1. Yes. It happens in tri today, why change? Plus the draft won't last long if the AG's are mismatched.
2. Sure. Why not?
3. Whatev.
4. Yes. For safety. No need to have lapped riders cruising around below speed. F1, Nascar, and any other racing league pulls them. Tri should be no different.
5. Their call. It's their race.
6. No. Anyone not qualified will fall out quickly. And the strategy of the experienced folk *should* teach them to be alert on lap 1, after which it won't be an issue.
7. Again, their call. Would vote for no, only because it violates #4 - people going fast (presumably) on the same track as people going less fast.
8. Yes. Shitcan 1.3.073 entirely. Morphology, and desire to accommodate a lot of different geometries, dictates accommodation. Not sure what the UCI fear is, short of outlawing recumbents. Why not let people ride, for Chrissakes?

All for now.

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- I do all my own stunts

I would think if you had multiple "classes" and were concerned about the draft being unfair, you would have to have single lap courses only.

Just as the 45yo first place guy could take off if he catches the 30yo train on its second loop, just as easily, the 1st place guy could be halfway on his first lap having missed the train and the 2nd place guy could catch that train and make up that deficit in no time at all. Either way doesn't seem "fair".

As to aerobars, I still see their use in the event you are unable to hook up with people to draft with. If you are caught out on your own, then you can use them. If you are currently within the "no-drafting" distance, then that is also the "no-aerobar" distance. If a marshal sees you on the aerobars within XX feet/meters of a rider ahead, you get pulled out for a 5 second stopped penalty. If people were threatened with losing their pack by coming to a full stop for 5 seconds, that should be incentive enough to not do it.

I think the idea re aerobars is overly complicated and too hard to enforce. It's a good idea in theory. Better and simpler to have a blanket rule saying you can't use them. Also takes out the problem of people having ones that extend past the hoods. That rule is frequently flouted in races.

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__________________________________________________
http://twitter.com/willrc91 --- instragram.com/willrc91

I am just looking at options. USAT can field or not field teams at Worlds. They did not do a team from sprint worlds when it first started.

So until USAT gives us the detail response to the ITU change, we cannot say with 100% certainty that USAT will put things in place to end up with a Sprint DL Teamusa Team at worlds in 2016.
I assume they will but until we the details on how it would work, anything is possible.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

"Do you think though that the average adult onset triathlete age grouper has the group bike handling skills to not present a danger to themselves and others? Even without aerobars. I have my doubts."

the first ever swim bike run tri i did was a race that, coincidentally, is owned by the same fellow who owns the torrance race you and i've been talking about. it was "the human race," 1980, started with the bike, then the run, then the swim. can you imagine, nowadays, ending with the swim, in open water? fairly big race, i don't know, several hundred people. nobody died. i do think there was a crash on the bike, i heard something behind me, but i was prescient enough to be at the front of the pack. monty was in that race. anyway, no big whoop, nobody thought, oh shit, a lot of runners in a bike race.

i've been in 3 multisport races that ended with the bike. from memory, the old natl championship duathlon in ontario ended with the bike. sprints for the finish. i've been in a number of those in multisport races. everybody lived.

to me, the most dangerous situations i've ever seen have been no-draft races on courses open to cars, when those races are really big, like, 3000 people or more. which you can have in rural areas. i would argue that these kinds of fields are harder, or can be harder, for a motorist than bike races with that same density.

but i think this is the good kind of discussion to have. can we have no-draft racing where we still have kinda like drafting rules. for example, if you're by yourself, or if you're 2-up, can you still ride to the right? i would like to think that no-draft does not mean anything goes. hence this thread.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Actually, I think you could change my mind in 5 minutes and then I could pick your brain about something far more interesting for the last 6 minutes (I'm available all week). I'd guess the race is perfectly safe, but N=1. I could also probably find you a 16.6 mile loop race somewhere else open to cars on rural roads with intersections manned by volunteer CHP that is unsafe. The level of safety is going to be a function of the route, the staffing, the signage (pre-race and during the race), the local mindset (i.e. cycling-friendly), etc. In theory, this is one of the reasons USAT sanctioning exists, right? To ensure that your course is safe? Given the state of the sanctioning system as described in your article ("the sanctioning app deals more with what the RD has in place after a bad thing happens...than it does about keeping bad things from happening in the first place."), I would hope that whatever boxes that need to be checked for having a AG DL course sanctioned are overly-stringent rather than underly-stringent.

Perhaps obviously, USA Cycling road race protocol should be the starting point for thinking about how to handle AG DL courses, which leads me to what I think are the more interesting rules to discuss: the wave-cap at 75 and the minimum time between waves (for DL races, 1hr for intra-gender, 45min for inter-gender). A quick search tells me (and I obviously could be wrong after about 60 seconds of googling) USA Cycling caps a field at 100 for road races (or 75 if it includes Cat 5 guys or Cat 4 women; Rule 1H5), so there's a precedent that there probably shouldn't be more than 75 cyclists of questionable ability on the road at once. Maybe the rule becomes that you can have open roads if you only have 75 people on the road. But if you can only have 75 people on the road at a time, the economics of hosting the race start getting tight.

I should go swim.

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tweets.

USAT will definitely be fielding teams at this event, you can count on that.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

I would assume this. I just want to see all the details in writing first with folks like you, Dan and others having all your questions answered.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I apologize for keep bringing this up but if we add a run BEFORE the bike then we will quickly, efficiently, and 100% fairly reduce drafting. And for the record I'm all for draft-legal races - the fewer rules the better IMO. I'd like to see a race format that looks like this: Draft legal ==> Swim 1.5K, Run 3K, Bike 40K, Run 8K.

1. Yes, if you happen to have caught a group that is lapping you, they you won't have them for your last lap.
2. Keep the same rule
3. 60/90
4. Yes, If it's a mass start
5. Something that would take somewhere near 15 min to complete
6. Just a class
7. Sure, but you're probably going to get lapped
8. No but modify it to 5 cm in front of the BB

Have Transition parallel to the course but don't go through it each time.

jaretj

"The level of safety is going to be a function of the route, the staffing, the signage (pre-race and during the race), the local mindset (i.e. cycling-friendly), etc."

bingo.

"USA Cycling caps a field at 100 for road races (or 75 if it includes Cat 5 guys or Cat 4 women; Rule 1H5), so there's a precedent"

wouldn't you say, tho, that a field in cycling is kind of like a wave in triathlon? if so, then fine, i'm with you. let's cap the wave, bearing in mind that the wave in a tri is already somewhat broken up by the swim, whereas that is not so in a cycling race so, theoretically, the wave limits could be higher in a tri.

the problem in a tri is this: in a cycling race you don't need a swim venue, so you can absolutely hand pick the course without the need for that venue. in tri, you can get rural, but you are still limited by the need to be near a swim venue. so that limits your ability to choose a very rural loop.

that's why i'm thinking about a modified draft legal ruleset, where you don't have a drafting zone, but you don't get to take over the whole road either.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"3. 60/90"

the one thing that surprises me about all your responses is that you're really liberal on wheel depths. i would think deep wheels would be much more of a potential issue in draft-legal races. especially on descents. i wouldn't allow more than 40mm front or rear, and i think that's liberal. what's the UCI rule?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

what's the UCI rule?

_______

HED 90's are legal, Enve 90's are legal, Zipp 808's are good.
ETA: The basic rule is that any wheel that has rim depth over 25mm (so training tire or less) is good to go. Anything greater than 25mm has to be on approved list. So for many on here who use Flo's, there 30mm + wheels aren't on UCI list and thus illegal wheels.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

ITU has a spoke type/number rule, not a depth rule. Other than I know that 80s/90s are ok.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Brandon, they have both a spoke and rim depth rule. Pretty much any standard training tire (shallow rimmed wheel) that comes on just about every bike is fine. Anything over 25mm rim depth has to be on the approved list. For ST folks, that means no Flo wheels, as of I think the latest update is July 4th, 2014 wheel list.

And yes they will get out a measuring tape and measure them, saw it happen 10 days ago.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

I have never had an issue with a 60 front and 90 rear. I've gotten blown around a little with a 90 front on a long decent in France but I wouldn't expect that type of decent on a DL course.

I don't see a need for that deep of wheel in a DL race but people already have them for no-draft events. No need to make people buy new wheels for a fringe part of a fringe sport.

jaretj

OK. Mostly just pointing out that Hed3s aren't legal I don't think nor would discs be. And, don't they have to have 16+ spokes? Are 'Lightweight' wheels legal or the Mavics that have the carbon spokes? I've read this thread, but only just now am reading the front page.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Here is the rules: It's funny I have gotten a new litespeed aero road bike. They came with pretty cheesy Easton "aero" wheels. I mean not a bad wheel, but to say they are "aero" is a bit of a stretch. BUT because they are too deep by 5mm, they are illegal. I sorta had a laugh about that. It's one of the few Easton wheels that isn't UCI approved.

Zipp 60's aren't approved either.

Article 1.3.018 relates only to mass start competitions.


In this type of events, the riders generally use standard (traditional) wheels which are clearly defined in Article 1.3.018. These wheels are authorised de facto.
However, during mass start competitions, certain riders do use non-standard wheels (rims higher than 2.5 cm, fewer than 16 spokes, spoke thicknesses of over 2.4 mm). If any of these conditions is noted, the wheel is deemed to be a non-standard wheel and must have passed a rupture test in order for it to be authorised for use in competition.
The manufacturers inform the UCI of the names of wheels which have been successfully tested. The names of these wheels are shown in the list below. The wheels can therefore be clearly identified. If this is not the case then the wheel is not authorised for use.



http://www.uci.ch/...NjQxNjY&LangId=1

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

so, second question: what's the deepest wheel you've ever seen used in a major mass start bike race, by a continental or grand tour team member, and by whom?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I would assume probably a 404 type of wheel? But I also will admit I don't pay much attention to their wheel selection. Is that because they all ride stock low rims? Maybe?

I've been able to get a HED 6/9 set (2 of them actually), and I'm debating of sending 1 90 back in favor of a 60/60 Hed wheel (Hed 50's aren't UCI legal).
ETA: In ITU I see ~60's all the time. Jason Pedersen (ST member) rides the Enve 8.9 set (but a 80-90mm wheel is going to be the rare exception). Asked him last week what he thought of them, and he says he can corner and handle anything he's raced at with no issues.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Has USAT given you a date when they will give details on their plans?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

"I've gotten blown around a little with a 90 front on a long decent in France but I wouldn't expect that type of decent on a DL course."

why? what is it about DL courses that presuppose no serious descent? remember, we're talking AGs here. this is the problem with at least a part of this discussion: too many of you guys are looking at AG DL through the prism of races and courses that only have several dozen athletes racing.

it's like a bunch of guys scratching their heads wondering how to get 1500 people all on a 400m oval at the same time. DL racing for AGers is not going to look anything like DL racing the way you guys have seen it. it's going to look like triathlon looked in 1986, except with somewhat tighter packs.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Why could it not look like so many of the flat course races that so many come onto ST and bitch about drafting? I just see that these races could be 100% the same but ignore the drafting. Just seems so easy.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

"Has USAT given you a date when they will give details on their plans?"

to my knowledge they haven't even gotten the whole board together to discuss it. we all just found out about this on friday. they don't know if they're having 2 natl championship races or 3, nor if they'll have them all on the same weekend. nor how to get people ready for these nationals that will qualify people for 2016 worlds. the worlds venue has not been selected, to the USAT's nationals venue can't be selected, nor the date. they don't know any more than we do, really.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Makes sense. Guess will just need to let them catch up after they get through Nationals, and ITU worlds. Then hopefully some questions like places and dates can be announced.

Since I think USAT has had trouble finding a place on the west coast for 2015/16 nationals, this seems to throw in a huge monkey wrench since anyone who bid sure did not bid the races with this new DL
format.

Again, thanks for all you hard work getting us info.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep