The questions you're asking are in line with insisting on more proof that Earth is round. You're not advancing the discussion; you're holding it back.

---

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

Your reasoning is a bit odd. You started out excited because you thought it was simply allowing people to draft on TT bikes. Now that you see it's not that your wanting answers. So what if they simply use road bikes but everything else stays same. Would you have issue?

Your viewpoint didn't seem bothered if they kept equipment but you could now draft freely. Now your all wondering what the format would be. Why the lose of excitement?

---

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Nothing has changed. You just keep making so many assumptions and read what I have posted to make whatever point against me you want. Thanks fine.

I still would not bet what the final outcome is. I am still excited about the possibilities. But as things go more and more to different things than what Dan posted from the ITU
the first time, yep, it becomes less attractive for me, if it stays that direction. But I am making no conclusions until I see the rules, etc in writing. What is wrong with that?

As many have stated in the past, I just say get rid of the drafting rules since it is happening anyways. Whether this is the majority or minority opinion, I do not know.
But at only 39% for the poll saying no on drafting, this gives one set of opinions.

Unless you are an engineer, you will never understand how we think. Just feel sorry for my wife and kids.

Thanks for the data you are providing. Shall be interesting to see just how this all rolls out.

.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

No I'm not trying to make up any point. You went from pure excitement over the thought of being on you TT bike and drafting with 2000 other people to now, a "wait and see" mindset. I thought it was interesting you were fully on board with drafting on TT bikes, all the while saying you never work on bike handling skills, all the while already doing DL races. That's a very scary scenario in my book, and if you do it, how many others will behave in that same manner.

Which I said from the beginning, the ITU did not ever say they were allowing TT bikes. The way the original language was worded and answered to Dan's question (I thought Dan misworded his question on 1st try), there was never any mention that TT bikes would be allowed. There was a clarification error on both parties, for which Dan wanted more clarification and got it.

I understand your excitement would decline if they turn it into super competitive style of racing. That's the big issue I have with AG racing for DL. It's too cut throat, and AG'ers as a whole need a more compassionate set of rules than elites.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

I got into triathlon last year with absolutely ZERO cycling experience. I do sprints, because I like the speed, challenge of getting faster, and the training is easy to fit into my schedule. While I have the fortune of being a decently fast swimmer and runner, I'm not sure how comfortable I would be trying to ride in a "lead" pack. And I doubt anyone would want me there either. Which leads me to believe that it would be necessary to certify that athletes are capable of competing in a DL race. Obviously we are talking about Worlds, so that eliminates a lot of triathletes, who do the sport for fun, not to compete at Worlds. But for me, I now have to either decide to get my drafting card (in Canada you are required to present a drafting card to the RD to compete in a DL race, see below for how to get one for the province of Ontario) or I have to train for longer distances. And if I stick with sprints and want to make Worlds again, race choices will likely be severely limited to those that are DL and the fields will likely be very small (which they should be as argued in the other posts in this thread). It just creates another barrier to entry for the sport.

Triathlon Ontario: "All athletes wishing to race in a draft legal event must possess a “drafting card” prior to competing. Presentation of a drafting card to race directors ensures that the athlete is capable of racing in a drafting situation without being a risk to themselves or the other participants.

To get an Ontario Drafting Card applicants must

• be 12 years of age or older
• be screened by an NCCP certified Level 2 (Comp. Intro) Cycling Coach or a NCCP Triathlon Coach who has taken additional training in draft legal cycling and is included on Triathlon Ontario’s qualified list
• Submit the application to the Triathlon Ontario office. Only complete applications will be accepted.
• Triathlon Ontario will confirm that the athlete has met the requirements as set out for their category."

<<I have seen tons of bike accidents in races over the years and none were caused by drafting. Kathy's, yep, but that would have happened under the new DL rules, depending on what they are. Had nothing to do with the bike
type, etc.>> oh come on. you don't even know what the rules are yet (reference 95% of your posts on this thread) but are confident it would not have happened. yeesh man. please answer my question, define safe for us o enlightened one.
to your point above tho, under current itu dl rules a pack of men would have been nowhere near a pack of women and so, no, it would not have happened.

I do not mind "cut throat" racing. I just have no desire to do something that I think would be dangerous for my skill set, ability, and age.
This is why I will never crit race, or mountain bike, or even run stand alone marathons anymore. No desire to have to quit this sport over
doing something dumb, for me.

Yes, if the ITU's first response held, I was more excited. It meant no bike changes. It meant that the bitching about drafting goes away since
what is happening now becomes legal. It meant normal 1 loop bike courses. Normal close wave starts. Etc.

But as the data has changed, for me at least, it might not be as interesting.

I would love to be a fly on the wall hearing how USAT is addressing this since it sounds like it was a big surprise.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I just have no desire to do something that I think would be dangerous for my skill set, ability, and age.
This is why I will never crit race, or mountain bike, or even run stand alone marathons anymore. No desire to have to quit this sport over
doing something dumb, for me.

______

But you've mentioned how many times you've done the California DL race that is a 3 lap, 15 mile bike loop that allows TT bikes? That bike course has atleast 6 turns (not counting any of the bending turns), 1 180* turn, and several tight corners. That by definition is a crit race + TT bikes and an field of over 300 people?

I guess I just don't follow your logic. You'll do this race, you'll gladly hope the race is TT bike allowed to draft, but now that more stringent safety rules will likely be administered, your having 2nd thoughts.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Things haven't changed since the first response from the ITU. You read what you wanted to hear, that TT bikes would be allowed. That was never stated and would never have been the case. That initial misunderstanding on your part has clouded your view on the subject. As an engineer you shouldn't have made that assumption in the initial phase of this discussion.

Again, why are you trying to say I said something when I did not? How did I ever say I have 2nd thoughts? I said depending on the rules, yep, my interest, meaning my abilities, etc would have me look at things.
Even if the ITU left things the way they first responded to Dan, I still would want the details I look forward to seeing.

So, you are trying to follow logic you are making up since it is not something I stated.

What is wrong with waiting to see what is in writing on what is going to really happen before making a judgment of good or bad for each person?

There are crit races and their are crit tri races. Big difference between the two, and you know the difference.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

"I guess I just don't follow your logic"

Trust me, you are not the first person to have this thought when discussing something with H20fun.

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"Honestly, triathlon is a pussified version of duathlon on that final run."- Desert Dude

You tell me that what Dan asked, got back from the ITU and then posted below did not basically say that their first response stated TT bikes would be okay.


"Road geometry frame"

well... i wouldn't necessarily assume that. here are answers i got back today from the ITU.

SLOWTWITCH: I’m assuming that you will be allowing road race bikes only, no tri bikes, in the first draft-legal age-group sprint worlds. Are you moving toward no clip-ons at all? And what other equipment rule changes will there be?

ITU: To date, there haven’t been any equipment rule changes. However, it is something the technical committee will take into consideration ahead of the rule implementation.

SLOWTWITCH: . When it comes to world championships for age-group racing, what kinds of format changes would you like to see beside draft-legal? Do you see pontoons and all of that? Or is it really just a change in bike rules and bike equipment?

ITU: At this point it's just a change in bike drafting rules.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

And this was in response from this post.

Really the only question to be answered is wil they actually keep races to a small capped field. But questions about equipment are already answered in the ITU rule book. Road geometry frame, "regular" shaped bike helmets only (no pointy end helmets), you'll have to serve penalties on course.

If they have lap out rule my guess is that less than 600 athletes will want to even try this. It really ramps up the competitiveness even more and it's already some quality athletes there.
------------------
@brooksdoughtie

And then back to Brooks

"but they also to me essentially said "go read the rulebook on draft legal portion of events"."

that's not how i read it. what i read is that they are, for age groupers, only changing the race from draft to no-draft. here is what i asked:

"I’m assuming that you will be allowing road race bikes only, no tri bikes, in the first draft-legal age-group sprint worlds."

i sent my questions out, it took a number of hours to get the answers back, so i don't think it was just an off-the-cuff response, i think it was a carefully crafted response. it would have been pretty easy to say, "yes, we are only going to allow road race bikes, no tri bikes." but they did not say that. still, to make sure, i sent one follow up question back to the ITU this morning:

"You’re allowing TT bikes in draft-legal racing for age-group racers? Is that what I’m reading?"

i don't have my answer yet, which is another indication, to me, that this is not just a conversation i'm having with one person at ITU, rather my questions must be getting routed around and then i get the answer. we'll see what the answer is.

i would also state that i think the process is going to need some looking into. what i got from the ITU was that this was in response to a resolution from an NF:

"The Mexican Federation put it forward in a Congress resolution. The Executive Board then asked the Mexican Federation to refer it to the Technical Committee. The Technical Committee then discussed it and presented to the Executive Board to change the sprint to draft legal and keep the Olympic distance non-drafting."

but when i talk to folks at USAT they don't remember this resolution. i therefore question whether this was a resolution at congress to the whole assembly of NFs, asking for a vote on this, and when you look at the wording i got back it doesn't exactly say that. there was a resolution. what was the resolution? was it, "let's change age group worlds to draft legal." or was it, "let's investigate the feasibility of DL racing for AGers." and then the results came back, and it was the executive board, rather than the entire group of federations, that voted this in.

i'm just speculating on the process. i don't know. but it would not surprise me to find that it was something kind of like what i'm describing. i would like to know exactly what the resolution said that the mexican federation put forward, and what the vote on that resolution was, and how that resolution got us from where we were to where we are.

mind, i don't mind having 2 formats in AG racing. but the answers i got from the ITU basically say, hey, we have an agenda, we are on a mission, the "ITU is foremost focused on getting events added to Major Games programs such as the inclusion of Mixed Relay into the 2020 Olympics. " what does concern me is when decisions are made not on the basis of what's best for AG racing, but how changes in AG racing can help us get events added to the olympic program. that sets off big red flashing lights. i hope the ITU will walk that back.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman


So, how can you ignore these email strings and what Dan got back and how the ITU changed over time, which could change again over time. Who knows.
.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Dave,

Good luck with it. I hope you get the answers to your questions. I do hope that if you try it you get on your road bike and work on different bike handling skill sets. Doesn't take a lot, just things that can improve your and others safety.

With this new standard, I'm going to discuss with the USAT Coaching Commission to identify if an standard similar to Canada's is worth pursuing. I think having an webinar/session is a great step to atleast introduce athletes to what DL racing is, how it's handled, what to expect, what to do to prepare. This wont stop crashes from happening, but it can atleast make sure the athletes are held to some degree of responsibility (as well as the federation).

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------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

I haven't seen a thread like this since before the time that Frank Day retired from this place. Congratulations.

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________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

I'll quote that to continue your quest to make this an entirely useless thread.

Please find the quote that explicitly states that TT bikes are allowed in this new 2016 draft legal age group sprint race.

Yep, keep us updated on that status.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I just gave it to you.
Second time they changed their tone.

Guess they must be doing a WTC prize change like they just did with IMLP :O)
.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Quote me the exact line that says TT bikes are allowed (full aero bars, etc)

What you've quoted starts with a question/assumption that road bikes are he only ones allowed. ITU responds to say no rule changes for equipment. They didn't specify if that was rule changes compared to drafting or non-draft. You assumed they meant non-draft. Others assumed (based on our knowledge of sanctioning and draft legal racing) that they would've meant draft legal rules.

ITU would never allow drafting with full TT bikes. 'Basically' and 'explicitly' are totally different things. Your 'data' from 3 worlds is worth almost nothing, as an engineer you should know that. You made some assumptions based on personal preference and not data, that was you error.

With that, I'm done here...

Not saying you are wrong, just things can be read different ways. Nothing wrong with that.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

i guess i don't get the big deal. many (all?) of our national circuit races are draft legal so it is pretty much SOP here. they are only short though - sprints and olys. i really don't see a huge difference but then again i'm very FOP on the bike in those races. also here, you can't have mixed sex drafting - only M/M draft or F/F draft.

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http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit

i've known the mexico guys for a long time. they're great guys, they do a great job, i've been to a half dozen or so of their races. but something happened in mexico over the last decade. triathlon has really exploded and as far as i can tell of the 16 races on the circuito nacional only 3 are no-draft. veracruz, coming up, is draft legal, and there's 3,300 people. they just don't see the issue down there. it's not unsafe, apparently, the have lap courses, and the only thing you can't do is draft off someone of a different gender.

but, closer to you, merida, i believe that's still no-draft. it's 1,500 people. and of course there's, what, 4 ironman races, so, at least 7 no-draft races and at least 13 draft-ok races, the sport is booming, everybody's getting along.

but in all those draft-legal races, roads are closed. i just don't know how much of that we'll be able to get done in the U.S. i'm noodling going down to veracruz and racing that race. if not, i'll certainly go down sometime between now and the first part of next season. chiapas sounds fun. we'll see.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I guess my concern is non-draft triathlon going to end up like Mexico here in the US with draft legal becoming the default. I have no interest in draft legal at all and just want to make sure that non-draft triathlon remains viable especially for the shorter distances. Also has anything been said about duathlons in these discussions?



Joel

veracruz is a big one. i've done the half there and pretty much everyone from DF comes down and it is a huge event. but you're right - we do close the roads for Everything. :) i've not yet done a race here (sprint to IM) where the road wasn't closed. Even 5ks and 10ks (run) are on closed (but maybe you guys do that up there). and yeah, triathlon has absolutely EXPLODED in the last few years. it is absolutely amazing. we don't have real expos like i read about you guys do but we have folks selling their old stuff after the races and after race food will likely be papaya, banana (all locally grown), Electrolit and grandma's pibil. :)

if you're ever in the mood for a gorgeous (and now only by lottery) national circuit race, check out the Xel-Ha one in November. the one thing (i think this is just new this year) about the drafting races is that only short aerobars are allowed and they have to be joined. if not, you'll be penalized 30 sec the first race and then time increases through subsequent races but i think they might DQ after the 3rd or something. also the bars must joined. however, this is an easy fix with adjustable aerobars, some electrical tape, and a stick like object (say, a tire lever). :)

merida was brand new this year so i'm not sure about that and the price was outrageous. i almost did chiapas this year and if we didn't have 4 kids in school.... :) i'd love to go up around DF and do some of thiers - tequis or san gil - but i refuse to use a wetsuit, so there is that. also i considered huata or maz but i do prefer our waters.... it seems every year there is a new race popping up. i've done the oldest race on the peninsula (3 states) since it started, the last 4 years :) so yeah, in just a few years we've gone from having to leave the peninsula for anything other that WTC to being able to race around our own backyard. there is respect here too. i have had cars come up beside me and ask if i wanted a draft, i've never been buzzed by a vehicle - instead everyone gives a WIDE space,moving over into the next lane - i get thumbs up a lot - i have had people offer me gatorade twice on the road from their cars. or maybe i just look like an ancient lady suffering horribly and they're taking pity on me. :)

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http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit

i've been to san gil, valle de bravo, huatulco and a few others. ixtapa, cabos. the mexicans do triathlon really well. i like the idea of xel-ha. only thing is i'm not that fond of that stretch of pavement. i've ridden from playa del carmen to xel-ha and back i'd much rather ride up on the plateau. if i was going to come down your way i'm more likely to do cozumel.

i'm intrigued by chiapas, always wanted to go to san cristobal, never have, but it's the weekend immediately following interbike and it would be pretty irresponsible for me to cut interbike short to travel to that race. but i might anyway ;-)

funny thing, in 1986 when i decided to call my company quintana roo i chose that name for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that nobody had every heard of it, the place was mysterious, nobody really knew what went on down there on that peninsula, strange name for a place in mexico, and now there are probably a half-dozen major triathlons either in that state of proximate to it.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Can a tri bike be used with stub aerobars or does it have to be a road bike?

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep