the results of a DL WC in the sprint distance will be a joke if they just allow drafting for 1,000 participants....

by the way, if you swim slow and bike fast, I want you in my wave......

Yes I was at the Rush event. I loved it, AG'ers loved it. BUT you cant have that format and put pro cards or money on the line and not have a lap out rule (the EDR event, well the whole event did not use lap out rule). Rush was sorta an outlier because the bike loops were what 1/2 mile I believe. Like literally 80s per lap. That's impossible not to lap out like half the field. So if they went with that format and say Rev3 did them at Charlotte, Las Vegas speedways, they'd simply take out the lap rule and just have it as a "anything goes" (as was the case in Richmond). In that format, think of it more like an iTT where your simply allowed to draft. So if you come out 1 lap behind leaders, well jump on their wheel and just get free tow to T2.

Fantastic event, and I think they are going to be potentially doing one in Cali at some point. NO I've said DL wont become the norm. It doenst need to become the norm. But just have enough races so that it is a viable option IF you want to. I'm talking with USAT currently to see if they will provide funding for each USAT region to have 1 DL event. Let that serve as a qualifier for nationals. You could then have what 8-10 DL events with the following time line:

-Junior F/M Event
-Youth F/M event
-AG F/M event

Cap it at 75 per field, hold the races from 7am- 4pm and you'd be set.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Since your opinion is not what Dan got back the first time from the ITU, as I quoted from Dans post, time will tell. You might be right, as I have always said, and if so, I just do not see how this can work and make a profit.

So, I will continue to just see how this plays out. At the moment, I still think the ITU has acted too quickly on this idea without enough thoughts in how it would be implemented.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I wish. I swim slow, bike slow and at the moment can run fast. But if I were to do a DL race, I would put the time back into
swimming to get as good as I can, and then try to get a pack to hold onto the back on the bike. Then I can have fun on the run.

From what some are saying, the size of a DL field, if Elite DL rules are used, might be just 100. Might as well kill
the sprint AG distance race at Nationals and worlds if this is the case.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Yep, you and I just have a totally different view of what a DL AG race can be.

But if you are right, then USAT would just kill off the Sprint Nationals since there would be no need for a team to send to worlds. Too small.

Again, I do not think the ITU thought this out with the NF's before they commented. I still would not be surprised to see them pull the comment back unless something really changes.

And if the DL AG race is how you describe, I would no longer have any interest racing it. Too boring with that few people.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I've never once read where ITU said they are going to allow TT bikes. They have said from the 1st thing that they simply are changing the rules from non-draft to draft legal. Which means they follow THEIR draft legal rule book. They don't need to "re do" the rules, they already have the rules of the road. You simply don't think it'll work for AG'ers, or don't like that they wont just make it wild wild west style drafting on TT bikes.


Explain to me what they need to clarify? The only thing I need clarification on is wave sizes, everything else is setup just how I thought they would, in regards to the equipment changes.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

You may not like the ITU format of DL race, but I've never once heard it referenced as "boring". You would be in the very very small minority with thinking that it is a boring format.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

They did not say this. The first time they said this to Dan.

"Road geometry frame"

well... i wouldn't necessarily assume that. here are answers i got back today from the ITU.

SLOWTWITCH: I’m assuming that you will be allowing road race bikes only, no tri bikes, in the first draft-legal age-group sprint worlds. Are you moving toward no clip-ons at all? And what other equipment rule changes will there be?

ITU: To date, there haven’t been any equipment rule changes. However, it is something the technical committee will take into consideration ahead of the rule implementation.

SLOWTWITCH: . When it comes to world championships for age-group racing, what kinds of format changes would you like to see beside draft-legal? Do you see pontoons and all of that? Or is it really just a change in bike rules and bike equipment?

ITU: At this point it's just a change in bike drafting rules.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Again, we just read the same things totally differently.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I never said that! I think Long course stuff is boring. Read what I wrote. Short DL racing is fantastic to watch!!!

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

You just posted this comment:

And if the DL AG race is how you describe, I would no longer have any interest racing it. Too boring with that few people.


ETA: It's really simple. There are 2 rules by which ITU follows in regards to their races, non-draft and draft. There are no hybrid, there is no 3rd option. If it's drafting, they following drafting and the equipment rules regarding that segment. If it's non-draft they follow non-draft. There never was going to be TT bikes allowed, all that the ITU did in answering Dan's 1st question was saying they are changing to drafting rules. Nothing more, nothing less. So go read up on that section and you'll know what bikes, equipment is needed.

Now you can go do your buddies race where TT bikes are allowed and have a blast. Nothing wrong with that type of format, but I'm willing to wager you wont ever see that in an ITU/USAT sanctioned race. Maybe that's how they do it in Guatamala or Brazil, etc., but standard road bike is going to be required as will very likely closed course. Being that it's a closed course if it's an small bike loop, also likely going to have lap out rule in affect, because of the various wave starts. You could do a 1 lap course and do a rolling wave start and all will be good.

So to me it boils down to the bike loop. You put on an 1 lap bike course, and you'll be able to essentially have as many athletes sign up as you want. You could do 75 man waves and start every 30 mins, and the course will be clear for 98% of the athletes. You make an multi-loop bike course and you cant have rolling wave starts. The course is basically closed and each wave is an race in itself.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Realistically, I don't see most races flipping over to DL, I see a select series of races, nationals and worlds going to the DL format for AGers.

In Ontario at least, currently to race DL, you have to take a course to get a DL card, don't know if it helps, but gives people the basics. The ability based Category system on the road really does nothing to assess skill, just fitness. I have raced years at the cat 3 level (primarily, just because I haven't had the focused time to put in the work it takes to earn an upgrade), and have plenty of experience in races with people who can't ride their bike in anything close to a straight line, but are super fit, and either win from breaks or in a sprint, because they're so scary that nobody dares to try to go around them for fear of being taken down. There's always a risk, drafting or not...

As for equipment, generally I would say use the UCI definition in terms of basics, not necessarily require the stickers on everything (certainly many people have bikes and wheels that pre-date the labelling system). As for discs, I think it would be negligent to allow them in DL, cross-wind in a pack, lightweight rider, I've seen crashes in non-DL races with strong crosswinds from a rider with a disc passing someone, hitting a gust and putting the other rider in the ditch... But otherwise, if it;s a conventional wheel with a reasonable spoke count, it should be good to go. TT bikes are a no go (converted TT bikes should be fine), probably easier with no bars, but shorty aero-bars could work. The 5cm rule seems arbitrary, but I could see mandating that the nose be behind the centre of the BB, to avoid front loading the bikes too much (since that tends to mess up handling for a lot of people).

As for wave sizes, 75-100, so 2-3 AGs at once (for the smaller ones, you might be able to combine more). I don't think you need to pull lapped riders, just put an official moto with the lead pack, and anyone lapped can't integrate with packs on the lead lap. They police it well at road races, with minimal official vehicles compared to what I see at many tris, so it's really a non-issue.

Closed courses, or at least closed lanes make sense for safety (most multisport races I've ever done are on closed courses, or closed lanes anyways). if you cap the field sizes, I see no reason you can't do multi-loop courses. I personally would love technical courses with short punchy climbs to break things up on the bike...

I'm in a similar boat where DL wouldn't have much appeal to me. I'm a BOFOP (back of the front of the pack) AGer. If I podium or even threaten, it's because I was able to put time into everyone else on the swim and especially the bike. I podium in spite of my running, not because of it.

Example: 2nd place in a mini-sprint earlier this year, 5th percentile AG swim, 8th percentile AG bike, 16th percentile AG run. And that was a really good run for me.

With DL, what happens? The guy that comes out of the water 1:06 behind me doesn't lose another 1:30 to me on the bike (3rd fastest in AG). Instead he latches onto the guy 10 seconds behind him out of the water who rides the fastest bike split in the AG. They pass me just before T2 and I latch on to them. Top bike split guy is a lousy runner or blows up. Guy that finished 4th in the actual non-draft race, runs 20 seconds per mile faster than me and takes second. Guy that finished 3rd also rides faster when he latches on to a different wheel, runs 15 seconds per mile faster than me and passes me maybe 1/4 mile from the finish. I miss the podium completely.

That's the "only draft off your AG" scenario. Change that and it's just a total crap shoot what would have happened because the controlling factor is the luck of who comes by from another AG and when.

I can see the place for DL and even why it might be fun to try. I'll just be one of those hoping that its spread and impact is somewhat limited.

Ok let's play out your scenario.

IF your splits are correct, you will not get caught before T2. I don't care how well the 2/3 guy are working together. With an 1:06 advantage, that's nearly 4/10th a mile, with a 8th percentile bike split, your not going to get caught in only 12 miles. You may only be up 10-15s ahead of them by T2, but if you get caught with an 1:06 advantage, you didn't ride to your bike strength. So even if you do, you are basically even with the top bike split as the "sitting in" guy has you beat. So then it's you vs the other guy, both who are dog tired from the bike leg.

You may still get 4th, but you misrode the bike leg if you have a bike strength and gave up an full 1+ min advantage to 2 people.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Yep, I said for me too boring with that few people. That is being in the race, I said nothing about watching, which you stated I did. Why do you try to say I said things I have not?

As I think about this more, I continue to think the ITU has not given enough data.

What they have not said is, I think, is whether this new DL AG sprint race in 2016 is a complete new race with different specs, etc. as you suggest, or does it totally eliminate the non DL sprint race?
Have you seen anything in writing from the ITU that answers this question?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

to me this is all there is...<<SLOWTWITCH: . When it comes to world championships for age-group racing, what kinds of format changes would you like to see beside draft-legal? Do you see pontoons and all of that? Or is it really just a change in bike rules and bike equipment?

ITU: At this point it's just a change in bike drafting rules. >>
all they are doing is dropping the enforcement of the drafting rules. there is no additional specific info or clarification. the next time itu creates any racing or rules according to the needs or wishes of age group athletes will be the first time. I'm not thinking this is that time. brooks I agree with your approach but itu is not going to create anything that needs more enforcement, I just don't see it.

Dave, it's simple. No longer is the sprint race non-draft. It's now an draft legal event. Meaning new standards of equipment, etc. Nothing more, nothing less. They aren't adding or taking away any races, just changing to format.
Here's the language:

ITU would like to make you aware that its Executive Board has approved a change to the Competition Rules which will see the ITU Sprint Distance Age Group competition at the World Championship move from a "drafting-illegal" to a "drafting legal" competition.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Yep, that what they said. No where did they say this will be using Elite DL rules, which you keep trying to say they said.

And what Dan got back the first time from the ITU supports we have more questions than answers, even though you still cannot show something written from the ITU to support your claims on what will happened, unless I missed this release from the ITU.

"Road geometry frame"

well... i wouldn't necessarily assume that. here are answers i got back today from the ITU.

SLOWTWITCH: I’m assuming that you will be allowing road race bikes only, no tri bikes, in the first draft-legal age-group sprint worlds. Are you moving toward no clip-ons at all? And what other equipment rule changes will there be?

ITU: To date, there haven’t been any equipment rule changes. However, it is something the technical committee will take into consideration ahead of the rule implementation.

SLOWTWITCH: . When it comes to world championships for age-group racing, what kinds of format changes would you like to see beside draft-legal? Do you see pontoons and all of that? Or is it really just a change in bike rules and bike equipment?

ITU: At this point it's just a change in bike drafting rules.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Yep, that is all I have seen also but some seem to have secret information that none of us have seen yet on more details. What Dan posted from the ITU at first seems clear what they are/were thinking.

"Road geometry frame"

well... i wouldn't necessarily assume that. here are answers i got back today from the ITU.

SLOWTWITCH: I’m assuming that you will be allowing road race bikes only, no tri bikes, in the first draft-legal age-group sprint worlds. Are you moving toward no clip-ons at all? And what other equipment rule changes will there be?

ITU: To date, there haven’t been any equipment rule changes. However, it is something the technical committee will take into consideration ahead of the rule implementation.

SLOWTWITCH: . When it comes to world championships for age-group racing, what kinds of format changes would you like to see beside draft-legal? Do you see pontoons and all of that? Or is it really just a change in bike rules and bike equipment?

ITU: At this point it's just a change in bike drafting rules.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I just gave you the release, Dan already acknowledged, no TT bikes. So again, the ITU has 2 sets of rules. There are no hybrid rules, there are no rules for "elites". It's either DL or non-draft rules. They are saying they are going to run under "drafting legal" rule set. Each rule then pertains to that set of rules. IF it's DL then you have regular road bikes, UCI approved wheels, smaller wave starts, saddle position restrictions, etc. (much more strict than non-draft).

The only issue is going to be the wave starts and how they'll handle that. If they do a rolling start, then essentially it's like it is now, just that it's free to draft but you all are on road bikes. That's the only question now at this point.

So go get a road bike right now if you want to qualify for 2016 world's sprint. It's that simple. Don't want to, then don't, and your only eligible for Olympic worlds. Not really sure what else needs to be explained.
ETA: That's the biggest detail that you need to worry about really, getting a road bike. You must use a traditional framed bike with no extended TT bars. The "cute" stuff we are discussing is fodder. So if you are serious about wanting to do DL and seeing you've already done 3, then get a road bike. If you don't want to get a road bike then non of the other details will matter.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Why do you ignore what the ITU sent Dan and he posted on the other thread? I know the ITU the second time is saying something different, which implies the third time the ITU talks it might be different again.

Show me anywhere the ITU has released a statement saying it is going to using the "drafting legal" rule set, and what this is. Please, give me this link and you win.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

   
It's simple.

Want to do 2016 world's get a road bike. Don't want to get a road bike then the rules wont apply to you, and you not need worry anymore. That's where you need to make your important decision at.


I have repeatedly said, go read the rule book for yourself if you want to know the rules and equipment options for DL. Dan confirmed no TT bikes (which I knew/understood was the case the entire time).

ETA: And with that Dave, I'm not responding to you anymore. Your really just trying to make assumptions just to make assumptions and argue over fodder. Nothing else really to discuss. If you want to "assume" things will change in ITU's rules, then live always questions "well what if". It's pretty simple what they have done. They are going to run the AG race now under most of the DL rules. I wonder aloud how they will do the waves, and that's about it. But road bikes, wheels, are going to be heavily regulated, you can count on that. But because it's not in "print", I understand you'll probably question that too. Good day

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

I'm not coming from this from your point of view. You're point of view is from elite level racing, correct? Aren't you a coach who brings clients to EDR events? I'm not. I'm not a coach. I'm not an elite. Far from it. There are currently a handful of EDR events that are DL, correct? Why do we need more of those?

Why not allow typical age group athletes the chance to race a DL race? I think it can be done without having multiple laps, etc. If it's a single lap race, then you should be allowed to draft anyone you want. There will be no fast groups coming through that you are "lucky" enough to catch on to because they will be up the road. If it is an AG that started behind you, then shame on you for not swimming fast enough.

If it isn't made to mimic an ITU race, then I think it can be a lot simpler than people are letting on. Granted, there won't be that many locations that will allow for this format. This is probably a good thing.

Just my opinion though. I'm not as involved as most.

I agree with you. There's only a small number of triathletes who want to try something different. And this will be different. It will be interesting to see how it goes.

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''Sweeney - you can both crush your AG *and* cruise in dead last!! 😂 '' Murphy's Law

Yep, you never seem to be willing to give facts to justify your statements. You ignore my questions on what Dan posted from the ITU.

Oh well, we shall see.

The first time ITU did NOT say no TT bikes. The second they said no TT bikes. Why the change of answer? Could it change again? Have we seen any details released "officially" by the ITU on their site to support any more
details than their first release of information? Until then, all questions seem fair.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Yep, the way I see it could happen also, but until the ITU releases more official info on their website, we all are guessing.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep