In a sprint race with 3 laps I don't think there can be any serious climbs, the race just isn't long enough.

jaretj

Cavendish on 808's. Plenty more examples about. Most seem on 60mm deep or less, though.

Or maybe you should read your own website: http://www.slowtwitch.com/...e_new_808s_2118.html

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The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock

No not at all. I am worried that someone incapable of pack riding takes out a group of people causing massive injuries. Someone incapable of open-water swimming is only endangering themselves. I don't care about that. I am worried about the guy who might come up behind me, take a draft, and accidentally run into me when he farts and takes me out.

I would think USAT would use the U19 division at JE Nats to field that requirement atleast.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

"In a sprint race with 3 laps I don't think there can be any serious climbs, the race just isn't long enough."

i see your point. again, tho, i just don't see 3-lap sprint courses being the model for AG DL racing.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

ah, well, yes. my own experience with wheels 80mm or deeper is that i'm pretty much good to go, except on windy descents. i suspect that's why fields are on 60mm or even, really, 40mm. spring classics in the benelux, not much in the way of high speed descents. i'd not ride even a 60mm wheel on a windy, 50mph descent, even on a road bike.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Dan you earlier posted this comment : that's why i'm thinking about a modified draft legal ruleset, where you don't have a drafting zone, but you don't get to take over the whole road either.


Expand on what you meant here?

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

I'm thinking that the number or races is going to be small, and they'll have to have closed courses. One of my gripes about the pro stagger rule is that we end up taking up one entire lane if there are more than about 4 athletes. I'm going to say that a lot of 'normal' age groupers aren't going to want to be too much closer together than 2 meters. I just feel like with the stagger rule, it ends up being unsafe on a lot of open courses and it's very tough for cars to pass if they need to do so.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

1. No. For a sprint distance waves can go off every ~30 min most athletes should be off the bike course or on the last lap before the next wave gets onto the bike. Having an "elite"/fast amateur/prize giving wave/s gets rid of all the really fast athletes. Could also have a for fun/slow wave at the end with no lap out for those that want to participate but are not competitive. Should get rid of most cases where drafting another race is a problem anyway.

2. As per ITU

3. ITU, could be at RD's discretion, but messy, i.e. no discs at Kona. Would have to be well publicised at signup, athlete instructions etc.

4. Yes, except maybe last wave. Most dangerous when one group laps another

5. Maybe recommendations, every location is different. Could have a lake, with a closed off road around it but needs n+1 laps, otherwise perfect venue. (n is mandated max number of laps). Also the size of fields/waves is a factor.

Currently draft legal is much more exciting and spectator friendly, with courses having multiple laps and coming past the spectators multiple times. A big part of the race atmosphere can be watching all the other waves and how their tactics play out. Can make a big thing of the elite wave and spectators/athletes can watch the race unfold.

6. No, should have projected times to beat to prevent being lapped out. For those worried about people with no bike handling experience in a group either a shout of "keep your line" or the appropriate problem will teach them how to behave. If that doesn't work it shouldn't be too hard to drop someone who has no experience riding in a group.

7. Why not, I have raced draft legal on a cyclocross bike with disc brakes.

8. Is that the only rule that needs a rethink? There are a lot of wheels that triathletes own not on the UCI list. Also there are a lot of rules in regards to the uniform, should they all stay? I do think some of the rules should carry over to non-drafting like the clean transition area and everything going into a bucket. I think there needs to be much more consistency in rules between the non-drafting and the draft legal forms, ideally just the parts regarding the bike and position and the use of the road.

I am excited by this, I enjoy draft legal racing and want to race more of them.

I'm generally opposed to draft legal racing, but if it is to be done in AG racing, then I would only allow non-aero bikes and perhaps shorty aerobars. AND, the courses should have serious hills.

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_________________
Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.

I was going to say that the 40-60 mm range seems the sweetest for all-around road race wheels. Going up to 80mm or beyond does buy a little more drag benefit, but at a definite cost in ride-ability. It also screams break. :)

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The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock

I am mostly a road and cross cyclist and I have to say that in every tri I have done (about 12 mixed over a 15 yr time period) people have been drafting quite frequently to my annoyance but it was technically not allowed. Mostly sprints and Olympics.

So I can see why in some ways it changes the nature of who can compete effectively since many are weak time trailers but many AGers should be used to the idea of drafting I'd wager.

I do agree on pack skill development as a needed part of training regiments with an expansion of draft legal events.
J

I think everyone is over thinking this. My guess is, for the most part, all this will do is eliminate drafting penalties.

In most fast group rides I do with the local bike club, which includes a lot of triathletes, very few of them attempt any more that a "wheel suck" type of draft. Very few can rotate, and when they try they usually run off the front or pull way too long, followed by getting spit out the back. I've never seen any of them actually cause a problem, and we ride some seriously fast miles in some pretty technical areas (traffic and turns wise).

That's not to say the wobbly person doesn't exist in a triathlon, just that no one will try to draft with them, and they wouldn't do what is required to allow it anyway.

This will be a non-issue.

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"...the street finds its own uses for things"

This is exactly what I have been thinking. Folks have been drafting for as long as this sport has existed. I just do not see this change any different than any race without officials on the bike course.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Yes and the fact you can't race on TT bike. So "safety" wise they pretty much eliminated some big worries. All that is left is the wave starts and or decisions on length of bike loops.
ETA: Not that I think there will be a standard, just that I think the industry will accept some type of yes/no on the lap out rules with AG'ers. There is no standard for bike loops now, some courses are 2 laps, some 4, etc. But the lap out rule has been pretty much accepted. I've thought for AG racing you cant have the lap out rule especially if your doing all kinds of waves on the course at one time, there would be no way to officiate it. So it seems like the logical choice is going to be you swim, you bike, you run, the fastest to the line is the winner. How you get to the finish line is up to you and the course. You get lucky and come out and find a break from previous lap, you take it. You don't get that lucky break, it's just the breaks of racing. Of course a 1 lap bike course fixes this. But if races want the loops for the "show" that is DL racing, that's how I see it going down.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

.....and this is why this is a goofy format for Age Group....to many problems to overcome to do it right.....and if you allow the above its a goofy event where luck plays a huge part. dumb.

my predictions:

Draft legal triathlons will be miniscule in the USA. Few races with small fields...a blip.

Two thoughts/questions I don't think I've seen raised here:

1) Right now in large (meaning more than 1 wave for each gender) non-DL races, the race for overall 1-2-3 often takes place between waves. That's certainly true at AG Nationals. While this isn't ideal (you can be racing closely with someone you never see), it seems like DL adds more unfairness to this scenario, because your race depends more on the people you come out of the swim with--your own wave. So for instance, a really fast 45-49 yr old might not have nearly as good a bike pack as the 25-29 yr olds, and that will impact the race more than if each had to bike alone. This could be changed by some more complicated system that had seeded waves, instead of AG waves, and maybe if the change only impacts a few races, those races can invest the effort to make that change.

2) This doesn't seem like a major concern for most ST folks, but I think more DL races would have a large impact on entry into the sport. Most sprint and Olympic races I do have a mix of super-competitive AGers and people just getting into the sport. I am in a club that does a lot of work to introduce people (esp. women, as it turns out) to triathlon, and very, very few of those folks (1 in the entire time I've been doing it) come from a bike racing background. Another way of saying this: the ST poll represents a segment of the triathlon-doing population, and I'm not sure how representative it is of the overall numbers. If maintaining or growing (or just not having a large decline in) the numbers of people doing triathlons is important to USAT, maybe this is something to consider.

It doesn't need to be mainstream, just offer enough opportunities to get it more in front of people. It never will be huge, cutting out TT automatically cuts your athlete pool by probaly 40%. Just as I thought no TT bikes was never going to be allowed, I think closed courses will be mandatory for USAT sanctioning.

I don't think it's a bad thing if DL never becomes big. I'd like to keep it with higher standards of production and deal with low number of races. I hope there are 1 lap courses but I think you'll see DL following the multiple loop bike course.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

I don't like this idea for Age Groupers, especially in the multi- wave format that is required to have all the athletes attending the races in the US. The fast people/swimmers are going to catch up to the slower people in the wave ahead of them and alter the results that would occur naturally in a ITT. Draft Legal works for the elite because they are all the same speed and there is no mixing of different abilities or age groups. DL works in smaller fields, but the races here in the US are so large, there is no way around not having multi-wave starts.

For example, the M20-24 are going to catch up to the M50-54 who started ahead of them and start sweeping the back of that pack forward. A poor swimmer in the 50-54 is going to be picked up by the pack first and the top swimmer in the M50-54 will be out front longer by himself.

I'm having a hard time figuring out the appeal of the draft legal event to the MOP (i.e. me). But I have an open mind. For me (slow swimmer, reasonably fast biker, esp. at shorter distances), I rarely encounter anyone in Sprint and Oly races that is worth drafting off of, much less multiple people. You can argue I should swim faster, and you'd be right. But will that really change anything?

For example, I completed a duathlon a couple weeks ago, so I started the bike in much better position than I usually would in a tri. Still, on a 2 loop course, 13 miles/loop, I remember encountering 1 person worth working with out of a 102 person wave (if it were a DL race). So how does my race strategy change here? Work really hard to try and find a fast person? Back off a bit and hope that someone passes me and I can latch on? Race at my desired pace and hope the competition doesn't catch the draft train? This seems like too much luck to me--not very appealing.

Maybe I'm not the right target person for this or I'm missing something. It seems like swim/run specialists can take advantage of DL as they can latch onto passing groups. It also works if you know which of your competitors you can bike with and you try and stick with them during the swim.

But in a normal AG start, with a bunch strangers with a wide spread of ability in the different disciplines, I don't see how you make those decisions.

Now, if I were racing a handful of my friends in a self-supported event, I think we'd have a lot of fun racing this way. I know what their respective strengths are and I'd basically try and drop the runners during the swim and the bike. Knowing that, maybe some sort of categorization/race series, where competitor lists/bib numbers are published (with prior race splits) before the race, might work ("I need to stay with 122 and 127 during the swim, it seems like they bike at my pace"). The categorization keeps people with similar paces together to keep it interesting for all of the competitors. Keep the races short so they don't require big taper and recovery periods. Still, even with this, I worry that the appeal is relatively narrow.

That's the gist with DL racing, IF your doing multi-bike loops. IF your doing loops on the bike, then you have to have lap out rules, or you just run into chaos. But then you piss off guys like you because there is no point to entering DL races.


In regards to DL tactics, I'd be willing to say you could find a few more guys to work with in that 102 people than you think. But your race strategy being that your a poor swimmer is that you'd be looking at having to essentially ride the bike as if it's a iTT and just try and pick up guys. If you could then get a few to latch on your wheel and rotate through, you'll gain enough of a rest period that the overall speed of the group will likely be faster than you just iTTing it. Of course this is AG racing, so you also will run into inefficient pulls, groups not working together. You'll be surprised that you can see a 6 person group and they all still are riding for themselves and not as a group. Watch women's races, it happens a lot of times there.

Finally there really are no decisions in DL. The swim is where you bust your ass to the first turn buoy and then the pace will start to settle down. But what you'll find is that if you get caught in the scrum on the turns, those guys ahead are swimming out and gaps form. That's why for ITU style success, a lot of the success comes from your 200 free time vs your 800f time. I've got a kid now that's a pretty good athlete, I'd wager could get his pro card at 70.3 distance within an year. Fantastic ability to sit on threshold all day. But ask him to go into redline and sit there, and he blows up and cant recover. It's not bad, I think you can correct some of it, but at the end of the day, you have to play to your strengths.

So the advice I would give you. Give DL racing a try, just because it's probably something to say you did. But if you get done and say "enough", that's fair too. Nothing wrong with not being successful or comfortable in the format, especially if you struggle with it.

I love this quote from one of the ITU guys on this site (I think he heard it elsewhere, but it was Jason Pedersen). Best way to sum up ITU: It's like fighting a gorilla, you don't give up when your tired, you give up when the gorilla is tired.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

The "Adult-Onset Triathletes" can learn to draft and ride packs much the same way "Adult-Onset Master's Cyclists" learn that...

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ZONE3 - We Last Longer

Dan, the more I think about this, the more issues and questions I have.

If I look at what you posted the first time the ITU got back to you, it was below.

SLOWTWITCH: I’m assuming that you will be allowing road race bikes only, no tri bikes, in the first draft-legal age-group sprint worlds. Are you moving toward no clip-ons at all? And what other equipment rule changes will there be?

ITU: To date, there haven’t been any equipment rule changes. However, it is something the technical committee will take into consideration ahead of the rule implementation.

SLOWTWITCH: . When it comes to world championships for age-group racing, what kinds of format changes would you like to see beside draft-legal? Do you see pontoons and all of that? Or is it really just a change in bike rules and bike equipment?

ITU: At this point it's just a change in bike drafting rules.

Then when you wrote you article, things changed, but not with more clarity.


So, I really have no idea what the ITU is trying to do. Are they saying the above which is just stop enforcing drafting penalties and everything else is the same like field size? Or are they saying they are taking the DL Elite rules and adding AGers?

I just see no way the later will work. Am I going to have to buy 2 bikes? Would I have to ship 2 different bikes to worlds if I were to do both distances like I am this year?

I still think if your first response back is what the race becomes, great. If not, I do not see how large fields could happen. I then do not see how a Sprint DL could make a profit with a small field and survive. Or heads in beds.

I just think there is a chance the ITU made a big mistake with this announcement before it was thought through with the NF's first. (WTC has made a few mistakes with rule changes and had to undue them).

So, until I see a LOT more details, at the moment, I would not be making any changes since this might never happen.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Wasn't the recent "Rush" event draft legal? I understand it was a weekend with multiple heats, etc., but I imagine something can be learned from it. Also, what are the other organizations (outside of US) doing?

I can't imagine that DL racing will become the norm. You and several others are offering reasons why that won't be the case. However, I don't see what there can't be several (10 or more) races nation-wide that are constructed in such a manner that a DL race is possible, especially if a single-loop bike course. I think that is what will happen. And, there could be a national championship based on qualifying from the only DL races around that would tend to be more elite.

I believe some people here are overthinking this. It can be sorted out. It has in other countries. What makes US so special that we can't figure it out?

Dave, I don't think things ever changed. It seems you had this illusion that they were going to turn the race into TT bikes + draft legal. That was never going to ever be on the consideration table. Which is why I said, you were assuming that and from what I was reading ITU was simply going to follow their rules under the "drafting" section.

But they were never going to "re do" the rule book.


What mistake did ITU make? It seems you were in favor of having races where you could ride your TT bike and draft, and that would be the only change. That aint going to happen on ITUs watch. Now you can go do your buddies race and enjoy it and race under an non-federation sanctioned race. It can even be successful, but that type of rule aint going to fly for USAT/ITU.

As I said from the very beginning, this is all really simply, you just don't like that it's changing equipment. Yes that makes it harder, yes that means you have to buy another bike. Does that make it a limiter, you bet. But if it's a limiter because of "safety" issues, then I'm for it. I was never for your idea of racing where they simply took out the non-draft rules, and made it a free for all on TT bikes.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com