But tell me again the splits of the guy who you said would beat you 1/4th from the finish line.

Where would he be coming out of the swim compared to 2/3rd who caught you at T2?

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

So why did they give Dan one set of inputs, then a different set?

When I see on the ITU website, and USAT website exactly what is going on, then I will believe it. Right now too many unanswered questions.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Luck is a factor in all sorts of racing. Why is it suddenly a deal-breaker here?

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The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

Any chance you can stop polluting the thread with the exact same quote every post??? Would be much appreciated.

Now, to totally blow your mind, consider for a second an alternate reason for your confusion. Please try to follow me.

The first response from ITU didn't explicitly say yes or no to road bikes. That means two things were possible, the ITU thought that people (Dan) would assume typical draft legal rules or people would assume they meant standard non-draft rules. You have assumed they meant non-draft rules. Many others assumed they meant draft legal rules. For those of us who assumed draft legal rules, we don't see two different answers from ITU, we see one with minimal info and another with more explicit info. You assumed they meant non-draft rules and see a change in their position.

Dan specifically talked about road bikes only and no TT bikes allowed. The ITU response likely understood that dan would know that a drafting race would use drafting rules and they responded to say that they don't see any specific rule adaptations for age group draft legal.

Luck within your race, not from an outside group. The result of the open water swim race shouldn't be influenced by someone getting a draft or held up by the rowing events.

Instant "friend" is fine and I totally get that is part of the strategy in DL racing. I'm more worried about *every* top AG'er having a pacing buddy lined up for *every* big race. Pretty sure that WILL happen, and it doesn't seem like a great form of racing to me. It's a really different form of racing to even elite DL racing.

Dan replied that ITU CLARIFIED it's statement on the equipment ruling.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

We just see what happened differently. I have never said this might be wrong, just does not make sense to me.

So, is it fair that until we see this on the ITU website, and then the USAT website, it is possible their is still confusion?

I have yet to see them write they are using DL Elite rules, which again might be true.

I have yet to see what field size they are going to use, etc.

Makes for interesting thoughts.

Still amazed that only 40% on the poll are saying no, period.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I just don't care about the difference. I really don't. And I've seen breakaways in cycling helped or hindered by a train at a railroad crossing with less whining than this. It happens.

I'm starting to think that what people should do is just compare VO2max and FTP and skip the rest.

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The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

And this statement just says nothing is in stone.

"The technical committee, however, will continue to review the rules for age group races throughout the implementation process."

AGAIN, I am not saying this might not be the end result. But until we see what field size they are going to limit things to, this will really answer a lot of questions.
If it is small, like 100, multiple lap, cannot be lapped rule, etc, then I understand it is 100% DL elite rules for AGers. And if they and USAT say the existing
sprint NDL is dead, and the thousands that race it can find something else to spend their money on, then it is a slam dunk.

So, I hope Dan is working on getting more details from ITU and USAT.

I just cannot believe they would kill off the thousands that race sprint NDL, but if they do, guess I am glad I am doing it in 6 weeks.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Like I said, this is just a different set of rules/tactics everything. May not seem fair, and if that's the case, it's not going to change. It doesnt need to change. That's just apart of DL racing, and happens on the ITU circuit all the time. There have been plenty of flights/hotels/expenses covered for 1 athlete to domestique for another athlete, and it's occurred between guys not on the same federation. It really is just an different environment where anything goes essentiallly (assuming good sportsmanship obviously).

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

So, if 2016 age group worlds is DL, how is the qualifying going to work in the USA?

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''Sweeney - you can both crush your AG *and* cruise in dead last!! 😂 '' Murphy's Law

He got clarification.

So the question is, are you only doing this if you can ride your TT bike and draft, or are you going to buy a road bike?

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

If 2016 Sprint AG worlds is elite DL rules with a very very small field, I want to what USAT is going with Nationals Sprint?
Would they just kill NDL sprint since there is now WC anymore and lose thousand of racers?

So if the ITU can say what the field size limit is, that really shows the direction.

Now, could WC have both a NDL sprint, with larger number of folks, and a DL sprint with a small number?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Are you still okay with it if the pacing buddy is in a different field/wave? I.e., leisurely swim and then soft pedal until needed? Because that's what's going to happen.

I need to see what they are really doing first. If it is a small field, which implies no AG's, then no reason to buy a road bike since I would never
qualify.

I do have a very old road bike I used to race with when I first started. So depending on what happens, if I wanted to race and could compete, I would
just put it back together. (Last time I used it was commuting to work with my powercranks on it) No way am I spending a bunch of money on another bike. I spend WAY too much on this sport already. Am retired
so not one of the lucky folk who makes 160K per year in a job.

So, are you saying you think USAT and ITU will totally kill of NDL sprint, so USAT nationals in 2015 has no sprint NDL distance anymore?

Are you saying the new sprint will be Elite DL rules, super small field, which implies no need for Age Groups?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

As I've implied before if they have AG DL racing with waves all mix and matching, the "competitive fairness" will be out the window, whether athletes "intentional" cheat/draft off other waves or not. I'm a fan of 1 loop AG courses, not so much the multi-loop courses because that loop you have to keep only 1 wave on the course at a time to be "fair".

So as I said, there really are 2 options. 1 being the course that's 1 loop and waves go off roughly 30 mins. In that event, rarely will you see the type of teamwork your talking about. If said guy waited for his buddy in the next wave, all the others riding with that buddy get advantage as well, so it kinda defeats the purpose.

The 2nd option being doing ITU style crit course and then your going to run into issues because it's just going to take too long to get everyone through, and so you'll likely see waves riding with other waves.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

If they eliminate the NDL sprint in our sport and replace with a Sprint DL elite rules crit event with multiple laps, you will not have to worry about me showing up. I know way too many folks who have gotten hurt
racing like that so no thanks.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

But you'll do a DL Race that allows TT bikes with only having 5 min wave space timing with 300 people on a 3 loop bike course now?

You've actively spoken highly about that event countless times.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Yep, I have done the race and it is fine. It is not a crit race setup, IMO. It is not stacked with all top racers.

Why are you not giving your opinions on any of the questions I have asked you?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Just trying to wrap my head around the logistics of the first option, I agree it has to be a large time separation, but are we talking 10 plus waves like some races (some have 20+). Strictly broken by 5 year age groups, or larger spreads? First wave at 7 (oe heck, it's light at 6), you're talking hours to get through all the waves?

Doesn't it have to be the second option?

I didn't see this post.

To answer your questions.

No I don't think USAT will kill off the ND Sprint, but I do think ITU is killing it at their WC's. The reason why I don't think USAT will kill it off, is because they can still get enough people to do the race to justify the cost all the while still having an "national championship" race. I think USAT is going to hold 3 championships, or let me say, I think there will be 3 races that go down. DL Sprint, ND Sprint, ND Olympic. Just this year at Nationals there is going to be a "mixed team relay" race. So they can add any type of race they want at nationals.


Why do you think there will be no need for AG'ers if they do elite rules? They very well could do elite rules and have it for AG'ers, I'm not sure why you have implied 2 times in your post that if they did small fields it would imply no AG's. Again, there IS GOING TO BE AN AG DL RACE for World's. Whether the multi-loop course or a 1 loop bike course (my guess is being at worlds it'll be on the same course as the other races, just shorter laps) the Sprint will be DL for AG'ers. I def think it's going to be multi-looped, which at this point I cant wrap my head around how it works. It just has too many variables with wave starts. They have clarified it's no TT bikes. They wont come off that, but I think the actual development of the race is still very much in doubt. How the actual races will be divided up, I think still is an issue, along with 200 vs 75 person waves. 75 is the standard DL format, but that would mean roughly 25 waves if there really was ~2k people racing it. Of course I think at most you'll see is 600-800 doing the DL event, which means where does roughly 1k people's money go when they cut them out because they change formats.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Of course this is all solved if ITU says "oh we are having 3 races at World's; DL Sprint, ND Sprint, ND Olympic". Then all the problems would be solved because only the people that actually want to race DL would sign up and do it. IE, the actual field of athletes would be very high quality in that instance.

But their press release reads that the sprint race event is going from non draft to DL.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Fair options. Will see what USAT says.

I never said no need for AGer if they do elite rules, again why say things I did not say? I never said small fields mean no AGers, it could imply to me mo AG groupings like we have today. Again, all this just depends how they set it up. I have no idea what they will do. An AG DL race does not have to mean Age groups for racing. It could mean just by ability for non elites it seems.

I agree with a lot of your questions, no idea.

I cannot say what I would or would not do for racing until I see details. I supported the initial comments Dan got from ITU since it just made legal what so many of our races are doing today. With the new clarity, if it stays they way, so many other questions before I could make any decisions.

No question there is a DL AG sprint race 2016 worlds. How many folks. Whether any AG brackets like today, who knows.
There will be an Olympic NDL 2016 worlds.
Seems there would no longer be a NDL AG sprint at 2016 worlds.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep