Can you explain the format, rules and logistics of the draft legal triathlons in Mexico?

...or anyone else?

Dan, haven't read thru the entire thread so this may have already been asked/answered, but any indication if this change is for tri only or will the sprint du wc also now be DL?

I'm pretty sure at least according to my source(s), that USAT duathlon sprint nationals next year are going to be DL but that the normal distance will not.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
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Wow, that could be pretty cool. Makes running be important.


How would this impact the USAT ranking system?
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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Any idea on when USAT might make that info public?

I'm curious how certain your sources are. At duathlon nationals last weekend, I asked about the possibly of adding a draft-legal event during the town hall meeting. The response I got went more along the lines of "We've thought about it a bit, but haven't come to any decisions". Personally, I'd love to see it happen. It might bump up the level of competition for the sprint distance, which seems to have been much less deep than the standard distance the last few years.

Bringing the original discussion points back up. I don't want to touch 2, 3, 7, or 8 for now, but I think the others still bear a little thinking about. My perspective is just about how this is going to affect sprint distance.

6: I don't think there's really enough demand for DL racing in most areas to support a category system like USAC does for road races. For the most part, I'd be okay with requiring people to sit through some kind of rules briefing/skills clinic type of event the day before (say, at packet pickup) unless they can prove they've already competed in a DL event. Once you start talking about elite/junior elite/development style races, that starts to become a whole other problem, and some kind of experience or category system might be the way to go.

5: This seems like it depends a lot on the number of laps. For a single loop race, all you would need to do is start the fastest wave first, and give enough space between waves to minimize the likelihood of passing. For two loops, space the start so that the next wave starts about when the wave ahead is starting their second lap. I think that would minimize Past three loops, I think you need to start thinking pretty hard about a lap-out rule.

4: Again, this depends a lot on how the laps are set up. For very short bike loops, where the leaders of one wave lapping the trailers from the same wave, I don't think there's a good way around it. For longer loops, it might not matter. Once you start talking about having multiple waves on the course at once, this really becomes the same problem as #1. If you can enforce #1 easily and have some kind of right-of-way or blocking rule to require yielding to packs from other waves passing you, I don't think you need it. If you can't do that and #1 is important to you, I think you don't have much choice except to have the lap-out rule.

1: You know, I think this might be easier than it sounded like at first, at least for smaller races. Why not just use colored race numbers on the bikes? So long as the waves stay mostly separated, I would think the numbers would be adequate to differentiate and prevent this. If you had 4 or 5 waves, you might be able to get by with having draft marshals checking for drafting. They could give a drafting penalty if you're drafting someone not in your wave (red can draft red, green and draft green, red cannot draft green and vice versa).

Closed courses seem like they're the other big bone of contention, but most of the sprint races I do already have that, and have multiple loops. Of course there's tons of caveats to that. I live and race in urban Southern California, where getting permission for a longer course appears to be very difficult for most RDs. A good chunk of my racing experience is the local collegiate conference series, where most have 3 to 4 closed course bike loops for a 20kish ride (UCLA, UC Irvine, UCSD Tritonman, CSULB, and Stanford). And of course, none of them have been draft legal. On the other hand, I've also done a few USAC sanctioned road races on open roads in semi-rural areas, and there were never any problems even with 40+ rider packs.

Having done the ITU AG sprint last year in London I can see that had that event been draft legal people may have been killed for sure.

It was wet and slippery there were tens of crashes. people crashed riding alone on straight parts of the roads. I saw two myself ahead of me. it was scary.

The elite races had several crashes too. What would the ITU do if its wet to keep it safe? people crashed but at least did not get run over by the competitors behind them causing a domino effect as there were gaps.

be interested to see what the ITU says about these scenarios?

IMO, you are making a number of assumptions, which have been talked about here many times.

Yep, I have done worlds 3 times, going for 4. If the only thing they change is say drafting is now legal, nothing would have changed in the 3 races I did. There was drafting at those non legal draft races, and if you
said drafting was legal, there would not have been anymore than there already was.

So drafting or no drafting rules at ITU WC does not matter, they are always drafting legal races.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I am not assuming anything. You are assuming that everyone drafts I don't and I know many who would not cheat even if no one was looking a great number of AG athletes at least try to keep a legal distance. So no its nothing like draft legal now. even with some cheats.

Now if the conditions in london where road bikes only and drafting was allowed going by the elite drafting rules there would have been massive pileups. I avoided colliding with the two people who crashed in front of me because I left a legal distance and due to the conditions was not riding on aerobars at the time. Those two riders however would have been with me in a pack as existed the swim together had this been a draft legal event them crashing would have either brought me down and those with me or I would have run them over.

I think drafting is more dangerous especially in and/or windy conditions. it will remain to be seen but judging by what I see happening to elite cyclists and triathletes in wet conditions I cringe at what AG triathletes may do. especially those where the fitness exceeds bike handling ability and experience.

geez, i dunno - it seems to me like all others except sometimes you draft and sometimes you don't - like a training ride but racing. they just brought in new rules earlier this year but basically you have to make your aerobars (if you use a tri bike) so that they don't extend past the imaginary line made by your handlebars and they have to be joined. same sex drafting only (but my first one i drafted off males and my most recent one i slingshot off males). no being in the aerobars in a pack - so only the first person can be in aerobars and those behind them have to be on hoods.

logistics i'm not sure what you're looking for there. can you ask in a different way?

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http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
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both are used. you can also "adapt" your aerobars to the rules and keep "adapting" until the judges okay it (your bike goes before judges before transition)

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http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
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Yep, so simple of a change, just modify the aerobars.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

So question. We know today that a TT bike with aerobars has shifters at the end and would not meet these rules. We know today that a road bike has the shifters on the hoods/brakes.

So, for a road bike, adding stub aerobars is real easy, no change for shifting.

So, have you seen a TT bike modified with stub aerobars? If so, how do they shift?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

We just have different opinions. Nothing wrong with that.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Do the rules in Mexico have anything to do with USAT?

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The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

Would not make sense that other NF rules are USAT rules. Could be some the same but would be shocked if all the same. We cannot even get our races in the US to use the same rules.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

i modified mine with aerobars with shifters at teh ends - just pulled the long straight part back so the shifter was even with the imaginary line. i might have a picture. ok, got pictures. just a sec..







in the top foto they weren't far back enough but you can see what we were doing i think? so all i then needed to do was to join them and i did that with a bike lever covered with black electrical tape and taped to the bars. again the aerobar rule is brand new this year and brought in mid season - caused all kinds of troubles but i guess i got off easy? otherwise i'd just ride my road bike (but it has only one gear due to no derailer). again, in all previous years rules were all the same except for the imaginary line one and IMO the triathlons were just normal - sometimes you drafted and sometimes you didn't. really not a big deal.

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http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
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Dave's not going to like me saying this, but based on CURRENT VERSION OF ITU DRAFT LEGAL RULES, as in, not the hypothetical ones that may or may not exist only in Dave's mind, this sort of setup wouldn't fly. For that, you need to have drop bars and you may not have shifters on the end. Also, the bridge between aerobars has to be "factory equipment" or something like that, trying to get away from when guys used to use electrical tape to hold a Popsicle stick on there.
Now the debate can be about whether this sort of setup should be allowed in a DL race, which for me the answer is no because you don't have nearly the same control on your bullhorns as you would on proper hoods or drops (see Dan's criticisms of Chicago about athletes not being in the drops), and while I understand downtube and stem shifters do still exist and are legal, you want your shifters and brakes together and near your hands in a group whenever possible. I've shown up to a group ride on my TT bike once. I survived, and yes you can ride in a group with one, but you can't ride nearly as aggressively as you can on a road bike while still being safe about it. If your solution then is "don't ride so aggressively," then I suggest you switch activities to something that's not inherently a competition.

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IG: idking90

well, i really don't care. i was asked to explain how it works here and i did. you can like it or not and judge me to change activities but honestly, you can also just fuck off.

also you might have missed the point that we are not supposed to be on the aerobars when drafting but then again, quite honestly, fuck off.

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http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit

I'm not saying you change activities but from a broader perspective, I'm saying that if the solution to a set of equipment rules for a race is "don't ride aggressively" then there's a problem. I absolutely understand that it can work riding a modified TT setup, just that it's far from optimal.

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IG: idking90

Love it! I just continue to not understand why some folks have to attack personally just because everyone does not bow down to their opinion of what is "right". I have learned that these folks really by the definition
are just bullies. I have learned so much more in life to be open to others opinions and engaging in a clean debate as to what they are thinking, why, and attempting to get data to support their position.
So so few can do this, but it is always so much fun to stand up to bullies. They get SO upset when they cannot get their way.

Loved your pictures. Thanks for showing, and proving, there are places doing DL races with AGers, and thousands, and are doing it safely with various type of bike setups. And since the field is thousands, seems the events
are not hurting with the 100% I will never enter a AG drafting race without the perfect draft rules they want. :o) I still think the poll results on ST showing there is not even a clear majority who say they would not do any type of DL race show just because some are very vocal on why AG DL drafting will either not work, or only work if it is their set of rules, is very telling.

Thanks again for posting the pictures. Will just need to see what the official ITU rules will be, and for us in the US, what the USAT response will be.

It is going to be interesting to see how much drafting there will be at the Edmonton WC race. I expect tons like before. Hopefully will get a chance to talk with various USAT folks and get their take on where we are going.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

oh! well is my face red! (well not really, but i am sorry). I thought you were one of the "slow folks dilute our sport" folks. so sorry to have misunderstood you.

also it is entirely possible that i was under the effects of lack of coffee. my coffee maker is in bed watching the TdF TT so i had to make it myself! The INHUMANITY of it all! good news is that i am now properly drugged. :)

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http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
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Dave, I was giving you exactly what you wanted. I outlined why, provided ITU doesn't make any changes to equipment for DL racing, as their PR team has said, that setup wouldn't be allowed. I acknowledge that yes, there's still some unknown, and that the purpose of this thread was to be a discussion on what the rules ought to be, which is where I voiced my opinion on why a modified TT setup is not ideal. I will give you that yes, you can absolutely ride a TT bike in a group reasonably safely, even without moving the bars back so they don't extend past the brake levers, and I said so in my post. I will also say that it's far from optimal, as you don't have nearly the control of your bike riding on bullhorns than you do in drops or even hoods.
Again, I will concede that you can absolutely ride this setup in a group and do so safely, but you cannot ride as safely with the same level of aggression that you can on a road bike. You can't corner as hard, moving up through a group is more dangerous, and reaction times can be slower. I say this from my own personal experience, having done the exact same group ride on my TT bike a few times versus my road bike that I do it on 90% of the time. So yes, you can ride your TT bike in a group, but the way to do so safely means you have to ride a bit more timid. To me, if that's your solution for a race, that you should just have to ride less aggressive, that's not very reasonable. It's a race, as in, you should be going hard, or at least you shouldn't have equipment rules that cause mental reservations about going hard.
I will happily admit, you're right, I won't do a race where it's an equipment free-for-all with folks allowed to ride in groups, because to me, that is not a risk I am willing to take. I don't think that makes me any more narrow-minded than your "I won't race if it's a multi loop crit format" that you've repeatedly said.

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IG: idking90