,
but everything in the past I read from you I could see the logic. I am just not seeing the logic in anything I read you writing about the 101,
just emotion. As is posted, the growth in races is in the Sprint and Oly distance, not in the longer stuff. So, logic says the next step is to attack these
folks to do longer stuff. I think folks maybe looking at this from their past, rather than see the type of new folks coming in. I just do not hear
these new folks talking about longer racing, and I go to, race, and help at probably just about more races than anyone on ST. What I hear and see is
a lifestyle, not just Type A obsessions.

So, who knows, you are the man so maybe I will eat crow. But, again, I just keep looking for the logic in your posting, and I sure am missing it.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [dtreeps] [ In reply to ]
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I just smile when I hear folks complain about entry fees. The entry fees are the cheapest part of any race I do.
I just spent 300 bucks just for gas to do the Wildflower Oly distance. I am just thankful folks put on these races,
and I think we get a bargin!! I have put on races and know first hand what they cost to do. And since most
communities have no desire to have us trash throwing racers come into there communities and mess it up, (from seeing first
hand the trash at vineman last year) having to pay the events locations big bucks for the locations is a large expense I would guess.

So, what type of race I do has nothing to do about about entry fees. Again, if I am going to do a long distance race,
100 bucks has NOTHING to do with my decision. It is do I want to try to explain to folks why I just did a 101 distance,
or that I completed an Ironman? For me, there is no question.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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" I am just saying that something with how I read your posts does not make sense."

if you think my posts on 101 don't make sense, go see what the folks in the lavender room think of my posts over there.

"
As is posted, the growth in races is in the Sprint and Oly distance, not in the longer stuff."

that's just not true. if one considers the number of half-IM entrants 5 years ago, and then looks today, the rate of growth at this distance has probably exceeded that of any other distance. and then you see the IM paradigm, where almost every entrant has his $450 deducted from his account at least 11mo prior to the event. on what basis are you not acknowledging the growth in long distance?


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [dtreeps] [ In reply to ]
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I think the $450 is a small part - If people are going to commit to flying somewhere for a race, that's a big commitment - time off, plane tickets, bike transport, rental car, hotel. The race entry fee is only a small part of that (significant part, but not the majority of hte expense).
I also think that 101 is closer to a HIM than an IM, and so you are more likely to get a "local" race crowd than a diverse group. Local meaning you can drive there. It might be a 4-6hour drive, but it's still a drive and not a flight.
As others have said, this is why the local advertising and choice of race weekend is so important.
tom

In Reply To:

but next year, that's a different story. next year's race will be filled by this year's folks to decline to spend that $450 12 months in advance.


This is where I see myself. I'm doing an ironman this year b/c I've always wanted to. I'd like to do one every year for the rest of my life but I just can't justify the 450. Maybe tri 101 will be the answer to that.

Dan
www.aiatriathlon.com[/reply]
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Dan,

Thanks for putting up with these questions for an event you don't even own. Dialog like this is great for the sport.

I think the 101 team did a lot of things well in creating and generating this new series. I was wondering, did they ever consider adopting the new ITU long distance distances? Isn't 4+120+30 almost 100 miles anyway. And they would have a built in World Champs that rotates every year. This seems like an untaped market in the US.

I really think they missed the mark on "creating something ground breaking, like Hawaii was 20 years ago". I would currently give this honor to the guys putting on 24 hour triathlons. That is much more out of the box.
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I just spent 300 bucks just for gas to do the Wildflower Oly distance[/quote]what in the heck do you drive, a tractor-trailer?





Where would you want to swim ?
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I see folks post that HIM's are being cancelled since they could not get enough to sign up.

I see how long it is taking Vineman to fill.

I see that wildflower long did not fill, they just closed it real late saying full, I was tracking the numbers.

Napa is getting more folks, but has never filled.

I do not hear from the masses of new folks I talk to at the races I help at that they have to do a long distance race. The shorter fill the life style better.

Looking at myself and talking to other folks my age. We have done the long stuff. Nothing left to prove. Just takes too much out of the body. We enjoy
the lifestyle of racing, meeting our friends, and doing 2 or 3 per month. I am not doing any long distance races this entire season, but still doing like 15 shorter races.

450 is a drop in the bucket compared to the cost for bike stuff, wet suits, etc. Seems like our sport is mostly upper middle class folks from all I have read, so
money on fees is not an issue, or the IM races would not fill in hours 12 months ahead of time.

So, we shall see who is right. But, from all the hype so far, and now all the excuses, someone is getting their lunch eatten. Glad it is not my money since
I just do not see a business model going forward for long stuff. Us baby boomers in quantity want to do the lifestyle, and I am seeing my friends my age
going back to shorter stuff.

I have been wrong before so we shall see. So, give me what the fill rates have to be in quantity and time they open to register for next year to say you
have a model that will make profit. We can then track this starting I guess right now for the 101 race that just happened right? The IM races fill within minutes
after they open from the race.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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The main challenge I see for the 101 Series after the first event other than getting their race numbers up initially is how they can truly distinguish and separate themselves from the IM brand, other than the obvious different race distance. The IM brand and how they put on a race is so ingrained in most of us that it is hard to not compare what 101 is doing directly to the IM experience. I'm not a marketing pro and don't know the buzzwords, but I think 101 may need to try to become Apple instead of trying to copy Microsoft.
Last edited by: Dave Stohler: May 8, 07 9:48
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [GregX] [ In reply to ]
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My motor home got 7.3 MPG on my latest trip.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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