Can you please show me where they made a statement that TT bikes are allowed in draft legal events? Please show me that statement, thanks.

ETA: What facts do you need? I've repeatedly posted the rulebook for draft legal I think 1 time as a link, and 1 time full text. That's my facts for what equipment wil be needed. You seem to think that's incorrect.


Dave, you seem to be grasping at this idea that you'll be good on your TT bike. That has never been the case, and never will be the case.

So my question to you is:

Are you going to buy a road bike, yes or no?

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

These comments back to Dan, which he posted, from the ITU the first time.

"Road geometry frame"

well... i wouldn't necessarily assume that. here are answers i got back today from the ITU.

SLOWTWITCH: I�m assuming that you will be allowing road race bikes only, no tri bikes, in the first draft-legal age-group sprint worlds. Are you moving toward no clip-ons at all? And what other equipment rule changes will there be?

ITU: To date, there haven�t been any equipment rule changes. However, it is something the technical committee will take into consideration ahead of the rule implementation.

SLOWTWITCH: . When it comes to world championships for age-group racing, what kinds of format changes would you like to see beside draft-legal? Do you see pontoons and all of that? Or is it really just a change in bike rules and bike equipment?

ITU: At this point it's just a change in bike drafting rules.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

How is that not clear what they said the first time he asked?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Yes I coach athletes that race in the ITU format, coached both elite and EDR athletes. I HIGHLY recommend doing an Rev3 Rush event. A ton of fun, small waves (15 per wave), super hard fun 30 min races.

I've said countless times the big issue with DL racing format in AGers will be the bike course, and how it deals with lapped riders. I've said repeatedly that for it to work in AG ranks, that either they need a 1 loop bike course or they just need to deal with the "competitive fairness" being compromised by various different wave group athletes all racing side by side.

If you can handle that compromise, then racing current ITU format, of short bike loops works for you. But if you want to pull those lapped athletes, then it will not work for AG athletes, as so many will be discouraged and never want to do that racing.


Now I favor a 1 loop bike course because you can get more waves on the course quicker, and neither waves really ever affect others. That's where it will pick up, but the downside is that it's not the cute entertaining event that families and friends get to see at the traditional ITU races. It essentially is the same feel as a non-draft event, just that your drafting on the bike now.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

And if you can give me the link to the ITU website which says TT bikes are not allowed and all the other details that you are saying are already decided, like the Elite DL rules will be used.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Do you really think they are going to allow TT bikes in draft events? Did you really think that was the case? That's what you got from Dan's 1st set of questions? I took it the other way in that they were changing from non-draft to draft and then there will be no equipment changes as it pertains to their rules.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

That is what they basically said when Dan asked the first time.

Folks draft all the time at our events today, so what is the big deal?

Interesting that we both read the same words and come back with different understandings. That is fair.

This is why I am asking where on the ITU website you can point me that says NO TT BIKES at 2016 worlds DL sprint race. Am not saying you are wrong but ...

"Road geometry frame"

well... i wouldn't necessarily assume that. here are answers i got back today from the ITU.

SLOWTWITCH: I�m assuming that you will be allowing road race bikes only, no tri bikes, in the first draft-legal age-group sprint worlds. Are you moving toward no clip-ons at all? And what other equipment rule changes will there be?

ITU: To date, there haven�t been any equipment rule changes. However, it is something the technical committee will take into consideration ahead of the rule implementation.

SLOWTWITCH: . When it comes to world championships for age-group racing, what kinds of format changes would you like to see beside draft-legal? Do you see pontoons and all of that? Or is it really just a change in bike rules and bike equipment?

ITU: At this point it's just a change in bike drafting rules.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Dad asked no tri bikes? ITU came back and said no equipment changes. How you can read this saying they said no TT bikes I just do not understand.

Then they said "it's just a change to the bike drafting rules". Nothing else was stated.

.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I agree. I think it will be a fun event. Hopefully RDs can find locations with one bike loop. If that's the case, then basically have a normal race with road bikes and allow drafting on the bike.

Though, I have no idea if that is what ITU or USAT is thinking about.

Dan's already addressed this. ITU has clarified and said no. Why wont you accept that?

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

As long as the course is closed, I cant see why USAT would bother. In fact, if they did bother with the permit, let's call them on that. I know Dan would love to get info like that with regards to permitting races.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Why should I accept something when asked has gotten multiple different answers?

Why can you not provide an ITU link with the facts that you say are in stone?

You might be right, but would I bet my job on something ITU has given 2 answers to the same question on which one long term is going to be right?

AGAIN, I have no idea what the answers are or will be, but I sure know there are way more questions than I see on the ITU website with answers.
When I see these answers on the ITU website, and the USAT website, then we will know. Until then, we are all just guessing. You might be right, or you might be wrong.
I have no idea.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

You don't have to accept it. You can live with "well what if what if what if what if" questions you currently are doing all you want to. But the gist is simple, and everyone else gets it's.

2016 Sprint Worlds will be draft legal and on road bikes. Nothing more to say about this topic. That's where we stand. You want to accept it or not, it wont change the fact that 2016 world champs ITU sprint race will be raced on road geometry frames. So you can "worry" that it might change, or you can go get a road bike and train your ass off in the swim and bike. Your choice, we cant make that decision for you. But Dave, I'm out. I get your stance now. Your holding onto this idea that you "have no idea" what worlds rules they are going to be raced under. You are about the only one with that worry at this time. Everyone else understands it's road bikes only.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

I played out the scenario. That was the point. Those were real numbers from a race this season.


That's funny, because in the actual race a few months ago, I distinctly remember getting caught just before T2 by the guy that rode the fastest split in the AG and the 4th fastest split OA. He was 1:17 behind me coming out of T1. Mr. 4th place came out of T1 20 seconds ahead of that guy, so would have latched on to his wheel almost right away. I'm completely baffled how that would be "mis-riding" the bike leg.

1. can you draft off somebody not in your "race"? Yes - it would be too hard to police.

2. should you be able to have any clip ons at all? Not sure.

3. how deep should wheels be allowed to be? Stick with the ITU/UCI rules, even if they suck.

4. are you obliged to retire if you're lapped? No.

5. should RDs be only allowed to have so many laps per race? It's up to the RD and the course, but I imagine there is going to be a need to keep lap counts down (less than 3?) because athletes can't count. And I say that somewhat jokingly, but it's easy to lose track when you're racing.

6. should there be any prerequisites to entering? This is a tough one. I personally feel that we should work hard to keep triathlon open to everybody. Does that mean we have to introduce a Cat system like USAC? I could see it. Instead of AG waves, we have Cat waves?

7. can you ride an MTB bike? Yes, to my point above, everybody should be able to try a tri. They'll just have to suck it up. I did my first 4 tris on a mountain bike. Still had a huge smile on my face.

8. should we shit-can 1.3.073 entirely for draft legal? No. I think we should try to keep things consistent to make it less confusing for new people. Hell, I still can't convince my father-in-law that my local sprint is not an Ironman. The simpler we can make the sport and the more consistent we can be with international rules, the better.

I have a few other open questions:
1. Will we see existing races go draft legal? At a minimum, drafting becomes one less thing for officials to deal with.

2. Will this do anything to improve TV coverage for triathlon? A multi-lap DL race would be potentially easier to put on TV. If anything, spectators might enjoy it because they get to see their athletes more often. But, I don't think we should confuse "draft legal" with "multi-lap" - they are two distinctly different things, even if we're used to draft-legal races tending to be multi-lap.

3. How will this affect the triathlon bike industry? If I want to get into triathlon, or if I want to just simplify my costs of participating in cycling-related sports, I can now buy just a road bike, race DL triathlons, race crits, ride gran fondos, and do my local group rides with one bike. That's actually pretty appealing to me.

4. How will this affect the triathlon race industry? This expands on my first open question, but I'm wondering if this will also introduce a potential for higher insurance costs due to higher perceived risk, and therefore higher race entry costs?

Overall, I like the idea.

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Travis Rassat
Vector Cycle Works
Noblesville, IN
BikeFit Instructor | FMS | F.I.S.T. | IBFI
Toughman Triathlon Series Ambassador

Yeah that's fair. Tell me again how you got 2nd in non-draft but you'd be passed by 2 other people? How did you get 4th and not maybe 3rd?

In DL racing, with your swim strength, it's pointless to do DL racing, because your going to suffer the most. So yes for you, you'd hate it, IF you didn't want to "re-work" your race. Meaning instead of going out to a 1:07 lead, you come out in 20s in T1, take your time to get all your bike setup and then latch on to the wheels of 2nd/3rd. Then you get to work with others, come in with top 3 together, and then see what happens (you'd save energy in both the swim and bike). But if your saying your swim is relegated, yes I'll agree to that. If that's why you wont do DL, fair enough, enjoy non-draft.

So you cant just apply non-draft splits to DL splits and say where you'd be. To race it smartly and give yourself the best change, you'd need to not go out so hard in the swim and only be up or swim just at the front. No need to even be that far ahead of the swim pack.
ETA: You would have 10 coaches telling you to sit up by lap 2 of the bike under the scenario you did to establish your finish. So again, DL races are tactical more than just "splits". It makes ZERO sense to be that far ahead out of swim if you are getting caught. So a good coach would tell you to back off the swim, and latch onto wheels early in the bike. You may not like that, but that's how you would race DL effectively. So just applying splits and saying you'd be forth, ahh doesn't really work that way. It does if you aren't smart about how you race. But if you cant hold a lead into T2, you'd be best to sit up in swim and wait for front group on lap 1 of the bike. Have a full 20k to sit in on wheels. You can also help work since you have a weak run to put more time on chasing athletes.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

I am very interested in this type of race format.

I have two draft legal age group races within driving distance, but unfortunately, with injuries and scheduling conflicts I have not been able to race either. I am a better runner than cyclist and definitely a better cyclist than swimmer, but I like that this type of format POTENTIALLY makes the whole race matter. It also provides motivation to actually improve across all areas as opposed to relying on the bike and the swim to make up for lsot ground.

I hope it actually encourages some of the faster guys to show up and race sprint distance races too, as there seems to all too often be the belief that you need to focus on going long and not going fast as you get more experience. Personally, I love the speed of short racing, but it could be because its what I've done or be because of the way the ITU provides coverage of its events versus the WTC.

At the end of the day, it provides another option, one that I hope becomes viable, but time will tell.

You race a DL race tactically smart and you would not get beat 1/4 mi to go. But "splits" won't show that.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

As expected, you continue to not answer any fair questions, or provide links to an ITU website with what you think they are doing, said.

I will just keep posting what the ITU did sent to Dan in writing.

"Road geometry frame"

well... i wouldn't necessarily assume that. here are answers i got back today from the ITU.

SLOWTWITCH: I�m assuming that you will be allowing road race bikes only, no tri bikes, in the first draft-legal age-group sprint worlds. Are you moving toward no clip-ons at all? And what other equipment rule changes will there be?

ITU: To date, there haven�t been any equipment rule changes. However, it is something the technical committee will take into consideration ahead of the rule implementation.

SLOWTWITCH: . When it comes to world championships for age-group racing, what kinds of format changes would you like to see beside draft-legal? Do you see pontoons and all of that? Or is it really just a change in bike rules and bike equipment?

ITU: At this point it's just a change in bike drafting rules.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

My god, would anyone really show up to a draft legal tri and draft with 50-60 AGers with no idea of skill or qualifications?//

You mean like it is now? All i see is that most will be on bikes more suited to drafting and it should be a lot safer. Probably a lot safer than any cat 5 race at the beginning of the season..

Do we really think that the ITU has eliminated the NDL Sprint race, with thousands of folks at WC, and many more than this at various qualifying events throughout the world, for
a DL Sprint WC with maybe a hundred or two? This is why something is just not adding up.

USAT gets thousands doing Sprint Nationals. They are just going to say lets get rid of all this money and replace it with a race that is DL for a hundred folks? Who pays the bills? How do you sell
the heads in bed to a community?

Something just does not smell right.

I have no idea what is going to happen, but just does not make sense to kill a huge race series, NDL sprint, with a tiny DL sprint series.

And mark as you have stated many times on ST, the WC events have been basically draft legal anyways, so whats the big deal since they never had bike officials handing out penalties.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

SLOWMAN: Unclear at the time of the announcement was what rules would be in use. Could you still ride a tri bike or is it road bikes only? This morning the ITU's media manager, Erin Greene, wrote to Slowtwitch, "The age-group sprint will now follow draft-legal rules. Those rules state that bikes have to be draft legal, which means there would not be TT bikes and no long clip-ons allowed. The technical committee, however, will continue to review the rules for age group races throughout the implementation process."

This means road bikes only, with the use of short clip-ons. One assumes that the question of clip-ons at all will be broached between now and that 2016 race.

From the front page article. This data came after the conversation you keep posting.

Another thing I would worry about is teamwork / aiding. In DL races it would pay bigtime to have someone bury themselves for you on the bike. Think about it: you and your friend bury the swim, then you tuck in and rest while he/she also buries the bike. Then you're fresh for the run and his/her day is over. It already happens (somewhat rarely) in non DL races, so I guarantee it goes way up in DL, especially since I really can't see any way of policing it in AG racing. Gorilla suits will be the least of their problems.

And that was my only point. For me DL doesn't make sense. I won't ever run 6:30 or better miles in a sprint like the faster runners in my local AG. It's not going to happen in this lifetime. If I come in to T2 with the guys I'm usually competitive with, forget it. No amount of sitting in would allow me to run with them.

Yes but that is DL racing is. Whether it's a teammate or instant "friend", that's why DL racing is so different. It's in your interest to find friends and help others and "share" the workload.

So whether it's purpose teammates or on the fly packmate, aiding/teamwork is being involved. Any concept of individual work goes out the window, it's how smart and tactical can you be to be successful.

It's like the other guy. In DL racing, it makes zero sense to be an swim hero and come out alone IF you cant back it up on the bike. So you work the group in the swim, all the while your saving energy. Then you'll have workmates on the bike and you save energy. So that guy who essentially iTT'd all the way to T2 and got caught, now saves energy in both the swim and bike, and can "save" some for an weak run. Then, I'll bet he has a stronger run.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

categorized racing

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