Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 14 15:10

Post #26 of 266 (4032 views)

BDoughtie wrote:

I finally have seen the light from Dan. The only way AG DL works is a 1 lap bike course, assuming we want 500 to show up at the race and it not take 14 hours to run 10 different races. Or shall I say, the only way it keeps it fair/less headaches. But then your mom and dad and gma miss seeing you 5 times on the bike, and that's really become an exciting part of DL racing.

I could care less about multiple laps. Make it a single lap. I just see this getting rid of the drafting fights ST gets in. And this now will make folks having to learn how to swim, or the train maybe gone.

.

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 14 15:14

Post #27 of 266 (4028 views)

My god, would anyone really show up to a draft legal tri and draft with 50-60 AGers with no idea of skill or qualifications?

Yeah, that would be me. I entered the first ever draft legal age group race over in Clermont several years ago. There was a separate race for men and women (75 field limit) and I naively thought there would be other over-50 men that I could work with. So there I was lining up with over 90% of the field between about 18-23 yrs old checking out the format and preparing for the collegiate national champs. They called your name one by one and you selected your starting position on a blue or red square...75 across. Officials raised their flags to indicate whether a fair start was ready before the actual gun. Then holy crap, the kids shot off the mat like out of a cannon! I swam for all I was worth and I think I beat all of 2 people out of the water. No draft train for me as the young men were all long gone. I had to bust my solo ass just to keep from getting lapped on the 3 loop bike course.

Now back to the other point. Although there have only been a few of these races, I would guess the rules are already in place...at least they are at Clermont. You can have clip ons as long as they don't extend beyond the hoods of your handlebars. I rode 404s on my road bike...totally acceptable. Bikes and uniforms were inspected in advance per ITU rules. Guys who had two piece outfits that exposed any midsection had officials covering the offensive skin with duct tape. So wear an ITU one piece with zipper in the back. The bike course shot right through the center of transition on each loop so the elimination rule for getting passed was critical else someone might have gotten clocked while in T2.

Anyway, I think it is a great concept as long as the field isn't too large. I would try it again if there were more old guys out there.

Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 14 15:19

Post #28 of 266 (4021 views)

h2ofun wrote:

BDoughtie wrote:

I finally have seen the light from Dan. The only way AG DL works is a 1 lap bike course, assuming we want 500 to show up at the race and it not take 14 hours to run 10 different races. Or shall I say, the only way it keeps it fair/less headaches. But then your mom and dad and gma miss seeing you 5 times on the bike, and that's really become an exciting part of DL racing.

I could care less about multiple laps. Make it a single lap. I just see this getting rid of the drafting fights ST gets in. And this now will make folks having to learn how to swim, or the train maybe gone.

.

It's gonna have to be multiple laps because draft legal requires a closed course (and if your person directing traffic screws up, I can promise you from experience, you will get quite the tongue lashing from a USAT ref). We have a hard enough time closing the roads around Fiesta Island for long enough to hold the AG sprint DL race I help RD in February (i.e., hard time in a super triathlon-friendly city in the off-season).

The big issue is my mind is the ITU rule capping wave size at 75. Stay tuned for how to get around that since we had 66 in the men's wave this year. We almost certainly will hit 75 in 2015.

Oh yeah, if you want experience for Worlds 2016, come race Tritonman.

Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 14 15:20

Post #29 of 266 (4020 views)

what rules does the junior circuit use? are they any different than normal ITU rules? seems like that would be where to start. a lot of those kids are racing draft legal before non-draft!

Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 14 15:22

Post #30 of 266 (4016 views)

BDoughtie wrote:

If ''you race'' is you wave or age group, I'd say draft whoever you want. If the second place guy in AG40-45 doesn't catch the passing wave, I say tell him to swim faster.

________
I have to laugh that the 2nd best guy in an AG is told to "swim faster" as to the justification to why the guy who beats him by 6s and was able to by sheer luck of time jump on another waves wheels and he didn't. The stupidity in that logic makes no sense to me. ETA: I feel like we are dumbing down DL racing just to get the masses involved?

You won't be able to enforce who you can and who you can't draft. In reality, the chances of one guy coming out of T1 just in time to catch a fast draft and the next guy riding the race on his own are pretty slim. If it's going to be draft legal, it should be open drafting. Otherwise you have a similar but different mess than the one we have with non-drafting races where half the race is drafting. If you want to legislate who can draft off of who, how will you enforce it?

---------------------------
''Sweeney - you can both crush your AG *and* cruise in dead last!! 😂 '' Murphy's Law

Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 14 15:24

Post #31 of 266 (4012 views)

HuffNPuff wrote:

Although there have only been a few of these races, I would guess the rules are already in place...

Yeah, this. There's also already a USAT National Championship with a sprint DL race, so yeah. Rules are more or less in place. I'm not 100% positive, but I don't think our officials have ever checked the saddle rule. For the rest of my answers to Dan's questions, see http://ucsdtriathlon.org/tritonman/draft-legal/.

Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 14 15:25

Post #32 of 266 (4009 views)

Okay, I'll answer the questions directly:

Slowman wrote:

1. can you draft off somebody not in your "race"?

No.

Quote:

2. should you be able to have any clip ons at all?

No.

Quote:

3. how deep should wheels be allowed to be?

No idea. Disks if you want (not in front) for all I care.

Quote:

4. are you obliged to retire if you're lapped?

Yes. In fact there should be a cut-off at the swim of first+x%. Solution is a one-lap bike course.

Quote:

5. should RDs be only allowed to have so many laps per race?

Logic should dictate this, but since I've seen so many poorly-thought-out courses, seems some regulation is needed. 2 laps?

Quote:

6. should there be any prerequisites to entering?

Again, logic dictates that this should be so, but I've also seen plenty of bone-headed moves by so-called experienced bike racers, would it really help? Heck, there are crashes in the pro ranks.

Quote:

7. can you ride an MTB bike?

I don't see why not. I don't see anyone on a MTB as really competing anyway.

Quote:

8. should we shit-can 1.3.073 entirely for draft legal?

Go with the UCI regs.

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [siegfried08] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 14 15:26

Post #33 of 266 (4008 views)

"It's gonna have to be multiple laps because draft legal requires a closed course"

why do you think this?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [odin99] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 14 15:27

Post #34 of 266 (4007 views)

Every junior race in the US and i'm pretty sure most of the world follow the ITU draft legal rulebook.

Which again, I'm not sure why we don't start there and then expand. This idea of just throwing out the rulebook and saying all 800 athletes can just draft with your p5, plasmas, seems to be missing an key safety issue. I don't even think that's allowed in cycling events, yet it's going to become the standard for AG (who have no standard to follow to sign up) DL triathlons?

------------------
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USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 14 15:33

Post #35 of 266 (4000 views)

the ITU clarified this today, no TT bikes in AG DL. but they didn't know without checking with the technical committee, which i thought was kind of interesting. still, at least we're not letting TT bikes go draft legal.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 14 15:35

Post #36 of 266 (3995 views)

Just so many questions, and so few answers.

Now if USAT decides they do not want to field a Sprint DL TeamUSA for 2016, let alone a sprint DL nationals for 2015, then we really have no changes in the US.

So, until you get more info from Barry, we all may be wasting a lot of energy.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 14 15:38

Post #37 of 266 (3993 views)

Slowman wrote:

"It's gonna have to be multiple laps because draft legal requires a closed course"

why do you think this?

Because I got a 10 minute speech from J (our head ref in 2013) about how incredibly unsafe having cars + DL race on the same road is.

I could see you getting by with a dedicated lane of a multi-lane road. But I do think you need at least a lane entirely closed. As an RD, I would not feel comfortable running a DL race on an open course. Everyone has had the experience needing to slow down because of an asshole driver on a race course (in fact, I have had this experience in probably >50% of the races I have entered). In draft-free racing, maybe you need to swerve and it's a few seconds off your time. Not a huge deal. In draft legal racing, that, at best, could spit a rider off the pack (and for all intents and purposes ending his day) or, at worse, someone needs to swerve and you have a pile up on your hands. I'm sure you can argue past all this, but I think (pack racing) + (average higher speeds) + (nerves) + (cars) is a bad equation to be getting into here.

Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [siegfried08] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 14 15:42

Post #38 of 266 (3986 views)

A number of races I do with one RD in Northern california basically does this on all his bike courses. They cone off a complete lane of a multi lane road. Other parts they shut the cars down completely.
It is a one lap course.

So unless one says what a "closed course" means, there are many ways to make a safe DL course with a single lap and no issues with cars.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [siegfried08] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 14 15:45

Post #39 of 266 (3981 views)

"because I got a 10 minute speech from J (our head ref in 2013) about how incredibly unsafe having cars + DL race on the same road is."

if i give you an 11 minute speech saying that it depends on the roads and the race, will you change your mind?

let me ask you this. our local road race is pretty large, as road races go. 16.6 mile loop. the road is open to cars. the road is quite rural. all the intersections are manned by volunteer CHP. is this race incredibly unsafe?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 14 15:49

Post #40 of 266 (3971 views)

BDoughtie wrote:

I honestly don't understand why people have an issue with this. Ride whatever wheel you want. Bridge whatever gap you can. What am I missing?

--------------

Competitive fairness. Let's say it's a 3 lap bike course, and the 40-49 AG is coming out of the swim and the U30 guys are already on the bike. U30 guys come through lap 1 and start of lap 2 just as the lead swimmer of 40 AG guy gets on bike. He jumps on the wheel of the U30 guys, and uses that advantage while 2nd place guy in 40AG is stuck doing the work on his own (he couldn't get on a group).

I've seen this happen at a DL race this spring, and it really causes competitive issues. Now if you don't really care, and it's truly a "free for all", you wont care, you'll tell the 2nd place 40AG to suck it up, he should have swam faster or been more lucky.

Right, that I understand. My feeling, though, is "them's the breaks". I mean, in the swim, I've caught onto the toes of a girl coming up from behind me and used her draft. I've also drafted off a 62-year-old found in a time trial start. It all doesn't bother me. The draft leaders are where they are, and the race progresses as it will.

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 14 15:50

Post #41 of 266 (3970 views)

I was actually referring to the number of folks in a wave (and 50-60 is too low) not ages

I think your 75 field limit and separate M/F races though is at least workable. That I can get behind. In my head I've got fields of 600-1000 people signing up for races, going off in 6-12 waves.....

Here in L.A. the RD for the LA Tri has changed to an "ITU style" course, 5 loops for Oly, 2 for sprint, 1500 people at some point all out on the same small residential street course, 2 180 turns and 5 90 degree or greater turns per lap. The swim start is going to be in a small wave time trial format. And he wants an ITU race there like Chicago with the Brownlees and Gomez etc. I plan to be there to watch the carnage

Last edited by: ChrisM: Jul 21, 14 15:50

Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 14 15:53

Post #42 of 266 (3964 views)

bear in mind that for this race it is NOT draft legal. i kind of think it would be better if it was.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 14 16:03

Post #43 of 266 (3946 views)

Slowman wrote:

bear in mind that for this race it is NOT draft legal. i kind of think it would be better if it was.

True.

But Caress has said he wants to bring Chicago style racing to LA. Now, I can't see it for regular AGers. But I also can't see pros wanting to race this course

I'm curious about the better comment though. With regular AG waves? 5 loops? 1500 people? 180 turns at the bottom of big descents? Have you been to a tri lately??? /pink to the last one....

Last edited by: ChrisM: Jul 21, 14 16:05

Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Sweeney] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 14 16:07

Post #44 of 266 (3936 views)

The more likely scenario is the people who were slower swimmers get caught by faster riders and latch on. That erases the benefit of the faster swimmers when they all group together. It is completely unfair to draft off other categories. That said, it would be a nightmare to police.

Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 14 16:14

Post #45 of 266 (3926 views)

h2ofun wrote:

Just so many questions, and so few answers.

Now if USAT decides they do not want to field a Sprint DL TeamUSA for 2016, let alone a sprint DL nationals for 2015, then we really have no changes in the US.

You mean no changes other than not being able to race at sprint worlds if you are from the USA.

Last edited by: Jctriguy: Jul 21, 14 16:15

Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 14 16:19

Post #46 of 266 (3915 views)

Dan,
what is classification of 'sprint' distance? 750/20/5? or 1/30/8?

Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 14 16:28

Post #47 of 266 (3902 views)

i'm not saying that this is a course i admire. i'm saying that if you're stuck with this course, and if all those bikes are going to be on this course at the same time, DL with a lot of bikes with no aerobars seems maybe the lesser of possible evils.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [shep] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 14 16:29

Post #48 of 266 (3899 views)

"what is classification of 'sprint' distance? 750/20/5? or 1/30/8?"

i think it's the former.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 14 16:30

Post #49 of 266 (3898 views)

Slowman wrote:

i'm not saying that this is a course i admire. i'm saying that if you're stuck with this course, and if all those bikes are going to be on this course at the same time, DL with a lot of bikes with no aerobars seems maybe the lesser of possible evils.

I think on that course, on that day, with that many people, it's gonna be a draft race, legal or not :)

Do you think though that the average adult onset triathlete age grouper has the group bike handling skills to not present a danger to themselves and others? Even without aerobars. I have my doubts.

Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Jul 21, 14 16:30

Post #50 of 266 (3898 views)

Slowman wrote:

lots more to write about this but my first shot is up on the home page.

we oughta get in front of this and start deciding on the rules. for example:

1. can you draft off somebody not in your "race"? NO..It is ESSENTIAL that this is enforced.
2. should you be able to have any clip ons at all? NO! Racing draft-legal a bit myself I find that you don't need them. Only time I use them is if I am solo. Even if I am sitting on the front I wouldn't use the bars as it means my reaction time to an attack would be a little slower. In terms of AGs it would be dangerous because all it takes is one idiot sitting on the bars in the bunch...could end badly.
3. how deep should wheels be allowed to be? sub 60mm
4. are you obliged to retire if you're lapped? Yes!
5. should RDs be only allowed to have so many laps per race? No...1 max 2
6. should there be any prerequisites to entering? Endorsement from a triathlon coach, that what is required in AUS
7. can you ride an MTB bike? Hell no
8. should we shit-can 1.3.073 entirely for draft legal?

plus other stuff i haven't yet considered, but that a number of you will.

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