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Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules
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lots more to write about this but my first shot is up on the home page.

we oughta get in front of this and start deciding on the rules. for example:

1. can you draft off somebody not in your "race"?
2. should you be able to have any clip ons at all?
3. how deep should wheels be allowed to be?
4. are you obliged to retire if you're lapped?
5. should RDs be only allowed to have so many laps per race?
6. should there be any prerequisites to entering?
7. can you ride an MTB bike?
8. should we shit-can 1.3.073 entirely for draft legal?

plus other stuff i haven't yet considered, but that a number of you will.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Would we need to have some sort of qualification to ensure that people actually know HOW to draft? Assuming this catches on with the typical age-grouper that is.
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [noofus] [ In reply to ]
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good question. i'm thinking not. unless you want to get into some more hoity toity class, such as you want to be an elite, or some kind of elite junior, or pre-elite, or some such thing.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
lots more to write about this but my first shot is up on the home page.

we oughta get in front of this and start deciding on the rules. for example:

1. can you draft off somebody not in your "race"?
2. should you be able to have any clip ons at all?
3. how deep should wheels be allowed to be?
4. are you obliged to retire if you're lapped?
5. should RDs be only allowed to have so many laps per race?
6. should there be any prerequisites to entering?
7. can you ride an MTB bike?
8. should we shit-can 1.3.073 entirely for draft legal?

plus other stuff i haven't yet considered, but that a number of you will.

1. no
2. no, you don't want someone drafting on the aerobars and you don't want to have to enforce the rule
3. what ever you want
4. yes
5. yes, 5 laps for Olympic distance
6. no
7. no, road bikes only
8. what is 1.3.073?

---------------------------
''Sweeney - you can both crush your AG *and* cruise in dead last!! đŸ˜‚ '' Murphy's Law
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Sweeney] [ In reply to ]
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"what is 1.3.073?"

saddle nose 5cm behind the BB. except for morphological exceptions given one at a time. which is not going to happen in triathlon, that is, we're not going to train up commissaires in triathlon to grant MEs. so, everybody gets to race his bike. except, what if i get second, and you win, and i file a protest against you? then i'll win the protest. so we need to not honor that stupid rule. the very fact that there are no aero bars precludes someone from moving too far forward on a road bike. if we also get rid of shorty clip ons for DL racing in the AGs. which we probably also ought to do.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Sweeney] [ In reply to ]
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btw, you said "no" to this:

1. can you draft off somebody not in your "race"?

this is the way it is in bike racing. but this is going to be a tough in tri, because everybody starts at once in bike racing, that is, all discrete races start at once. but in tri the swim first spreads out and intermingles the age groups and sexes. so it's much harder to identify each discrete pack, as is the case in cycling. this is going to be tough to enforce.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Sweeney] [ In reply to ]
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Couple thoughts,


Start them off male/female like the elite amateur waves. Have them compete by gender, no age breakdowns. That way, no worry about who you're drafting off of other than gender. You could always parse it out by AG for awards post race. Unless the bike course is more than three loops, you shouldn't run into too much trouble with lapping? Make wearing a bib on the bike mandatory toward the back and color code them so those in the non-draft race cannot latch onto a group on the second/third lap without sticking out to marshals.

-I should mention that this may only work if you have 20-25 people looking to compete in this format at each race. That way you can have a draft legal and non-draft legal race going on at the same time-

Wouldn't you need to mandate a closed road course if you had a draft event? Many of the races I do only partially closed their courses with volunteers/police at intersections.

Yes, I think you'll need to limit it to road bikes only, which means some kind of separate racking area in transition for supervision purposes.
Last edited by: ziggie204: Jul 21, 14 14:40
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
btw, you said "no" to this:

1. can you draft off somebody not in your "race"?

this is the way it is in bike racing. but this is going to be a tough in tri, because everybody starts at once in bike racing, that is, all discrete races start at once. but in tri the swim first spreads out and intermingles the age groups and sexes. so it's much harder to identify each discrete pack, as is the case in cycling. this is going to be tough to enforce.

I honestly don't understand why people have an issue with this. Ride whatever wheel you want. Bridge whatever gap you can. What am I missing?

As for bike rules, if I were dictator of this series, I'd use UCI road rules where possible. That would certainly be my guide for wheel depth, so 60mm as I understand (someone said Flos wouldn't work though?). And I'd just do away with clip-ons as well. Bikes look better as real tri bikes or real road bikes.

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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My god, would anyone really show up to a draft legal tri and draft with 50-60 AGers with no idea of skill or qualifications? Will there at least be a cat system where people have to in essence prove up their skills before jumping in with the big boys?
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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In road bike racing, one is started off in a lower category until he/she demonstrates:

1) Strong ability and high finishes to earn upgrade points for moving up categories; or
2) Enough mass-race starts to show competency and at least move out of the lowest category.

Will there be a system like this for draft-legal racing?

When I moved states and had no USAC license, I started in the lowest category and worked my arse off to move up...for safety. If I'm going to show up for a draft-legal triathlon, I want assurance that the other racers with me are competent pack riders--as I'm sure they will want the same from me.
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [noofus] [ In reply to ]
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noofus wrote:
Would we need to have some sort of qualification to ensure that people actually know HOW to draft? Assuming this catches on with the typical age-grouper that is.

Then should we have this same requirement you know how to swim, and swim in open water?

..

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
noofus wrote:
Would we need to have some sort of qualification to ensure that people actually know HOW to draft? Assuming this catches on with the typical age-grouper that is.


Then should we have this same requirement you know how to swim, and swim in open water?

..

One (the?) major difference is OW experience (generally) only affects the swimmer.

Drafting experience potentially takes out the entire peloton.
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting when you first posted what the ITU said, there was no change for bike rules. Now they way there is.
And the USAT has not position yet.

So, yep, lots more questions, very few answers.

I am not surprised how few have voted outright no DL race. Lots have been asking for this for a long time on ST, but a few vocal ones just shout them down. Well, I guess
DL is here now, we just need to understand what it all means.

I sure did not want to have to buy a road bike. :o(

I wonder how this would impact USAT rankings? Nationals qualification? TeamUSA stuff.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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1. This is why multi loop with multiple waves is a bad idea. Just creates too many unfair scenarios. BUT how if you say you cant draft, how to do regulate it? Is it 5 foot draft box you cant enter?

2. Shorty bars to the brake levers is current standard, stick with that. "Aerobars" are pretty pointless in DL racing, you don't want to be tucked on your p5 with 30 other people riding wheels.

3. 90mm deep enough?

4. AG should not have lap out rule. They also shouldn't do races where over 50% of the field can get lapped out. Bike loops need to be 10k per lap. That's roughly ~15 mins of racing, if you suck that bad, not sure what to tell you other than DL isn't for you if you want to "compete".

5. For AG race, it needs to be a 2 lap max bike course. 4-6 bike course loops creates too many issues if your going to have 600 people on the course at one time.

6. I don't think you have to "pass" anything, but have some respect for your fellow athlete. Of course that means you have to make them do stuff or else they'll say "well it's my right to race if I want to".

7. Is it wrong to just require traditional geometry and handlebars and that's it? Do we want the people with hybrids to do DL racing? Is that what we want to happen with DL? Is the goal to open it up to everyone and anyone, or can we agree some standards of equipment are required?

------------------
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http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
btw, you said "no" to this:

1. can you draft off somebody not in your "race"?

this is the way it is in bike racing. but this is going to be a tough in tri, because everybody starts at once in bike racing, that is, all discrete races start at once. but in tri the swim first spreads out and intermingles the age groups and sexes. so it's much harder to identify each discrete pack, as is the case in cycling. this is going to be tough to enforce.

We have no idea the answers to these questions, and we will not decide. I just do not see them making things more complicated. You talked about other NF's already doing DL races. So, what have their rules been?
And answers to your questions they are doing?

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Toby] [ In reply to ]
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I honestly don't understand why people have an issue with this. Ride whatever wheel you want. Bridge whatever gap you can. What am I missing?

--------------

Competitive fairness. Let's say it's a 3 lap bike course, and the 40-49 AG is coming out of the swim and the U30 guys are already on the bike. U30 guys come through lap 1 and start of lap 2 just as the lead swimmer of 40 AG guy gets on bike. He jumps on the wheel of the U30 guys, and uses that advantage while 2nd place guy in 40AG is stuck doing the work on his own (he couldn't get on a group).

I've seen this happen at a DL race this spring, and it really causes competitive issues. Now if you don't really care, and it's truly a "free for all", you wont care, you'll tell the 2nd place 40AG to suck it up, he should have swam faster or been more lucky.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [AKCrafty] [ In reply to ]
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"In road bike racing, one is started off in a lower category until he/she demonstrates:"

in another galaxy, far far away, i was a lowly CAT 3 cyclist. nevertheless, a CAT 3. but USA Cycling has long forgotten that now and when i show up at a race i buy a 1-day license and i can race 55-59 or whatever age category that fits my age. so, in this sense, i don't see that it's different in tri than it now is in cycling.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
I honestly don't understand why people have an issue with this. Ride whatever wheel you want. Bridge whatever gap you can. What am I missing?

--------------

Competitive fairness. Let's say it's a 3 lap bike course, and the 40-49 AG is coming out of the swim and the U30 guys are already on the bike. U30 guys come through lap 1 and start of lap 2 just as the lead swimmer of 40 AG guy gets on bike. He jumps on the wheel of the U30 guys, and uses that advantage while 2nd place guy in 40AG is stuck doing the work on his own (he couldn't get on a group).

I've seen this happen at a DL race this spring, and it really causes competitive issues. Now if you don't really care, and it's truly a "free for all", you wont care, you'll tell the 2nd place 40AG to suck it up, he should have swam faster or been more lucky.

Yep, the second place guy needs to learn how to swim faster.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Or get lucky. If you think that's a fair setup, I'll just simply disagree.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Good Lord, I'm glad I'm pretty much done with competitive tri... I see so many close calls in non-DL tri (usually with passes, and lapping really slow riders), I just can't imagine a bunch of people whose closest brush with pack riding is watching the Tour on TV getting mixed up in a tri. Aero bars? No thanks. I've seen enough carnage on training rides to last the rest of my life.

A cat system is a good idea. No clue how it would be administrated, especially when "results" have to include swim and run.

As a RD, I can't imagine the headache of putting on multiple starts. There's a junior tri in Monroe (nationals qualifier), but they only do 4 starts, and it's basically a super-sprint for the younger set. Need to have closed roads... Even a rolling closure wouldn't work.

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [brider] [ In reply to ]
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I finally have seen the light from Dan. The only way AG DL works is a 1 lap bike course, assuming we want 500 to show up at the race and it not take 14 hours to run 10 different races. Or shall I say, the only way it keeps it fair/less headaches. But then your mom and dad and gma miss seeing you 5 times on the bike, and that's really become an exciting part of DL racing.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
btw, you said "no" to this:

1. can you draft off somebody not in your "race"?

this is the way it is in bike racing. but this is going to be a tough in tri, because everybody starts at once in bike racing, that is, all discrete races start at once. but in tri the swim first spreads out and intermingles the age groups and sexes. so it's much harder to identify each discrete pack, as is the case in cycling. this is going to be tough to enforce.
[/quot

I thought you meant someone not it ''the'' race, like someone who is there to pace you. If ''you race'' is you wave or age group, I'd say draft whoever you want. If the second place guy in AG40-45 doesn't catch the passing wave, I say tell him to swim faster. You have to make the rules enforceable.

There is an Olympic distance race, non-drafting, in Connecticut with 5, 5 mile out and backs with 180 degree turns at each end. It's really cool to see the race unfolding around you. The run is two out and backs.

---------------------------
''Sweeney - you can both crush your AG *and* cruise in dead last!! đŸ˜‚ '' Murphy's Law
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
Or get lucky. If you think that's a fair setup, I'll just simply disagree.

We can find many "unfair" things in our races today. I just race with what is given and am happy to just be there.
If one does not like a race setup, just do not do it.
.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
"In road bike racing, one is started off in a lower category until he/she demonstrates:"

in another galaxy, far far away, i was a lowly CAT 3 cyclist. nevertheless, a CAT 3. but USA Cycling has long forgotten that now and when i show up at a race i buy a 1-day license and i can race 55-59 or whatever age category that fits my age. so, in this sense, i don't see that it's different in tri than it now is in cycling.

This may still be true at amateur national/regional championships (my second 'cross race EVER was at the National Championships for 35-39!) although I think that there's a minimum category requirement to be able to race, but I just raced a USAC stage race in the Cat 3 category and like the peace of mind it gives me that I can trust cyclists around me.

Bottom line for me if I were to race an AG draft-legal tri is to take some of the bike hours and move them over to swim hours in training-get to the pointy end of the race and stay away from trouble.
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Sweeney] [ In reply to ]
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If ''you race'' is you wave or age group, I'd say draft whoever you want. If the second place guy in AG40-45 doesn't catch the passing wave, I say tell him to swim faster.

________
I have to laugh that the 2nd best guy in an AG is told to "swim faster" as to the justification to why the guy who beats him by 6s and was able to by sheer luck of time jump on another waves wheels and he didn't. The stupidity in that logic makes no sense to me. ETA: I feel like we are dumbing down DL racing just to get the masses involved?

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: BDoughtie: Jul 21, 14 15:10
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
I finally have seen the light from Dan. The only way AG DL works is a 1 lap bike course, assuming we want 500 to show up at the race and it not take 14 hours to run 10 different races. Or shall I say, the only way it keeps it fair/less headaches. But then your mom and dad and gma miss seeing you 5 times on the bike, and that's really become an exciting part of DL racing.

I could care less about multiple laps. Make it a single lap. I just see this getting rid of the drafting fights ST gets in. And this now will make folks having to learn how to swim, or the train maybe gone.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]
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My god, would anyone really show up to a draft legal tri and draft with 50-60 AGers with no idea of skill or qualifications?

Yeah, that would be me. I entered the first ever draft legal age group race over in Clermont several years ago. There was a separate race for men and women (75 field limit) and I naively thought there would be other over-50 men that I could work with. So there I was lining up with over 90% of the field between about 18-23 yrs old checking out the format and preparing for the collegiate national champs. They called your name one by one and you selected your starting position on a blue or red square...75 across. Officials raised their flags to indicate whether a fair start was ready before the actual gun. Then holy crap, the kids shot off the mat like out of a cannon! I swam for all I was worth and I think I beat all of 2 people out of the water. No draft train for me as the young men were all long gone. I had to bust my solo ass just to keep from getting lapped on the 3 loop bike course.

Now back to the other point. Although there have only been a few of these races, I would guess the rules are already in place...at least they are at Clermont. You can have clip ons as long as they don't extend beyond the hoods of your handlebars. I rode 404s on my road bike...totally acceptable. Bikes and uniforms were inspected in advance per ITU rules. Guys who had two piece outfits that exposed any midsection had officials covering the offensive skin with duct tape. So wear an ITU one piece with zipper in the back. The bike course shot right through the center of transition on each loop so the elimination rule for getting passed was critical else someone might have gotten clocked while in T2.

Anyway, I think it is a great concept as long as the field isn't too large. I would try it again if there were more old guys out there.

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
BDoughtie wrote:
I finally have seen the light from Dan. The only way AG DL works is a 1 lap bike course, assuming we want 500 to show up at the race and it not take 14 hours to run 10 different races. Or shall I say, the only way it keeps it fair/less headaches. But then your mom and dad and gma miss seeing you 5 times on the bike, and that's really become an exciting part of DL racing.


I could care less about multiple laps. Make it a single lap. I just see this getting rid of the drafting fights ST gets in. And this now will make folks having to learn how to swim, or the train maybe gone.

.

It's gonna have to be multiple laps because draft legal requires a closed course (and if your person directing traffic screws up, I can promise you from experience, you will get quite the tongue lashing from a USAT ref). We have a hard enough time closing the roads around Fiesta Island for long enough to hold the AG sprint DL race I help RD in February (i.e., hard time in a super triathlon-friendly city in the off-season).

The big issue is my mind is the ITU rule capping wave size at 75. Stay tuned for how to get around that since we had 66 in the men's wave this year. We almost certainly will hit 75 in 2015.

Oh yeah, if you want experience for Worlds 2016, come race Tritonman.

tweets.
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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what rules does the junior circuit use? are they any different than normal ITU rules? seems like that would be where to start. a lot of those kids are racing draft legal before non-draft!
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
If ''you race'' is you wave or age group, I'd say draft whoever you want. If the second place guy in AG40-45 doesn't catch the passing wave, I say tell him to swim faster.

________
I have to laugh that the 2nd best guy in an AG is told to "swim faster" as to the justification to why the guy who beats him by 6s and was able to by sheer luck of time jump on another waves wheels and he didn't. The stupidity in that logic makes no sense to me. ETA: I feel like we are dumbing down DL racing just to get the masses involved?

You won't be able to enforce who you can and who you can't draft. In reality, the chances of one guy coming out of T1 just in time to catch a fast draft and the next guy riding the race on his own are pretty slim. If it's going to be draft legal, it should be open drafting. Otherwise you have a similar but different mess than the one we have with non-drafting races where half the race is drafting. If you want to legislate who can draft off of who, how will you enforce it?

---------------------------
''Sweeney - you can both crush your AG *and* cruise in dead last!! đŸ˜‚ '' Murphy's Law
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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HuffNPuff wrote:
Although there have only been a few of these races, I would guess the rules are already in place...

Yeah, this. There's also already a USAT National Championship with a sprint DL race, so yeah. Rules are more or less in place. I'm not 100% positive, but I don't think our officials have ever checked the saddle rule. For the rest of my answers to Dan's questions, see http://ucsdtriathlon.org/tritonman/draft-legal/.

tweets.
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Okay, I'll answer the questions directly:
Slowman wrote:
1. can you draft off somebody not in your "race"?
No.

Quote:
2. should you be able to have any clip ons at all?
No.

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3. how deep should wheels be allowed to be?
No idea. Disks if you want (not in front) for all I care.

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4. are you obliged to retire if you're lapped?
Yes. In fact there should be a cut-off at the swim of first+x%. Solution is a one-lap bike course.

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5. should RDs be only allowed to have so many laps per race?
Logic should dictate this, but since I've seen so many poorly-thought-out courses, seems some regulation is needed. 2 laps?

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6. should there be any prerequisites to entering?
Again, logic dictates that this should be so, but I've also seen plenty of bone-headed moves by so-called experienced bike racers, would it really help? Heck, there are crashes in the pro ranks.

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7. can you ride an MTB bike?
I don't see why not. I don't see anyone on a MTB as really competing anyway.

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8. should we shit-can 1.3.073 entirely for draft legal?
Go with the UCI regs.

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [siegfried08] [ In reply to ]
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"It's gonna have to be multiple laps because draft legal requires a closed course"

why do you think this?


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [odin99] [ In reply to ]
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Every junior race in the US and i'm pretty sure most of the world follow the ITU draft legal rulebook.

Which again, I'm not sure why we don't start there and then expand. This idea of just throwing out the rulebook and saying all 800 athletes can just draft with your p5, plasmas, seems to be missing an key safety issue. I don't even think that's allowed in cycling events, yet it's going to become the standard for AG (who have no standard to follow to sign up) DL triathlons?

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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the ITU clarified this today, no TT bikes in AG DL. but they didn't know without checking with the technical committee, which i thought was kind of interesting. still, at least we're not letting TT bikes go draft legal.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Just so many questions, and so few answers.

Now if USAT decides they do not want to field a Sprint DL TeamUSA for 2016, let alone a sprint DL nationals for 2015, then we really have no changes in the US.

So, until you get more info from Barry, we all may be wasting a lot of energy.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
"It's gonna have to be multiple laps because draft legal requires a closed course"

why do you think this?

Because I got a 10 minute speech from J (our head ref in 2013) about how incredibly unsafe having cars + DL race on the same road is.

I could see you getting by with a dedicated lane of a multi-lane road. But I do think you need at least a lane entirely closed. As an RD, I would not feel comfortable running a DL race on an open course. Everyone has had the experience needing to slow down because of an asshole driver on a race course (in fact, I have had this experience in probably >50% of the races I have entered). In draft-free racing, maybe you need to swerve and it's a few seconds off your time. Not a huge deal. In draft legal racing, that, at best, could spit a rider off the pack (and for all intents and purposes ending his day) or, at worse, someone needs to swerve and you have a pile up on your hands. I'm sure you can argue past all this, but I think (pack racing) + (average higher speeds) + (nerves) + (cars) is a bad equation to be getting into here.

tweets.
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [siegfried08] [ In reply to ]
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A number of races I do with one RD in Northern california basically does this on all his bike courses. They cone off a complete lane of a multi lane road. Other parts they shut the cars down completely.
It is a one lap course.

So unless one says what a "closed course" means, there are many ways to make a safe DL course with a single lap and no issues with cars.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [siegfried08] [ In reply to ]
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"because I got a 10 minute speech from J (our head ref in 2013) about how incredibly unsafe having cars + DL race on the same road is."

if i give you an 11 minute speech saying that it depends on the roads and the race, will you change your mind?

let me ask you this. our local road race is pretty large, as road races go. 16.6 mile loop. the road is open to cars. the road is quite rural. all the intersections are manned by volunteer CHP. is this race incredibly unsafe?


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
I honestly don't understand why people have an issue with this. Ride whatever wheel you want. Bridge whatever gap you can. What am I missing?

--------------

Competitive fairness. Let's say it's a 3 lap bike course, and the 40-49 AG is coming out of the swim and the U30 guys are already on the bike. U30 guys come through lap 1 and start of lap 2 just as the lead swimmer of 40 AG guy gets on bike. He jumps on the wheel of the U30 guys, and uses that advantage while 2nd place guy in 40AG is stuck doing the work on his own (he couldn't get on a group).

I've seen this happen at a DL race this spring, and it really causes competitive issues. Now if you don't really care, and it's truly a "free for all", you wont care, you'll tell the 2nd place 40AG to suck it up, he should have swam faster or been more lucky.

Right, that I understand. My feeling, though, is "them's the breaks". I mean, in the swim, I've caught onto the toes of a girl coming up from behind me and used her draft. I've also drafted off a 62-year-old found in a time trial start. It all doesn't bother me. The draft leaders are where they are, and the race progresses as it will.

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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I was actually referring to the number of folks in a wave (and 50-60 is too low) not ages


I think your 75 field limit and separate M/F races though is at least workable. That I can get behind. In my head I've got fields of 600-1000 people signing up for races, going off in 6-12 waves.....

Here in L.A. the RD for the LA Tri has changed to an "ITU style" course, 5 loops for Oly, 2 for sprint, 1500 people at some point all out on the same small residential street course, 2 180 turns and 5 90 degree or greater turns per lap. The swim start is going to be in a small wave time trial format. And he wants an ITU race there like Chicago with the Brownlees and Gomez etc. I plan to be there to watch the carnage
Last edited by: ChrisM: Jul 21, 14 15:50
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]
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bear in mind that for this race it is NOT draft legal. i kind of think it would be better if it was.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
bear in mind that for this race it is NOT draft legal. i kind of think it would be better if it was.


True.

But Caress has said he wants to bring Chicago style racing to LA. Now, I can't see it for regular AGers. But I also can't see pros wanting to race this course

I'm curious about the better comment though. With regular AG waves? 5 loops? 1500 people? 180 turns at the bottom of big descents? Have you been to a tri lately??? /pink to the last one....
Last edited by: ChrisM: Jul 21, 14 16:05
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Sweeney] [ In reply to ]
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The more likely scenario is the people who were slower swimmers get caught by faster riders and latch on. That erases the benefit of the faster swimmers when they all group together. It is completely unfair to draft off other categories. That said, it would be a nightmare to police.
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
Just so many questions, and so few answers.

Now if USAT decides they do not want to field a Sprint DL TeamUSA for 2016, let alone a sprint DL nationals for 2015, then we really have no changes in the US.


You mean no changes other than not being able to race at sprint worlds if you are from the USA.
Last edited by: Jctriguy: Jul 21, 14 16:15
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Dan,
what is classification of 'sprint' distance? 750/20/5? or 1/30/8?
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]
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i'm not saying that this is a course i admire. i'm saying that if you're stuck with this course, and if all those bikes are going to be on this course at the same time, DL with a lot of bikes with no aerobars seems maybe the lesser of possible evils.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [shep] [ In reply to ]
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"what is classification of 'sprint' distance? 750/20/5? or 1/30/8?"

i think it's the former.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
i'm not saying that this is a course i admire. i'm saying that if you're stuck with this course, and if all those bikes are going to be on this course at the same time, DL with a lot of bikes with no aerobars seems maybe the lesser of possible evils.

I think on that course, on that day, with that many people, it's gonna be a draft race, legal or not :)

Do you think though that the average adult onset triathlete age grouper has the group bike handling skills to not present a danger to themselves and others? Even without aerobars. I have my doubts.
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
lots more to write about this but my first shot is up on the home page.

we oughta get in front of this and start deciding on the rules. for example:

1. can you draft off somebody not in your "race"? NO..It is ESSENTIAL that this is enforced.
2. should you be able to have any clip ons at all? NO! Racing draft-legal a bit myself I find that you don't need them. Only time I use them is if I am solo. Even if I am sitting on the front I wouldn't use the bars as it means my reaction time to an attack would be a little slower. In terms of AGs it would be dangerous because all it takes is one idiot sitting on the bars in the bunch...could end badly.
3. how deep should wheels be allowed to be? sub 60mm
4. are you obliged to retire if you're lapped? Yes!
5. should RDs be only allowed to have so many laps per race? No...1 max 2
6. should there be any prerequisites to entering? Endorsement from a triathlon coach, that what is required in AUS
7. can you ride an MTB bike? Hell no
8. should we shit-can 1.3.073 entirely for draft legal?

plus other stuff i haven't yet considered, but that a number of you will.


__________________________________________________
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
lots more to write about this but my first shot is up on the home page.

we oughta get in front of this and start deciding on the rules. for example:

1. can you draft off somebody not in your "race"?
2. should you be able to have any clip ons at all?
3. how deep should wheels be allowed to be?
4. are you obliged to retire if you're lapped?
5. should RDs be only allowed to have so many laps per race?
6. should there be any prerequisites to entering?
7. can you ride an MTB bike?
8. should we shit-can 1.3.073 entirely for draft legal?

plus other stuff i haven't yet considered, but that a number of you will.

1. Yes. It happens in tri today, why change? Plus the draft won't last long if the AG's are mismatched.
2. Sure. Why not?
3. Whatev.
4. Yes. For safety. No need to have lapped riders cruising around below speed. F1, Nascar, and any other racing league pulls them. Tri should be no different.
5. Their call. It's their race.
6. No. Anyone not qualified will fall out quickly. And the strategy of the experienced folk *should* teach them to be alert on lap 1, after which it won't be an issue.
7. Again, their call. Would vote for no, only because it violates #4 - people going fast (presumably) on the same track as people going less fast.
8. Yes. Shitcan 1.3.073 entirely. Morphology, and desire to accommodate a lot of different geometries, dictates accommodation. Not sure what the UCI fear is, short of outlawing recumbents. Why not let people ride, for Chrissakes?

All for now.



------------------

- I do all my own stunts
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [cannastar] [ In reply to ]
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I would think if you had multiple "classes" and were concerned about the draft being unfair, you would have to have single lap courses only.

Just as the 45yo first place guy could take off if he catches the 30yo train on its second loop, just as easily, the 1st place guy could be halfway on his first lap having missed the train and the 2nd place guy could catch that train and make up that deficit in no time at all. Either way doesn't seem "fair".

As to aerobars, I still see their use in the event you are unable to hook up with people to draft with. If you are caught out on your own, then you can use them. If you are currently within the "no-drafting" distance, then that is also the "no-aerobar" distance. If a marshal sees you on the aerobars within XX feet/meters of a rider ahead, you get pulled out for a 5 second stopped penalty. If people were threatened with losing their pack by coming to a full stop for 5 seconds, that should be incentive enough to not do it.
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [LOW2000] [ In reply to ]
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I think the idea re aerobars is overly complicated and too hard to enforce. It's a good idea in theory. Better and simpler to have a blanket rule saying you can't use them. Also takes out the problem of people having ones that extend past the hoods. That rule is frequently flouted in races.

__________________________________________________
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Jctriguy] [ In reply to ]
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Jctriguy wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Just so many questions, and so few answers.

Now if USAT decides they do not want to field a Sprint DL TeamUSA for 2016, let alone a sprint DL nationals for 2015, then we really have no changes in the US.


You mean no changes other than not being able to race at sprint worlds if you are from the USA.

I am just looking at options. USAT can field or not field teams at Worlds. They did not do a team from sprint worlds when it first started.

So until USAT gives us the detail response to the ITU change, we cannot say with 100% certainty that USAT will put things in place to end up with a Sprint DL Teamusa Team at worlds in 2016.
I assume they will but until we the details on how it would work, anything is possible.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]
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"Do you think though that the average adult onset triathlete age grouper has the group bike handling skills to not present a danger to themselves and others? Even without aerobars. I have my doubts."

the first ever swim bike run tri i did was a race that, coincidentally, is owned by the same fellow who owns the torrance race you and i've been talking about. it was "the human race," 1980, started with the bike, then the run, then the swim. can you imagine, nowadays, ending with the swim, in open water? fairly big race, i don't know, several hundred people. nobody died. i do think there was a crash on the bike, i heard something behind me, but i was prescient enough to be at the front of the pack. monty was in that race. anyway, no big whoop, nobody thought, oh shit, a lot of runners in a bike race.

i've been in 3 multisport races that ended with the bike. from memory, the old natl championship duathlon in ontario ended with the bike. sprints for the finish. i've been in a number of those in multisport races. everybody lived.

to me, the most dangerous situations i've ever seen have been no-draft races on courses open to cars, when those races are really big, like, 3000 people or more. which you can have in rural areas. i would argue that these kinds of fields are harder, or can be harder, for a motorist than bike races with that same density.

but i think this is the good kind of discussion to have. can we have no-draft racing where we still have kinda like drafting rules. for example, if you're by yourself, or if you're 2-up, can you still ride to the right? i would like to think that no-draft does not mean anything goes. hence this thread.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
"because I got a 10 minute speech from J (our head ref in 2013) about how incredibly unsafe having cars + DL race on the same road is."

if i give you an 11 minute speech saying that it depends on the roads and the race, will you change your mind?

let me ask you this. our local road race is pretty large, as road races go. 16.6 mile loop. the road is open to cars. the road is quite rural. all the intersections are manned by volunteer CHP. is this race incredibly unsafe?

Actually, I think you could change my mind in 5 minutes and then I could pick your brain about something far more interesting for the last 6 minutes (I'm available all week). I'd guess the race is perfectly safe, but N=1. I could also probably find you a 16.6 mile loop race somewhere else open to cars on rural roads with intersections manned by volunteer CHP that is unsafe. The level of safety is going to be a function of the route, the staffing, the signage (pre-race and during the race), the local mindset (i.e. cycling-friendly), etc. In theory, this is one of the reasons USAT sanctioning exists, right? To ensure that your course is safe? Given the state of the sanctioning system as described in your article ("the sanctioning app deals more with what the RD has in place after a bad thing happens...than it does about keeping bad things from happening in the first place."), I would hope that whatever boxes that need to be checked for having a AG DL course sanctioned are overly-stringent rather than underly-stringent.

Perhaps obviously, USA Cycling road race protocol should be the starting point for thinking about how to handle AG DL courses, which leads me to what I think are the more interesting rules to discuss: the wave-cap at 75 and the minimum time between waves (for DL races, 1hr for intra-gender, 45min for inter-gender). A quick search tells me (and I obviously could be wrong after about 60 seconds of googling) USA Cycling caps a field at 100 for road races (or 75 if it includes Cat 5 guys or Cat 4 women; Rule 1H5), so there's a precedent that there probably shouldn't be more than 75 cyclists of questionable ability on the road at once. Maybe the rule becomes that you can have open roads if you only have 75 people on the road. But if you can only have 75 people on the road at a time, the economics of hosting the race start getting tight.

I should go swim.

tweets.
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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USAT will definitely be fielding teams at this event, you can count on that.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
USAT will definitely be fielding teams at this event, you can count on that.

I would assume this. I just want to see all the details in writing first with folks like you, Dan and others having all your questions answered.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I apologize for keep bringing this up but if we add a run BEFORE the bike then we will quickly, efficiently, and 100% fairly reduce drafting. And for the record I'm all for draft-legal races - the fewer rules the better IMO. I'd like to see a race format that looks like this: Draft legal ==> Swim 1.5K, Run 3K, Bike 40K, Run 8K.
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
lots more to write about this but my first shot is up on the home page.

we oughta get in front of this and start deciding on the rules. for example:

1. can you draft off somebody not in your "race"?
2. should you be able to have any clip ons at all?
3. how deep should wheels be allowed to be?
4. are you obliged to retire if you're lapped?
5. should RDs be only allowed to have so many laps per race?
6. should there be any prerequisites to entering?
7. can you ride an MTB bike?
8. should we shit-can 1.3.073 entirely for draft legal?

plus other stuff i haven't yet considered, but that a number of you will.

1. Yes, if you happen to have caught a group that is lapping you, they you won't have them for your last lap.
2. Keep the same rule
3. 60/90
4. Yes, If it's a mass start
5. Something that would take somewhere near 15 min to complete
6. Just a class
7. Sure, but you're probably going to get lapped
8. No but modify it to 5 cm in front of the BB

Have Transition parallel to the course but don't go through it each time.

jaretj
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [siegfried08] [ In reply to ]
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"The level of safety is going to be a function of the route, the staffing, the signage (pre-race and during the race), the local mindset (i.e. cycling-friendly), etc."

bingo.

"
USA Cycling caps a field at 100 for road races (or 75 if it includes Cat 5 guys or Cat 4 women; Rule 1H5), so there's a precedent"

wouldn't you say, tho, that a field in cycling is kind of like a wave in triathlon? if so, then fine, i'm with you. let's cap the wave, bearing in mind that the wave in a tri is already somewhat broken up by the swim, whereas that is not so in a cycling race so, theoretically, the wave limits could be higher in a tri.

the problem in a tri is this: in a cycling race you don't need a swim venue, so you can absolutely hand pick the course without the need for that venue. in tri, you can get rural, but you are still limited by the need to be near a swim venue. so that limits your ability to choose a very rural loop.

that's why i'm thinking about a modified draft legal ruleset, where you don't have a drafting zone, but you don't get to take over the whole road either.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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"3. 60/90"

the one thing that surprises me about all your responses is that you're really liberal on wheel depths. i would think deep wheels would be much more of a potential issue in draft-legal races. especially on descents. i wouldn't allow more than 40mm front or rear, and i think that's liberal. what's the UCI rule?


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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what's the UCI rule?

_______

HED 90's are legal, Enve 90's are legal, Zipp 808's are good.
ETA: The basic rule is that any wheel that has rim depth over 25mm (so training tire or less) is good to go. Anything greater than 25mm has to be on approved list. So for many on here who use Flo's, there 30mm + wheels aren't on UCI list and thus illegal wheels.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: BDoughtie: Jul 21, 14 17:35
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:

the one thing that surprises me about all your responses is that you're really liberal on wheel depths. i would think deep wheels would be much more of a potential issue in draft-legal races. especially on descents. i wouldn't allow more than 40mm front or rear, and i think that's liberal. what's the UCI rule?

ITU has a spoke type/number rule, not a depth rule. Other than I know that 80s/90s are ok.


Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [-BrandonMarshTX] [ In reply to ]
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Brandon, they have both a spoke and rim depth rule. Pretty much any standard training tire (shallow rimmed wheel) that comes on just about every bike is fine. Anything over 25mm rim depth has to be on the approved list. For ST folks, that means no Flo wheels, as of I think the latest update is July 4th, 2014 wheel list.

And yes they will get out a measuring tape and measure them, saw it happen 10 days ago.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I have never had an issue with a 60 front and 90 rear. I've gotten blown around a little with a 90 front on a long decent in France but I wouldn't expect that type of decent on a DL course.

I don't see a need for that deep of wheel in a DL race but people already have them for no-draft events. No need to make people buy new wheels for a fringe part of a fringe sport.

jaretj
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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OK. Mostly just pointing out that Hed3s aren't legal I don't think nor would discs be. And, don't they have to have 16+ spokes? Are 'Lightweight' wheels legal or the Mavics that have the carbon spokes? I've read this thread, but only just now am reading the front page.


Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [-BrandonMarshTX] [ In reply to ]
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Here is the rules: It's funny I have gotten a new litespeed aero road bike. They came with pretty cheesy Easton "aero" wheels. I mean not a bad wheel, but to say they are "aero" is a bit of a stretch. BUT because they are too deep by 5mm, they are illegal. I sorta had a laugh about that. It's one of the few Easton wheels that isn't UCI approved.

Zipp 60's aren't approved either.

Article 1.3.018 relates only to mass start competitions.


In this type of events, the riders generally use standard (traditional) wheels which are clearly defined in Article 1.3.018. These wheels are authorised de facto.
However, during mass start competitions, certain riders do use non-standard wheels (rims higher than 2.5 cm, fewer than 16 spokes, spoke thicknesses of over 2.4 mm). If any of these conditions is noted, the wheel is deemed to be a non-standard wheel and must have passed a rupture test in order for it to be authorised for use in competition.
The manufacturers inform the UCI of the names of wheels which have been successfully tested. The names of these wheels are shown in the list below. The wheels can therefore be clearly identified. If this is not the case then the wheel is not authorised for use.



http://www.uci.ch/...NjQxNjY&LangId=1

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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so, second question: what's the deepest wheel you've ever seen used in a major mass start bike race, by a continental or grand tour team member, and by whom?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I would assume probably a 404 type of wheel? But I also will admit I don't pay much attention to their wheel selection. Is that because they all ride stock low rims? Maybe?

I've been able to get a HED 6/9 set (2 of them actually), and I'm debating of sending 1 90 back in favor of a 60/60 Hed wheel (Hed 50's aren't UCI legal).
ETA: In ITU I see ~60's all the time. Jason Pedersen (ST member) rides the Enve 8.9 set (but a 80-90mm wheel is going to be the rare exception). Asked him last week what he thought of them, and he says he can corner and handle anything he's raced at with no issues.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: BDoughtie: Jul 21, 14 17:57
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Has USAT given you a date when they will give details on their plans?

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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"I've gotten blown around a little with a 90 front on a long decent in France but I wouldn't expect that type of decent on a DL course."

why? what is it about DL courses that presuppose no serious descent? remember, we're talking AGs here. this is the problem with at least a part of this discussion: too many of you guys are looking at AG DL through the prism of races and courses that only have several dozen athletes racing.

it's like a bunch of guys scratching their heads wondering how to get 1500 people all on a 400m oval at the same time. DL racing for AGers is not going to look anything like DL racing the way you guys have seen it. it's going to look like triathlon looked in 1986, except with somewhat tighter packs.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
"
it's like a bunch of guys scratching their heads wondering how to get 1500 people all on a 400m oval at the same time. DL racing for AGers is not going to look anything like DL racing the way you guys have seen it. it's going to look like triathlon looked in 1986, except with somewhat tighter packs.

Why could it not look like so many of the flat course races that so many come onto ST and bitch about drafting? I just see that these races could be 100% the same but ignore the drafting. Just seems so easy.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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"Has USAT given you a date when they will give details on their plans?"

to my knowledge they haven't even gotten the whole board together to discuss it. we all just found out about this on friday. they don't know if they're having 2 natl championship races or 3, nor if they'll have them all on the same weekend. nor how to get people ready for these nationals that will qualify people for 2016 worlds. the worlds venue has not been selected, to the USAT's nationals venue can't be selected, nor the date. they don't know any more than we do, really.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
"Has USAT given you a date when they will give details on their plans?"

to my knowledge they haven't even gotten the whole board together to discuss it. we all just found out about this on friday. they don't know if they're having 2 natl championship races or 3, nor if they'll have them all on the same weekend. nor how to get people ready for these nationals that will qualify people for 2016 worlds. the worlds venue has not been selected, to the USAT's nationals venue can't be selected, nor the date. they don't know any more than we do, really.

Makes sense. Guess will just need to let them catch up after they get through Nationals, and ITU worlds. Then hopefully some questions like places and dates can be announced.

Since I think USAT has had trouble finding a place on the west coast for 2015/16 nationals, this seems to throw in a huge monkey wrench since anyone who bid sure did not bid the races with this new DL
format.

Again, thanks for all you hard work getting us info.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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In a sprint race with 3 laps I don't think there can be any serious climbs, the race just isn't long enough.

jaretj
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
so, second question: what's the deepest wheel you've ever seen used in a major mass start bike race, by a continental or grand tour team member, and by whom?


Cavendish on 808's. Plenty more examples about. Most seem on 60mm deep or less, though.

Or maybe you should read your own website: http://www.slowtwitch.com/...e_new_808s_2118.html

The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock
Last edited by: Derf: Jul 21, 14 18:13
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
noofus wrote:
Would we need to have some sort of qualification to ensure that people actually know HOW to draft? Assuming this catches on with the typical age-grouper that is.


Then should we have this same requirement you know how to swim, and swim in open water?

..

No not at all. I am worried that someone incapable of pack riding takes out a group of people causing massive injuries. Someone incapable of open-water swimming is only endangering themselves. I don't care about that. I am worried about the guy who might come up behind me, take a draft, and accidentally run into me when he farts and takes me out.
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I would think USAT would use the U19 division at JE Nats to field that requirement atleast.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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"In a sprint race with 3 laps I don't think there can be any serious climbs, the race just isn't long enough."

i see your point. again, tho, i just don't see 3-lap sprint courses being the model for AG DL racing.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Derf] [ In reply to ]
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ah, well, yes. my own experience with wheels 80mm or deeper is that i'm pretty much good to go, except on windy descents. i suspect that's why fields are on 60mm or even, really, 40mm. spring classics in the benelux, not much in the way of high speed descents. i'd not ride even a 60mm wheel on a windy, 50mph descent, even on a road bike.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Dan you earlier posted this comment : that's why i'm thinking about a modified draft legal ruleset, where you don't have a drafting zone, but you don't get to take over the whole road either.


Expand on what you meant here?



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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
Dan you earlier posted this comment : that's why i'm thinking about a modified draft legal ruleset, where you don't have a drafting zone, but you don't get to take over the whole road either.


Expand on what you meant here?


I'm thinking that the number or races is going to be small, and they'll have to have closed courses. One of my gripes about the pro stagger rule is that we end up taking up one entire lane if there are more than about 4 athletes. I'm going to say that a lot of 'normal' age groupers aren't going to want to be too much closer together than 2 meters. I just feel like with the stagger rule, it ends up being unsafe on a lot of open courses and it's very tough for cars to pass if they need to do so.


Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
lots more to write about this but my first shot is up on the home page.

we oughta get in front of this and start deciding on the rules. for example:

1. can you draft off somebody not in your "race"?
2. should you be able to have any clip ons at all?
3. how deep should wheels be allowed to be?
4. are you obliged to retire if you're lapped?
5. should RDs be only allowed to have so many laps per race?
6. should there be any prerequisites to entering?
7. can you ride an MTB bike?
8. should we shit-can 1.3.073 entirely for draft legal?

plus other stuff i haven't yet considered, but that a number of you will.


1. No. For a sprint distance waves can go off every ~30 min most athletes should be off the bike course or on the last lap before the next wave gets onto the bike. Having an "elite"/fast amateur/prize giving wave/s gets rid of all the really fast athletes. Could also have a for fun/slow wave at the end with no lap out for those that want to participate but are not competitive. Should get rid of most cases where drafting another race is a problem anyway.

2. As per ITU

3. ITU, could be at RD's discretion, but messy, i.e. no discs at Kona. Would have to be well publicised at signup, athlete instructions etc.

4. Yes, except maybe last wave. Most dangerous when one group laps another

5. Maybe recommendations, every location is different. Could have a lake, with a closed off road around it but needs n+1 laps, otherwise perfect venue. (n is mandated max number of laps). Also the size of fields/waves is a factor.

Currently draft legal is much more exciting and spectator friendly, with courses having multiple laps and coming past the spectators multiple times. A big part of the race atmosphere can be watching all the other waves and how their tactics play out. Can make a big thing of the elite wave and spectators/athletes can watch the race unfold.

6. No, should have projected times to beat to prevent being lapped out. For those worried about people with no bike handling experience in a group either a shout of "keep your line" or the appropriate problem will teach them how to behave. If that doesn't work it shouldn't be too hard to drop someone who has no experience riding in a group.

7. Why not, I have raced draft legal on a cyclocross bike with disc brakes.

8. Is that the only rule that needs a rethink? There are a lot of wheels that triathletes own not on the UCI list. Also there are a lot of rules in regards to the uniform, should they all stay? I do think some of the rules should carry over to non-drafting like the clean transition area and everything going into a bucket. I think there needs to be much more consistency in rules between the non-drafting and the draft legal forms, ideally just the parts regarding the bike and position and the use of the road.

I am excited by this, I enjoy draft legal racing and want to race more of them.
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I'm generally opposed to draft legal racing, but if it is to be done in AG racing, then I would only allow non-aero bikes and perhaps shorty aerobars. AND, the courses should have serious hills.

_________________
Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I was going to say that the 40-60 mm range seems the sweetest for all-around road race wheels. Going up to 80mm or beyond does buy a little more drag benefit, but at a definite cost in ride-ability. It also screams break. :)

The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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I am mostly a road and cross cyclist and I have to say that in every tri I have done (about 12 mixed over a 15 yr time period) people have been drafting quite frequently to my annoyance but it was technically not allowed. Mostly sprints and Olympics.

So I can see why in some ways it changes the nature of who can compete effectively since many are weak time trailers but many AGers should be used to the idea of drafting I'd wager.

I do agree on pack skill development as a needed part of training regiments with an expansion of draft legal events.
J
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I think everyone is over thinking this. My guess is, for the most part, all this will do is eliminate drafting penalties.

In most fast group rides I do with the local bike club, which includes a lot of triathletes, very few of them attempt any more that a "wheel suck" type of draft. Very few can rotate, and when they try they usually run off the front or pull way too long, followed by getting spit out the back. I've never seen any of them actually cause a problem, and we ride some seriously fast miles in some pretty technical areas (traffic and turns wise).

That's not to say the wobbly person doesn't exist in a triathlon, just that no one will try to draft with them, and they wouldn't do what is required to allow it anyway.

This will be a non-issue.

"...the street finds its own uses for things"
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [AutomaticJack] [ In reply to ]
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AutomaticJack wrote:
I think everyone is over thinking this. My guess is, for the most part, all this will do is eliminate drafting penalties.

In most fast group rides I do with the local bike club, which includes a lot of triathletes, very few of them attempt any more that a "wheel suck" type of draft. Very few can rotate, and when they try they usually run off the front or pull way too long, followed by getting spit out the back. I've never seen any of them actually cause a problem, and we ride some seriously fast miles in some pretty technical areas (traffic and turns wise).

That's not to say the wobbly person doesn't exist in a triathlon, just that no one will try to draft with them, and they wouldn't do what is required to allow it anyway.

This will be a non-issue.

This is exactly what I have been thinking. Folks have been drafting for as long as this sport has existed. I just do not see this change any different than any race without officials on the bike course.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [AutomaticJack] [ In reply to ]
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Yes and the fact you can't race on TT bike. So "safety" wise they pretty much eliminated some big worries. All that is left is the wave starts and or decisions on length of bike loops.
ETA: Not that I think there will be a standard, just that I think the industry will accept some type of yes/no on the lap out rules with AG'ers. There is no standard for bike loops now, some courses are 2 laps, some 4, etc. But the lap out rule has been pretty much accepted. I've thought for AG racing you cant have the lap out rule especially if your doing all kinds of waves on the course at one time, there would be no way to officiate it. So it seems like the logical choice is going to be you swim, you bike, you run, the fastest to the line is the winner. How you get to the finish line is up to you and the course. You get lucky and come out and find a break from previous lap, you take it. You don't get that lucky break, it's just the breaks of racing. Of course a 1 lap bike course fixes this. But if races want the loops for the "show" that is DL racing, that's how I see it going down.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: BDoughtie: Jul 22, 14 5:31
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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.....and this is why this is a goofy format for Age Group....to many problems to overcome to do it right.....and if you allow the above its a goofy event where luck plays a huge part. dumb.

my predictions:

Draft legal triathlons will be miniscule in the USA. Few races with small fields...a blip.
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Two thoughts/questions I don't think I've seen raised here:

1) Right now in large (meaning more than 1 wave for each gender) non-DL races, the race for overall 1-2-3 often takes place between waves. That's certainly true at AG Nationals. While this isn't ideal (you can be racing closely with someone you never see), it seems like DL adds more unfairness to this scenario, because your race depends more on the people you come out of the swim with--your own wave. So for instance, a really fast 45-49 yr old might not have nearly as good a bike pack as the 25-29 yr olds, and that will impact the race more than if each had to bike alone. This could be changed by some more complicated system that had seeded waves, instead of AG waves, and maybe if the change only impacts a few races, those races can invest the effort to make that change.

2) This doesn't seem like a major concern for most ST folks, but I think more DL races would have a large impact on entry into the sport. Most sprint and Olympic races I do have a mix of super-competitive AGers and people just getting into the sport. I am in a club that does a lot of work to introduce people (esp. women, as it turns out) to triathlon, and very, very few of those folks (1 in the entire time I've been doing it) come from a bike racing background. Another way of saying this: the ST poll represents a segment of the triathlon-doing population, and I'm not sure how representative it is of the overall numbers. If maintaining or growing (or just not having a large decline in) the numbers of people doing triathlons is important to USAT, maybe this is something to consider.
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Steve-oH!] [ In reply to ]
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It doesn't need to be mainstream, just offer enough opportunities to get it more in front of people. It never will be huge, cutting out TT automatically cuts your athlete pool by probaly 40%. Just as I thought no TT bikes was never going to be allowed, I think closed courses will be mandatory for USAT sanctioning.

I don't think it's a bad thing if DL never becomes big. I'd like to keep it with higher standards of production and deal with low number of races. I hope there are 1 lap courses but I think you'll see DL following the multiple loop bike course.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Steve-oH!] [ In reply to ]
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I don't like this idea for Age Groupers, especially in the multi- wave format that is required to have all the athletes attending the races in the US. The fast people/swimmers are going to catch up to the slower people in the wave ahead of them and alter the results that would occur naturally in a ITT. Draft Legal works for the elite because they are all the same speed and there is no mixing of different abilities or age groups. DL works in smaller fields, but the races here in the US are so large, there is no way around not having multi-wave starts.

For example, the M20-24 are going to catch up to the M50-54 who started ahead of them and start sweeping the back of that pack forward. A poor swimmer in the 50-54 is going to be picked up by the pack first and the top swimmer in the M50-54 will be out front longer by himself.
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [MasskT] [ In reply to ]
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I'm having a hard time figuring out the appeal of the draft legal event to the MOP (i.e. me). But I have an open mind. For me (slow swimmer, reasonably fast biker, esp. at shorter distances), I rarely encounter anyone in Sprint and Oly races that is worth drafting off of, much less multiple people. You can argue I should swim faster, and you'd be right. But will that really change anything?

For example, I completed a duathlon a couple weeks ago, so I started the bike in much better position than I usually would in a tri. Still, on a 2 loop course, 13 miles/loop, I remember encountering 1 person worth working with out of a 102 person wave (if it were a DL race). So how does my race strategy change here? Work really hard to try and find a fast person? Back off a bit and hope that someone passes me and I can latch on? Race at my desired pace and hope the competition doesn't catch the draft train? This seems like too much luck to me--not very appealing.

Maybe I'm not the right target person for this or I'm missing something. It seems like swim/run specialists can take advantage of DL as they can latch onto passing groups. It also works if you know which of your competitors you can bike with and you try and stick with them during the swim.

But in a normal AG start, with a bunch strangers with a wide spread of ability in the different disciplines, I don't see how you make those decisions.

Now, if I were racing a handful of my friends in a self-supported event, I think we'd have a lot of fun racing this way. I know what their respective strengths are and I'd basically try and drop the runners during the swim and the bike. Knowing that, maybe some sort of categorization/race series, where competitor lists/bib numbers are published (with prior race splits) before the race, might work ("I need to stay with 122 and 127 during the swim, it seems like they bike at my pace"). The categorization keeps people with similar paces together to keep it interesting for all of the competitors. Keep the races short so they don't require big taper and recovery periods. Still, even with this, I worry that the appeal is relatively narrow.
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Lastcall] [ In reply to ]
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That's the gist with DL racing, IF your doing multi-bike loops. IF your doing loops on the bike, then you have to have lap out rules, or you just run into chaos. But then you piss off guys like you because there is no point to entering DL races.


In regards to DL tactics, I'd be willing to say you could find a few more guys to work with in that 102 people than you think. But your race strategy being that your a poor swimmer is that you'd be looking at having to essentially ride the bike as if it's a iTT and just try and pick up guys. If you could then get a few to latch on your wheel and rotate through, you'll gain enough of a rest period that the overall speed of the group will likely be faster than you just iTTing it. Of course this is AG racing, so you also will run into inefficient pulls, groups not working together. You'll be surprised that you can see a 6 person group and they all still are riding for themselves and not as a group. Watch women's races, it happens a lot of times there.

Finally there really are no decisions in DL. The swim is where you bust your ass to the first turn buoy and then the pace will start to settle down. But what you'll find is that if you get caught in the scrum on the turns, those guys ahead are swimming out and gaps form. That's why for ITU style success, a lot of the success comes from your 200 free time vs your 800f time. I've got a kid now that's a pretty good athlete, I'd wager could get his pro card at 70.3 distance within an year. Fantastic ability to sit on threshold all day. But ask him to go into redline and sit there, and he blows up and cant recover. It's not bad, I think you can correct some of it, but at the end of the day, you have to play to your strengths.

So the advice I would give you. Give DL racing a try, just because it's probably something to say you did. But if you get done and say "enough", that's fair too. Nothing wrong with not being successful or comfortable in the format, especially if you struggle with it.

I love this quote from one of the ITU guys on this site (I think he heard it elsewhere, but it was Jason Pedersen). Best way to sum up ITU: It's like fighting a gorilla, you don't give up when your tired, you give up when the gorilla is tired.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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The "Adult-Onset Triathletes" can learn to draft and ride packs much the same way "Adult-Onset Master's Cyclists" learn that...

ZONE3 - We Last Longer
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Dan, the more I think about this, the more issues and questions I have.

If I look at what you posted the first time the ITU got back to you, it was below.

SLOWTWITCH: I’m assuming that you will be allowing road race bikes only, no tri bikes, in the first draft-legal age-group sprint worlds. Are you moving toward no clip-ons at all? And what other equipment rule changes will there be?

ITU: To date, there haven’t been any equipment rule changes. However, it is something the technical committee will take into consideration ahead of the rule implementation.

SLOWTWITCH: . When it comes to world championships for age-group racing, what kinds of format changes would you like to see beside draft-legal? Do you see pontoons and all of that? Or is it really just a change in bike rules and bike equipment?

ITU: At this point it's just a change in bike drafting rules.

Then when you wrote you article, things changed, but not with more clarity.


So, I really have no idea what the ITU is trying to do. Are they saying the above which is just stop enforcing drafting penalties and everything else is the same like field size? Or are they saying they are taking the DL Elite rules and adding AGers?

I just see no way the later will work. Am I going to have to buy 2 bikes? Would I have to ship 2 different bikes to worlds if I were to do both distances like I am this year?

I still think if your first response back is what the race becomes, great. If not, I do not see how large fields could happen. I then do not see how a Sprint DL could make a profit with a small field and survive. Or heads in beds.

I just think there is a chance the ITU made a big mistake with this announcement before it was thought through with the NF's first. (WTC has made a few mistakes with rule changes and had to undue them).

So, until I see a LOT more details, at the moment, I would not be making any changes since this might never happen.

.


Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Wasn't the recent "Rush" event draft legal? I understand it was a weekend with multiple heats, etc., but I imagine something can be learned from it. Also, what are the other organizations (outside of US) doing?

I can't imagine that DL racing will become the norm. You and several others are offering reasons why that won't be the case. However, I don't see what there can't be several (10 or more) races nation-wide that are constructed in such a manner that a DL race is possible, especially if a single-loop bike course. I think that is what will happen. And, there could be a national championship based on qualifying from the only DL races around that would tend to be more elite.

I believe some people here are overthinking this. It can be sorted out. It has in other countries. What makes US so special that we can't figure it out?
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Dave, I don't think things ever changed. It seems you had this illusion that they were going to turn the race into TT bikes + draft legal. That was never going to ever be on the consideration table. Which is why I said, you were assuming that and from what I was reading ITU was simply going to follow their rules under the "drafting" section.

But they were never going to "re do" the rule book.


What mistake did ITU make? It seems you were in favor of having races where you could ride your TT bike and draft, and that would be the only change. That aint going to happen on ITUs watch. Now you can go do your buddies race and enjoy it and race under an non-federation sanctioned race. It can even be successful, but that type of rule aint going to fly for USAT/ITU.

As I said from the very beginning, this is all really simply, you just don't like that it's changing equipment. Yes that makes it harder, yes that means you have to buy another bike. Does that make it a limiter, you bet. But if it's a limiter because of "safety" issues, then I'm for it. I was never for your idea of racing where they simply took out the non-draft rules, and made it a free for all on TT bikes.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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the results of a DL WC in the sprint distance will be a joke if they just allow drafting for 1,000 participants....

by the way, if you swim slow and bike fast, I want you in my wave......
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Fooshee] [ In reply to ]
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Yes I was at the Rush event. I loved it, AG'ers loved it. BUT you cant have that format and put pro cards or money on the line and not have a lap out rule (the EDR event, well the whole event did not use lap out rule). Rush was sorta an outlier because the bike loops were what 1/2 mile I believe. Like literally 80s per lap. That's impossible not to lap out like half the field. So if they went with that format and say Rev3 did them at Charlotte, Las Vegas speedways, they'd simply take out the lap rule and just have it as a "anything goes" (as was the case in Richmond). In that format, think of it more like an iTT where your simply allowed to draft. So if you come out 1 lap behind leaders, well jump on their wheel and just get free tow to T2.

Fantastic event, and I think they are going to be potentially doing one in Cali at some point. NO I've said DL wont become the norm. It doenst need to become the norm. But just have enough races so that it is a viable option IF you want to. I'm talking with USAT currently to see if they will provide funding for each USAT region to have 1 DL event. Let that serve as a qualifier for nationals. You could then have what 8-10 DL events with the following time line:

-Junior F/M Event
-Youth F/M event
-AG F/M event

Cap it at 75 per field, hold the races from 7am- 4pm and you'd be set.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
Dave, I don't think things ever changed. It seems you had this illusion that they were going to turn the race into TT bikes + draft legal. That was never going to ever be on the consideration table. Which is why I said, you were assuming that and from what I was reading ITU was simply going to follow their rules under the "drafting" section.

But they were never going to "re do" the rule book.


What mistake did ITU make? It seems you were in favor of having races where you could ride your TT bike and draft, and that would be the only change. That aint going to happen on ITUs watch. Now you can go do your buddies race and enjoy it and race under an non-federation sanctioned race. It can even be successful, but that type of rule aint going to fly for USAT/ITU.

As I said from the very beginning, this is all really simply, you just don't like that it's changing equipment. Yes that makes it harder, yes that means you have to buy another bike. Does that make it a limiter, you bet. But if it's a limiter because of "safety" issues, then I'm for it. I was never for your idea of racing where they simply took out the non-draft rules, and made it a free for all on TT bikes.

Since your opinion is not what Dan got back the first time from the ITU, as I quoted from Dans post, time will tell. You might be right, as I have always said, and if so, I just do not see how this can work and make a profit.

So, I will continue to just see how this plays out. At the moment, I still think the ITU has acted too quickly on this idea without enough thoughts in how it would be implemented.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Steve-oH!] [ In reply to ]
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Steve-oH! wrote:
the results of a DL WC in the sprint distance will be a joke if they just allow drafting for 1,000 participants....

by the way, if you swim slow and bike fast, I want you in my wave......

I wish. I swim slow, bike slow and at the moment can run fast. But if I were to do a DL race, I would put the time back into
swimming to get as good as I can, and then try to get a pack to hold onto the back on the bike. Then I can have fun on the run.

From what some are saying, the size of a DL field, if Elite DL rules are used, might be just 100. Might as well kill
the sprint AG distance race at Nationals and worlds if this is the case.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
Yes I was at the Rush event. I loved it, AG'ers loved it. BUT you cant have that format and put pro cards or money on the line and not have a lap out rule (the EDR event, well the whole event did not use lap out rule). Rush was sorta an outlier because the bike loops were what 1/2 mile I believe. Like literally 80s per lap. That's impossible not to lap out like half the field. So if they went with that format and say Rev3 did them at Charlotte, Las Vegas speedways, they'd simply take out the lap rule and just have it as a "anything goes" (as was the case in Richmond). In that format, think of it more like an iTT where your simply allowed to draft. So if you come out 1 lap behind leaders, well jump on their wheel and just get free tow to T2.

Fantastic event, and I think they are going to be potentially doing one in Cali at some point. NO I've said DL wont become the norm. It doenst need to become the norm. But just have enough races so that it is a viable option IF you want to. I'm talking with USAT currently to see if they will provide funding for each USAT region to have 1 DL event. Let that serve as a qualifier for nationals. You could then have what 8-10 DL events with the following time line:

-Junior F/M Event
-Youth F/M event
-AG F/M event

Cap it at 75 per field, hold the races from 7am- 4pm and you'd be set.

Yep, you and I just have a totally different view of what a DL AG race can be.

But if you are right, then USAT would just kill off the Sprint Nationals since there would be no need for a team to send to worlds. Too small.

Again, I do not think the ITU thought this out with the NF's before they commented. I still would not be surprised to see them pull the comment back unless something really changes.

And if the DL AG race is how you describe, I would no longer have any interest racing it. Too boring with that few people.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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I've never once read where ITU said they are going to allow TT bikes. They have said from the 1st thing that they simply are changing the rules from non-draft to draft legal. Which means they follow THEIR draft legal rule book. They don't need to "re do" the rules, they already have the rules of the road. You simply don't think it'll work for AG'ers, or don't like that they wont just make it wild wild west style drafting on TT bikes.


Explain to me what they need to clarify? The only thing I need clarification on is wave sizes, everything else is setup just how I thought they would, in regards to the equipment changes.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
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Last edited by: BDoughtie: Jul 22, 14 9:03
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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You may not like the ITU format of DL race, but I've never once heard it referenced as "boring". You would be in the very very small minority with thinking that it is a boring format.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
I've never once read where ITU said they are going to allow TT bikes. They have said from the 1st thing that they simply are changing the rules from non-draft to draft legal. Which means they follow THEIR draft legal rule book. They don't need to "re do" the rules, they already have the rules of the road. You simply don't think it'll work for AG'ers, or don't like that they just make it wild wild west style drafting on TT bikes.


Explain to me what they need to clarify? The only thing I need clarification on is wave sizes, everything else is setup just how I thought they would, in regards to the equipment changes.

They did not say this. The first time they said this to Dan.

"Road geometry frame"

well... i wouldn't necessarily assume that. here are answers i got back today from the ITU.

SLOWTWITCH: I’m assuming that you will be allowing road race bikes only, no tri bikes, in the first draft-legal age-group sprint worlds. Are you moving toward no clip-ons at all? And what other equipment rule changes will there be?

ITU: To date, there haven’t been any equipment rule changes. However, it is something the technical committee will take into consideration ahead of the rule implementation.

SLOWTWITCH: . When it comes to world championships for age-group racing, what kinds of format changes would you like to see beside draft-legal? Do you see pontoons and all of that? Or is it really just a change in bike rules and bike equipment?

ITU: At this point it's just a change in bike drafting rules.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Again, we just read the same things totally differently.

.


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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
You may not like the ITU format of DL race, but I've never once heard it referenced as "boring". You would be in the very very small minority with thinking that it is a boring format.

I never said that! I think Long course stuff is boring. Read what I wrote. Short DL racing is fantastic to watch!!!

.

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You just posted this comment:

And if the DL AG race is how you describe, I would no longer have any interest racing it. Too boring with that few people.


ETA: It's really simple. There are 2 rules by which ITU follows in regards to their races, non-draft and draft. There are no hybrid, there is no 3rd option. If it's drafting, they following drafting and the equipment rules regarding that segment. If it's non-draft they follow non-draft. There never was going to be TT bikes allowed, all that the ITU did in answering Dan's 1st question was saying they are changing to drafting rules. Nothing more, nothing less. So go read up on that section and you'll know what bikes, equipment is needed.

Now you can go do your buddies race where TT bikes are allowed and have a blast. Nothing wrong with that type of format, but I'm willing to wager you wont ever see that in an ITU/USAT sanctioned race. Maybe that's how they do it in Guatamala or Brazil, etc., but standard road bike is going to be required as will very likely closed course. Being that it's a closed course if it's an small bike loop, also likely going to have lap out rule in affect, because of the various wave starts. You could do a 1 lap course and do a rolling wave start and all will be good.

So to me it boils down to the bike loop. You put on an 1 lap bike course, and you'll be able to essentially have as many athletes sign up as you want. You could do 75 man waves and start every 30 mins, and the course will be clear for 98% of the athletes. You make an multi-loop bike course and you cant have rolling wave starts. The course is basically closed and each wave is an race in itself.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
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Last edited by: BDoughtie: Jul 22, 14 9:16
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Realistically, I don't see most races flipping over to DL, I see a select series of races, nationals and worlds going to the DL format for AGers.

In Ontario at least, currently to race DL, you have to take a course to get a DL card, don't know if it helps, but gives people the basics. The ability based Category system on the road really does nothing to assess skill, just fitness. I have raced years at the cat 3 level (primarily, just because I haven't had the focused time to put in the work it takes to earn an upgrade), and have plenty of experience in races with people who can't ride their bike in anything close to a straight line, but are super fit, and either win from breaks or in a sprint, because they're so scary that nobody dares to try to go around them for fear of being taken down. There's always a risk, drafting or not...

As for equipment, generally I would say use the UCI definition in terms of basics, not necessarily require the stickers on everything (certainly many people have bikes and wheels that pre-date the labelling system). As for discs, I think it would be negligent to allow them in DL, cross-wind in a pack, lightweight rider, I've seen crashes in non-DL races with strong crosswinds from a rider with a disc passing someone, hitting a gust and putting the other rider in the ditch... But otherwise, if it;s a conventional wheel with a reasonable spoke count, it should be good to go. TT bikes are a no go (converted TT bikes should be fine), probably easier with no bars, but shorty aero-bars could work. The 5cm rule seems arbitrary, but I could see mandating that the nose be behind the centre of the BB, to avoid front loading the bikes too much (since that tends to mess up handling for a lot of people).

As for wave sizes, 75-100, so 2-3 AGs at once (for the smaller ones, you might be able to combine more). I don't think you need to pull lapped riders, just put an official moto with the lead pack, and anyone lapped can't integrate with packs on the lead lap. They police it well at road races, with minimal official vehicles compared to what I see at many tris, so it's really a non-issue.

Closed courses, or at least closed lanes make sense for safety (most multisport races I've ever done are on closed courses, or closed lanes anyways). if you cap the field sizes, I see no reason you can't do multi-loop courses. I personally would love technical courses with short punchy climbs to break things up on the bike...
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Lastcall] [ In reply to ]
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I'm in a similar boat where DL wouldn't have much appeal to me. I'm a BOFOP (back of the front of the pack) AGer. If I podium or even threaten, it's because I was able to put time into everyone else on the swim and especially the bike. I podium in spite of my running, not because of it.

Example: 2nd place in a mini-sprint earlier this year, 5th percentile AG swim, 8th percentile AG bike, 16th percentile AG run. And that was a really good run for me.

With DL, what happens? The guy that comes out of the water 1:06 behind me doesn't lose another 1:30 to me on the bike (3rd fastest in AG). Instead he latches onto the guy 10 seconds behind him out of the water who rides the fastest bike split in the AG. They pass me just before T2 and I latch on to them. Top bike split guy is a lousy runner or blows up. Guy that finished 4th in the actual non-draft race, runs 20 seconds per mile faster than me and takes second. Guy that finished 3rd also rides faster when he latches on to a different wheel, runs 15 seconds per mile faster than me and passes me maybe 1/4 mile from the finish. I miss the podium completely.

That's the "only draft off your AG" scenario. Change that and it's just a total crap shoot what would have happened because the controlling factor is the luck of who comes by from another AG and when.

I can see the place for DL and even why it might be fun to try. I'll just be one of those hoping that its spread and impact is somewhat limited.
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [dgunthert] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Ok let's play out your scenario.

IF your splits are correct, you will not get caught before T2. I don't care how well the 2/3 guy are working together. With an 1:06 advantage, that's nearly 4/10th a mile, with a 8th percentile bike split, your not going to get caught in only 12 miles. You may only be up 10-15s ahead of them by T2, but if you get caught with an 1:06 advantage, you didn't ride to your bike strength. So even if you do, you are basically even with the top bike split as the "sitting in" guy has you beat. So then it's you vs the other guy, both who are dog tired from the bike leg.

You may still get 4th, but you misrode the bike leg if you have a bike strength and gave up an full 1+ min advantage to 2 people.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BDoughtie wrote:
You just posted this comment:

And if the DL AG race is how you describe, I would no longer have any interest racing it. Too boring with that few people.


ETA: It's really simple. There are 2 rules by which ITU follows in regards to their races, non-draft and draft. There are no hybrid, there is no 3rd option. If it's drafting, they following drafting and the equipment rules regarding that segment. If it's non-draft they follow non-draft. There never was going to be TT bikes allowed, all that the ITU did in answering Dan's 1st question was saying they are changing to drafting rules. Nothing more, nothing less. So go read up on that section and you'll know what bikes, equipment is needed.

Now you can go do your buddies race where TT bikes are allowed and have a blast. Nothing wrong with that type of format, but I'm willing to wager you wont ever see that in an ITU/USAT sanctioned race. Maybe that's how they do it in Guatamala or Brazil, etc., but standard road bike is going to be required as will very likely closed course. Being that it's a closed course if it's an small bike loop, also likely going to have lap out rule in affect, because of the various wave starts. You could do a 1 lap course and do a rolling wave start and all will be good.

So to me it boils down to the bike loop. You put on an 1 lap bike course, and you'll be able to essentially have as many athletes sign up as you want. You could do 75 man waves and start every 30 mins, and the course will be clear for 98% of the athletes. You make an multi-loop bike course and you cant have rolling wave starts. The course is basically closed and each wave is an race in itself.

Yep, I said for me too boring with that few people. That is being in the race, I said nothing about watching, which you stated I did. Why do you try to say I said things I have not?

As I think about this more, I continue to think the ITU has not given enough data.

What they have not said is, I think, is whether this new DL AG sprint race in 2016 is a complete new race with different specs, etc. as you suggest, or does it totally eliminate the non DL sprint race?
Have you seen anything in writing from the ITU that answers this question?

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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to me this is all there is...<<SLOWTWITCH: . When it comes to world championships for age-group racing, what kinds of format changes would you like to see beside draft-legal? Do you see pontoons and all of that? Or is it really just a change in bike rules and bike equipment?

ITU: At this point it's just a change in bike drafting rules. >>
all they are doing is dropping the enforcement of the drafting rules. there is no additional specific info or clarification. the next time itu creates any racing or rules according to the needs or wishes of age group athletes will be the first time. I'm not thinking this is that time. brooks I agree with your approach but itu is not going to create anything that needs more enforcement, I just don't see it.
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Dave, it's simple. No longer is the sprint race non-draft. It's now an draft legal event. Meaning new standards of equipment, etc. Nothing more, nothing less. They aren't adding or taking away any races, just changing to format.
Here's the language:

ITU would like to make you aware that its Executive Board has approved a change to the Competition Rules which will see the ITU Sprint Distance Age Group competition at the World Championship move from a "drafting-illegal" to a "drafting legal" competition.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
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http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: BDoughtie: Jul 22, 14 10:44
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BDoughtie wrote:
Dave, it's simple. No longer is the sprint race non-draft. It's now an draft legal event. Meaning new standards of equipment, etc. Nothing more, nothing less. They aren't adding or taking away any races, just changing to format.
Here's the language:

ITU would like to make you aware that its Executive Board has approved a change to the Competition Rules which will see the ITU Sprint Distance Age Group competition at the World Championship move from a "drafting-illegal" to a "drafting legal" competition.

Yep, that what they said. No where did they say this will be using Elite DL rules, which you keep trying to say they said.

And what Dan got back the first time from the ITU supports we have more questions than answers, even though you still cannot show something written from the ITU to support your claims on what will happened, unless I missed this release from the ITU.

"Road geometry frame"

well... i wouldn't necessarily assume that. here are answers i got back today from the ITU.

SLOWTWITCH: I’m assuming that you will be allowing road race bikes only, no tri bikes, in the first draft-legal age-group sprint worlds. Are you moving toward no clip-ons at all? And what other equipment rule changes will there be?

ITU: To date, there haven’t been any equipment rule changes. However, it is something the technical committee will take into consideration ahead of the rule implementation.

SLOWTWITCH: . When it comes to world championships for age-group racing, what kinds of format changes would you like to see beside draft-legal? Do you see pontoons and all of that? Or is it really just a change in bike rules and bike equipment?

ITU: At this point it's just a change in bike drafting rules.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman


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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Afleet Alex] [ In reply to ]
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Afleet Alex wrote:
to me this is all there is...<<SLOWTWITCH: . When it comes to world championships for age-group racing, what kinds of format changes would you like to see beside draft-legal? Do you see pontoons and all of that? Or is it really just a change in bike rules and bike equipment?

ITU: At this point it's just a change in bike drafting rules. >>
all they are doing is dropping the enforcement of the drafting rules. there is no additional specific info or clarification. the next time itu creates any racing or rules according to the needs or wishes of age group athletes will be the first time. I'm not thinking this is that time. brooks I agree with your approach but itu is not going to create anything that needs more enforcement, I just don't see it.

Yep, that is all I have seen also but some seem to have secret information that none of us have seen yet on more details. What Dan posted from the ITU at first seems clear what they are/were thinking.

"Road geometry frame"

well... i wouldn't necessarily assume that. here are answers i got back today from the ITU.

SLOWTWITCH: I’m assuming that you will be allowing road race bikes only, no tri bikes, in the first draft-legal age-group sprint worlds. Are you moving toward no clip-ons at all? And what other equipment rule changes will there be?

ITU: To date, there haven’t been any equipment rule changes. However, it is something the technical committee will take into consideration ahead of the rule implementation.

SLOWTWITCH: . When it comes to world championships for age-group racing, what kinds of format changes would you like to see beside draft-legal? Do you see pontoons and all of that? Or is it really just a change in bike rules and bike equipment?

ITU: At this point it's just a change in bike drafting rules.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

.


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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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I just gave you the release, Dan already acknowledged, no TT bikes. So again, the ITU has 2 sets of rules. There are no hybrid rules, there are no rules for "elites". It's either DL or non-draft rules. They are saying they are going to run under "drafting legal" rule set. Each rule then pertains to that set of rules. IF it's DL then you have regular road bikes, UCI approved wheels, smaller wave starts, saddle position restrictions, etc. (much more strict than non-draft).

The only issue is going to be the wave starts and how they'll handle that. If they do a rolling start, then essentially it's like it is now, just that it's free to draft but you all are on road bikes. That's the only question now at this point.

So go get a road bike right now if you want to qualify for 2016 world's sprint. It's that simple. Don't want to, then don't, and your only eligible for Olympic worlds. Not really sure what else needs to be explained.
ETA: That's the biggest detail that you need to worry about really, getting a road bike. You must use a traditional framed bike with no extended TT bars. The "cute" stuff we are discussing is fodder. So if you are serious about wanting to do DL and seeing you've already done 3, then get a road bike. If you don't want to get a road bike then non of the other details will matter.

------------------
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Last edited by: BDoughtie: Jul 22, 14 11:01
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
I just gave you the release, Dan already acknowledged, no TT bikes. So again, the ITU has 2 sets of rules. There are no hybrid rules, there are no rules for "elites". It's either DL or non-draft rules. They are saying they are going to run under "drafting legal" rule set. Each rule then pertains to that set of rules. IF it's DL then you have regular road bikes, UCI approved wheels, smaller wave starts, saddle position restrictions, etc. (much more strict than non-draft).

The only issue is going to be the wave starts and how they'll handle that. If they do a rolling start, then essentially it's like it is now, just that it's free to draft but you all are on road bikes. That's the only question now at this point.

So go get a road bike right now if you want to qualify for 2016 world's sprint. It's that simple. Don't want to, then don't, and your only eligible for Olympic worlds. Not really sure what else needs to be explained.
ETA: That's the biggest detail that you need to worry about really, getting a road bike. You must use a traditional framed bike with no extended TT bars. The "cute" stuff we are discussing is fodder. So if you are serious about wanting to do DL and seeing you've already done 3, then get a road bike. If you don't want to get a road bike then non of the other details will matter.

Why do you ignore what the ITU sent Dan and he posted on the other thread? I know the ITU the second time is saying something different, which implies the third time the ITU talks it might be different again.

Show me anywhere the ITU has released a statement saying it is going to using the "drafting legal" rule set, and what this is. Please, give me this link and you win.

.

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
   
It's simple.

Want to do 2016 world's get a road bike. Don't want to get a road bike then the rules wont apply to you, and you not need worry anymore. That's where you need to make your important decision at.


I have repeatedly said, go read the rule book for yourself if you want to know the rules and equipment options for DL. Dan confirmed no TT bikes (which I knew/understood was the case the entire time).

ETA: And with that Dave, I'm not responding to you anymore. Your really just trying to make assumptions just to make assumptions and argue over fodder. Nothing else really to discuss. If you want to "assume" things will change in ITU's rules, then live always questions "well what if". It's pretty simple what they have done. They are going to run the AG race now under most of the DL rules. I wonder aloud how they will do the waves, and that's about it. But road bikes, wheels, are going to be heavily regulated, you can count on that. But because it's not in "print", I understand you'll probably question that too. Good day

------------------
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Last edited by: BDoughtie: Jul 22, 14 11:19
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not coming from this from your point of view. You're point of view is from elite level racing, correct? Aren't you a coach who brings clients to EDR events? I'm not. I'm not a coach. I'm not an elite. Far from it. There are currently a handful of EDR events that are DL, correct? Why do we need more of those?

Why not allow typical age group athletes the chance to race a DL race? I think it can be done without having multiple laps, etc. If it's a single lap race, then you should be allowed to draft anyone you want. There will be no fast groups coming through that you are "lucky" enough to catch on to because they will be up the road. If it is an AG that started behind you, then shame on you for not swimming fast enough.

If it isn't made to mimic an ITU race, then I think it can be a lot simpler than people are letting on. Granted, there won't be that many locations that will allow for this format. This is probably a good thing.

Just my opinion though. I'm not as involved as most.
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Steve-oH!] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Steve-oH! wrote:
.my predictions:

Draft legal triathlons will be miniscule in the USA. Few races with small fields...a blip.

I agree with you. There's only a small number of triathletes who want to try something different. And this will be different. It will be interesting to see how it goes.

---------------------------
''Sweeney - you can both crush your AG *and* cruise in dead last!! đŸ˜‚ '' Murphy's Law
Quote Reply
Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BDoughtie wrote:

It's simple.

Want to do 2016 world's get a road bike. Don't want to get a road bike then the rules wont apply to you, and you not need worry anymore. That's where you need to make your important decision at.


I have repeatedly said, go read the rule book for yourself if you want to know the rules and equipment options for DL. Dan confirmed no TT bikes (which I knew/understood was the case the entire time).

ETA: And with that Dave, I'm not responding to you anymore. Your really just trying to make assumptions just to make assumptions and argue over fodder. Nothing else really to discuss. If you want to "assume" things will change in ITU's rules, then live always questions "well what if". It's pretty simple what they have done. They are going to run the AG race now under most of the DL rules. I wonder aloud how they will do the waves, and that's about it. But road bikes, wheels, are going to be heavily regulated, you can count on that. But because it's not in "print", I understand you'll probably question that too. Good day

Yep, you never seem to be willing to give facts to justify your statements. You ignore my questions on what Dan posted from the ITU.

Oh well, we shall see.

The first time ITU did NOT say no TT bikes. The second they said no TT bikes. Why the change of answer? Could it change again? Have we seen any details released "officially" by the ITU on their site to support any more
details than their first release of information? Until then, all questions seem fair.

.

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Fooshee] [ In reply to ]
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Fooshee wrote:
I'm not coming from this from your point of view. You're point of view is from elite level racing, correct? Aren't you a coach who brings clients to EDR events? I'm not. I'm not a coach. I'm not an elite. Far from it. There are currently a handful of EDR events that are DL, correct? Why do we need more of those?

Why not allow typical age group athletes the chance to race a DL race? I think it can be done without having multiple laps, etc. If it's a single lap race, then you should be allowed to draft anyone you want. There will be no fast groups coming through that you are "lucky" enough to catch on to because they will be up the road. If it is an AG that started behind you, then shame on you for not swimming fast enough.

If it isn't made to mimic an ITU race, then I think it can be a lot simpler than people are letting on. Granted, there won't be that many locations that will allow for this format. This is probably a good thing.

Just my opinion though. I'm not as involved as most.

Yep, the way I see it could happen also, but until the ITU releases more official info on their website, we all are guessing.

.

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Can you please show me where they made a statement that TT bikes are allowed in draft legal events? Please show me that statement, thanks.

ETA: What facts do you need? I've repeatedly posted the rulebook for draft legal I think 1 time as a link, and 1 time full text. That's my facts for what equipment wil be needed. You seem to think that's incorrect.


Dave, you seem to be grasping at this idea that you'll be good on your TT bike. That has never been the case, and never will be the case.

So my question to you is:

Are you going to buy a road bike, yes or no?

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Last edited by: BDoughtie: Jul 22, 14 11:31
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
Can you please show me where they made a statement that TT bikes are allowed in draft legal events? Please show me that statement, thanks.

These comments back to Dan, which he posted, from the ITU the first time.

"Road geometry frame"

well... i wouldn't necessarily assume that. here are answers i got back today from the ITU.

SLOWTWITCH: I’m assuming that you will be allowing road race bikes only, no tri bikes, in the first draft-legal age-group sprint worlds. Are you moving toward no clip-ons at all? And what other equipment rule changes will there be?

ITU: To date, there haven’t been any equipment rule changes. However, it is something the technical committee will take into consideration ahead of the rule implementation.

SLOWTWITCH: . When it comes to world championships for age-group racing, what kinds of format changes would you like to see beside draft-legal? Do you see pontoons and all of that? Or is it really just a change in bike rules and bike equipment?

ITU: At this point it's just a change in bike drafting rules.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

How is that not clear what they said the first time he asked?




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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Fooshee] [ In reply to ]
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Yes I coach athletes that race in the ITU format, coached both elite and EDR athletes. I HIGHLY recommend doing an Rev3 Rush event. A ton of fun, small waves (15 per wave), super hard fun 30 min races.

I've said countless times the big issue with DL racing format in AGers will be the bike course, and how it deals with lapped riders. I've said repeatedly that for it to work in AG ranks, that either they need a 1 loop bike course or they just need to deal with the "competitive fairness" being compromised by various different wave group athletes all racing side by side.

If you can handle that compromise, then racing current ITU format, of short bike loops works for you. But if you want to pull those lapped athletes, then it will not work for AG athletes, as so many will be discouraged and never want to do that racing.


Now I favor a 1 loop bike course because you can get more waves on the course quicker, and neither waves really ever affect others. That's where it will pick up, but the downside is that it's not the cute entertaining event that families and friends get to see at the traditional ITU races. It essentially is the same feel as a non-draft event, just that your drafting on the bike now.

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
Can you please show me where they made a statement that TT bikes are allowed in draft legal events? Please show me that statement, thanks.

ETA: What facts do you need? I've repeatedly posted the rulebook for draft legal I think 1 time as a link, and 1 time full text. That's my facts for what equipment wil be needed. You seem to think that's incorrect.


Dave, you seem to be grasping at this idea that you'll be good on your TT bike. That has never been the case, and never will be the case.

So my question to you is:

Are you going to buy a road bike, yes or no?

And if you can give me the link to the ITU website which says TT bikes are not allowed and all the other details that you are saying are already decided, like the Elite DL rules will be used.

.

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Do you really think they are going to allow TT bikes in draft events? Did you really think that was the case? That's what you got from Dan's 1st set of questions? I took it the other way in that they were changing from non-draft to draft and then there will be no equipment changes as it pertains to their rules.

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Post deleted by BDoughtie [ In reply to ]
Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
Do you really think they are going to allow TT bikes in draft events? Did you really think that was the case? That's what you got from Dan's 1st set of questions? I took it the other way in that they were changing from non-draft to draft and then there will be no equipment changes as it pertains to their rules.

That is what they basically said when Dan asked the first time.

Folks draft all the time at our events today, so what is the big deal?

Interesting that we both read the same words and come back with different understandings. That is fair.

This is why I am asking where on the ITU website you can point me that says NO TT BIKES at 2016 worlds DL sprint race. Am not saying you are wrong but ...

"Road geometry frame"

well... i wouldn't necessarily assume that. here are answers i got back today from the ITU.

SLOWTWITCH: I’m assuming that you will be allowing road race bikes only, no tri bikes, in the first draft-legal age-group sprint worlds. Are you moving toward no clip-ons at all? And what other equipment rule changes will there be?

ITU: To date, there haven’t been any equipment rule changes. However, it is something the technical committee will take into consideration ahead of the rule implementation.

SLOWTWITCH: . When it comes to world championships for age-group racing, what kinds of format changes would you like to see beside draft-legal? Do you see pontoons and all of that? Or is it really just a change in bike rules and bike equipment?

ITU: At this point it's just a change in bike drafting rules.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Dad asked no tri bikes? ITU came back and said no equipment changes. How you can read this saying they said no TT bikes I just do not understand.

Then they said "it's just a change to the bike drafting rules". Nothing else was stated.

.

.


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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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I agree. I think it will be a fun event. Hopefully RDs can find locations with one bike loop. If that's the case, then basically have a normal race with road bikes and allow drafting on the bike.

Though, I have no idea if that is what ITU or USAT is thinking about.
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Dan's already addressed this. ITU has clarified and said no. Why wont you accept that?

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Fooshee] [ In reply to ]
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As long as the course is closed, I cant see why USAT would bother. In fact, if they did bother with the permit, let's call them on that. I know Dan would love to get info like that with regards to permitting races.

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
Dan's already addressed this. ITU has clarified and said no. Why wont you accept that?

Why should I accept something when asked has gotten multiple different answers?

Why can you not provide an ITU link with the facts that you say are in stone?

You might be right, but would I bet my job on something ITU has given 2 answers to the same question on which one long term is going to be right?

AGAIN, I have no idea what the answers are or will be, but I sure know there are way more questions than I see on the ITU website with answers.
When I see these answers on the ITU website, and the USAT website, then we will know. Until then, we are all just guessing. You might be right, or you might be wrong.
I have no idea.

.

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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You don't have to accept it. You can live with "well what if what if what if what if" questions you currently are doing all you want to. But the gist is simple, and everyone else gets it's.

2016 Sprint Worlds will be draft legal and on road bikes. Nothing more to say about this topic. That's where we stand. You want to accept it or not, it wont change the fact that 2016 world champs ITU sprint race will be raced on road geometry frames. So you can "worry" that it might change, or you can go get a road bike and train your ass off in the swim and bike. Your choice, we cant make that decision for you. But Dave, I'm out. I get your stance now. Your holding onto this idea that you "have no idea" what worlds rules they are going to be raced under. You are about the only one with that worry at this time. Everyone else understands it's road bikes only.

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
Ok let's play out your scenario.

I played out the scenario. That was the point. Those were real numbers from a race this season.

BDoughtie wrote:
IF your splits are correct, you will not get caught before T2.

That's funny, because in the actual race a few months ago, I distinctly remember getting caught just before T2 by the guy that rode the fastest split in the AG and the 4th fastest split OA. He was 1:17 behind me coming out of T1. Mr. 4th place came out of T1 20 seconds ahead of that guy, so would have latched on to his wheel almost right away. I'm completely baffled how that would be "mis-riding" the bike leg.
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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1. can you draft off somebody not in your "race"? Yes - it would be too hard to police.

2. should you be able to have any clip ons at all? Not sure.

3. how deep should wheels be allowed to be? Stick with the ITU/UCI rules, even if they suck.

4. are you obliged to retire if you're lapped? No.

5. should RDs be only allowed to have so many laps per race? It's up to the RD and the course, but I imagine there is going to be a need to keep lap counts down (less than 3?) because athletes can't count. And I say that somewhat jokingly, but it's easy to lose track when you're racing.

6. should there be any prerequisites to entering? This is a tough one. I personally feel that we should work hard to keep triathlon open to everybody. Does that mean we have to introduce a Cat system like USAC? I could see it. Instead of AG waves, we have Cat waves?

7. can you ride an MTB bike? Yes, to my point above, everybody should be able to try a tri. They'll just have to suck it up. I did my first 4 tris on a mountain bike. Still had a huge smile on my face.

8. should we shit-can 1.3.073 entirely for draft legal? No. I think we should try to keep things consistent to make it less confusing for new people. Hell, I still can't convince my father-in-law that my local sprint is not an Ironman. The simpler we can make the sport and the more consistent we can be with international rules, the better.

I have a few other open questions:
1. Will we see existing races go draft legal? At a minimum, drafting becomes one less thing for officials to deal with.

2. Will this do anything to improve TV coverage for triathlon? A multi-lap DL race would be potentially easier to put on TV. If anything, spectators might enjoy it because they get to see their athletes more often. But, I don't think we should confuse "draft legal" with "multi-lap" - they are two distinctly different things, even if we're used to draft-legal races tending to be multi-lap.

3. How will this affect the triathlon bike industry? If I want to get into triathlon, or if I want to just simplify my costs of participating in cycling-related sports, I can now buy just a road bike, race DL triathlons, race crits, ride gran fondos, and do my local group rides with one bike. That's actually pretty appealing to me.

4. How will this affect the triathlon race industry? This expands on my first open question, but I'm wondering if this will also introduce a potential for higher insurance costs due to higher perceived risk, and therefore higher race entry costs?

Overall, I like the idea.

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Last edited by: Travis R: Jul 22, 14 12:45
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [dgunthert] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah that's fair. Tell me again how you got 2nd in non-draft but you'd be passed by 2 other people? How did you get 4th and not maybe 3rd?

In DL racing, with your swim strength, it's pointless to do DL racing, because your going to suffer the most. So yes for you, you'd hate it, IF you didn't want to "re-work" your race. Meaning instead of going out to a 1:07 lead, you come out in 20s in T1, take your time to get all your bike setup and then latch on to the wheels of 2nd/3rd. Then you get to work with others, come in with top 3 together, and then see what happens (you'd save energy in both the swim and bike). But if your saying your swim is relegated, yes I'll agree to that. If that's why you wont do DL, fair enough, enjoy non-draft.

So you cant just apply non-draft splits to DL splits and say where you'd be. To race it smartly and give yourself the best change, you'd need to not go out so hard in the swim and only be up or swim just at the front. No need to even be that far ahead of the swim pack.
ETA: You would have 10 coaches telling you to sit up by lap 2 of the bike under the scenario you did to establish your finish. So again, DL races are tactical more than just "splits". It makes ZERO sense to be that far ahead out of swim if you are getting caught. So a good coach would tell you to back off the swim, and latch onto wheels early in the bike. You may not like that, but that's how you would race DL effectively. So just applying splits and saying you'd be forth, ahh doesn't really work that way. It does if you aren't smart about how you race. But if you cant hold a lead into T2, you'd be best to sit up in swim and wait for front group on lap 1 of the bike. Have a full 20k to sit in on wheels. You can also help work since you have a weak run to put more time on chasing athletes.

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Last edited by: BDoughtie: Jul 22, 14 12:45
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Sweeney] [ In reply to ]
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I am very interested in this type of race format.

I have two draft legal age group races within driving distance, but unfortunately, with injuries and scheduling conflicts I have not been able to race either. I am a better runner than cyclist and definitely a better cyclist than swimmer, but I like that this type of format POTENTIALLY makes the whole race matter. It also provides motivation to actually improve across all areas as opposed to relying on the bike and the swim to make up for lsot ground.

I hope it actually encourages some of the faster guys to show up and race sprint distance races too, as there seems to all too often be the belief that you need to focus on going long and not going fast as you get more experience. Personally, I love the speed of short racing, but it could be because its what I've done or be because of the way the ITU provides coverage of its events versus the WTC.

At the end of the day, it provides another option, one that I hope becomes viable, but time will tell.
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [dgunthert] [ In reply to ]
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You race a DL race tactically smart and you would not get beat 1/4 mi to go. But "splits" won't show that.

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
You don't have to accept it. You can live with "well what if what if what if what if" questions you currently are doing all you want to. But the gist is simple, and everyone else gets it's.

2016 Sprint Worlds will be draft legal and on road bikes. Nothing more to say about this topic. That's where we stand. You want to accept it or not, it wont change the fact that 2016 world champs ITU sprint race will be raced on road geometry frames. So you can "worry" that it might change, or you can go get a road bike and train your ass off in the swim and bike. Your choice, we cant make that decision for you. But Dave, I'm out. I get your stance now. Your holding onto this idea that you "have no idea" what worlds rules they are going to be raced under. You are about the only one with that worry at this time. Everyone else understands it's road bikes only.

As expected, you continue to not answer any fair questions, or provide links to an ITU website with what you think they are doing, said.

I will just keep posting what the ITU did sent to Dan in writing.

"Road geometry frame"

well... i wouldn't necessarily assume that. here are answers i got back today from the ITU.

SLOWTWITCH: I’m assuming that you will be allowing road race bikes only, no tri bikes, in the first draft-legal age-group sprint worlds. Are you moving toward no clip-ons at all? And what other equipment rule changes will there be?

ITU: To date, there haven’t been any equipment rule changes. However, it is something the technical committee will take into consideration ahead of the rule implementation.

SLOWTWITCH: . When it comes to world championships for age-group racing, what kinds of format changes would you like to see beside draft-legal? Do you see pontoons and all of that? Or is it really just a change in bike rules and bike equipment?

ITU: At this point it's just a change in bike drafting rules.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman




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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]
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My god, would anyone really show up to a draft legal tri and draft with 50-60 AGers with no idea of skill or qualifications?//

You mean like it is now? All i see is that most will be on bikes more suited to drafting and it should be a lot safer. Probably a lot safer than any cat 5 race at the beginning of the season..
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
My god, would anyone really show up to a draft legal tri and draft with 50-60 AGers with no idea of skill or qualifications?//

You mean like it is now? All i see is that most will be on bikes more suited to drafting and it should be a lot safer. Probably a lot safer than any cat 5 race at the beginning of the season..

Do we really think that the ITU has eliminated the NDL Sprint race, with thousands of folks at WC, and many more than this at various qualifying events throughout the world, for
a DL Sprint WC with maybe a hundred or two? This is why something is just not adding up.

USAT gets thousands doing Sprint Nationals. They are just going to say lets get rid of all this money and replace it with a race that is DL for a hundred folks? Who pays the bills? How do you sell
the heads in bed to a community?

Something just does not smell right.

I have no idea what is going to happen, but just does not make sense to kill a huge race series, NDL sprint, with a tiny DL sprint series.

And mark as you have stated many times on ST, the WC events have been basically draft legal anyways, so whats the big deal since they never had bike officials handing out penalties.

.

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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SLOWMAN: Unclear at the time of the announcement was what rules would be in use. Could you still ride a tri bike or is it road bikes only? This morning the ITU's media manager, Erin Greene, wrote to Slowtwitch, "The age-group sprint will now follow draft-legal rules. Those rules state that bikes have to be draft legal, which means there would not be TT bikes and no long clip-ons allowed. The technical committee, however, will continue to review the rules for age group races throughout the implementation process."

This means road bikes only, with the use of short clip-ons. One assumes that the question of clip-ons at all will be broached between now and that 2016 race.


From the front page article. This data came after the conversation you keep posting.
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Another thing I would worry about is teamwork / aiding. In DL races it would pay bigtime to have someone bury themselves for you on the bike. Think about it: you and your friend bury the swim, then you tuck in and rest while he/she also buries the bike. Then you're fresh for the run and his/her day is over. It already happens (somewhat rarely) in non DL races, so I guarantee it goes way up in DL, especially since I really can't see any way of policing it in AG racing. Gorilla suits will be the least of their problems.
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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And that was my only point. For me DL doesn't make sense. I won't ever run 6:30 or better miles in a sprint like the faster runners in my local AG. It's not going to happen in this lifetime. If I come in to T2 with the guys I'm usually competitive with, forget it. No amount of sitting in would allow me to run with them.
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [lanierb] [ In reply to ]
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Yes but that is DL racing is. Whether it's a teammate or instant "friend", that's why DL racing is so different. It's in your interest to find friends and help others and "share" the workload.

So whether it's purpose teammates or on the fly packmate, aiding/teamwork is being involved. Any concept of individual work goes out the window, it's how smart and tactical can you be to be successful.

It's like the other guy. In DL racing, it makes zero sense to be an swim hero and come out alone IF you cant back it up on the bike. So you work the group in the swim, all the while your saving energy. Then you'll have workmates on the bike and you save energy. So that guy who essentially iTT'd all the way to T2 and got caught, now saves energy in both the swim and bike, and can "save" some for an weak run. Then, I'll bet he has a stronger run.

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
good question. i'm thinking not. unless you want to get into some more hoity toity class, such as you want to be an elite, or some kind of elite junior, or pre-elite, or some such thing.

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [dgunthert] [ In reply to ]
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But tell me again the splits of the guy who you said would beat you 1/4th from the finish line.

Where would he be coming out of the swim compared to 2/3rd who caught you at T2?

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Fooshee] [ In reply to ]
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So why did they give Dan one set of inputs, then a different set?

When I see on the ITU website, and USAT website exactly what is going on, then I will believe it. Right now too many unanswered questions.

.

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Steve-oH!] [ In reply to ]
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Steve-oH! wrote:
.....and this is why this is a goofy format for Age Group....to many problems to overcome to do it right.....and if you allow the above its a goofy event where luck plays a huge part. dumb.

my predictions:

Draft legal triathlons will be miniscule in the USA. Few races with small fields...a blip.

Luck is a factor in all sorts of racing. Why is it suddenly a deal-breaker here?

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Any chance you can stop polluting the thread with the exact same quote every post??? Would be much appreciated.

Now, to totally blow your mind, consider for a second an alternate reason for your confusion. Please try to follow me.

The first response from ITU didn't explicitly say yes or no to road bikes. That means two things were possible, the ITU thought that people (Dan) would assume typical draft legal rules or people would assume they meant standard non-draft rules. You have assumed they meant non-draft rules. Many others assumed they meant draft legal rules. For those of us who assumed draft legal rules, we don't see two different answers from ITU, we see one with minimal info and another with more explicit info. You assumed they meant non-draft rules and see a change in their position.

Dan specifically talked about road bikes only and no TT bikes allowed. The ITU response likely understood that dan would know that a drafting race would use drafting rules and they responded to say that they don't see any specific rule adaptations for age group draft legal.
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Toby] [ In reply to ]
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Toby wrote:
Steve-oH! wrote:
.....and this is why this is a goofy format for Age Group....to many problems to overcome to do it right.....and if you allow the above its a goofy event where luck plays a huge part. dumb.

my predictions:

Draft legal triathlons will be miniscule in the USA. Few races with small fields...a blip.

Luck is a factor in all sorts of racing. Why is it suddenly a deal-breaker here?

Luck within your race, not from an outside group. The result of the open water swim race shouldn't be influenced by someone getting a draft or held up by the rowing events.
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
Yes but that is DL racing is. Whether it's a teammate or instant "friend"
Instant "friend" is fine and I totally get that is part of the strategy in DL racing. I'm more worried about *every* top AG'er having a pacing buddy lined up for *every* big race. Pretty sure that WILL happen, and it doesn't seem like a great form of racing to me. It's a really different form of racing to even elite DL racing.
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Dan replied that ITU CLARIFIED it's statement on the equipment ruling.

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Jctriguy] [ In reply to ]
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Jctriguy wrote:
Any chance you can stop polluting the thread with the exact same quote every post??? Would be much appreciated.

Now, to totally blow your mind, consider for a second an alternate reason for your confusion. Please try to follow me.

The first response from ITU didn't explicitly say yes or no to road bikes. That means two things were possible, the ITU thought that people (Dan) would assume typical draft legal rules or people would assume they meant standard non-draft rules. You have assumed they meant non-draft rules. Many others assumed they meant draft legal rules. For those of us who assumed draft legal rules, we don't see two different answers from ITU, we see one with minimal info and another with more explicit info. You assumed they meant non-draft rules and see a change in their position.

Dan specifically talked about road bikes only and no TT bikes allowed. The ITU response likely understood that dan would know that a drafting race would use drafting rules and they responded to say that they don't see any specific rule adaptations for age group draft legal.

We just see what happened differently. I have never said this might be wrong, just does not make sense to me.

So, is it fair that until we see this on the ITU website, and then the USAT website, it is possible their is still confusion?

I have yet to see them write they are using DL Elite rules, which again might be true.

I have yet to see what field size they are going to use, etc.

Makes for interesting thoughts.

Still amazed that only 40% on the poll are saying no, period.

.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Jctriguy] [ In reply to ]
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Jctriguy wrote:
Toby wrote:
Steve-oH! wrote:
.....and this is why this is a goofy format for Age Group....to many problems to overcome to do it right.....and if you allow the above its a goofy event where luck plays a huge part. dumb.

my predictions:

Draft legal triathlons will be miniscule in the USA. Few races with small fields...a blip.


Luck is a factor in all sorts of racing. Why is it suddenly a deal-breaker here?


Luck within your race, not from an outside group. The result of the open water swim race shouldn't be influenced by someone getting a draft or held up by the rowing events.

I just don't care about the difference. I really don't. And I've seen breakaways in cycling helped or hindered by a train at a railroad crossing with less whining than this. It happens.

I'm starting to think that what people should do is just compare VO2max and FTP and skip the rest.

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
Dan replied that ITU CLARIFIED it's statement on the equipment ruling.

And this statement just says nothing is in stone.

"The technical committee, however, will continue to review the rules for age group races throughout the implementation process."

AGAIN, I am not saying this might not be the end result. But until we see what field size they are going to limit things to, this will really answer a lot of questions.
If it is small, like 100, multiple lap, cannot be lapped rule, etc, then I understand it is 100% DL elite rules for AGers. And if they and USAT say the existing
sprint NDL is dead, and the thousands that race it can find something else to spend their money on, then it is a slam dunk.

So, I hope Dan is working on getting more details from ITU and USAT.

I just cannot believe they would kill off the thousands that race sprint NDL, but if they do, guess I am glad I am doing it in 6 weeks.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [lanierb] [ In reply to ]
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Like I said, this is just a different set of rules/tactics everything. May not seem fair, and if that's the case, it's not going to change. It doesnt need to change. That's just apart of DL racing, and happens on the ITU circuit all the time. There have been plenty of flights/hotels/expenses covered for 1 athlete to domestique for another athlete, and it's occurred between guys not on the same federation. It really is just an different environment where anything goes essentiallly (assuming good sportsmanship obviously).

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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So, if 2016 age group worlds is DL, how is the qualifying going to work in the USA?

---------------------------
''Sweeney - you can both crush your AG *and* cruise in dead last!! đŸ˜‚ '' Murphy's Law
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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He got clarification.
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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So the question is, are you only doing this if you can ride your TT bike and draft, or are you going to buy a road bike?

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Sweeney] [ In reply to ]
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Sweeney wrote:
So, if 2016 age group worlds is DL, how is the qualifying going to work in the USA?

If 2016 Sprint AG worlds is elite DL rules with a very very small field, I want to what USAT is going with Nationals Sprint?
Would they just kill NDL sprint since there is now WC anymore and lose thousand of racers?

So if the ITU can say what the field size limit is, that really shows the direction.

Now, could WC have both a NDL sprint, with larger number of folks, and a DL sprint with a small number?

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Are you still okay with it if the pacing buddy is in a different field/wave? I.e., leisurely swim and then soft pedal until needed? Because that's what's going to happen.
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
So the question is, are you only doing this if you can ride your TT bike and draft, or are you going to buy a road bike?


I need to see what they are really doing first. If it is a small field, which implies no AG's, then no reason to buy a road bike since I would never
qualify.

I do have a very old road bike I used to race with when I first started. So depending on what happens, if I wanted to race and could compete, I would
just put it back together. (Last time I used it was commuting to work with my powercranks on it) No way am I spending a bunch of money on another bike. I spend WAY too much on this sport already. Am retired
so not one of the lucky folk who makes 160K per year in a job.

So, are you saying you think USAT and ITU will totally kill of NDL sprint, so USAT nationals in 2015 has no sprint NDL distance anymore?

Are you saying the new sprint will be Elite DL rules, super small field, which implies no need for Age Groups?

.

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Last edited by: h2ofun: Jul 22, 14 16:35
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [lanierb] [ In reply to ]
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As I've implied before if they have AG DL racing with waves all mix and matching, the "competitive fairness" will be out the window, whether athletes "intentional" cheat/draft off other waves or not. I'm a fan of 1 loop AG courses, not so much the multi-loop courses because that loop you have to keep only 1 wave on the course at a time to be "fair".

So as I said, there really are 2 options. 1 being the course that's 1 loop and waves go off roughly 30 mins. In that event, rarely will you see the type of teamwork your talking about. If said guy waited for his buddy in the next wave, all the others riding with that buddy get advantage as well, so it kinda defeats the purpose.

The 2nd option being doing ITU style crit course and then your going to run into issues because it's just going to take too long to get everyone through, and so you'll likely see waves riding with other waves.

------------------
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
As I've implied before if they have AG DL racing with waves all mix and matching, the "competitive fairness" will be out the window, whether athletes "intentional" cheat/draft off other waves or not. I'm a fan of 1 loop AG courses, not so much the multi-loop courses because that loop you have to keep only 1 wave on the course at a time to be "fair".

So as I said, there really are 2 options. 1 being the course that's 1 loop and waves go off roughly 30 mins. In that event, rarely will you see the type of teamwork your talking about. If said guy waited for his buddy in the next wave, all the others riding with that buddy get advantage as well, so it kinda defeats the purpose.

The 2nd option being doing ITU style crit course and then your going to run into issues because it's just going to take too long to get everyone through, and so you'll likely see waves riding with other waves.

If they eliminate the NDL sprint in our sport and replace with a Sprint DL elite rules crit event with multiple laps, you will not have to worry about me showing up. I know way too many folks who have gotten hurt
racing like that so no thanks.

.

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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But you'll do a DL Race that allows TT bikes with only having 5 min wave space timing with 300 people on a 3 loop bike course now?

You've actively spoken highly about that event countless times.

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
But you'll do a DL Race that allows TT bikes with only having 5 min wave space timing with 300 people on a 3 loop bike course now?

You've actively spoken highly about that event countless times.

Yep, I have done the race and it is fine. It is not a crit race setup, IMO. It is not stacked with all top racers.

Why are you not giving your opinions on any of the questions I have asked you?

.

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Just trying to wrap my head around the logistics of the first option, I agree it has to be a large time separation, but are we talking 10 plus waves like some races (some have 20+). Strictly broken by 5 year age groups, or larger spreads? First wave at 7 (oe heck, it's light at 6), you're talking hours to get through all the waves?

Doesn't it have to be the second option?
Last edited by: ChrisM: Jul 22, 14 17:23
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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I didn't see this post.

To answer your questions.

No I don't think USAT will kill off the ND Sprint, but I do think ITU is killing it at their WC's. The reason why I don't think USAT will kill it off, is because they can still get enough people to do the race to justify the cost all the while still having an "national championship" race. I think USAT is going to hold 3 championships, or let me say, I think there will be 3 races that go down. DL Sprint, ND Sprint, ND Olympic. Just this year at Nationals there is going to be a "mixed team relay" race. So they can add any type of race they want at nationals.


Why do you think there will be no need for AG'ers if they do elite rules? They very well could do elite rules and have it for AG'ers, I'm not sure why you have implied 2 times in your post that if they did small fields it would imply no AG's. Again, there IS GOING TO BE AN AG DL RACE for World's. Whether the multi-loop course or a 1 loop bike course (my guess is being at worlds it'll be on the same course as the other races, just shorter laps) the Sprint will be DL for AG'ers. I def think it's going to be multi-looped, which at this point I cant wrap my head around how it works. It just has too many variables with wave starts. They have clarified it's no TT bikes. They wont come off that, but I think the actual development of the race is still very much in doubt. How the actual races will be divided up, I think still is an issue, along with 200 vs 75 person waves. 75 is the standard DL format, but that would mean roughly 25 waves if there really was ~2k people racing it. Of course I think at most you'll see is 600-800 doing the DL event, which means where does roughly 1k people's money go when they cut them out because they change formats.

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Of course this is all solved if ITU says "oh we are having 3 races at World's; DL Sprint, ND Sprint, ND Olympic". Then all the problems would be solved because only the people that actually want to race DL would sign up and do it. IE, the actual field of athletes would be very high quality in that instance.

But their press release reads that the sprint race event is going from non draft to DL.

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
I didn't see this post.

To answer your questions.

No I don't think USAT will kill off the ND Sprint, but I do think ITU is killing it at their WC's. The reason why I don't think USAT will kill it off, is because they can still get enough people to do the race to justify the cost all the while still having an "national championship" race. I think USAT is going to hold 3 championships, or let me say, I think there will be 3 races that go down. DL Sprint, ND Sprint, ND Olympic. Just this year at Nationals there is going to be a "mixed team relay" race. So they can add any type of race they want at nationals.


Why do you think there will be no need for AG'ers if they do elite rules? They very well could do elite rules and have it for AG'ers, I'm not sure why you have implied 2 times in your post that if they did small fields it would imply no AG's. Again, there IS GOING TO BE AN AG DL RACE for World's. Whether the multi-loop course or a 1 loop bike course (my guess is being at worlds it'll be on the same course as the other races, just shorter laps) the Sprint will be DL for AG'ers. I def think it's going to be multi-looped, which at this point I cant wrap my head around how it works. It just has too many variables with wave starts. They have clarified it's no TT bikes. They wont come off that, but I think the actual development of the race is still very much in doubt. How the actual races will be divided up, I think still is an issue, along with 200 vs 75 person waves. 75 is the standard DL format, but that would mean roughly 25 waves if there really was ~2k people racing it. Of course I think at most you'll see is 600-800 doing the DL event, which means where does roughly 1k people's money go when they cut them out because they change formats.


Fair options. Will see what USAT says.

I never said no need for AGer if they do elite rules, again why say things I did not say? I never said small fields mean no AGers, it could imply to me mo AG groupings like we have today. Again, all this just depends how they set it up. I have no idea what they will do. An AG DL race does not have to mean Age groups for racing. It could mean just by ability for non elites it seems.

I agree with a lot of your questions, no idea.

I cannot say what I would or would not do for racing until I see details. I supported the initial comments Dan got from ITU since it just made legal what so many of our races are doing today. With the new clarity, if it stays they way, so many other questions before I could make any decisions.

No question there is a DL AG sprint race 2016 worlds. How many folks. Whether any AG brackets like today, who knows.
There will be an Olympic NDL 2016 worlds.
Seems there would no longer be a NDL AG sprint at 2016 worlds.

.

.

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Last edited by: h2ofun: Jul 22, 14 18:00
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
Of course this is all solved if ITU says "oh we are having 3 races at World's; DL Sprint, ND Sprint, ND Olympic". Then all the problems would be solved because only the people that actually want to race DL would sign up and do it. IE, the actual field of athletes would be very high quality in that instance.

But their press release reads that the sprint race event is going from non draft to DL.

I agree. I have no idea what they are really trying to do since their press release was so lacking in details.

I would love to see the ITU add Aquabike to worlds, and USAT to add to the AG Nationals. Get rid of the Aquathlon, no one cares. I can hardly find any races doing it. But in my area, the Aquabike has really taken off.

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]
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The thought of even 900 AG athletes doing DL at World's and the headaches involves makes me fear for the sanity of those ITU officials. How that goes down without it being a cluster is beyond me.


Now I think there can be locally/regionally run AG DL races and it be a whole lot less cluster. Here in the US this isn't going to take off, so it'll be manageable.

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Just goes back to the bike setup. If it is a single loop, then things would be easy? If lots of multiple loops, no idea how they would do it.

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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2009 Worlds on the Gold Coast was basically draft legal, logistics won't be an issue. If the US AG athletes don't get on board with this early you'll get left behind. This will be big in Aus (especially in VIctoria and Queensland) as the current sprint distance courses are set up to handle this type of racing.
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Freak] [ In reply to ]
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Explain how it went down with the different wave starts, lap out rules, etc. Or was this a 1 lap rule.

I think the right athletes will be on board with it. BUT in order to be on board, you gotta have races for people to do. You cant really have 1 nationals and then think we are going to do well at worlds. You gotta get the races out to people, and that's currently where there is a roadblock. No one has taken the chance to do it other than a few places.

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
BDoughtie wrote:
Or get lucky. If you think that's a fair setup, I'll just simply disagree.


We can find many "unfair" things in our races today. I just race with what is given and am happy to just be there.
If one does not like a race setup, just do not do it.
.

That is a silly thing to say in a thread where we can "decide" the rules.


If you've never done a DL race, you don't know anything about DL racing, and you have no intention of doing a DL race, why are you posting in a thread that has the potential to steer the direction of AG DL racing?

__________________________

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Freak] [ In reply to ]
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Freak wrote:
2009 Worlds on the Gold Coast was basically draft legal, logistics won't be an issue. If the US AG athletes don't get on board with this early you'll get left behind. This will be big in Aus (especially in VIctoria and Queensland) as the current sprint distance courses are set up to handle this type of racing.

Yep, I did that race and I agree, it was for all practical purposes, draft legal. I believe it was 2 laps also? And it was fun, top athletes, and safe, and on TT bikes. (Yep, folks can get hurt at any type of bike race)

We see some that think (especially in the US) it has to be a certain way. And boy if one tries to suggest there might be a different way this could work, well, just look at this thread. :o)

.

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [ZackCapets] [ In reply to ]
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ZackCapets wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
BDoughtie wrote:
Or get lucky. If you think that's a fair setup, I'll just simply disagree.


We can find many "unfair" things in our races today. I just race with what is given and am happy to just be there.
If one does not like a race setup, just do not do it.
.


That is a silly thing to say in a thread where we can "decide" the rules.


If you've never done a DL race, you don't know anything about DL racing, and you have no intention of doing a DL race, why are you posting in a thread that has the potential to steer the direction of AG DL racing?

I have done DL legal races. You can look my results up.

We shall see what the real rules are once they get posted on the ITU website. Depending on the final format, this may interest some, and not others. Pretty simple.

.

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Draft legal races have been around in several countries for a while. They manage to do them without too much carnage.
The common theme in all of them is you will need a new bike if you want to race draft legal.
However I think it should be noted that ITU Pro races tend to be on closed courses that are not going to accommodate 2000 participants.
So getting lapped either on the ride or the run cannot apply to draft legal age group races.
There's not much point to deep rimmed wheels either.

The perfect example of a race that can already accommodate thousands without difficulty, with both sexes on the course at the same time, is the Esprit in Montreal.
In one day they race on a closed course everything from IM distance, to Sprints.
They start waves steadily all day, with racers from every distance on the course at the same time.
It's always been a bit of a draft fest, slingshot heaven, for some, but there's no carnage.
Changing over to a draft legal format would probably cause no great hardship.
As for lapping and counting, we have enough electronics available to deal with that, most people can count to five and for longer races they announce.
It's been working for years.

I would be sad to see all races convert to draft legal, simply because the individuality of the sport would be lost, but for others it would be a welcome change.
But I would really miss my toys.
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
Freak wrote:
2009 Worlds on the Gold Coast was basically draft legal, logistics won't be an issue. If the US AG athletes don't get on board with this early you'll get left behind. This will be big in Aus (especially in VIctoria and Queensland) as the current sprint distance courses are set up to handle this type of racing.

Yep, I did that race and I agree, it was for all practical purposes, draft legal. I believe it was 2 laps also? And it was fun, top athletes, and safe, and on TT bikes. (Yep, folks can get hurt at any type of bike race)

We see some that think (especially in the US) it has to be a certain way. And boy if one tries to suggest there might be a different way this could work, well, just look at this thread. :o)

.

It's been shown repeatedly that your opinions and assumptions are incorrect, on this and many other topics. You still don't see the difference between 'basically' and draft-legal. It's like your still holding onto the idea that age group worlds will have two categories and allow TT bikes in the draft legal version. And somehow you think they will get rid of age groups and limit the field to 100 people. Ty reading without your personal blinders.
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Jctriguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Jctriguy wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Freak wrote:
2009 Worlds on the Gold Coast was basically draft legal, logistics won't be an issue. If the US AG athletes don't get on board with this early you'll get left behind. This will be big in Aus (especially in VIctoria and Queensland) as the current sprint distance courses are set up to handle this type of racing.


Yep, I did that race and I agree, it was for all practical purposes, draft legal. I believe it was 2 laps also? And it was fun, top athletes, and safe, and on TT bikes. (Yep, folks can get hurt at any type of bike race)

We see some that think (especially in the US) it has to be a certain way. And boy if one tries to suggest there might be a different way this could work, well, just look at this thread. :o)

.


It's been shown repeatedly that your opinions and assumptions are incorrect, on this and many other topics. You still don't see the difference between 'basically' and draft-legal. It's like your still holding onto the idea that age group worlds will have two categories and allow TT bikes in the draft legal version. And somehow you think they will get rid of age groups and limit the field to 100 people. Ty reading without your personal blinders.

I am still waiting to see on the ITU site what the full drafting rules are.

.

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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FYI, ITU Rule 5.2 States for Draft Legal races, they follow UCI road race rules, aka standard road bikes (you can ride a road set-up TT Frame, as long as you can get the saddle into a legal position vis a vis the BB)...

The ITU rulebook does not have Elite and AG rules when it comes to competition rules, just draft-legal non draft legal... assuming it's a sanctioned DL race, I would assume it follows ITU DL rules... for the bike segment.

There are specific Elite uniform rules and Course rules, which wouldn't necessarily apply to AG DL races, but in section 5 Bike rules of the rule book, it's just DL and Non DL in some of the sections for the differences...

http://www.triathlon.org/...14v2-highlighted.pdf for the latest edition on the ITU rule book (updated in Feb 2014).
Last edited by: Trauma: Jul 23, 14 7:03
Quote Reply
Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The rules have never changed with draft legal racing. But I'm curious your a guy who's raced an DL event on TT bike with over 300 people in it on a 3 lap bike course (crit style multi loop course). You said it was fine, so what's your hold up with this. What's the biggest issue for you?

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
h2ofun wrote:
BDoughtie wrote:
Of course this is all solved if ITU says "oh we are having 3 races at World's; DL Sprint, ND Sprint, ND Olympic". Then all the problems would be solved because only the people that actually want to race DL would sign up and do it. IE, the actual field of athletes would be very high quality in that instance.

But their press release reads that the sprint race event is going from non draft to DL.


I agree. I have no idea what they are really trying to do since their press release was so lacking in details.

I would love to see the ITU add Aquabike to worlds, and USAT to add to the AG Nationals. Get rid of the Aquathlon, no one cares. I can hardly find any races doing it. But in my area, the Aquabike has really taken off.

.

Boulder Stroke & Stride
Pure Austin Splash & Dash

Aquathlon is amazing! Show up after work with goggles and a pair of shoes and race. No bike, no closed transition, no flat tires, no headaches. Race and go home. Some of us do care.

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
Quote Reply
Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Trauma] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Trauma wrote:
FYI, ITU Rule 5.2 States for Draft Legal races, they follow UCI road race rules, aka standard road bikes (you can ride a road set-up TT Frame, as long as you can get the saddle into a legal position vis a vis the BB)...

The ITU rulebook does not have Elite and AG rules when it comes to competition rules, just draft-legal non draft legal... assuming it's a sanctioned DL race, I would assume it follows ITU DL rules... for the bike segment.

There are specific Elite uniform rules and Course rules, which wouldn't necessarily apply to AG DL races, but in section 5 Bike rules of the rule book, it's just DL and Non DL in some of the sections for the differences...

http://www.triathlon.org/...14v2-highlighted.pdf for the latest edition on the ITU rule book (updated in Feb 2014).

Thanks.

Does it say anything about maximum field size? Minimum number of laps? Wave starts? Bikes being lapped if a lapped course? How many marshals on the course?

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BDoughtie wrote:
The rules have never changed with draft legal racing. But I'm curious your a guy who's raced an DL event on TT bike with over 300 people in it on a 3 lap bike course (crit style multi loop course). You said it was fine, so what's your hold up with this. What's the biggest issue for you?

I have no issues. I just would like the details, that the ITU and USAT have put their stamp on.

As just one example, a response said the ITU has only one set of rules for a DL race. Great.

So I asked a number of questions and what the rules say or do not say.

Now, maybe I have read some responses wrong, but I thought the DL rules state that if a person is passed from the leader of a race, they are pulled from the course. I then read, I thought some said
this rule could not be enforced. So, if I read those posts correctly, how at one time folks are saying we following 100% of the DL rules, but then it sound likes some say some rules could not be enforced which
imply the DL rules might have to be modified to work with DL AG racing?

I am just a very detailed dot the I's and cross the T's kind of guy. You might not like the questions I ask this topic, but you probably would have been happy when I asked them for a computer you were using
so it did not delete or damage your data.

So, help me out with the questions I just posted. Seems you are saying all the answers for AG DL specific concerns should already be answered since you are saying NO modifications are needed.
And if so, seems no one needs to ask anymore questions since that PDF has ALL the answers already.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Toby] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I did not say no one cared. How many sanctioned Aquathlon races are there in the US? How many sactioned Aquabike races in the US? I can tell you just about every race I do has an Aquabike race.
Not one has an aquathlon.

How many going to worlds are doing the Aquathlon? Why are they always begging for folks to do it on TeamUSA?

The race is supposed to be a run, swim, run race. Why are worlds now only swim, run races before they know whether it will be a wetsuit swim or not?

I have swam both Nationals Aquathon at Portland, and at worlds. There are very very few folks who do them. Just the data.

Will I see you at the Aquathlon at worlds in a few weeks? Anyone could have been on the team by just asking. I will be racing.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Current ITU format is as follows:

DL start is 75 person field limit.

No min number of laps. But usually at min 5k worth of distance per lap. More helps with not lapping out riders.

There has never been a wave start yet in ITU. Get entire course to yourself within the 75 athletes.

Always have had lap out rule in ITU.

There are only 2 "on course" Marshalls. One lead Moto, other sits at back of last rider. When lead Moto passes you, your pulled.


That's the current ITU draft legal regulations to answer your question.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BDoughtie wrote:
Current ITU format is as follows:

DL start is 75 person field limit.

No min number of laps. But usually at min 5k worth of distance per lap. More helps with not lapping out riders.

There has never been a wave start yet in ITU. Get entire course to yourself within the 75 athletes.

Always have had lap out rule in ITU.

There are only 2 "on course" Marshalls. One lead Moto, other sits at back of last rider. When lead Moto passes you, your pulled.


That's the current ITU draft legal regulations to answer your question.

Thanks, this implies by your statement we know the final format for WC worlds. That makes maybe 1 or 2 per country so the 75 max is not exceeded.
Based on this, 99.9% of us have no chance to be the 1 or 2 on TeamUSA for this DL Sprint AG race. No reason to buy a road bike.

Again, since you and others are saying the DL AG rules are in stone, which you quoted above, I assume there is nothing left to ask? USAT has their answer also. Just kill of the Sprint race for 2015 since
there is no WC Sprint race anymore.

Honestly, am I missing something? Honestly.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Read the very 1st words of my post:

CURRENT ITU format

You've raced in an DL race WITH a TT bike with wave starts of only 5 mins apart per wave and the race had over 300 people.


There are CURRENT DL rules that I feel will very likely be set in stone, and I have a feeling there are rules they will be flexible with. Most dealing with the wave start times and/or the # of athletes on the course at a time. I don't think the governing body of the sport is going to make AG DL super elite competitive with only 2 athletes per country, but I also don't think they are going to be dumb enough to put 1000 athletes on the course at a time.


I hope you give it a go, since you seem to enjoy the Team USA experience so much, and you have previous DL experience. I think what you will see at these races is going to be a semi-realistic experience of how the pros do it. Lots of tactics, lots of looking around at others see how they look/feel, lots of "games" being played. I think it's going to be a fanfreakingtastic experience, that I think your getting worked up about for absolutely nothing. The biggest deal you need to worry about is getting the road bike in shape to put miles on it. The rest of the details are going to come out at some point, and you'll get better clarity.


------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Quote Reply
Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
<<Yep, I did that race and I agree, it was for all practical purposes, draft legal. I believe it was 2 laps also? And it was fun, top athletes, and safe, and on TT bikes. (Yep, folks can get hurt at any type of bike race)
>>
ok, so this is the race where the team usa lady was essentially run over and her triathlon career ended. very curious as to your definition of 'safe'. I'm thinkin it means 'dave has a good time'. please enlighten us.
Quote Reply
Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
h2ofun wrote:
I did not say no one cared. How many sanctioned Aquathlon races are there in the US? How many sactioned Aquabike races in the US? I can tell you just about every race I do has an Aquabike race.
Not one has an aquathlon.

How many going to worlds are doing the Aquathlon? Why are they always begging for folks to do it on TeamUSA?

The race is supposed to be a run, swim, run race. Why are worlds now only swim, run races before they know whether it will be a wetsuit swim or not?

I have swam both Nationals Aquathon at Portland, and at worlds. There are very very few folks who do them. Just the data.

Will I see you at the Aquathlon at worlds in a few weeks? Anyone could have been on the team by just asking. I will be racing.

.

Every race put on by Redemption, based in San Antonio, has an aquathlon. It's not my fault if you aren't aware of the races out there. The amazing part is I haven't even had to go searching for these; I just bump into them.

No, you won't see me at aquathlon nationals. I'm not much for flying to races, though, so you won't see me at tri nationals either. I did go to aquathlon nationals when they were in Longmont, CO a few years ago, though, because I was in Boulder.

You are aware how badly you're flaming out on this thread, right?

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
Quote Reply
Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BDoughtie wrote:
Read the very 1st words of my post:

CURRENT ITU format

You've raced in an DL race WITH a TT bike with wave starts of only 5 mins apart per wave and the race had over 300 people.


There are CURRENT DL rules that I feel will very likely be set in stone, and I have a feeling there are rules they will be flexible with. Most dealing with the wave start times and/or the # of athletes on the course at a time. I don't think the governing body of the sport is going to make AG DL super elite competitive with only 2 athletes per country, but I also don't think they are going to be dumb enough to put 1000 athletes on the course at a time.


I hope you give it a go, since you seem to enjoy the Team USA experience so much, and you have previous DL experience. I think what you will see at these races is going to be a semi-realistic experience of how the pros do it. Lots of tactics, lots of looking around at others see how they look/feel, lots of "games" being played. I think it's going to be a fanfreakingtastic experience, that I think your getting worked up about for absolutely nothing. The biggest deal you need to worry about is getting the road bike in shape to put miles on it. The rest of the details are going to come out at some point, and you'll get better clarity.

And this is all I have been saying and I am hearing you say, is this right? The current DL rules will need to be modified for AG DL races. And once I see these modifications, from ITU and USAT, I and everyone else can
determine if this looks like fun, safe, affordable, can be competitive, etc. Just need to see these in writing first, which is why I am making no statements as to what will or will not be modified.
.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Afleet Alex] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Afleet Alex wrote:
<<Yep, I did that race and I agree, it was for all practical purposes, draft legal. I believe it was 2 laps also? And it was fun, top athletes, and safe, and on TT bikes. (Yep, folks can get hurt at any type of bike race)
>>
ok, so this is the race where the team usa lady was essentially run over and her triathlon career ended. very curious as to your definition of 'safe'. I'm thinkin it means 'dave has a good time'. please enlighten us.

Yep, Kathy crashed in that race from a pack of guys. Others crashed in the race from what I remember because folks ran across the street. Folks crashed in that race because they were going to fast around turns, etc. which
I saw first hand. So for a few of you folks who want to say crashes ONLY happen when "drafting" is involved is nuts.

A good friend of mine was in a crit race the other day. He went too fast into a corner, crashed by himself into a hay bail, broken ribs, punctured lung, etc. Will see if he can recover for IMLT.

I have seen tons of bike accidents in races over the years and none were caused by drafting. Kathy's, yep, but that would have happened under the new DL rules, depending on what they are. Had nothing to do with the bike
type, etc.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Toby] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yep, when one has the guts to stick up and ask questions, .......


.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
h2ofun wrote:
Yep, when one has the guts to stick up and ask questions, .......


.

The questions you're asking are in line with insisting on more proof that Earth is round. You're not advancing the discussion; you're holding it back.

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
Quote Reply
Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Your reasoning is a bit odd. You started out excited because you thought it was simply allowing people to draft on TT bikes. Now that you see it's not that your wanting answers. So what if they simply use road bikes but everything else stays same. Would you have issue?

Your viewpoint didn't seem bothered if they kept equipment but you could now draft freely. Now your all wondering what the format would be. Why the lose of excitement?

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BDoughtie wrote:
Your reasoning is a bit odd. You started out excited because you thought it was simply allowing people to draft on TT bikes. Now that you see it's not that your wanting answers. So what if they simply use road bikes but everything else stays same. Would you have issue?

Your viewpoint didn't seem bothered if they kept equipment but you could now draft freely. Now your all wondering what the format would be. Why the lose of excitement?

Nothing has changed. You just keep making so many assumptions and read what I have posted to make whatever point against me you want. Thanks fine.

I still would not bet what the final outcome is. I am still excited about the possibilities. But as things go more and more to different things than what Dan posted from the ITU
the first time, yep, it becomes less attractive for me, if it stays that direction. But I am making no conclusions until I see the rules, etc in writing. What is wrong with that?

As many have stated in the past, I just say get rid of the drafting rules since it is happening anyways. Whether this is the majority or minority opinion, I do not know.
But at only 39% for the poll saying no on drafting, this gives one set of opinions.

Unless you are an engineer, you will never understand how we think. Just feel sorry for my wife and kids.

Thanks for the data you are providing. Shall be interesting to see just how this all rolls out.

.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
No I'm not trying to make up any point. You went from pure excitement over the thought of being on you TT bike and drafting with 2000 other people to now, a "wait and see" mindset. I thought it was interesting you were fully on board with drafting on TT bikes, all the while saying you never work on bike handling skills, all the while already doing DL races. That's a very scary scenario in my book, and if you do it, how many others will behave in that same manner.

Which I said from the beginning, the ITU did not ever say they were allowing TT bikes. The way the original language was worded and answered to Dan's question (I thought Dan misworded his question on 1st try), there was never any mention that TT bikes would be allowed. There was a clarification error on both parties, for which Dan wanted more clarification and got it.

I understand your excitement would decline if they turn it into super competitive style of racing. That's the big issue I have with AG racing for DL. It's too cut throat, and AG'ers as a whole need a more compassionate set of rules than elites.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [MasskT] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I got into triathlon last year with absolutely ZERO cycling experience. I do sprints, because I like the speed, challenge of getting faster, and the training is easy to fit into my schedule. While I have the fortune of being a decently fast swimmer and runner, I'm not sure how comfortable I would be trying to ride in a "lead" pack. And I doubt anyone would want me there either. Which leads me to believe that it would be necessary to certify that athletes are capable of competing in a DL race. Obviously we are talking about Worlds, so that eliminates a lot of triathletes, who do the sport for fun, not to compete at Worlds. But for me, I now have to either decide to get my drafting card (in Canada you are required to present a drafting card to the RD to compete in a DL race, see below for how to get one for the province of Ontario) or I have to train for longer distances. And if I stick with sprints and want to make Worlds again, race choices will likely be severely limited to those that are DL and the fields will likely be very small (which they should be as argued in the other posts in this thread). It just creates another barrier to entry for the sport.

Triathlon Ontario: "All athletes wishing to race in a draft legal event must possess a “drafting card” prior to competing. Presentation of a drafting card to race directors ensures that the athlete is capable of racing in a drafting situation without being a risk to themselves or the other participants.

To get an Ontario Drafting Card applicants must
  • be 12 years of age or older
  • be screened by an NCCP certified Level 2 (Comp. Intro) Cycling Coach or a NCCP Triathlon Coach who has taken additional training in draft legal cycling and is included on Triathlon Ontario’s qualified list
  • Submit the application to the Triathlon Ontario office. Only complete applications will be accepted.
  • Triathlon Ontario will confirm that the athlete has met the requirements as set out for their category."

Quote Reply
Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
<<I have seen tons of bike accidents in races over the years and none were caused by drafting. Kathy's, yep, but that would have happened under the new DL rules, depending on what they are. Had nothing to do with the bike
type, etc.>> oh come on. you don't even know what the rules are yet (reference 95% of your posts on this thread) but are confident it would not have happened. yeesh man. please answer my question, define safe for us o enlightened one.
to your point above tho, under current itu dl rules a pack of men would have been nowhere near a pack of women and so, no, it would not have happened.
Quote Reply
Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I do not mind "cut throat" racing. I just have no desire to do something that I think would be dangerous for my skill set, ability, and age.
This is why I will never crit race, or mountain bike, or even run stand alone marathons anymore. No desire to have to quit this sport over
doing something dumb, for me.

Yes, if the ITU's first response held, I was more excited. It meant no bike changes. It meant that the bitching about drafting goes away since
what is happening now becomes legal. It meant normal 1 loop bike courses. Normal close wave starts. Etc.

But as the data has changed, for me at least, it might not be as interesting.

I would love to be a fly on the wall hearing how USAT is addressing this since it sounds like it was a big surprise.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I just have no desire to do something that I think would be dangerous for my skill set, ability, and age.
This is why I will never crit race, or mountain bike, or even run stand alone marathons anymore. No desire to have to quit this sport over
doing something dumb, for me.


______

But you've mentioned how many times you've done the California DL race that is a 3 lap, 15 mile bike loop that allows TT bikes? That bike course has atleast 6 turns (not counting any of the bending turns), 1 180* turn, and several tight corners. That by definition is a crit race + TT bikes and an field of over 300 people?

I guess I just don't follow your logic. You'll do this race, you'll gladly hope the race is TT bike allowed to draft, but now that more stringent safety rules will likely be administered, your having 2nd thoughts.


------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Quote Reply
Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
h2ofun wrote:
...I still would not bet what the final outcome is. I am still excited about the possibilities. But as things go more and more to different things than what Dan posted from the ITU
the first time, yep, it becomes less attractive for me, if it stays that direction. But I am making no conclusions until I see the rules, etc in writing. What is wrong with that...

Things haven't changed since the first response from the ITU. You read what you wanted to hear, that TT bikes would be allowed. That was never stated and would never have been the case. That initial misunderstanding on your part has clouded your view on the subject. As an engineer you shouldn't have made that assumption in the initial phase of this discussion.
Quote Reply
Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BDoughtie wrote:
I just have no desire to do something that I think would be dangerous for my skill set, ability, and age.
This is why I will never crit race, or mountain bike, or even run stand alone marathons anymore. No desire to have to quit this sport over
doing something dumb, for me.


______

But you've mentioned how many times you've done the California DL race that is a 3 lap, 15 mile bike loop that allows TT bikes? That bike course has atleast 6 turns (not counting any of the bending turns), 1 180* turn, and several tight corners. That by definition is a crit race + TT bikes and an field of over 300 people?

I guess I just don't follow your logic. You'll do this race, you'll gladly hope the race is TT bike allowed to draft, but now that more stringent safety rules will likely be administered, your having 2nd thoughts.

Again, why are you trying to say I said something when I did not? How did I ever say I have 2nd thoughts? I said depending on the rules, yep, my interest, meaning my abilities, etc would have me look at things.
Even if the ITU left things the way they first responded to Dan, I still would want the details I look forward to seeing.

So, you are trying to follow logic you are making up since it is not something I stated.

What is wrong with waiting to see what is in writing on what is going to really happen before making a judgment of good or bad for each person?

There are crit races and their are crit tri races. Big difference between the two, and you know the difference.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
"I guess I just don't follow your logic"

Trust me, you are not the first person to have this thought when discussing something with H20fun.



"Honestly, triathlon is a pussified version of duathlon on that final run."- Desert Dude

Quote Reply
Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Jctriguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Jctriguy wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
...I still would not bet what the final outcome is. I am still excited about the possibilities. But as things go more and more to different things than what Dan posted from the ITU
the first time, yep, it becomes less attractive for me, if it stays that direction. But I am making no conclusions until I see the rules, etc in writing. What is wrong with that...


Things haven't changed since the first response from the ITU. You read what you wanted to hear, that TT bikes would be allowed. That was never stated and would never have been the case. That initial misunderstanding on your part has clouded your view on the subject. As an engineer you shouldn't have made that assumption in the initial phase of this discussion.

You tell me that what Dan asked, got back from the ITU and then posted below did not basically say that their first response stated TT bikes would be okay.


"Road geometry frame"

well... i wouldn't necessarily assume that. here are answers i got back today from the ITU.

SLOWTWITCH: I’m assuming that you will be allowing road race bikes only, no tri bikes, in the first draft-legal age-group sprint worlds. Are you moving toward no clip-ons at all? And what other equipment rule changes will there be?

ITU: To date, there haven’t been any equipment rule changes. However, it is something the technical committee will take into consideration ahead of the rule implementation.

SLOWTWITCH: . When it comes to world championships for age-group racing, what kinds of format changes would you like to see beside draft-legal? Do you see pontoons and all of that? Or is it really just a change in bike rules and bike equipment?

ITU: At this point it's just a change in bike drafting rules.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

And this was in response from this post.

Really the only question to be answered is wil they actually keep races to a small capped field. But questions about equipment are already answered in the ITU rule book. Road geometry frame, "regular" shaped bike helmets only (no pointy end helmets), you'll have to serve penalties on course.

If they have lap out rule my guess is that less than 600 athletes will want to even try this. It really ramps up the competitiveness even more and it's already some quality athletes there.
------------------
@brooksdoughtie


And then back to Brooks

"but they also to me essentially said "go read the rulebook on draft legal portion of events"."

that's not how i read it. what i read is that they are, for age groupers, only changing the race from draft to no-draft. here is what i asked:

"I’m assuming that you will be allowing road race bikes only, no tri bikes, in the first draft-legal age-group sprint worlds."

i sent my questions out, it took a number of hours to get the answers back, so i don't think it was just an off-the-cuff response, i think it was a carefully crafted response. it would have been pretty easy to say, "yes, we are only going to allow road race bikes, no tri bikes." but they did not say that. still, to make sure, i sent one follow up question back to the ITU this morning:

"You’re allowing TT bikes in draft-legal racing for age-group racers? Is that what I’m reading?"

i don't have my answer yet, which is another indication, to me, that this is not just a conversation i'm having with one person at ITU, rather my questions must be getting routed around and then i get the answer. we'll see what the answer is.

i would also state that i think the process is going to need some looking into. what i got from the ITU was that this was in response to a resolution from an NF:

"The Mexican Federation put it forward in a Congress resolution. The Executive Board then asked the Mexican Federation to refer it to the Technical Committee. The Technical Committee then discussed it and presented to the Executive Board to change the sprint to draft legal and keep the Olympic distance non-drafting."

but when i talk to folks at USAT they don't remember this resolution. i therefore question whether this was a resolution at congress to the whole assembly of NFs, asking for a vote on this, and when you look at the wording i got back it doesn't exactly say that. there was a resolution. what was the resolution? was it, "let's change age group worlds to draft legal." or was it, "let's investigate the feasibility of DL racing for AGers." and then the results came back, and it was the executive board, rather than the entire group of federations, that voted this in.


i'm just speculating on the process. i don't know. but it would not surprise me to find that it was something kind of like what i'm describing. i would like to know exactly what the resolution said that the mexican federation put forward, and what the vote on that resolution was, and how that resolution got us from where we were to where we are.

mind, i don't mind having 2 formats in AG racing. but the answers i got from the ITU basically say, hey, we have an agenda, we are on a mission, the "ITU is foremost focused on getting events added to Major Games programs such as the inclusion of Mixed Relay into the 2020 Olympics. " what does concern me is when decisions are made not on the basis of what's best for AG racing, but how changes in AG racing can help us get events added to the olympic program. that sets off big red flashing lights. i hope the ITU will walk that back.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman


So, how can you ignore these email strings and what Dan got back and how the ITU changed over time, which could change again over time. Who knows.
.


Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Quote Reply
Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Dave,

Good luck with it. I hope you get the answers to your questions. I do hope that if you try it you get on your road bike and work on different bike handling skill sets. Doesn't take a lot, just things that can improve your and others safety.

With this new standard, I'm going to discuss with the USAT Coaching Commission to identify if an standard similar to Canada's is worth pursuing. I think having an webinar/session is a great step to atleast introduce athletes to what DL racing is, how it's handled, what to expect, what to do to prepare. This wont stop crashes from happening, but it can atleast make sure the athletes are held to some degree of responsibility (as well as the federation).

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Quote Reply
Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I haven't seen a thread like this since before the time that Frank Day retired from this place. Congratulations.

________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev
Quote Reply
Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
h2ofun wrote:
Jctriguy wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
...I still would not bet what the final outcome is. I am still excited about the possibilities. But as things go more and more to different things than what Dan posted from the ITU
the first time, yep, it becomes less attractive for me, if it stays that direction. But I am making no conclusions until I see the rules, etc in writing. What is wrong with that...


Things haven't changed since the first response from the ITU. You read what you wanted to hear, that TT bikes would be allowed. That was never stated and would never have been the case. That initial misunderstanding on your part has clouded your view on the subject. As an engineer you shouldn't have made that assumption in the initial phase of this discussion.

You tell me that what Dan asked, got back from the ITU and then posted below did not basically say that their first response stated TT bikes would be okay.


"Road geometry frame"

well... i wouldn't necessarily assume that. here are answers i got back today from the ITU.

SLOWTWITCH: I’m assuming that you will be allowing road race bikes only, no tri bikes, in the first draft-legal age-group sprint worlds. Are you moving toward no clip-ons at all? And what other equipment rule changes will there be?

ITU: To date, there haven’t been any equipment rule changes. However, it is something the technical committee will take into consideration ahead of the rule implementation.

SLOWTWITCH: . When it comes to world championships for age-group racing, what kinds of format changes would you like to see beside draft-legal? Do you see pontoons and all of that? Or is it really just a change in bike rules and bike equipment?

ITU: At this point it's just a change in bike drafting rules.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

And this was in response from this post.

Really the only question to be answered is wil they actually keep races to a small capped field. But questions about equipment are already answered in the ITU rule book. Road geometry frame, "regular" shaped bike helmets only (no pointy end helmets), you'll have to serve penalties on course.

If they have lap out rule my guess is that less than 600 athletes will want to even try this. It really ramps up the competitiveness even more and it's already some quality athletes there.
------------------
@brooksdoughtie


And then back to Brooks

"but they also to me essentially said "go read the rulebook on draft legal portion of events"."

that's not how i read it. what i read is that they are, for age groupers, only changing the race from draft to no-draft. here is what i asked:

"I’m assuming that you will be allowing road race bikes only, no tri bikes, in the first draft-legal age-group sprint worlds."

i sent my questions out, it took a number of hours to get the answers back, so i don't think it was just an off-the-cuff response, i think it was a carefully crafted response. it would have been pretty easy to say, "yes, we are only going to allow road race bikes, no tri bikes." but they did not say that. still, to make sure, i sent one follow up question back to the ITU this morning:

"You’re allowing TT bikes in draft-legal racing for age-group racers? Is that what I’m reading?"

i don't have my answer yet, which is another indication, to me, that this is not just a conversation i'm having with one person at ITU, rather my questions must be getting routed around and then i get the answer. we'll see what the answer is.

i would also state that i think the process is going to need some looking into. what i got from the ITU was that this was in response to a resolution from an NF:

"The Mexican Federation put it forward in a Congress resolution. The Executive Board then asked the Mexican Federation to refer it to the Technical Committee. The Technical Committee then discussed it and presented to the Executive Board to change the sprint to draft legal and keep the Olympic distance non-drafting."

but when i talk to folks at USAT they don't remember this resolution. i therefore question whether this was a resolution at congress to the whole assembly of NFs, asking for a vote on this, and when you look at the wording i got back it doesn't exactly say that. there was a resolution. what was the resolution? was it, "let's change age group worlds to draft legal." or was it, "let's investigate the feasibility of DL racing for AGers." and then the results came back, and it was the executive board, rather than the entire group of federations, that voted this in.


i'm just speculating on the process. i don't know. but it would not surprise me to find that it was something kind of like what i'm describing. i would like to know exactly what the resolution said that the mexican federation put forward, and what the vote on that resolution was, and how that resolution got us from where we were to where we are.

mind, i don't mind having 2 formats in AG racing. but the answers i got from the ITU basically say, hey, we have an agenda, we are on a mission, the "ITU is foremost focused on getting events added to Major Games programs such as the inclusion of Mixed Relay into the 2020 Olympics. " what does concern me is when decisions are made not on the basis of what's best for AG racing, but how changes in AG racing can help us get events added to the olympic program. that sets off big red flashing lights. i hope the ITU will walk that back.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman


So, how can you ignore these email strings and what Dan got back and how the ITU changed over time, which could change again over time. Who knows.
.

I'll quote that to continue your quest to make this an entirely useless thread.

Please find the quote that explicitly states that TT bikes are allowed in this new 2016 draft legal age group sprint race.
Quote Reply
Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BDoughtie wrote:
Dave,

Good luck with it. I hope you get the answers to your questions. I do hope that if you try it you get on your road bike and work on different bike handling skill sets. Doesn't take a lot, just things that can improve your and others safety.

With this new standard, I'm going to discuss with the USAT Coaching Commission to identify if an standard similar to Canada's is worth pursuing. I think having an webinar/session is a great step to atleast introduce athletes to what DL racing is, how it's handled, what to expect, what to do to prepare. This wont stop crashes from happening, but it can atleast make sure the athletes are held to some degree of responsibility (as well as the federation).

Yep, keep us updated on that status.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
Quote Reply
Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Jctriguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I just gave it to you.
Second time they changed their tone.

Guess they must be doing a WTC prize change like they just did with IMLP :O)
.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
Quote Reply
Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
h2ofun wrote:
I just gave it to you.
Second time they changed their tone.

Guess they must be doing a WTC prize change like they just did with IMLP :O)
.

Quote me the exact line that says TT bikes are allowed (full aero bars, etc)

What you've quoted starts with a question/assumption that road bikes are he only ones allowed. ITU responds to say no rule changes for equipment. They didn't specify if that was rule changes compared to drafting or non-draft. You assumed they meant non-draft. Others assumed (based on our knowledge of sanctioning and draft legal racing) that they would've meant draft legal rules.

ITU would never allow drafting with full TT bikes. 'Basically' and 'explicitly' are totally different things. Your 'data' from 3 worlds is worth almost nothing, as an engineer you should know that. You made some assumptions based on personal preference and not data, that was you error.

With that, I'm done here...
Quote Reply
Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Jctriguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Jctriguy wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
I just gave it to you.
Second time they changed their tone.

Guess they must be doing a WTC prize change like they just did with IMLP :O)
.


Quote me the exact line that says TT bikes are allowed (full aero bars, etc)

What you've quoted starts with a question/assumption that road bikes are he only ones allowed. ITU responds to say no rule changes for equipment. They didn't specify if that was rule changes compared to drafting or non-draft. You assumed they meant non-draft. Others assumed (based on our knowledge of sanctioning and draft legal racing) that they would've meant draft legal rules.

ITU would never allow drafting with full TT bikes. 'Basically' and 'explicitly' are totally different things. Your 'data' from 3 worlds is worth almost nothing, as an engineer you should know that. You made some assumptions based on personal preference and not data, that was you error.

With that, I'm done here...

Not saying you are wrong, just things can be read different ways. Nothing wrong with that.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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i guess i don't get the big deal. many (all?) of our national circuit races are draft legal so it is pretty much SOP here. they are only short though - sprints and olys. i really don't see a huge difference but then again i'm very FOP on the bike in those races. also here, you can't have mixed sex drafting - only M/M draft or F/F draft.

http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [kathy_caribe] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
i've known the mexico guys for a long time. they're great guys, they do a great job, i've been to a half dozen or so of their races. but something happened in mexico over the last decade. triathlon has really exploded and as far as i can tell of the 16 races on the circuito nacional only 3 are no-draft. veracruz, coming up, is draft legal, and there's 3,300 people. they just don't see the issue down there. it's not unsafe, apparently, the have lap courses, and the only thing you can't do is draft off someone of a different gender.

but, closer to you, merida, i believe that's still no-draft. it's 1,500 people. and of course there's, what, 4 ironman races, so, at least 7 no-draft races and at least 13 draft-ok races, the sport is booming, everybody's getting along.

but in all those draft-legal races, roads are closed. i just don't know how much of that we'll be able to get done in the U.S. i'm noodling going down to veracruz and racing that race. if not, i'll certainly go down sometime between now and the first part of next season. chiapas sounds fun. we'll see.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I guess my concern is non-draft triathlon going to end up like Mexico here in the US with draft legal becoming the default. I have no interest in draft legal at all and just want to make sure that non-draft triathlon remains viable especially for the shorter distances. Also has anything been said about duathlons in these discussions?



Joel
Quote Reply
Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
veracruz is a big one. i've done the half there and pretty much everyone from DF comes down and it is a huge event. but you're right - we do close the roads for Everything. :) i've not yet done a race here (sprint to IM) where the road wasn't closed. Even 5ks and 10ks (run) are on closed (but maybe you guys do that up there). and yeah, triathlon has absolutely EXPLODED in the last few years. it is absolutely amazing. we don't have real expos like i read about you guys do but we have folks selling their old stuff after the races and after race food will likely be papaya, banana (all locally grown), Electrolit and grandma's pibil. :)

if you're ever in the mood for a gorgeous (and now only by lottery) national circuit race, check out the Xel-Ha one in November. the one thing (i think this is just new this year) about the drafting races is that only short aerobars are allowed and they have to be joined. if not, you'll be penalized 30 sec the first race and then time increases through subsequent races but i think they might DQ after the 3rd or something. also the bars must joined. however, this is an easy fix with adjustable aerobars, some electrical tape, and a stick like object (say, a tire lever). :)

merida was brand new this year so i'm not sure about that and the price was outrageous. i almost did chiapas this year and if we didn't have 4 kids in school.... :) i'd love to go up around DF and do some of thiers - tequis or san gil - but i refuse to use a wetsuit, so there is that. also i considered huata or maz but i do prefer our waters.... it seems every year there is a new race popping up. i've done the oldest race on the peninsula (3 states) since it started, the last 4 years :) so yeah, in just a few years we've gone from having to leave the peninsula for anything other that WTC to being able to race around our own backyard. there is respect here too. i have had cars come up beside me and ask if i wanted a draft, i've never been buzzed by a vehicle - instead everyone gives a WIDE space,moving over into the next lane - i get thumbs up a lot - i have had people offer me gatorade twice on the road from their cars. or maybe i just look like an ancient lady suffering horribly and they're taking pity on me. :)

http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit


Quote Reply
Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [kathy_caribe] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
i've been to san gil, valle de bravo, huatulco and a few others. ixtapa, cabos. the mexicans do triathlon really well. i like the idea of xel-ha. only thing is i'm not that fond of that stretch of pavement. i've ridden from playa del carmen to xel-ha and back i'd much rather ride up on the plateau. if i was going to come down your way i'm more likely to do cozumel.

i'm intrigued by chiapas, always wanted to go to san cristobal, never have, but it's the weekend immediately following interbike and it would be pretty irresponsible for me to cut interbike short to travel to that race. but i might anyway ;-)

funny thing, in 1986 when i decided to call my company quintana roo i chose that name for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that nobody had every heard of it, the place was mysterious, nobody really knew what went on down there on that peninsula, strange name for a place in mexico, and now there are probably a half-dozen major triathlons either in that state of proximate to it.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [kathy_caribe] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Can a tri bike be used with stub aerobars or does it have to be a road bike?

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Post deleted by jaretj [ In reply to ]
Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [kathy_caribe] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Can you explain the format, rules and logistics of the draft legal triathlons in Mexico?

...or anyone else?
Quote Reply
Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Dan, haven't read thru the entire thread so this may have already been asked/answered, but any indication if this change is for tri only or will the sprint du wc also now be DL?
Quote Reply
Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [joelt] [ In reply to ]
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I'm pretty sure at least according to my source(s), that USAT duathlon sprint nationals next year are going to be DL but that the normal distance will not.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
I'm pretty sure at least according to my source(s), that USAT duathlon sprint nationals next year are going to be DL but that the normal distance will not.

Wow, that could be pretty cool. Makes running be important.


How would this impact the USAT ranking system?
.

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Last edited by: h2ofun: Jul 24, 14 11:09
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
desert dude wrote:
I'm pretty sure at least according to my source(s), that USAT duathlon sprint nationals next year are going to be DL but that the normal distance will not.

Any idea on when USAT might make that info public?
Quote Reply
Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
desert dude wrote:
I'm pretty sure at least according to my source(s), that USAT duathlon sprint nationals next year are going to be DL but that the normal distance will not.

I'm curious how certain your sources are. At duathlon nationals last weekend, I asked about the possibly of adding a draft-legal event during the town hall meeting. The response I got went more along the lines of "We've thought about it a bit, but haven't come to any decisions". Personally, I'd love to see it happen. It might bump up the level of competition for the sprint distance, which seems to have been much less deep than the standard distance the last few years.
Quote Reply
Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:
lots more to write about this but my first shot is up on the home page.

we oughta get in front of this and start deciding on the rules. for example:

1. can you draft off somebody not in your "race"?
2. should you be able to have any clip ons at all?
3. how deep should wheels be allowed to be?
4. are you obliged to retire if you're lapped?
5. should RDs be only allowed to have so many laps per race?
6. should there be any prerequisites to entering?
7. can you ride an MTB bike?
8. should we shit-can 1.3.073 entirely for draft legal?

plus other stuff i haven't yet considered, but that a number of you will.

Bringing the original discussion points back up. I don't want to touch 2, 3, 7, or 8 for now, but I think the others still bear a little thinking about. My perspective is just about how this is going to affect sprint distance.

6:
I don't think there's really enough demand for DL racing in most areas to support a category system like USAC does for road races. For the most part, I'd be okay with requiring people to sit through some kind of rules briefing/skills clinic type of event the day before (say, at packet pickup) unless they can prove they've already competed in a DL event. Once you start talking about elite/junior elite/development style races, that starts to become a whole other problem, and some kind of experience or category system might be the way to go.

5:
This seems like it depends a lot on the number of laps. For a single loop race, all you would need to do is start the fastest wave first, and give enough space between waves to minimize the likelihood of passing. For two loops, space the start so that the next wave starts about when the wave ahead is starting their second lap. I think that would minimize Past three loops, I think you need to start thinking pretty hard about a lap-out rule.

4: Again, this depends a lot on how the laps are set up. For very short bike loops, where the leaders of one wave lapping the trailers from the same wave, I don't think there's a good way around it. For longer loops, it might not matter. Once you start talking about having multiple waves on the course at once, this really becomes the same problem as #1. If you can enforce #1 easily and have some kind of right-of-way or blocking rule to require yielding to packs from other waves passing you, I don't think you need it. If you can't do that and #1 is important to you, I think you don't have much choice except to have the lap-out rule.

1: You know, I think this might be easier than it sounded like at first, at least for smaller races. Why not just use colored race numbers on the bikes? So long as the waves stay mostly separated, I would think the numbers would be adequate to differentiate and prevent this. If you had 4 or 5 waves, you might be able to get by with having draft marshals checking for drafting. They could give a drafting penalty if you're drafting someone not in your wave (red can draft red, green and draft green, red cannot draft green and vice versa).

Closed courses seem like they're the other big bone of contention, but most of the sprint races I do already have that, and have multiple loops. Of course there's tons of caveats to that. I live and race in urban Southern California, where getting permission for a longer course appears to be very difficult for most RDs. A good chunk of my racing experience is the local collegiate conference series, where most have 3 to 4 closed course bike loops for a 20kish ride (UCLA, UC Irvine, UCSD Tritonman, CSULB, and Stanford). And of course, none of them have been draft legal. On the other hand, I've also done a few USAC sanctioned road races on open roads in semi-rural areas, and there were never any problems even with 40+ rider packs.
Quote Reply
Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Having done the ITU AG sprint last year in London I can see that had that event been draft legal people may have been killed for sure.

It was wet and slippery there were tens of crashes. people crashed riding alone on straight parts of the roads. I saw two myself ahead of me. it was scary.

The elite races had several crashes too. What would the ITU do if its wet to keep it safe? people crashed but at least did not get run over by the competitors behind them causing a domino effect as there were gaps.

be interested to see what the ITU says about these scenarios?
Quote Reply
Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [thePharaoh] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
thePharaoh wrote:
Having done the ITU AG sprint last year in London I can see that had that event been draft legal people may have been killed for sure.

It was wet and slippery there were tens of crashes. people crashed riding alone on straight parts of the roads. I saw two myself ahead of me. it was scary.

The elite races had several crashes too. What would the ITU do if its wet to keep it safe? people crashed but at least did not get run over by the competitors behind them causing a domino effect as there were gaps.

be interested to see what the ITU says about these scenarios?

IMO, you are making a number of assumptions, which have been talked about here many times.

Yep, I have done worlds 3 times, going for 4. If the only thing they change is say drafting is now legal, nothing would have changed in the 3 races I did. There was drafting at those non legal draft races, and if you
said drafting was legal, there would not have been anymore than there already was.

So drafting or no drafting rules at ITU WC does not matter, they are always drafting legal races.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
h2ofun wrote:
thePharaoh wrote:
Having done the ITU AG sprint last year in London I can see that had that event been draft legal people may have been killed for sure.

It was wet and slippery there were tens of crashes. people crashed riding alone on straight parts of the roads. I saw two myself ahead of me. it was scary.

The elite races had several crashes too. What would the ITU do if its wet to keep it safe? people crashed but at least did not get run over by the competitors behind them causing a domino effect as there were gaps.

be interested to see what the ITU says about these scenarios?


IMO, you are making a number of assumptions, which have been talked about here many times.

Yep, I have done worlds 3 times, going for 4. If the only thing they change is say drafting is now legal, nothing would have changed in the 3 races I did. There was drafting at those non legal draft races, and if you
said drafting was legal, there would not have been anymore than there already was.

So drafting or no drafting rules at ITU WC does not matter, they are always drafting legal races.

.

I am not assuming anything. You are assuming that everyone drafts I don't and I know many who would not cheat even if no one was looking a great number of AG athletes at least try to keep a legal distance. So no its nothing like draft legal now. even with some cheats.

Now if the conditions in london where road bikes only and drafting was allowed going by the elite drafting rules there would have been massive pileups. I avoided colliding with the two people who crashed in front of me because I left a legal distance and due to the conditions was not riding on aerobars at the time. Those two riders however would have been with me in a pack as existed the swim together had this been a draft legal event them crashing would have either brought me down and those with me or I would have run them over.

I think drafting is more dangerous especially in and/or windy conditions. it will remain to be seen but judging by what I see happening to elite cyclists and triathletes in wet conditions I cringe at what AG triathletes may do. especially those where the fitness exceeds bike handling ability and experience.
Quote Reply
Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Steve-oH!] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Steve-oH! wrote:
Can you explain the format, rules and logistics of the draft legal triathlons in Mexico?

...or anyone else?

geez, i dunno - it seems to me like all others except sometimes you draft and sometimes you don't - like a training ride but racing. they just brought in new rules earlier this year but basically you have to make your aerobars (if you use a tri bike) so that they don't extend past the imaginary line made by your handlebars and they have to be joined. same sex drafting only (but my first one i drafted off males and my most recent one i slingshot off males). no being in the aerobars in a pack - so only the first person can be in aerobars and those behind them have to be on hoods.

logistics i'm not sure what you're looking for there. can you ask in a different way?

http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit


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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
Can a tri bike be used with stub aerobars or does it have to be a road bike?

.

both are used. you can also "adapt" your aerobars to the rules and keep "adapting" until the judges okay it (your bike goes before judges before transition)

http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit


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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [kathy_caribe] [ In reply to ]
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kathy_caribe wrote:
Steve-oH! wrote:
Can you explain the format, rules and logistics of the draft legal triathlons in Mexico?

...or anyone else?


geez, i dunno - it seems to me like all others except sometimes you draft and sometimes you don't - like a training ride but racing. they just brought in new rules earlier this year but basically you have to make your aerobars (if you use a tri bike) so that they don't extend past the imaginary line made by your handlebars and they have to be joined. same sex drafting only (but my first one i drafted off males and my most recent one i slingshot off males). no being in the aerobars in a pack - so only the first person can be in aerobars and those behind them have to be on hoods.

logistics i'm not sure what you're looking for there. can you ask in a different way?

Yep, so simple of a change, just modify the aerobars.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [kathy_caribe] [ In reply to ]
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kathy_caribe wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Can a tri bike be used with stub aerobars or does it have to be a road bike?

.


both are used. you can also "adapt" your aerobars to the rules and keep "adapting" until the judges okay it (your bike goes before judges before transition)

So question. We know today that a TT bike with aerobars has shifters at the end and would not meet these rules. We know today that a road bike has the shifters on the hoods/brakes.

So, for a road bike, adding stub aerobars is real easy, no change for shifting.

So, have you seen a TT bike modified with stub aerobars? If so, how do they shift?

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [thePharaoh] [ In reply to ]
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We just have different opinions. Nothing wrong with that.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
h2ofun wrote:
kathy_caribe wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Can a tri bike be used with stub aerobars or does it have to be a road bike?

.


both are used. you can also "adapt" your aerobars to the rules and keep "adapting" until the judges okay it (your bike goes before judges before transition)


So question. We know today that a TT bike with aerobars has shifters at the end and would not meet these rules. We know today that a road bike has the shifters on the hoods/brakes.

So, for a road bike, adding stub aerobars is real easy, no change for shifting.

So, have you seen a TT bike modified with stub aerobars? If so, how do they shift?

.

Do the rules in Mexico have anything to do with USAT?

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Toby] [ In reply to ]
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Would not make sense that other NF rules are USAT rules. Could be some the same but would be shocked if all the same. We cannot even get our races in the US to use the same rules.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
h2ofun wrote:
kathy_caribe wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Can a tri bike be used with stub aerobars or does it have to be a road bike?

.


both are used. you can also "adapt" your aerobars to the rules and keep "adapting" until the judges okay it (your bike goes before judges before transition)


So question. We know today that a TT bike with aerobars has shifters at the end and would not meet these rules. We know today that a road bike has the shifters on the hoods/brakes.

So, for a road bike, adding stub aerobars is real easy, no change for shifting.

So, have you seen a TT bike modified with stub aerobars? If so, how do they shift?

.


i modified mine with aerobars with shifters at teh ends - just pulled the long straight part back so the shifter was even with the imaginary line. i might have a picture. ok, got pictures. just a sec..







in the top foto they weren't far back enough but you can see what we were doing i think? so all i then needed to do was to join them and i did that with a bike lever covered with black electrical tape and taped to the bars. again the aerobar rule is brand new this year and brought in mid season - caused all kinds of troubles but i guess i got off easy? otherwise i'd just ride my road bike (but it has only one gear due to no derailer). again, in all previous years rules were all the same except for the imaginary line one and IMO the triathlons were just normal - sometimes you drafted and sometimes you didn't. really not a big deal.

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https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit


Last edited by: kathy_caribe: Jul 26, 14 5:59
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [kathy_caribe] [ In reply to ]
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Dave's not going to like me saying this, but based on CURRENT VERSION OF ITU DRAFT LEGAL RULES, as in, not the hypothetical ones that may or may not exist only in Dave's mind, this sort of setup wouldn't fly. For that, you need to have drop bars and you may not have shifters on the end. Also, the bridge between aerobars has to be "factory equipment" or something like that, trying to get away from when guys used to use electrical tape to hold a Popsicle stick on there.
Now the debate can be about whether this sort of setup should be allowed in a DL race, which for me the answer is no because you don't have nearly the same control on your bullhorns as you would on proper hoods or drops (see Dan's criticisms of Chicago about athletes not being in the drops), and while I understand downtube and stem shifters do still exist and are legal, you want your shifters and brakes together and near your hands in a group whenever possible. I've shown up to a group ride on my TT bike once. I survived, and yes you can ride in a group with one, but you can't ride nearly as aggressively as you can on a road bike while still being safe about it. If your solution then is "don't ride so aggressively," then I suggest you switch activities to something that's not inherently a competition.

IG: idking90
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [iank] [ In reply to ]
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iank wrote:
Dave's not going to like me saying this, but based on CURRENT VERSION OF ITU DRAFT LEGAL RULES, as in, not the hypothetical ones that may or may not exist only in Dave's mind, this sort of setup wouldn't fly. For that, you need to have drop bars and you may not have shifters on the end. Also, the bridge between aerobars has to be "factory equipment" or something like that, trying to get away from when guys used to use electrical tape to hold a Popsicle stick on there.
Now the debate can be about whether this sort of setup should be allowed in a DL race, which for me the answer is no because you don't have nearly the same control on your bullhorns as you would on proper hoods or drops (see Dan's criticisms of Chicago about athletes not being in the drops), and while I understand downtube and stem shifters do still exist and are legal, you want your shifters and brakes together and near your hands in a group whenever possible. I've shown up to a group ride on my TT bike once. I survived, and yes you can ride in a group with one, but you can't ride nearly as aggressively as you can on a road bike while still being safe about it. If your solution then is "don't ride so aggressively," then I suggest you switch activities to something that's not inherently a competition.

well, i really don't care. i was asked to explain how it works here and i did. you can like it or not and judge me to change activities but honestly, you can also just fuck off.

also you might have missed the point that we are not supposed to be on the aerobars when drafting but then again, quite honestly, fuck off.

http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit


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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [kathy_caribe] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not saying you change activities but from a broader perspective, I'm saying that if the solution to a set of equipment rules for a race is "don't ride aggressively" then there's a problem. I absolutely understand that it can work riding a modified TT setup, just that it's far from optimal.

IG: idking90
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [kathy_caribe] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
kathy_caribe wrote:
iank wrote:
Dave's not going to like me saying this, but based on CURRENT VERSION OF ITU DRAFT LEGAL RULES, as in, not the hypothetical ones that may or may not exist only in Dave's mind, this sort of setup wouldn't fly. For that, you need to have drop bars and you may not have shifters on the end. Also, the bridge between aerobars has to be "factory equipment" or something like that, trying to get away from when guys used to use electrical tape to hold a Popsicle stick on there.
Now the debate can be about whether this sort of setup should be allowed in a DL race, which for me the answer is no because you don't have nearly the same control on your bullhorns as you would on proper hoods or drops (see Dan's criticisms of Chicago about athletes not being in the drops), and while I understand downtube and stem shifters do still exist and are legal, you want your shifters and brakes together and near your hands in a group whenever possible. I've shown up to a group ride on my TT bike once. I survived, and yes you can ride in a group with one, but you can't ride nearly as aggressively as you can on a road bike while still being safe about it. If your solution then is "don't ride so aggressively," then I suggest you switch activities to something that's not inherently a competition.


well, i really don't care. i was asked to explain how it works here and i did. you can like it or not and judge me to change activities but honestly, you can also just fuck off.

also you might have missed the point that we are not supposed to be on the aerobars when drafting but then again, quite honestly, fuck off.

Love it! I just continue to not understand why some folks have to attack personally just because everyone does not bow down to their opinion of what is "right". I have learned that these folks really by the definition
are just bullies. I have learned so much more in life to be open to others opinions and engaging in a clean debate as to what they are thinking, why, and attempting to get data to support their position.
So so few can do this, but it is always so much fun to stand up to bullies. They get SO upset when they cannot get their way.

Loved your pictures. Thanks for showing, and proving, there are places doing DL races with AGers, and thousands, and are doing it safely with various type of bike setups. And since the field is thousands, seems the events
are not hurting with the 100% I will never enter a AG drafting race without the perfect draft rules they want. :o) I still think the poll results on ST showing there is not even a clear majority who say they would not do any type of DL race show just because some are very vocal on why AG DL drafting will either not work, or only work if it is their set of rules, is very telling.

Thanks again for posting the pictures. Will just need to see what the official ITU rules will be, and for us in the US, what the USAT response will be.

It is going to be interesting to see how much drafting there will be at the Edmonton WC race. I expect tons like before. Hopefully will get a chance to talk with various USAT folks and get their take on where we are going.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [iank] [ In reply to ]
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iank wrote:
I'm not saying you change activities but from a broader perspective, I'm saying that if the solution to a set of equipment rules for a race is "don't ride aggressively" then there's a problem. I absolutely understand that it can work riding a modified TT setup, just that it's far from optimal.


oh! well is my face red! (well not really, but i am sorry). I thought you were one of the "slow folks dilute our sport" folks. so sorry to have misunderstood you.

also it is entirely possible that i was under the effects of lack of coffee. my coffee maker is in bed watching the TdF TT so i had to make it myself! The INHUMANITY of it all! good news is that i am now properly drugged. :)

http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
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Last edited by: kathy_caribe: Jul 26, 14 6:40
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Dave, I was giving you exactly what you wanted. I outlined why, provided ITU doesn't make any changes to equipment for DL racing, as their PR team has said, that setup wouldn't be allowed. I acknowledge that yes, there's still some unknown, and that the purpose of this thread was to be a discussion on what the rules ought to be, which is where I voiced my opinion on why a modified TT setup is not ideal. I will give you that yes, you can absolutely ride a TT bike in a group reasonably safely, even without moving the bars back so they don't extend past the brake levers, and I said so in my post. I will also say that it's far from optimal, as you don't have nearly the control of your bike riding on bullhorns than you do in drops or even hoods.
Again, I will concede that you can absolutely ride this setup in a group and do so safely, but you cannot ride as safely with the same level of aggression that you can on a road bike. You can't corner as hard, moving up through a group is more dangerous, and reaction times can be slower. I say this from my own personal experience, having done the exact same group ride on my TT bike a few times versus my road bike that I do it on 90% of the time. So yes, you can ride your TT bike in a group, but the way to do so safely means you have to ride a bit more timid. To me, if that's your solution for a race, that you should just have to ride less aggressive, that's not very reasonable. It's a race, as in, you should be going hard, or at least you shouldn't have equipment rules that cause mental reservations about going hard.
I will happily admit, you're right, I won't do a race where it's an equipment free-for-all with folks allowed to ride in groups, because to me, that is not a risk I am willing to take. I don't think that makes me any more narrow-minded than your "I won't race if it's a multi loop crit format" that you've repeatedly said.

IG: idking90
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [kathy_caribe] [ In reply to ]
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No no not at all. I realize that just because somebody is slower doesn't mean they're not working as hard or being as aggressive on the bike, etc. I understand that some are comfortable enough with just laying off the gas a bit, such as when athletes choose not to wear a wetsuit when it's just below the cutoff because it's still too warm, or they choose to ride a road bike on a "hilly" course where a TT bike would still be faster, etc...but I am not in favor of having rules that effectively necessitate that. Again, I understand that modified TT setups can work in a group, but it's just not something I think is the best option because it almost requires a mellowing-out of racing tactics and strategy.

IG: idking90
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [iank] [ In reply to ]
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iank wrote:
Dave, I was giving you exactly what you wanted. I outlined why, provided ITU doesn't make any changes to equipment for DL racing, as their PR team has said, that setup wouldn't be allowed. I acknowledge that yes, there's still some unknown, and that the purpose of this thread was to be a discussion on what the rules ought to be, which is where I voiced my opinion on why a modified TT setup is not ideal. I will give you that yes, you can absolutely ride a TT bike in a group reasonably safely, even without moving the bars back so they don't extend past the brake levers, and I said so in my post. I will also say that it's far from optimal, as you don't have nearly the control of your bike riding on bullhorns than you do in drops or even hoods.
Again, I will concede that you can absolutely ride this setup in a group and do so safely, but you cannot ride as safely with the same level of aggression that you can on a road bike. You can't corner as hard, moving up through a group is more dangerous, and reaction times can be slower. I say this from my own personal experience, having done the exact same group ride on my TT bike a few times versus my road bike that I do it on 90% of the time. So yes, you can ride your TT bike in a group, but the way to do so safely means you have to ride a bit more timid. To me, if that's your solution for a race, that you should just have to ride less aggressive, that's not very reasonable. It's a race, as in, you should be going hard, or at least you shouldn't have equipment rules that cause mental reservations about going hard.
I will happily admit, you're right, I won't do a race where it's an equipment free-for-all with folks allowed to ride in groups, because to me, that is not a risk I am willing to take. I don't think that makes me any more narrow-minded than your "I won't race if it's a multi loop crit format" that you've repeatedly said.

I totally agree with you. I guess one difference is I see these threads as might, could be, who knows, vs ought.

Until they see the parameters of the course, I just do not see how we get to ought. Now, IMO, if the course is the same as a elite course, meaning many loops, hard hurts, etc., then we are on the same page, and I would not be racing. If the course is what they have in mexico, let alone the standard AG US course, then am not sure. But until I see these details, just going to wait and see.

Yep, you got me on the I wont race a crit format. :o( I do slip some times.

.

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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More AG draft legal will be interesting, but it could be a HUGE step backward if it means that more of the world's athletes will be riding and racing under foolish and fundamentally harmful UCI rules. Having raced in a few draft legal AG triathlons, I think (both as a racer and manufacturer) that:

- AG draft legal racing should absolutely allow shortie aerobars. Even aerobars up to 2.5 cm longer than shortie aerobars (if the bars are connected by a bridge there would be zero additional hazard).

- Deep wheels should be allowed, up to 10 cm in rim depth.

- Yes, one should be allowed to ride a MTB. They're safe enough, they're kinda slow and both brakes are within instant reach. And you should be allowed to race CX, MCX, and/or gravel bikes too.

- Yes, we absolutely should toss the foolish 1.3.073 rules, the draft legal position rules should be the same reasonable ones as allowed by current USAT rules. And we should toss any requirement for riders to have UCI road compliant bikes, bike rules (except handlebar rules) should be the same ones as currently used by the USAT.

These steps are very important as they will have very significant environmental implications, and they will have HUGE grassroots participation implications (for example, forcing beginners or riders in less wealthy countries to choose between using limited funds to buy new bikes or not being able to participate).

Greg @ dsw

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [iank] [ In reply to ]
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iank wrote:
No no not at all. I realize that just because somebody is slower doesn't mean they're not working as hard or being as aggressive on the bike, etc. I understand that some are comfortable enough with just laying off the gas a bit, such as when athletes choose not to wear a wetsuit when it's just below the cutoff because it's still too warm, or they choose to ride a road bike on a "hilly" course where a TT bike would still be faster, etc...but I am not in favor of having rules that effectively necessitate that. Again, I understand that modified TT setups can work in a group, but it's just not something I think is the best option because it almost requires a mellowing-out of racing tactics and strategy.

ah! gotcha. this is the way it has always been here so it is only when WTC comes to town that things change. some races are doing not drafting also but to toot my own horn, even though i'm an old lady (54) i still came in 2nd overall (female) in a race earlier this year so i think i can be agressive. the 1st place was an 18yo. :)

again, totally get having change bestowed on you-we had that this year when they imposed the imaginary line rule but i find that i personally can be agressive enough to get 2nd overall, albeit in a country where the sport is new and in a state where the oldest triathlon is 4 years old (unless Xel-Ha has been going longer, but maybe only 5 years?). obviously ymmv.

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https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit


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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Sweeney] [ In reply to ]
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Sweeney wrote:
If ''you race'' is you wave or age group, I'd say draft whoever you want. If the second place guy in AG40-45 doesn't catch the passing wave, I say tell him to swim faster. You have to make the rules enforceable.
I am really late to this thread so maybe someone already pointed out the flaw in the statement above, but for the sake of argument...
What if a couple of hard-chargers in the 40-45AG realize they are fast enough on the swim and bike to carry a good lead onto the run if they work together. They execute a perfect swim and work together on the bike to pull away from the rest of the field. Then the 30-35 male peleton passes the 40-45 chase group and the older/slower guys jump on the back and get pulled back to the front two guys. They executed a good plan perfectly, but people who aren't in their race ruined it for them. I guess they should swim faster too?

Powertap / Cycleops / Saris
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Tulkas] [ In reply to ]
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Tulkas wrote:
Sweeney wrote:
If ''you race'' is you wave or age group, I'd say draft whoever you want. If the second place guy in AG40-45 doesn't catch the passing wave, I say tell him to swim faster. You have to make the rules enforceable.

I am really late to this thread so maybe someone already pointed out the flaw in the statement above, but for the sake of argument...
What if a couple of hard-chargers in the 40-45AG realize they are fast enough on the swim and bike to carry a good lead onto the run if they work together. They execute a perfect swim and work together on the bike to pull away from the rest of the field. Then the 30-35 male peleton passes the 40-45 chase group and the older/slower guys jump on the back and get pulled back to the front two guys. They executed a good plan perfectly, but people who aren't in their race ruined it for them. I guess they should swim faster too?

Yep

It might be a different twist. For folks who like it , do it, if not, skip it. Just like there are so many different races of parts of swim and or bike and or run. Do the combos you like, and ignore the ones you do not like Easy.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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It's why I worry AG DL is going to be sorta a "hybrid". Sorta like the race you have done in Cali. Race the 3 laps and if you get to draft on faster group 1 lap ahead so be it. So I think the "fairness" is going to have to be accepted as it is what it is.

There is a DL race here in NC that I'm kinda helping with race prep logistics RD has already said he is thinking of not doing lap out rule for AGers. But this will be 1 wave race, 75 field limit. He doesn't want to "scare" athletes who want to try it who may not have the swim ability to not get lapped out.

Kinda dumb to have AGers compete in a race that they can't finish because of an elite style of racing speed laps them out. This isn't soft cutoffs like at IM events,

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
It's why I worry AG DL is going to be sorta a "hybrid". Sorta like the race you have done in Cali. Race the 3 laps and if you get to draft on faster group 1 lap ahead so be it. So I think the "fairness" is going to have to be accepted as it is what it is.

There is a DL race here in NC that I'm kinda helping with race prep logistics RD has already said he is thinking of not doing lap out rule for AGers. But this will be 1 wave race, 75 field limit. He doesn't want to "scare" athletes who want to try it who may not have the swim ability to not get lapped out.

Kinda dumb to have AGers compete in a race that they can't finish because of an elite style of racing speed laps them out. This isn't soft cutoffs like at IM events,

Since the ITU has not stated what the rules, etc are, I have nothing to worry about, yet. I have a hard time believing they are going to just toss all the Sprint folks, and make a much smaller field with full DL rules
as you suggest. But you might be right, but none of us know yet.

That RD is right on the money. They have to have enough customers. Have to make a profit.

Now if the ST poll had said like 80% said no to draft races, I would be saying I guess I am out to lunch. But since it is not close to that, it might be possible the majority want to just get rid of the drafting rules
we have today, and everything else might be okay, including full TT bikes. That is how the 300 person race I have done works and has had no issues. Could they go larger and be safe? No idea.

I have yet to see anyone gave data on a race, as an example that was the DL I show above that had terrible accidents and then eliminated that format. Can you or anyone else? Just trying to get facts on what folks have done
and if one really was unsafe, lets talk about it with facts, not what might have happened.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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How many races have TT bikes and drafting? The only event in US sounds like the Cali race you do and sounds like Mexican races are DL + TT bikes. Not a very large sample size is it?

I'm sure there are other races in world that are DL + TT but not many.

The sport of cycling doest allow aero bar bikes in mass starts.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
How many races have TT bikes and drafting? The only event in US sounds like the Cali race you do and sounds like Mexican races are DL + TT bikes. Not a very large sample size is it?

I'm sure there are other races in world that are DL + TT but not many.

The sport of cycling doest allow aero bar bikes in mass starts.

So, how can so many then say without any facts, example, etc. that they KNOW all the negative issues? We do have example of races, real races, that have not had issues, right? Yes we can talk around them,
but these are facts, and they are having no issues. One does not care about the bike type. The others was have some data, but not 100%.

Your sport of cycling does not allow aero bars. The new ITU DL AG sport we still have no idea. It is NOT your sport, it is a NEW sport. What the rules are will be communicated from ITU and USAT when they know.
This is why it seems they should have waited for any announcement, IMO, until they had more data. Then we would not have wasted pages and pages of opinions on things we have no idea. Once we have the facts,
then we can say but, .....

Again, this is a triathlon proposal, NOT a cycling proposal. There are cycling rules. There are Elite DL triathlon rules. What we have yet to see is the proposed ITU DL AG triathlon rules.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Dave,

Good on you, keep up the good fight for pushing TT bikes in 3k DL events. I hope they get it so you can do the events. You don't think that's an safety issue and are using an absolutely incredible small sample size to "prove" your point. I'll just agree to disagree, nothing more needs to be said.

We get where you stand, people get where I stand. Your all about having it any which way, and if they decide DL+ TT bikes, fair enough. I'll hope/pray that never is the case because of safety issues that I certainly see can happen.

Good day sir. No more from me.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
Dave,

Good on you, keep up the good fight for pushing TT bikes in 3k DL events. I hope they get it so you can do the events. You don't think that's an safety issue and are using an absolutely incredible small sample size to "prove" your point. I'll just agree to disagree, nothing more needs to be said.

We get where you stand, people get where I stand. Your all about having it any which way, and if they decide DL+ TT bikes, fair enough. I'll hope/pray that never is the case because of safety issues that I certainly see can happen.

Good day sir. No more from me.

I am NOT pushing anything. I do agree, depending on the format, maybe you and I do agree there might be safety issues. But until they tell us what they are going to do, I am assuming they are smart folks
and would not propose something that is unsafe. Why do you keep trying to say I know what is right, or how it should be, etc? I no way have enough experience to say anything. But it just seems a good starting place
is to see what data we have as to what has happened so far, and what have they been doing. Just data, no conclusions.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
BDoughtie wrote:
How many races have TT bikes and drafting? The only event in US sounds like the Cali race you do and sounds like Mexican races are DL + TT bikes. Not a very large sample size is it?

I'm sure there are other races in world that are DL + TT but not many.

The sport of cycling doest allow aero bar bikes in mass starts.


So, how can so many then say without any facts, example, etc. that they KNOW all the negative issues? We do have example of races, real races, that have not had issues, right? Yes we can talk around them,
but these are facts, and they are having no issues. One does not care about the bike type. The others was have some data, but not 100%.

Your sport of cycling does not allow aero bars. The new ITU DL AG sport we still have no idea. It is NOT your sport, it is a NEW sport. What the rules are will be communicated from ITU and USAT when they know.
This is why it seems they should have waited for any announcement, IMO, until they had more data. Then we would not have wasted pages and pages of opinions on things we have no idea. Once we have the facts,
then we can say but, .....

Again, this is a triathlon proposal, NOT a cycling proposal. There are cycling rules. There are Elite DL triathlon rules. What we have yet to see is the proposed ITU DL AG triathlon rules.

.


As has been made clear to you about 600 times...there is no such thing as "elite DL rules" for ITU. There are DL rules and non-draft rules. Statements from the ITU have explicitly clarified that at this moment, they do not intend to modify equipment rules for DL races for age groupers, meaning that AG DL races will be run by the existing ITU DL rules.
You're right. This isn't a cycling proposal, but if you're an engineer as you say you are and why we should feel bad for your family, I would think you'd be familiar with the idea of best practices. We do have a chance here to design something that is not completely brand-new in that it bears similarities to existing events, most notably mass-start amateur cycling events. Those events have been around for a LOOOOONG time, so their practices may not be the best theoretical possibility, but they are certainly a standard worth examining. We do not have to adopt every single facet of mass-start cycling, as not all of it makes sense, but it behooves us to look at existing, similar rule sets as a model, particularly when we start to talk about insuring these events.
I will concede to you that there's not a whole lot of data on people riding in large groups on TT bikes. The reason for that is because it doesn't happen much. I would wager that there is not a lot of data about the dangers of driving on the opposite side of the road, either. Sure, there are examples of people who have done it without issue, but that does not make it a safe or best practice.

Additionally, if we can't talk about what ought to be until we "know more specifics," then what are you doing here? That's pretty much the purpose of this thread, so if you don't want to talk about that, and you just continue to shoot down anybody who tries to discuss what those rules ought to be by calling them narrow-minded and a bully (which is narrow-minded, bullying behavior itself), I sincerely wonder what purpose you're trying to accomplish.

IG: idking90
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [iank] [ In reply to ]
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You might feel this thread is "ought" to be. I feel this thread is talking about what we know or do not know. What data from existing races exist. What issues might come up from different
possibilities.

So, I am only aware of one set of rules of the ITU, and that is for DL racing which I assume you call those folks elites?

so if you can point me to a set of rules on the ITU website that says ITU AG DL rules, that I guess we will all be on the same page.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [iank] [ In reply to ]
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I would think you'd be familiar with the idea of best practices.


Sums it up perfectly, and this statement is why I think DL races with TT will be a no-no. Adding to the fact that currently ITU already has rules against TT bikes in DL format. So the ITU has to make NEW rules to allow it. So the current rules are as follows for DL events:

No TT bikes. ETA: Let's not forget that the ITU CLARIFIED and ACKNOWLEDGED NO TT BIKES to Dan this week. Why some seem to want to gloss over that is beyond me, except to just argue to argue to this point. Which I apologize to the site for getting drawn in to the degree that I've allowed myself. H20, I get it, you *think* the rules haven't been clarified, but they have. You just don't want to acknowledge that. And that's fine, but your stick is getting old now. It's been shown the ITU rulebook and how it pertains to either non-draft or DL. There are no "AG" rules, and their are no "elite" rules. It's just DL or non-draft. How/why you fail to comprehend that, no one will know, other than you just want to argue for the sake of arguing.

That's the rules, those rules can be changed but the fact of the matter is, until the changes are made, their are ZERO TT bikes going to be allowed. So what we need to do is accept that, more than wonder/hope/think/assume TT bikes will be allowed that some people want to do.


------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: BDoughtie: Jul 26, 14 11:17
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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I'm going to guess you never read the first post:
Quote:
lots more to write about this but my first shot is up on the home page.

we oughta get in front of this and start deciding on the rules. for example:

1. can you draft off somebody not in your "race"?
2. should you be able to have any clip ons at all?
3. how deep should wheels be allowed to be?
4. are you obliged to retire if you're lapped?
5. should RDs be only allowed to have so many laps per race?
6. should there be any prerequisites to entering?
7. can you ride an MTB bike?
8. should we shit-can 1.3.073 entirely for draft legal?

plus other stuff i haven't yet considered, but that a number of you will.


To me, that's awfully clear that this was intended to be a discussion of what the rules should be, and what the majority of the people here have been discussing, except for you. Please, if you re-read this post and come up with a major theme of it out of it other than "what should we make the rules for Age Group Draft Legal races," I am VERY curious what your thought process is there. I cannot, for the life of me, backwards engineer a thought process to draw any other conclusion about the purpose of that post and by extension, this thread.
Additionally, the only rules specific to Elites for ITU are uniform requirements. Otherwise, there is one set of Competition Rules. In case you can't find them:
www.triathlon.org/uploads/docs/itusport_competition-rules_19022014v2-highlighted.pdf
There are sections on bicycle conduct for both draft-legal and draft-illegal events, but with no mention of who is racing. The equipment rules reference UCI Road Race, UCI Time Trial, and UCI MTB rules for draft-legal, draft-illegal, and winter/cross triathlon, respectively. The only mentions whatsoever of AG-specific rules in the entire set of competition rules are penalty assessment, wetsuit temperatures, the table discussing what races are draft-legal/draft-illegal (which obviously WILL have to change), and whether you have to wear shoes in winter triathlon.

IG: idking90
Last edited by: iank: Jul 26, 14 11:21
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